The present fear of using water heater gave a new thought about the safety feature after the japanese couple were electrocuted. Is the water heater tank above the roof top or the wall mounted type is safe to use? Do they need periodical maintenance or checking by professionals? Lets dicuss.

both safe provided it is properly grounded with circuit breaker...

how often do u see accident like that?

tell u what it is more dangerous to drive than using a water heater

Im not very sure how this work .. My heater was the roof type tank wwter heater. I couldnt see the installation when they installed last time. Is there anyway that i could test it or i should inspect it by going up there?

I agree with you, the constant fear of being electrocuted while having shower is a fear that has been with me for sometime now. I too have been trying to figure out a way on how to avoid this. Sadly there's none, unless you go shower with a Bomba class boots.

Personally I have already heard of about 2 around this year, 1 case was a Malaysian & the other recent was 2 japanese nationality. Total up 4 people has died within this year with relations to water heater short circuit.

I believe regular maintenance such as removing dirt and sand from the internal pipes by reversing the water flow and testing of the circuit breaker button is very important & can help minimize issue. Other than that, it's really luck.

Maybe the manufacturers should put an estimated shelf life for each unit of water heater, so that we know when to change it and avoid being fried alive.

Agree with you that driving is even more dangerous than using a water heater.

Heard it over the radio this morning this can be prevented by checking the unit thru thing "ELCB". What is that may I ask because mine don't have these button.

I understand ELCB is obsolete, now all using RCCB/RCCD. Normally, RCCBs are located inside the DB. Older days, normally a separate ELCB was provided for each electrical heater, but now seldom see people practising.

according to the radio station this morning american consist of about 30 cases of electrocution per year.
actually this is very often also just that the news were not spread out like this japanese couple . i heard of this case many times already.

There is option beside electric heater.

You can use gas heater. It more save and safer.

Or solar heater which don't have heater type. Just sun and hot water.

Wow, that's a lot of cases bro.

True, media always select cases. I too believe there are more but not told as you said.

I wish I can, but cannot afford and also my condo dont allow... huhu... Unless I use my dapur to heat up and later mix with tap water.

Ha3 later you will hear people died due to explosion during bathing.. there is no way you can cheat death bro...

Final Destination meh.

During gas heater era, not much news I heard about gas explosion. Normally the leaking is very small. Rather a fire than explosion.

Gas heater have a safety valve. Which will shutdown when high pressure release. Even if a gas hose broken, the most is fire shut out. Because the gas valve limit the pressure. I saw this kind of situation before during makan steambot. Scary.

The most famous news using gas heater is suicide. Specially in HK. Even HK actress use gas heater for suicide.

Electrocution can be many things, not only instant water heating.

The was I remember was the Empire shopping mall.

types of water heater -
- tank type
must use external earth fault breaker at 10 or 30ma
suited for multi point use

- instant type
usually have built-in 10ma breaker
for 1 point only

- gas fired
risk of gas leak
widely used in other countries like taiwan, and yes explosions happens

- solar
have electric booster as well, when sun is low. same like tank type

That 1 using main piping gas. Where the regulator pressure is higher than the house tank type. If ventilation not enough like empire where mostly close up, the explosion will happen.

I don't trust much about the instant heater elcb. They use electronic type. Which are not reliable at all. I would rather install an additional elcb near to the heater. The main elcb is too far away. In case ....

Solar heater do have non electric type.

most of the new instant water heather is equip with ELCB

Yes but a lot owner still using until end. I suggest change it after using 8 years.

you can look at others but here we are focusing on this main issue that causes it. Water heater.

Not most but all. Not reliable.

ELCBs have some disadvantages:
They do not detect faults that don't pass current through the CPC to the earth rod.
They do not allow a single building system to be easily split into multiple sections with independent fault protection, because earthing systems are usually bonded to pipework.
They may be tripped by external voltages from something connected to the earthing system such as metal pipes, a TN-S earth or a TN-C-S combined neutral and earth.
As with RCDs, electrically leaky appliances such as some water heaters, washing machines and cookers may cause the ELCB to trip.
ELCBs introduce additional resistance and an additional point of failure into the earthing system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_leakage_circuit_breaker

my 2 weeks old Alpha water heater just kaput... damn.. better kaput than kena electrocuted i suppose

Alpha ? Ada case.

im using a tank type, you said must use external earth fault breaker.. usually how do i get to know the current one is at 10 or 30ma.. is it visible at the Circuit breaker station?

elcb is a generic term. as long as its current triggered is ok

my way of safe use;
i use a tank type
electrify/heat it up before use, then switch off during shower.

yes, malay guy got electrocuted before, saw in newspaper. using Alpha old brand.

holy sh*t! what should i do now? get it repaired or change it??

You can also use gas heater which is too safe if your bathroom so wide because I am also using gas heater which is not too costly & only one time installation..Mine suggestion to you to go for Gas heater...

Got warranty mah. Take it back for repair lah.

In this country, the gas era is over. It is just like trend here. And most of them don't no got gas heater too.

Mostly using elctrical heater. As it is cheaper and easy to install.

Because people here in this forum mostly marketing electrical, and solar only. And they don't sell.

Gas is still best bang for buck. And go for RINNAI.

I think the cons about gas heater is the installation. With the high price now from labour till parts, not cheap to install.

And the bad talk from the saleman about gas explosion. Which hardly I heard last time. But they don't tell you about electrocute.

dont feel safe... will always have that 'what if' feeling...

Haunting you the news?

Meanwhile, the japanese couple that dies from electrucuted, stay at that block which happen many strange ppl died case.

--> Haunted Block

did you all read the newspaper today? they advised consumer to constantly check the ELCB every time or even monthly... crazy shit... we werent' told of this thing in the manual at all. And the hassle of checking and trauma everytime using water heater is like after watching Jaws the movie now. going to shower, check first..

safest is to use solar powered water heater. My house is using it. It's been raining a lot lately and the sun is hardly out. But we still get enough warm water for shower and haven't had the need to switch on the electric heater. Water is not hot as during hot days but still warm enough to take a shower.

isn't electrocution from an instant water heater rather difficult cos all external parts are plastic, unless messing with it while in the showering

Actually it been longtime about elcb checking news. I think the manual did write a button to push at the heater to test the elcb function or not. Monthly checking is recommend.

Just ppl don't pay attention till to late.

Your tank still have the electric heater in it. Parts that seldom use and longtime no use is more danger when 1 day you ON it.

It is the showering water and your ground feet.

i on it and heat up the water for a while. then i switch off and take a shower. How dangerous can it be?
maybe I need to worry about falling off the bed as well.

the problem starts at the inside. Cold water runs through a narrow pipe with an electric heating element heating up
this pipe giving you that instant heated water. So imagine if the heating element is leaking electricity to the water.....

btw because the water is going thru narrow pipes, the water flow rate is very low. some have buildin pumps which increases the water
pressure but you still get a rather poor flow rate. I was quite surprised when some of these instant heaters even came out with rain shower type of head.

This post has been edited by idoblu: Sep 11 2013, 11:59 AM

how bout water heater tank, does it has ELCB ?

so if faster water flow rate can prevent electrocution? like external water pump?

what if stand on rubber mat in shower and use water pump?

i suppose best to use bath tub

bro, flow rate is another topic. nothing to do with electrocution
sorry if i confused you

IMPORTANT
· All plumbing works must be completed and heater tank filled with water before proceeding to electrical connections. This will prevent any damage to the appliance.
· Ensure that the electrical supply is single-phase at 220 to 240 Va.c.
· This appliance must be permanently earthed. The use of Plug & Socket is not recommended.
· It is recommended to install an approved current operated type Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker (ELCB) or Residual Current Circuit Breaker (RCCB) of 10mA sensitivity and higher than rated current (Refer to table).
· It is recommended to install an approved type Miniature Circuit Breaker (MCB) or Molded Case Circuit Breaker (MCCB) of higher than appliance rated current (Refer to table).
· Ensure that the wiring can supply the necessary amperage (Refer to table).
· This appliance must be permanently connected to the electrical supply through a Double Pole Linked Switch above rated current (Refer to table) and having contact separation of at least 3mm in all poles incorporated in the fixed wiring. The switch must be out of reach from user in the bathroom.
· Do not share the electrical supply with other appliances.

Me just replaced my Panasonic WH (10years old)... recently... to Joven WH with rain shower... I didnt buy those with pump coz I have redo the piping so that the WH is using direct water instead. Good news is good pressure... bad news is no water supply no hot water la...

The main thing is brand... most of the time I see those case happened is when they use dunno what type of china made brands... better to use a branded WH...

The water is the electrical transfer medium. The electrucute doesn't neccassary coming from the shower that you use. It can come from anybody that using the water.

I m not sure about this. Weikee is using storage tank. Maybe he can answer you. Additional elcb for safety perhaps?

Panasonic is more reliable. Why choose joven? Branded?

it doesnt have its own but your house already has one, just make sure it has the required ratings



yup just follow the instructions that you posted

This post has been edited by idoblu: Sep 11 2013, 12:32 PM

even if heater element leaks electricity, the water can't conduct electricity as it breaks up into drops as it comes out of the showerhead and won't create a circuit

and if all external parts are plastic/non-conductive then should be ok

'dying' to know what is the brand of the water heater!!

no worry on all instant water sold at reputable shops........to avoid this incidence...........


1) make sure you hire a good electrician and also confirm with your own eyes that he join the EARTH WIRE correctly at the heater.

2) If your home or rented unit is more than 10 years of age............pls change the electrical fuse at the fuse box.........esp. the main fuse otherwise in case of emergency the main fuse will not trip !
Better still.......change all fuses there......cost RM5.00 per unit......main fuse cost more............the expensive part will be the electrician's labour charges...........

This will prevent unnecessary accidents........

All storage heater piping will be earth. Make sure house earth cable are working. I earth all my ss piping.

Even solar can be dangerous if electric leak. Imagine a live wires touches the steel / copper pipe. These can happen when rats bit the cables and it touches the pipes.

You forget your hand holding the shower head which inside is a continue water flowing. While your hand and body is wet.

And the water is not really breakup as what you see in the rain. Don't forget, the flow rate is higher than the rain outside. This is not I just talk kok. I did use a fast speed camera to record the water flowing from the shower.

Your curiosity is haunting you.

Storage tank have earth wires.

The key is to have your house earth wire working. Without Earth is without protection.

Haha... like that also can. I got no comment already.

Haha... like that also can. I got no comment already.

Educate ppl abit lah.

ya lah

If so worried about it, permanently disconnect electric supply to the unit. Oh wait ... what if lightning strike the unit ... and you are taking a shower when that happens.
Ohh dear ... life is full of worries. hahahaha

There is a dangerous your elcb won't trip if you earth your piping. Piping is consider a conductor to earth. Cause piping is run to ground too.

If the current travel to pipe instead to elcb, your elcb won't detect current fault.

May i know how to check earth wire working?

I seen all instant water heater has change to gray rubber piping instead of aluminium.

Press ELCB button. If it trips, it's working.

How about storage tank?

I assume they too have a button to test. I am not sure, I don't use storage heaters.

so you're saying shower water from the shower head will be in continuous form to allow electricity to flow through, just like a solid conductor?

It is a pvc pipe which don't conduct electricity. What weikee earthing is SS pipe.

sorry im a noob here.. how do i know if the house earth wire is working?

We been using Joven at my old hse last time... the new hse we all replace it with Panasonic... serves us well but not as good as Joven... Joven is also a good brand.

dont use hot water heater lar.. we are in malaysia lar so cold meh our weather? bath cold water gooding.. can increase body metabolism .. burn fat... budak budak nowadays so pampered, in my grandpapa time bath early morning from teligi siok woh.. or so they tell me..

No need to pampered, no astro, no internet, no smart phone, no need electicity.. Last time without all these also can survived...

All there are Standard of living..don't have won't die ma... So go without it lo

Good idea turning back can save earth too.

cold bath bad for liver. mampus cepat

You guys are far from topic. Go back to your post.

Anyway, I understand abit why the couple get electrucute and the elcb don't trip. Don't think got earth wire problem with their heater.

do you think what the main problem?

Both the water heater elcb and house main elcb were not working.

mind to explain... i also don't think have earth wire problem.. nowadays all water heater promised of ELCB protection. its not like they are gonna use some 80s electrical appliances. look at mont kiara condo, what time was it built.. 90s .. it's already using the safe protection water heater. What i hate about malaysian news reporting is that they don't go and find out deeper and investigate the cause and publish out for public awreness unlike US 60 minutes news..

i saw Seers water heater (standalone or rooftop) that claims u won't get electrocuted, is that true? and is the heating speed as efficient as Joven/Panasonic?

Is there other options than Seers that guarantee won't get electrocuted? I very kiasi ok

From my bullshit analyses, the earth wire should have connection.

1) All the heater have a earth fault light that tell you earth wire connection is ok or not. So I guess the earth wire is not a problem.

2) There is 2 device to protect from the DB and the heater itself. Is it that consequences, 2 device spoil
at the same time? This is not Final Destination movie. It should be either 1 will do the job to trip. But why both don't trip ?

So it is probably the current didn't go through the E wire when the heater is leaking. Both device didn't sense the current from the E wire. That is why it didn't trip.

The ELCB is an outdate device. It will only trip when sense current on the E wire. So what about in this scenario

1) When the current leak to your body than to ground? It is not leaking to E wire? This is probably what happen to the japanese couple.

2) When the E wire broken or disconnect?

3) When secondary ground in the same place? Example a pipe is connect with the E wire. Pipe also run into ground and become earth rod. If current go through the pipe to the ground, ELCB won't be able to sense it.

Our home now should be using RCD/RCCB instead of ELCB. If any of your home still using ELCB, better change to RCD/RCCB. In additional, you can install another 1 near your heater. Don't trust your heater ELCB. It make of electronic which is not reliable when age.

Apologize for my kid drawing.

I think if the installer install properly won't happen like this. BTW your kid drawing very nice.

If the resistance level if earth are higher than the water path electron will flow via less resistance.

The other possibility is the instance water heater are leaking, and the leak flow from live to water and to the human body while earth could be high resistance.

High rise building earth have one issue, high resistance if not maintain.

This post has been edited by weikee: Sep 13 2013, 11:30 AM

I gave back most of my E&E knowledge to the collegue. Here some good slide for reference.

http://fyi.uwex.edu/mrec/files/2011/04/W4....ng-MREC2010.pdf

http://www.suparule.com/docs/earth_ground_...g_technique.pdf

If the leaking to both side. Human and the E wire. Than the current will choose the easy way to travel.

But what about leaking to body. But no nothing leaking to E wire? Somehow inside the heater, the parts didn't get protect from earth side.

Okay, from the scientific theory of it, this invention is failed to me. All water heaters are not safe no matter what Protection is used.As long s current is live and you are holding the hose that conduct electricity is dangerous especially when water n electricity is in the bathroom. I would assume the water tank unit and solar power unit is safer than the one in the bathroom with you.

The RCD/RCCB should be able to protect this kind of problem. Incase E wire doesn't do the job. All the house now should using RCD/RCCB. Try check your DB box that you always call ELCB.

I m using istant water heater. And I knew I cannot rely on the heater elcb. That left my house just 1 device to protect from the DB box. So I install another RCD in the bathroom ontop the heater.

Here is the RCD device that I install ontop the heater inside the bathroom. It exactly for prevent electrocution and suitable for bathroom which wet enviroment. Can be use for anything.

Car build with 7 airbags will have death cases. Everythings are not 100% safe.

For the Instant Water heater design point of view, earth / ground have to work. If grounding have higher resistance compare to the the water, live current will go to the water and not earth.

use storage can install this unit too?

Storage heater or solar heater that have heater element in it is still using electric. 101 of posibility there to went wrong. Install an additional safety devide to protect yourself.

Safety awareness is very important. I m not an expect and I don't know whatelse will went wrong.

of course old technology started without air bag than 2 air bags, side air bags and moving on to reinforce steel at the side etc etc.. but what improvement can be made by manufacturer that makes the difference since we are now getting more experience from past cases all over the world. I still see ELCB water heater in the market and how sales person boast about the protection which are not. That's y i think it is fail totally if you are the inventor. As inventor, this is the thing we should not be proud of especially when an infant is left without a mom and dad.

This post has been edited by Patagoniaranger: Sep 13 2013, 04:18 PM