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 Is water heater safe to use?

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stevie8
post Sep 12 2013, 12:57 PM

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QUOTE(petlu28 @ Sep 12 2013, 11:14 AM)
do you think what the main problem?  hmm.gif  hmm.gif
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Both the water heater elcb and house main elcb were not working.
stevie8
post Sep 18 2013, 10:53 AM

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QUOTE(petlu28 @ Sep 17 2013, 09:17 AM)
Not all can afford using tank water heater.
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Storage tank can explode!!!
stevie8
post Sep 18 2013, 11:46 AM

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QUOTE(petlu28 @ Sep 18 2013, 11:26 AM)
so what your advise can give?
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The heater comes with safety devices. Frequent maintenance is the answer.
stevie8
post Sep 18 2013, 11:51 AM

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From a web site:

What Causes Water Heater Explosions?

There are two common ways a water heater can create a fire/explosion and become a dangerous bomb in your Atlanta-area home.

Gas leak – If gas is leaking in or around your water heater, the small ignition flame can ignite the gas, causing a catastrophic explosion.
Water pressure – As water is heated, pressure builds inside the tank. Normally, your water heater shuts off or releases the built-up pressure through a safety valve. However if these safety mechanisms fail, the pressure can mount until the tank eventually gives way.
- See more at: http://www.coolray.com/blog/article/preven...h.1WhZupdc.dpuf

This post has been edited by stevie8: Sep 18 2013, 11:52 AM
stevie8
post Sep 18 2013, 11:57 AM

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For instant water heater just buy a RCD adaptor, cheap and safe solution.

Attached Image

Choose 30mA. Never choose more than 100mA. This means a leak or imbalance of 100mA will cut off the circuit or flow of current. 100mA wont kill you.

With this RCD adaptor you have triple protection:

1. Your house main RCD
2. Your heater ELCB
3. This RCD adaptor

Like the ELCB of your heater and your home RCD, you can test the adaptor any time if it is working fine.

This post has been edited by stevie8: Sep 18 2013, 12:02 PM
stevie8
post Sep 18 2013, 12:08 PM

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This will look neat. Come with fuse as RCD will not trip when there is a overload of current. The fuse is a overload safety point.
Attached Image

You can use this as a switch. Press the reset (on) as you go into the bathroom taking shower. Out of bathroom finished showering press the test button(off). In a way you are testing it every time you come out of your shower, and will never forget to test.

This post has been edited by stevie8: Sep 18 2013, 12:12 PM
stevie8
post Sep 18 2013, 12:58 PM

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QUOTE(petlu28 @ Sep 18 2013, 12:23 PM)
can suggest which one suitable for storage?
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The wall mounting type. Not the adapter type. But more importantly test the safety valves regularly.
stevie8
post Sep 18 2013, 07:24 PM

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QUOTE(petlu28 @ Sep 18 2013, 01:58 PM)
I found out this don't know suitable or not. But price not cheap.

http://my.element14.com/timeguard/tfp10wl/...hite/dp/1642925
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Of course these things are not cheap that is why instant water heaters dont come with it but the cheaper ELCB. The adapter type around RM100.
stevie8
post Sep 18 2013, 07:35 PM

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QUOTE(petlu28 @ Sep 18 2013, 01:35 PM)
Thanks your advise. That means each time when go bathroom press it before take bath right?
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Exactly! But the correct way is test the RCD and then press reset before going for shower. But that is too troblesome. It is ok to do the otherway around that you test after shower and you know the last time you tested it was yesterday. As you can also see, the instant water heater that comes with ELCB, just ask how yourself often you test it? Once a month, once a year? For other members of the family they dont even know what the purpose of these test button and dont know how to reset where the level/button is usually hidden at the bottom and you use your wet hand to reset???!!!! So go get one lah, RM100 or RM200 for peace of mind than to be on the news one day, no longer japanese couple but malaysian.

You see why 2 died? Cause one tried to save the other but dont know about electricity. The first one could be dead few minutes and motionless then the other one discovered him/her and go touch her/him and died!!! It is 2 lives, not just one and could be 3 could be whole family members all go and touch one after another!!!!
stevie8
post Sep 18 2013, 08:08 PM

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QUOTE(duckaton @ Sep 18 2013, 03:15 PM)
seriously?
any known cases or simply say oni...
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Aiyo where got simply say one? So irresponsible meh, me?

One explosion the whole brick wall came down!!! Many years ago. That is why i choose solar, before that i was selling instant water heater came with ELCB type.
stevie8
post Sep 18 2013, 08:14 PM

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QUOTE(Sydneguy @ Sep 18 2013, 04:08 PM)
What a load of BS.

In Australia Every home (about 10 million) has a hot water storage heater (gas or electric powered) they are left on all the time 24/7 365 (because they are insulated and super efficient, 2-3 times lower operating cost then Malaysian system of instant water heater).

Out of those 10 million units, how many Exloped during last 10 yrs ZERO!

Safety valves never fail, they are designed to be failsafe, ie if it stops working it will release the pressure.
If heating function never fails to cut off. Again it is design to be failsafe.
It doesn't mater if you don't turn it off, they are designed to be left on continuously. Steam does not buildup casueing rise in pressure.
How do I know this? I am an Engineer and I once worked for a company that manufacturers water heater tanks.
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Instant water heaters dont work in cold countries like australia that has winter. Instant water heater can only bring up temp by few degrees, 10 to 20 max. How to bring a near freezing cold water from 0 or 10 to 40 degress C?
stevie8
post Sep 18 2013, 08:35 PM

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QUOTE(Sydneguy @ Sep 18 2013, 04:08 PM)
What a load of BS.

In Australia Every home (about 10 million) has a hot water storage heater (gas or electric powered) they are left on all the time 24/7 365 (because they are insulated and super efficient, 2-3 times lower operating cost then Malaysian system of instant water heater).

Out of those 10 million units, how many Exloped during last 10 yrs ZERO!

Safety valves never fail, they are designed to be failsafe, ie if it stops working it will release the pressure.
If heating function never fails to cut off. Again it is design to be failsafe.
It doesn't mater if you don't turn it off, they are designed to be left on continuously. Steam does not buildup casueing rise in pressure.
How do I know this? I am an Engineer and I once worked for a company that manufacturers water heater tanks.
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Nothing never failed lor. They are mostly spring operated. Spring can get stuck, cant they?

Engineer you are sold/convinced by your water heater tanks boss/company the tank are safe. No offence. I like to believe you that will be a big relieve as my solar tank also has relieve valve and I was told to change as it has aged. Why change when it is designed to failsafe? Kindly explain in greater details of course in English not engineering terms.
stevie8
post Sep 18 2013, 08:44 PM

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I just googled pressure relief valve failure and this is a site that study, test and analyse PRV failure rate

http://www.exida.com/articles/Mechanical%2...%20Released.pdf

It is too complicated to read but here is a statement,

"In this report we describe the results of a FMEDA analysis of a particular PRV
to determine the useful-life failure rate of the fail-to-open condition. (The fail-toopen condition occurs when a PRV remains closed when test pressures (TP)
reach or exceed 1.5 times the PRV set pressure.) "


So PRV did fail otherwise why got such study?
stevie8
post Sep 18 2013, 10:30 PM

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There are many possibility in real world environment that the spring get jammed which the test method did not take into consideration where environment are controlled. The spring can get jammed simply with accumulation of sands (user of sand filter), debris from rusted GI pipe, fittings and tap parts worn out may it be rubber or plastic and deform spring or housing were used that passed QC and when at consumers end mechanical it gets dislocated. The accumulation over time became a lump and jammed the springs and many other possibilities. My argument is man made things will still fail over time unlike nature like the sun will never fail to rise every morning from east or rather the earth will never fail to turn. However, am not saying it has to be 100%, if we can have 99.99% one of 10 thousand then it is considered perfect/pure like pure gold 99.9% one of one thousand.

Leaking is a failsafe acceptable but what you engineers do to make sure it will not get stuck cannot open? How? can explain more, please?
stevie8
post Sep 18 2013, 11:31 PM

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Still how it gets jammed?
stevie8
post Sep 19 2013, 11:40 AM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Sep 19 2013, 10:56 AM)
This is quite similar to air compressor safety valve built up method.

Air-compressor safety valve also not contact with water, and protected from outside dirt, yet there is a failed to open safety valve in real life usage.

Yes, it has a low chance to fail like 0.000000001%, but totally failsafe?
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exactly failsafe it is, but the problem is our engineer cant explain why some jammed.
stevie8
post Sep 19 2013, 12:09 PM

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QUOTE(Sydneguy @ Sep 18 2013, 11:17 PM)
You wrongly assume the spring is inside the valve and in contact with the water, sand/rust etc, it is actually outside and protected from such contaminants.

they generally look like this http://content.answcdn.com/main/content/im...97800FG0010.gif
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Whether the spring is outside of water, overtime water get in to the bad diaphram and leaking valve to the spring compartment. With so much of minerals it can cause the spring to fail. here is the pictures:
Attached Image Attached Image


stevie8
post Sep 19 2013, 12:44 PM

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QUOTE(weikee @ Sep 19 2013, 10:09 AM)
Just like car radiator cap, you don't read anywhere it jammed and cause hose burst. you read more of the cap leak
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Radiator cap problem struck closed mainly due to the expanded rubber seal and get stuck on the radiator cap neck. This add to the extra pressure needed to push the spring up by xxx psi till your hose give way and burst. If you want to save money RM10 to RM25 for the cap you can trim the protruding rubber, it works.

This post has been edited by stevie8: Sep 19 2013, 12:46 PM
stevie8
post Sep 21 2013, 09:23 PM

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QUOTE(3scamry @ Sep 19 2013, 12:41 PM)
Can we assume whether Our Electrical System is protected against Earth Protection or not by only Pressing ELCB Test Switch?

Checking the health of the ELCB is simple and you can do it easily by pressing TEST Push Button Switch of ELCB. The test push-button will test whether the ELCB unit is working properly or not. Can we assume that If ELCB is Trip after Pressing TEST Switch of ELCB than your system is protected against earth protection? Then you are wrong.

The test facility provided on the home ELCB will only confirm the health of the ELCB unit, but that test does not confirm that the ELCB will trip when an electric shock hazard does occur. It is a really sad fact that all the while this misunderstanding has left many homes totally unprotected from the risk of electric shocks.

This brings us or alarming us to think over second basic requirement for earth protection. The second requirement for the proper operation of a home shock protection system is electrical grounding.
We can assume that the ELCB is the brain for the shock protection, and the grounding as the backbone. Therefore, without a functional grounding (Proper Earthing of Electrical System) there is totally no protection against electrical shocks in your house even if  You have installed ELCB and its TEST switch show proper result. Looking after the ELCB alone is not enough. The electrical Earthing system must also be in good working order for the shock protection system to work. In addition to routine inspections that should be done by the qualified electrician, this grounding should preferably be inspected regularly at shorter intervals by the homeowner and need to pour Water in Earthing Pit at Regular interval of Time to minimize Earth Resistance.

An earthing test needs to be done to check on the ground earth cable.

Ref : http://electricalnotes.wordpress.com/2011/...f-elcb-and-rcb/
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You are talking about ELCB, What about RCB? Nowadays we use RCB, no more ELCB.
stevie8
post Dec 13 2013, 10:38 PM

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QUOTE(Ho Sun Sun @ Dec 13 2013, 05:58 PM)
+1

That's what happened to my case.

I had a 10yrs old plus panasonic instant water heater (with the digital screen type), for the past ten years quite frequent I used to test the ELCB by pressing the button, it did trip the circuit n seemed working like a champ.

Months ago, while showering, a loud 'pop' sound heard, i was shocked to see the unit 'exploded', white smoke came out from the part of the wire point. Imagine the toilet filled with white thick smoke. The plastic cover around that wire-in area went black.

The pana technician who came over to check told me it's the bad wiring caused the mini explosion, the wire was melted, i.e. overload for a prolong period, not sudden overload.

So, I bought a Alpha Smart 18i instant water heater to replace the pana.

This 18i came with this Auto ELCB checking feature, so everytime the heater switch is turned on the system ll go thru a few seconds checking routine, if the result is fine, the row of green led ll light up indicating the ELCB is functioning.

This 18i also came with something "Not Available" in the old Pana, known as "LED Line Fault Indicator". So if this led is Red meaning something wrong with the wiring connection to the unit.

After the technician carefully connected all three wires to the 18i and turned on the unit for testing, the unit auto check the ELCB for few seconds, all green led light up, meaning it's working fine. The water also heated nicely. But the "Line Fault indicator" led is Red color! The technician told me if the wires r connected wrongly the water wouldn't have heated. Sound logic also.

But thank god he's willing to re-connect all 3 wires again just to double check. Well, same thing happened. The line fault indicator still light up in RED.  sweat.gif

Then he stepped out the bathroom, opened up the Heater Switch on the wall right outside the bathroom, believe it or not, he discovered the Earth wire from the bathroom heater to the Switch was NOT connected to the switch at all! That's why the 18i line fault indicator showing RED.

Okie, why would the Earth wire not connected to the heater switch? The reason was the Earth wire from the wall is TOO short to reach the Earth connector on the switch. Bcoz not every Switch's connector placement r the same. The technician got me another Switch that has the Earth connector 'nearer' to the short earth wire, and after some careful adjustment only he managed to connect all three wires to the switch properly.

I m lucky I chose the 18i that came with an effective line fault detection, else I will never know the so called Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker ELCB is for 'show' only, the god damn Earth wire is not even ground at all !!

user posted image

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I think this is a must-have safety feature on top of the better-than-nothing ELCB feature.
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I bought Rubine IA series with same self checking feature and DC pump as a gift to a friend. Not only LED indicator auto check but also it beeps...and also claimed to be the first on this. Still better to have additional RCD switch.

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