I believe that people are doing Actuarial Science for the wrong reasons. I hope that this post will actually shatter the disillusionment that people have. Don’t get me wrong, I am not trying to discourage people to pursue this challenging course, its challenge being its ultimate reward. However, it is disheartening to see so many people get into this course and ending up not being qualified actuaries, because they fail to understand what this course is all about.
First and foremost, my qualifications: I have wanted to do Actuarial Science since I was in Form 4. In college, I did my research and I have looked at the qualifications provided in the UK, US, Australia and Malaysia. I have now finished my final year in Actuarial Science in the UK. I have interned in an insurance company in Malaysia as well as in my current location. And I have been in your shoes before.

To get the ball rolling, here are some misconceptions that need to be cleared up:

1. I want to do Actuarial Science because I like Math.
This is the biggest misconception that people have about Actuarial Science. In actual fact, a good knowledge of Mathematics is necessary, but a great knowledge is not. In the UK, the first 8 professional papers are somewhat Maths-based, but the tougher papers at the end are all written papers, which require a good command of English, a good knowledge of the insurance industry and good critical thinking skills. Throughout my course, the most difficult branch of Maths we did was Calculus and Linear Algebra, and that is not saying much. When you do start working, you will realise that the only Math you need are mostly addition and subtraction. Computer Programming will be the most important skill you will ever need. And to all of those who says that they need Further Math in their A-Levels, I did Math, Economics and Law. If you like Math, do a Mathematics degree.

2. I want to do Actuarial Science because the pay is good.
True, we have one of the highest starting salaries in the business world. Not by much though. The thing is, a qualified actuary does earn a lot. But to get that qualification, one has to pass professional papers, and those are not easy by a mile. The average time it takes to pass all your papers in Malaysia is around 6 years, depending on how good you are. (Some do take more than 10 years) And truth be told, all other professions will be able to earn a satisfactory remuneration within 10 years. If you want the money, go into Investment Banking. In a magazine which I have read, in business, while all other financial workers are paying off their mortgage for their first house, Investment Bankers are buying their second home.

3. I can pass all my professional exams if I work hard enough.
I want to believe this. I really do want to believe this. But with only 50 qualified actuaries in Malaysia, doesn’t it make you doubt that the only reason people are failing is because of a lack of effort? Studying is easy enough. Working is easy enough. Studying while working is not. While I was working in Malaysia, a colleague of mine works from 9 to 7 everyday, if he is lucky. On his way to and back from work, he studies on the LRT. If there is overtime, he will need to stay back and continue working. On weekends, he studies. At night, after being thoroughly exhausted at work, he studies. And while doing all these, he needs to find time for his girlfriend, family and friends. Now, ask yourself this: can you picture yourself doing that for a year? 3 years? 10 years?

I am really glad I chose this course. I know I would spend half my time working staring in a computer at spreadsheets. I know it will be a hard few years in front of me. I also know that I want nothing more than to qualify as a professional actuary, as I do love what I do very much. But I wished I knew what I was in for before I made the decision. And I do hope that people who read this will have the ability to make an informed decision about the course that is Actuarial Science.

Good effort on opening this thread to clearify what exactly Actuary profession is. I also want to become actuary. I think why malaysia has only 50 actuary maybe due to the paid in malaysia not as attractive as western countries. If I am a (qualified) actuary someday, I will rather go to UK/US look for higher pay (I think at least GP2000). Another reason is the facility/ opportunity(eg, internship) in Malaysia is very little too, only a few institutions are offering actuarial science and most of them aren't able to gain examption in their course, they rather produce the degree in actuarial science rather than train an actuary.

I also have done my research on it. Since you have been studying AS and now working, so I may need your opinion/advise. I'm going to do Maths & Econs degree in NTU coming this august. My formal plan was go into NTU's business and major in AS to gain exemptions but they failed to offer me the course. So I change my plan by do self-study & register examination either during school time or after graduation with degree in maths & econs. I know my life is gonna be very tough, so may i ask you that is this degree relevant to actuarial science?

Actually I still doubt myself am I really like AS or rather maths. So, can you briefly describe what tasks or problems usually an Actuary will deal? What is the most important responsibly /role as an Actuary? Lastly, may i know why you still choose to become an actuary since you have realized that it is not fully maths?

This post has been edited by zidanedagger: May 23 2009, 09:18 AM

wow, that shed some light to me. Mind telling me what was your starting salary?

I don't know anyone in the actuarial field, but I know ppl in investment banking and even though they make boat loads of money they work almost non-stop and have pretty much no social life. There was 1 fella in local Citibank: very high 5-figure salary, company car (BMW 5-series), company house (swanky penthouse) but work 6.5 days a week almost full day chasing US and local market. And most of them engage in risky behavior to de-stress (smoke, drink, sex etc).

So don't just make your career decision based on salary. It's a mistake most ppl (including myself) make.

Cks2k2 are you in actuarial field?

Then what is u guys opinion for Civil Engineering field? Is it a good field to join in and does it got a bright future?

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Added on May 23, 2009, 10:18 amThen what is u guys opinion for Civil Engineering field? Is it a good field to join in and does it got a bright future?

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Added on May 23, 2009, 10:18 amThen what is u guys opinion for Civil Engineering field? Is it a good field to join in and does it got a bright future?

This post has been edited by yunchee: May 23 2009, 10:18 AM

Very useful post. Is it true that one insurance company only will hire one actuarist?

yunchee go make ur own post...

I believe it is true. On the other hand, although company only need 1 Actuary ( a lot of people mistaken that actuarial profession is actua + rist, even my english teacher say I'm wrong but in fact there is no actuarist word in dictionary and actuary is a special term for actuarial profession) but they still employ fresh graduate and train them for future replacement or send them to other branches. This mostly can see in those western countries but not in Malaysia.

This also applies for engineering.Most of my maths now are still based on basic maths.

And in real life applications,computers do all the dirty job for you.Computer programming is important,IMO.

Great post, hope the mods can pin this up as I do see a lot of people having misconceptions. (including myself for the 3rd one.)

Just want to ask one (couples of) things.
Actuaries do need communication skill don't they?
And often they are offered such high salaries are due to their position who can make crucial decision, right?

Also, it seems that there are more and more people with AS degree venturing other fields for risk managing task. What's your opinion on this?

This post has been edited by tanjinjack: May 23 2009, 12:22 PM

Nice thread, I chose not to go through with this field of study because of all 3 reasons.
There has to be a reason why there are so few qualified actuaries in Malaysia, furthermore with the recent publicity this profession has garnered, there has been a drastic influx of students taking up this major, I'd say difficult competition in the future, plus the cut-off rate is rather cruel if you know what I mean. Also I notice several school teachers of mine holding actuarial science degrees and I wonder what happen?

Actuaries need a good communication skill.
IMO Yes, why they offerred well salary because of their unique critical thinking skill, combination of knowledge(finance, insurance, maths, econs & risks) & ability to analysis risks with a wide range of factors.
IMO also the ability to determine the correct factors is far more important than your ability to calculate where calculation is just a small part of the whole project & assume that you already master them. (I need TS to clearify me whether my statement correct or not)
I only heard a lot of AS degree holder in Malaysia and most of them ended up not doing AS instead go to financial industry. Whether they are doing risk management or not I'm not so sure.

This post has been edited by zidanedagger: May 23 2009, 12:38 PM

I heard from somewhere, most Malaysian actuaries, despite being Fellows, do not work in Malaysia, and hence is not kept in record in ASM.

Okay. Thanks for the info.

I'm going to try to answer your questions. First and foremost, a degree in Actuarial Science is not necessary for a career in Actuarial Science. The only reason why people choose to do a degree in Actuarial Science is because they want exemptions from professional papers and want a leg up in them. However, I know for a fact that UK companies do not specifically employ students who did Actuarial Science - they hire people who have any Mathematical background. This is because the papers which you get exemptions from (CT1 - 8) are not difficult. In fact, CT7, the economics paper is just a simpler version of the A Levels Economics Paper! I know people who complete their CTs in a year and a half worth of studying, without any exemptions. One more problem I encounter when having a degree in Actuarial Science is that you pigeon hole yourself into that profession. It doesn't allow you to diversify into many other financial branches as it is so specialised in its own way, and that might be hard for a person who wants to find a job which is not actuarial-related in the future. Truth be told, I applied to do Mathematics in Cambridge as well, and if I had gotten the offer, would have accepted it straightaway.

It is good that you are trying to find out that if it is Maths that you like, or is it AS. Actuary's main industry is insurance. They are risk managers, they try to maintain the solvency of the company by managing the risk effectively. In a nutshell, the work that an actuary does in insurance can be divided into two - Pricing and Valuation. In Pricing, actuaries have to price insurance products so that the company will make a profit. This is not as easy as it sounds because the way insurance works, the company only suffers a loss in the future, and it is up to an actuary to price the product in a way that it is improbable for the company to go bankrupt anytime in the future. That is why we have projections and forecasts. In Valuation, actuaries need to take the premiums that people pay to invest in the best possible assets. This is necessary for the company to make a profit, because many products only allow to break-even, and it is up to the actuary to find the most valuable financial assets to invest in. There are consultant and contractor actuaries as well. They move from company to company advising insurance companies on how best to price their products, how they value their products, how they meet regulation, etc... They are one of the most well-paid people in the field. An actuary can become Chief Financial Officer and eventually CEO of a company. The fact is that insurance companies need us. We are the experts when it comes to the financial matters of an insurance firm.
Do let me know if you require more information.

I like the work. I like the challenge. I like the fact that I have different stuff thrown at me everyday. Sometimes, it does come to a point when I ask myself if it is worth it, especially having to come back from work and put myself in front of books. But I genuinely love the job I am given, and I really don't see myself doing anything else. I think it is the interest that keeps me here, and the fact that I do like applying Mathematics in practical business problems that helps me maintain my interest in the field. Plus, the fact that once I qualify, I'll get a FIA behind my name, which is pretty cool.

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Added on May 23, 2009, 5:04 pmNo, that is not true. If that were true, we will be out of work in a few years time, when all the young guns come and take over our positions.

Back in Malaysia, due to the low pass rates, there are usually around 1 - 2 qualified actuaries and many actuarial students in each company. I believe that AIA has around 10 qualified actuaries. In the UK, my team alone had 6 qualifed actuaries. And we were only one really really small part of the company, which I believe had around 60 qualified actuaries alone.

Actuaries have the highest turnover I have ever seen. This is because they are so demanded that they just pretty much move from company to company in search of higher pay.

This post has been edited by monkeyseemonkeydo: May 23 2009, 05:04 PM

For someone who aren't too sure whether they will like this profession or not, would you advise them to do accountancy instead? Since a good accountant would need the same important qualities like analytical ability, critical thinking & communication when they move into management. And many too ended up as CEO aka big bucks. And it is a LOT more flexible when it comes to employment.

Good point, communication skills is one of the most valued commodity in the actuarial world. This is because what we do in the field is so technical, that normal people will never be able to understand it. Thats is why, we need good communication to be able to present our work in laymen form to higher management. In fact, two of the UK institute papers are based around communication as the Institute has realised how important this skill is to the field. And that is why, I do stress that having a good command of English is necessary to succeed in the actuarial world.

In my opinion, the reason why more and more people with AS degree are venturing into other fields is because they cannot cope with the exams pressure and have decided that they do not want to be an actuary. However, with a degree, we do know how to manage any financial risk, and that is probably why people venture into risk management, which is extremely big now, due to the credit crisis. But bear in mind, that not all companies provide study support to these graduates, and they will most likely end up as risk managers, not actuaries.

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Added on May 23, 2009, 5:23 pmI believe that if someone is not too sure whether they like this profession, they should do more research, talk to some actuaries and go do an internship. The work of an actuary and an accountant is so different that it is hard to compare them both on an equal footing. It all boils down to the individual, I guess. I personally never saw myself as an accountant, hence the choice was easy. I do agree though that when an accountant moves to management, he would need the same qualities, however, the question is, would you like the work thrown at you before you become senior management?

I'm going to be very biased now, and say that it is true that accountants do have more flexibility, but so do actuaries. The fact that qualified accountants are a dime a dozen, is probably gonna make competition tough. Actuaries are elite.

This post has been edited by monkeyseemonkeydo: May 23 2009, 05:23 PM

serious, this post should be pinned. Cleared lots of stuff for me.

(1)So, is it taking maths & econ degree will be safer to me if I still have doubt about become actuary? But, the problem is what can math & econ degree do beside doing actuary, the course states that with this degree can do risk analyst, finance industry and so on....But wouldn't the employer more appreciate those student with degree in finance & banking or account&finance and so on....?

(2)Huh!? very cool man! Looks like phd, doctor, prof....

(3)May i know how actuaries work as a team? Wouldn't they crash on different opinions/views about pricing product or valuation?

May i ask that is it actuary only well-paid when working in insurance company? How about working in Central bank, financial company, commercial bank, consultant firm and so on? May i ask what actuarial tasks for you is the most excited & interested?

Thank for answering and clear my doubt!

This post has been edited by zidanedagger: May 23 2009, 07:58 PM

I believe as long as you are AIA or FIA, meaning qualified actuary, you have very good pay as long as you get into the field that utilises your knowledge.
Certainly the financial company would have to pay you high salary, or else you would just rather stay in the insurance company who pay you well, isn't it?

my smart friends are studying this. wish them luck.

hehe. good topic. at least i know im out of this.

So after reading through all the posts, the most important thing is computer programming and not High level of maths skills?

Not necessary computer programming skill.
I believe you need a blend of everything, ie Maths, Econs, Finance, Programming, Communication etc.
You need to have interests in Maths, or else you can't go too far from growing a liking in Actuarial Science.
With the current trend, it is that everything is getting to become computational, and hence computer skill becomes very important.
I believe, AS do involve some tedious Maths which can be simplified by programming knowledge.

i see, so having computer knowledge does help. What type of computer programming skills are we talking about? C++?

I am not sure about it.
But it seems you need to know Excel very well, and probably a software called PROPHET.

Oh my, my excel is bad because there is the lack of need to use it , better backup my excel then Thx for the heads up.

Excel is very impressive you know.
Well, to use it to do table, draw graph probably utilises less than 5 percents of Excel.
You check the 'function' they have.
I guess you need to know how to use those functions especially those under the Financial one..

I may be wrong. Correct me if that's the case.

Hey, any place to learn excel ? Cause the only way i learned abt com stuff was having a project or a need to use it

This post is just to bump this thread up to the front page again

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Omg! can you translate that to English please? This is an English Forum.
Thank you.

Dude, i dont get what your saying -.-

TS, i wanna ask, what professional body u joined for ur professional exams?(eg,SOA,IOA,....)
is it the exams r different for different bodies?
n i heard dat the exams for SOA already changed into something like 5 preliminary, 3 VEE, etc....(i forget d), can u clarify more??

Bumping this wonderful thread up.

I believe TS is under the IA or FA, Institute of Actuaries or Faculty of Actuaries, depending on which university in UK he goes to. Scottish universities, like Heriot-Watt is under FA, where those in England is under IA.

Exams are different from different bodies, but some of them are similar.
For instance, the IAA(Australia) has similar papers with the UK. (Did they just buy the papers?)

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Added on May 25, 2009, 1:41 amA question to TS.

Is being an actuary a stressful job?

This post has been edited by tanjinjack: May 25 2009, 01:41 AM

I'm doing the papers under the UK body, the Institute of Actuaries.
I would expect the exams to be not entirely different. Most Malaysian companies would encourage their student to do the American board though, as there are fewer papers to take.
I would not be able to tell you about the SOA as I do not have experience with the American body.

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Added on May 25, 2009, 5:56 amI'm not too sure how you would define stressful. I would say it can be stressful being an actuarial student as you would have to work and study at the same time. Being a qualified actuary would give you more responsibilities, so it could potentially be stressful as well.

Working in Malaysia is like working in all Asian countries, your employers really expect a lot from you and working 9 to 9 is the norm, not the exception.

This post has been edited by monkeyseemonkeydo: May 25 2009, 05:56 AM

the industry is not as developed(Malaysia) as other countries is it?

can one registers for the exam (IOA board) even though he still in his first year in a unrelated degree?is tat possible?

yea, the Actuary profession bodies have no restriction. I heard my brother said one of his friends who were taking engineering but went to take the exam.

with a degree in Engineering or other maths based degree, student can actually pursue to a MSc in Actuarial, and some MSc equip the students with essential knowledge of Actuarial, and exemption from IA CT1-8 will be given. However, this might be too tough as Undergraduate 3 years squeeze into 1 year MSc...

No, unfortunately, it isn't. However, this just means that actuaries are even more vital for the progress of the industry.

But let's not forget the knowledge they gain in their Bachelor degree, where it builds the road for them to do the MSc. After all, the university won't admit students into their MSc course if the students are not competent enough.
Seeing that MSc and BSc can all lead to exemptions, I think it really doesn't matter if one starts out with other first degree.

I have a friend says that "Nowaday, the economic recession has made insurance companies hardly survive, in order to cut their cost employer train those "experience" workers to do actuarial tasks to substitute qualified actuary" So, is it possible such phenomena happen as I thought Actuary is not only well paid and the demand always there.

it does have a bright future, i guess you must be deciding which course to study?

my girl friend work 3-5 yrs can get 5K per month---civil engineer. Degree holder of course.

just make sure u plan your courses and career properly. Experience is what counts, not that piece of cert. There are too many civil engineer nowadays, so to make your mark in the field.

This post has been edited by rpg: Jun 7 2009, 05:53 PM

If I were to take A level before going for actuarial courses, should I enroll in art stream or science stream, or is it the subjects I take that matters?

What if I'm not so sure whether or not to take up actuarial science, is it a wice decision to go into science stream instead of arts stream (with further maths of course)?

I read that an actuarist's qualification comes from the professional exams, so, I'm wondering, if a person graduate from University ABC with a degree in XYZ, and he manage to score in the professional papers, does he qualify to be recognised and work as an actuarist like others?

Is an actuarial student married to the book for the next 10 years of his life?

This post has been edited by xzjasonzx: Jun 9 2009, 05:28 PM

It doesn't really matter what subjects you take for your A-Levels as long as you take Math and Further Math. Maybe if you take Econs you will cover your Micro and Macro Econs for your first year of your Actuarial degree course. And well if you're aiming for the top unis A in science > A in arts.

You recognition as a qualified actuary depends solely on your association with the actuarial body you took the test wth and who certifies you.

You won't be tied to the book unless you really want to complete all the actuarial papers. With the knowledge you learned from your degree course, you can easily go to any financial, investment, marketing or business line.

The college of my choice does not have further maths in the arts stream, so should I take up science stream instead or arts stream without the crucial further maths?

I want to ask a few question....

1)Many people say actuarial are focused on insurance industry.if we work on finance it say that our paid are lower because not fully utilize our capability (like there is no different between the finance grad ).
is it true??

2)Is the actuarial level knowledge in finance or account are same with finance and account grad??

3)how many paper we need to finish in professional exam??

4)I like involve in investment industry.is it suitable for me to take actuary science??

5)Is it becoming an actuary make you special and more important than accountant and finance worker??

1) Actuaries aren't focused on the insurance industry. They specialization is basically risk management and in order to do that they have to have a wide range of knowledge. As long as you work as an 'actuary' you pay in roughly the same regardless of what industry you work in. Of course some companies demand more skills from you and some less and there may be a little difference, but just a little in general.

2)Actuarial grads don't learn accounts as far as i know, at least they don't have to. Accounts is not needed for them to do their job. Actuarial grads don't learn some stuff finance grads learn. Finance is basically managing the company's finances and an actuary is risk management and they help out in estimating prices, returns of investments, premiums, marketing etc.

3)More papers you pass higher your qualification

4)You are not any more important than the window cleaner.

i will graduate from uitm taking diploma in investment analysis.next i want to take actuary science.so which path is better:

a)pursuit in degree in finance and then take actuary professional exam or;

b)taking degree in actuary science for 3or 4 years and next take professional exam .

Take Science stream! Economics is relatively easy, I don't think you'll be missing out if you don't take it at A Level.

Agreed. I choose to enter science stream back at f4 althou i've love to do bout business/finance field due to the fact that those art knowledges are relatively easier to be obtained, even thru daily life but science knowledges aren't

IMO, only choose actuarial science if you've extremely good analysing ability combined with decent maths skill. You must love figures if you wanted to do it. Otherwise, your life will be miserable.

And you must also love this phrase from SoA: Risk is Opportunity =)

I like it! It's become my motivation to pursue Actuary now.

wow..i never knew this course will be that sophisticate..i'm a 2009 SPM student and 4 months to go to sit for the exam.
i'm very interested in actuary because:
-there are not many fully qualifed actuary in M'sia
-the course which has one of the highest dropout
-i can have FIA in back of my name which makes me special
-i will be a well know profession(dislike earning lucratively without knowledge)
-all my friends went for doctor and yes they are top students in my school including me;first and second place is my friend while i'm in the thrid place.)
-i don't believe that being a doctor is the only lucrative job there is.(non-financial worries)

Oh yes..what if i take pure Actuarial Science?
is it better for taking Actua and Econs?which i still can't understand =.=
when you said taking both actuary and econs,did you mean that its like a double degree program?
pls reply T_T

This post has been edited by epplegaara: Jul 3 2009, 08:54 AM

How many professional papers are there for the UK and US body respectively?

It's good to have interest, but I didn't read that you have immense interest in Maths.
Ultimately, choose a career that you like, not having the best opportunities, best income out there.
If you like Maths, then consider a degree with strong component of Maths (not necessary Acutarial Science).
If you like dancing, you can go all the way learn dancing and do not own any degree.
It's your life after all. Enjoy it with your preferred career.


UK..
9 CTs
3 CAs
5 STs, complete 2.
5 SAs, complete 1.

When you reach CA, you are Associate.
When you complete all, you are Fellow.

so basically there are a total of 9+3+2+1 = 15 papers to complete out of the 22?

Indeed.
Nonetheless, some papers can only be passed by attending seminars, like CT9 and CA2.
Some papers can be exempted through academic qualification, usually the CT1 to CT8.
Very few universities offer exemptions up till CAs.

i do have interest in maths...rank 3 in school since form 4 started..not being arrogant but i love solving complex questions..but.. my first ambition was to be an engineer...however when i found out that engineer do not earn much even though its considered profession work and hard to study..i decided not to persuit that ambition..i score A1 in all subject..and frankly i love physic and chemistry more that maths...

my friends are going to be elite someday and i want to join them,because i know i deserve it because i'm a determine person and i'm studying 4 hours per day (after shcool)

i have read an article from real Actuary,they said being actuary does mean we need to be top rank Maths student,but need to have wide knowledge and determination because i will be solving ONE question for hours or so...

This post has been edited by epplegaara: Jul 4 2009, 04:12 PM

So you're in mainly due to the income?
Might as well go into Oil & Gas. Few yrs experience, easily 5 figures.
Most O&G companies minimum 3 months bonus.
You can utilize your love for chemistry there.

lol , really? tell you something.. just a gossip among students in my school or whole malaysia..chinese students won't be as easy as malay student to get oil and gas course..(my MALAY teacher told me and MALAY friends)<not being racial criticism zzz..

take this,other developing countries like Dubai,are paid lucratively no matter what type of engineer,in Malaysia,high salary is based on TYPE OF ENGINEER,and of course oil and gas engineer are highly paid,this is because we have petroleum in our country,however you think they want non-bumi citizens to govern entire professional jobs?only one university in malaysia offer this course and that is universiti teknologi petroleum malaysia,they decide,they control,they teaches and they will decide your future

however if i have the opportunity i will definitely considere it

so thats why i'm taking actuarial science locally or overseas, not mainly because of the highly paid but the specialties,i feel that being actuary is very special because they can solve something that most ppl can't ,just like doctor >.< for engineer,all you need is the basic knowledge and the company or government will supply the TOOLS for it,all you need to do is read the mannual book zz which i think this is one of the reasons engineer salary is low because our country only IMPORT never INVENT...

so.. HELLO ACTUARY!!!

I don't take that as an insult to say that engineer is just someone who reads manual book and do things with supplied tools. I take it as you being a bit too young and ignorant. Period.

As someone who is also good in Maths and have been at the verge of nearly go to Actuarial Science (I can do it now, if I want to, having a partial scholarship from a UK university), I really find interest/passion to the course is very important. Don't be blinded when choosing a course. I really feel that if you were to cross out a profession in your list, it's best with a reason you don't like it, instead of telling out the weakness/ bad things about the job. Every profession has its bad and dirty side.
Actuary, although I am not in the industry, is a job in office. Any office conspiracy and politics should apply to actuary as well, especially him/her being someone who is unique in a group.

Why are you looking for high pay?
Is using money as a blanket a very happy thing to do?
Is using money as toilet paper a very happy thing to do?
Is using money as fuel to lit up lamp a very happy thing to do?

Money is not the factor in choosing course, but interest.
I don't think you really digest the opening post of this thread.
I am not discouraging you from becoming an actuary, but I really wish people would consider well before going.
Please please, think wisely and carefully.
You are biased, if I want to conclude.

(I don't wish to bring up what an engineer is going to do, and don't think will make a engineer vs actuary post. This is a post of actuary.)

Yes Dubai WAS highly paid until recently.....now many projects lack of funding.... besides that without good negotiation skills you might actually be getting paid way below the supposed market rate for ur expertise

from ur previous posts, i dare say, u are just like any other people, thinking that good in maths will be able to grant u the entry to the field of actuarial studies.

1st of all, kindly read back the 1st post by TS, math is important, but if u are so into math, taking a math degree will be better for u

2ndly, actuarial studies is a combination of finance, accounting, econs, sociology and math, actuary does not spend time solving math question in their work. They analyze, calculate with computer programs and come out with a set of premiums that will maximize the profit of the company they are working for (insurance sector).

3rdly, read back the 1st post again, its great to know that a real actuary started this thread to guide those wanting to pursue this field.

epplegaara, a word for you, great in math for high school level doesnt mean u will be great in uni level, it merely suggests that u have a good grasp of basic. u are still young, immature? take time to discover the world after SPM.

What job in oil and gas are you talking about?
There are so many. My Chinese friend works in Petronas. When you talk about O&G don't just think about Petronas. There are so many foreign companies like Shell, Schlumberger. Schlumberger do pay better than Petronas.
Why not O&G traders? They earn bonus like 12 months, and even 24 months during good time.

Chemical engineers are "engineers" too, they are higly sought after by O&G companies.
"All you need to read is manual book" are for technicians, not engineers. You have a very wrong perception of engineers. Which engineering field you talking about? Chemical? Electronics? Civil? etc...

Go to Job & careers section, read up some posts and post some questions there. I feel that your view is too narrow for now.

THank for the share.

ya i think i'm still young but engineers really don't earn much in malaysia,i don't want to have a salary range 2k -8k with many years of experience,and it is not fair,i dare you persuit engineer course and i'm sure you will end up with normal life,and i hate normal life.excelling in studies is useless if the rewarding sucks,i rather continue my parents business if i know my PROFESSIONAl job is useless,sure some much but very few

and why everyone is agains me?because i said i was proficient in maths?
hey i did said being actuary need a wide range of knowledge,communication skill,and yes i know actuary is the combination of comerce study,and i don't think anyone who are persuing to be an actuary have the same perspective as you guys,

ya this forum is about the path to be an actuary,

and kwh1986 ,engineer is an easy course in M'sia no doubt,just having credits can be engineer

bbjslee wth are you talking about?the foreign companies you said just offer job not course,employee always have bonus sia zz

and kwh1989,don't criticise me if you don't know my history of study,you might think i'm being arrogant ,but what are you talking about?spm is the BASIC of everything -.-
those dropout are those who fail because they slack during course

actuary is a job which deals with risk,anyone who loves to solve math will be disappointed because actuary solve probability ,statistic and so on
i love probability chapter add math so think i should persuit actuarial course and i love challenge.
as from what i read in an acticle made by actuary,maths will not be the major problem to be a n actuary,is the determination,ingenuity and ability to think outside the box.

and tan,choosing a job based on interest is very good no doubt

This post has been edited by epplegaara: Jul 7 2009, 08:24 PM

Take some time to think, my friend.
Don't refute for the sake of refute.

haha, u sounded as if u really know wut probability is about? kiddo, like i said, u got a lot to learn, and for your information, im taking actuarial studies as my major now, and im entering 2nd year soon. and ppl here mostly started their degree, even tanjinjack is an engineering student. so most of us here experienced sth u have yet to explore, we are viewing our opinions because im pretty sure by the time u started degree, u will share the same pov as us now. in the mean time, u r juz a kid....closed in a box by malaysia education system?

okay, i believ you

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Added on July 9, 2009, 5:25 pmany idea oversea or local actuarial course better?
after graduate,which paper is the most recognise?example SOA

oh and the salary range for fresh graduate with out any exams yet and after exam

This post has been edited by epplegaara: Jul 9 2009, 11:52 PM

REVIVE DEAD THREAD

so lets say i am taking an engineering course. i am not required to have a degree but so long i pass the papers, it is as good as a qualification paper for my job application as an actuary?

It really depends on the company and the actual job/position you're applying for.

I learn something new

REVIVE DEAD RIVIVED DEAD THREAD

Actually I wanna ask more about scholarship matters....

I am an AUP student (currently in first sem), I wanna ask is it possible to get a handsome figure scholarship if i wanna admit into University of Wisconsin-Madison or University of Michigan, Ann Arbor? Cuz... I dont want to be trap in uni like Drake or Lincoln yet personally felt incapable of entering UPenn...

No. Both are stingy universities. They don't have aid for foreign student unless you're extremely exceptional, which in such a case you wouldn't be doing ADP now.

well, so, CGPA 4.0 wont help either isnt it....

No

i'm not sure if this thread stil continuing, or shld i start a new topic.. =)

ok, here it goes, i've read some comment, saying tat being an actuary doens really specifically require a degree in actuarial science, as long u have those actuarial professional cert / recognized paper with any related degree

so i have 2 questions here,

1. wat are the related degrees will you recommend which also allow you to become an actuary?
for ease to answer tis question, i'm interested in actuary is bcuz i like maths / calculation and quite good at it as compare to other subject (i know many ppl say liking maths alone is not enuf), i like solving problem (1 of the game i like is mastermind n sudoku), i'm strong in logical thinking, i like to think n analyze. on top of tat, salary ofcuz is my reason to this career but it doesn mean i wanna become millionaire, i just wanna have more stable financial as my current job is not stable.
reason to ask this question is bcuz i would prefer to have more general degree n yet is my favorite n capable in it

2. let say, u fail to become an actuary, where else can u go with these recommended degrees above (if u answer question above)?

to narrow down the answer, i will only take up courses in malaysia cuz i prefer working in malaysia n financial issue.. =)

thanks so much if u could help me by answering tis question! =)

maths, economics etc.. basically any subject with a "quantitative" background. engineering also..



economics -- work in the financial sector/bank etc.
maths -- work in the financial sector/bank, statistician, etc.. although with maths you might want to take some subjects in financial maths etc. search for terms like black-scholes, ito's lemma etc. to know more

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Added on April 2, 2010, 6:51 pmwith maths degree, u can then specialise in financial maths (involves maths/calculations like actuarial science, but financial maths is more "pure maths" instead of statistics like actuarial science).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_finance

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Added on April 2, 2010, 6:51 pmyou might want to take a course like this below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Quantitative_Finance

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Added on April 2, 2010, 6:53 pmif you have a masters degree in financial maths (see link above), you are very well placed to go into alot of areas in the financial sector (investment banking, banking, finance all these stuff etc.)

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Added on April 2, 2010, 6:55 pmif you like stats, then maybe actuarial science would suit you. if you like more pure maths, financial maths would suit you more.

This post has been edited by gomes.: Apr 2 2010, 06:55 PM

1. If you aim for actuary, sure do Actuarial Science la... But you can try other courses that are related, Mathematics should be most recommended. You can do Economics, Finance, Accounting etc. as well. But if you want to be actuary, why bother about other degree? (Follow to question 2)

2. It's not that you do a AS degree you are dead stuck in the actuarial industry. You can do a lot more things than that. There are a lot of graduates venturing into finance industry, and not many have actually tried to progress to become a better actuary (exams are tough, you know!!).
An AS degree gives you sharp strong analytical skills that are desired by a lot of fields, especially finance.

A view from overseas

As some of you will be aiming to work overseas, I thought I'd share my view with you. My background:

Uni degree: Property Management
Exams: 11 exams with UK Institute of Actuaries
Experience: New Zealand, Australia, Dubai (now)

I'd like to tell you my story because I am not your standard actuarial student. This is to prove that as long as you are interested to be an actuary and got the capabilities to be one, you can become one. As you can see from my background, I didn't study a "related" degree, I am no Maths whizz and I don't think I am going to be filthy rich any time soon.

I first heard of the word actuary when I started looking for a job, I studied for the exams at home when I joined an insurance company who would pay for my studies. I got tired of exams (after only passing 2!) and switched to an IT/ Marketing job for a couple of years, which somehow proved to be quite useful for me personally. I later got an actuarial post with a consultancy where they utilised a lot of my programming skills, in fact I think that is why they hired me in the first place. From there I continued my exams and made good progress. I have recently married and started up a new life in Dubai, working in a reinsurance company, STILL continuing my exams.

So the morale of the story, you don't get stucked once you go into the actuarial profession, you can switch to other professions you like. The actuarial profession is very wide and is not confined to insurance companies only, there is also investment, pension funds, health systems, government departments, even weather forecasts!! As to what qualification you need to have to sit the exams, I saw a 16 years old sitting the exam once (his dad is an actuary), so I'd say no special qualification needed.

Of course, this is my experience overseas, it may be a different story in Malaysia.

I would also like to add my two cents about the "good in Maths" part. To become a good actuary you have to be very market conscious, your technical pricing maybe 100% sound but it doesn't mean your product will sell. Judgement is very important, if not more important than your maths! My actuarial manager once told me if he copied the competitor's pricing, our product will sell better than pure technical pricing. I studied no maths in uni and now finding the applications paper in the later stage of the course easier, I was told some maths whizz struggles with the applications paper in the end while passing the technical papers without any problems.

Also, I would like to urge you to be prepared to give a significant portion of your life away for a good 6 years if not more. Especially for the females out there, think about how it is going to affect your prospects for marriage and having kids. I say this because I see a lot of girls' relationship suffer because of the lack of time for love, and sadly end up single (and deemed "unapproachable" by most guys) when they qualify.

Ok, I hope you are still awake and I have given you some useful info about working in the actuarial profession overseas.

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Added on April 6, 2010, 8:02 pmOne more point to make if you are in it for the money.........

In Dubai, my husband, a civil engineer, earns DDOOUUBBLLEE my salary. He just got his job this year too, so you may as well do engineering!

This post has been edited by dubai_gal: Apr 6 2010, 08:02 PM

thanks for the info! by the way, what is the objective of all these exam? to become an certified actuary? since you said you were able to work in actuarial post with only 2 past exam
i'm kinda confused with those exam everyone is talking about, so i wanna know what exam is necessarily to be done? and what is it for? since some people able to work in actuarial post without taking all/some actuarial exam.

thanks for giving advice or info, where i'm confused yet, is interested.. thanks!

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Added on April 7, 2010, 12:14 amohya, and where can we take those compulsory exam? if is needed..

This post has been edited by 9rac3: Apr 7 2010, 12:14 AM

You can work in the actuarial field without any exams, especially in places where accredited university actuarial courses are not available. A lot of companies hire statistics grad to fill actuarial position. Most companies will hire actuarial students who are determined to go through the whole exam system. However, you only advance to more senior roles after passing exams. Usually, you are stucked at manager level and cannot proceed to director level without being fully qualified.

As to the exam system, the UK system requires you to pass 15 papers to become fully qualified. The more exams you get, the more you will understand the work that you will be doing. You cannot learn all the technical knowledge by practising because too much technical knowledge will be assumed as people are given basic knowledge through the exams.

For info on the exams and how to sit the exams, visit this website
http://www.actuaries.org.uk/students

There are even some past year exams there you can look at if you want. Also bear in mind the syllabus can change over time, it used to be 9 exams 20 or so years ago, now it is 15.

You can find study guides for each exam here:
http://www.acted.co.uk/Html/paper_study_guide.htm

You also order materials from this site, if you reside in Malaysia you qualify for reduced rate fees and materials.

Please bear in mind that I am not working in Malaysia and I do not know how they hire over there. From experience, companies overseas hire whoever they think is suitable, just like some engineers will get into investment banking jobs.

There see, someone in the field has spoken. You can get a job without the papers. Please don't listen to the rubbish that an actuarial degree is a useless piece of paper.

which uni u graduate from?uk?

dubai_gal did mention she did actuarial job without actuarial degree or exam papers.However , actuarial degree can grant exam paper exemptions.

I graduated from the grand University of Auckland! LOL

I have no actuarial degree and no actuarial exams when I got my first actuarial job. In fact, when I graduated from uni I have not heard of actuaries before.

The message I am trying to get across is...
An actuarial degree do not guarantee you a job in the industry; and
No actuarial degree and no actuarial paper do not mean you won't get a job in the profession if you are truly interested in the field.

My understanding of the "accredited university actuarial papers" vs the "institute exams":

- there are 15 (UK) institute exams to pass before you become a fully qualified actuary. Other institutes have different number of exams.

- one or two university papers map to an institute exam, if you get good enough grades in the university papers, you get exemption from the institute. i.e. you passed that institute exam as well. Otherwise, you still have to sit the institute exam if all you have is borderline university paper pass. "Good enough grade" varies by university.

- you can sit the institute papers without any uni degree, all you have to do is enrol as a student with the institute and study by correspondence.

The best outcome from a university actuarial course is you get 10 exemptions (maybe higher for some UK unis). However, if you don't get any, you still have a better standing when you start the institute exams as you already have the background knowledge from your university course. There are people ordering books without any prior knowledge or maths like me and try to self learn the hard way.

where do u sit the institute exam?

This post has been edited by beyond_99: Apr 8 2010, 10:25 AM

good info! thanks! for my case, no harm taking a degree since i have no degree at all, atleast having a degree able to have more job opportunity (ofcuz i hope to work in actuarial post) but my age and financial might not allow as i need to give up my current job n study the degree..
i have question here, where can i enrol as a student, like wat beyond_99 asked, where to sit in the exam? honestly, i dunno where to start.. =/

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Added on April 8, 2010, 11:35 amanyone know?

i know dubai_gal taking course in UK, so she might not know where to get in at m'sia..

This post has been edited by 9rac3: Apr 8 2010, 11:35 AM

You can enrol with the institute of actuaries UK and sit exams in Malaysia, for a list of exam centres, see http://www.actuaries.org.uk/students/exams...entres_overseas

Of course you may want to check out other options first.

I think you may have given people some misconception about actuarial science

1. I want to do Actuarial Science because I like Math.
This is the biggest misconception that people have about Actuarial Science. In actual fact, a good knowledge of Mathematics is necessary, but a great knowledge is not. In the UK, the first 8 professional papers are somewhat Maths-based, but the tougher papers at the end are all written papers, which require a good command of English, a good knowledge of the insurance industry and good critical thinking skills. Throughout my course, the most difficult branch of Maths we did was Calculus and Linear Algebra, and that is not saying much. When you do start working, you will realise that the only Math you need are mostly addition and subtraction. Computer Programming will be the most important skill you will ever need. And to all of those who says that they need Further Math in their A-Levels, I did Math, Economics and Law. If you like Math, do a Mathematics degree.

Yes! You may be true that when we start working, the only maths that is needed is addition and subtraction. However, why do you think that most people have to study so much mathematics just to take an actuarial science major? We have to know as well, passing those professional papers are not easy at all and it needs mathematics! Actuarial science major is more than mathematics as it involves economics, finance, computing, communication and others. That's how students are prepared for those harder examinations.

2. I want to do Actuarial Science because the pay is good.
True, we have one of the highest starting salaries in the business world. Not by much though. The thing is, a qualified actuary does earn a lot. But to get that qualification, one has to pass professional papers, and those are not easy by a mile. The average time it takes to pass all your papers in Malaysia is around 6 years, depending on how good you are. (Some do take more than 10 years) And truth be told, all other professions will be able to earn a satisfactory remuneration within 10 years. If you want the money, go into Investment Banking. In a magazine which I have read, in business, while all other financial workers are paying off their mortgage for their first house, Investment Bankers are buying their second home.

True that it's a good pay. However, the situation may not be as bad as u may have said. To earn a lot, we need qualification, which is by passing papers. However, if one were to be serious in actuarial science, he/she would have plan to take some papers when doing their degree. Serious students would on average pass about 4 papers(SOA/CAS) by the time they graduated with their actuarial degree. Hence, it may not take that many years to pass all the papers. Moreover, to be exact, it's not that you can only earn a lot by passing all the papers. In fact, for each paper that you passed, your salary will increase. Lets say you passed 4 papers(SOA/CAS) after 3 years you graduated. The pay is already vert high as compared to other degree holders are still working their way up in their career

3. I can pass all my professional exams if I work hard enough.
I want to believe this. I really do want to believe this. But with only 50 qualified actuaries in Malaysia, doesn’t it make you doubt that the only reason people are failing is because of a lack of effort? Studying is easy enough. Working is easy enough. Studying while working is not. While I was working in Malaysia, a colleague of mine works from 9 to 7 everyday, if he is lucky. On his way to and back from work, he studies on the LRT. If there is overtime, he will need to stay back and continue working. On weekends, he studies. At night, after being thoroughly exhausted at work, he studies. And while doing all these, he needs to find time for his girlfriend, family and friends. Now, ask yourself this: can you picture yourself doing that for a year? 3 years? 10 years?

I have to say i have to disagree with you. YES one can pass all professional papers if they work hard enough. For the actuarial field, if you are working for an actuarial company, you would usually be given study break if you were to take a professional exam. They would give you holidays so that you can study and prepare well for the papers. Therefore, the situation is not as bad as you said it is. You said that why is there only about 50 qualified actuary in Malaysia? This may not be because passing the papers are very hard. This may be because the actuarial field are not familiar to the society yet. The so-called qualified actuaries are those who passed all the papers. However, those who have passed a few papers are also actuary, just that they are not fully accredited.

I just want to clear out some misconception that TS may bring to you. In short, actuarial science is really a very rewarding career. If you like maths, do mathematics, like money, do investment banking. If you like both maths and money, do actuarial science. Moreover, an actuarial career is one of the best career because despite of its high demand, the workload is not as much. It is also ranked the best job in 2010.

Still, these is something that i have to agree with TS. Many people are taking actuarial science without first exploring what Actuarial science is all about. I have a friend who took physics in Matriculation took actuarial science for university just because many people are taking it. Many people even take actuarial science without knowing what actuarial science it, and that they have no idea about those professional papers. For them, it is just another degree that give you a lot of money once you graduated. This is the major misconception about actuarial science.

so jpysh2004, r u an actuarial student, or working in actuarial field?

Thanks a lot jpysh2004... your informations are really helpful... Can i ask a few question on this topic? I'm actually interested in maths/add maths and problem solving... And i do like things about financial all... but i'm afraid my maths is just a basic level... i'm not a genius or whatever... but i have no interest in any other profession... i actually thought i would do fine in engineering fields because of the maths... And i am a IT science student... So, should i take on actuarial science or should i just do other mathematical field like financial analyst, investment banking, etc... And i do not quite like accounts... but i like economics... i'm really confused here... thanks for every piece of your opinion.