still don't understand scotty part. how he ended up in the planet and wait for future spook and kirk to arrive.

he was also sort of marooned there.
the admiral sent him there for what scotty did to the dog.
but then never came back for him coz of what happen to the dog.

oh...okay i see.
so in the end, there are actually two spook living in the present world??? one old spook and one young spook?

prequel only got 4 chapters anyway

pity porthos .lol but the beagle wold have been very very old by that time . (could be a diff beagle though )

spock not spook

spock not spook.
but yes two spocks because of spock prime's ship was destroyed together with the narada.
plus the blackhole the red matter created was random.
even if there was still red matter there would be no way for them to control where/when they'll go.

thanks for the explanation... i know what it meant to do..
i just meant that its preposterous something of this sort could exist in reality.
something so tiny having huge amounts of power in it..
hell.. if they're so advanced they can utilize it to power cities and worlds...
anyhow,, what i mean is the idea that a single liquid can form a black hole..
would love to hear some theories on it..

its not preposterous considering humans can build destructive nuclear weapons based on small quantity of elements.

Star Trek a science fiction. Fiction based on science/scientific theory. As all fiction do, theories can be tweaked/expanded/exagerrated. I enjoyed the movie alot without thinking too deep into each and every single science they used and their "plausibility".

perhaps it has to do with the stability of the isotope.
like we have learned to use nuclear fission but not nuclear fusion.
when it comes to rare metals and substances it can get very very complex.
different allotropes of it will make it different.
e.g. carbon has two allotropes, one is diamond and one is graphite.
some appear on the periodic table some do not as they're a combination of a few.
some reactions are fusion based and some are fission based.

e.g. in knight rider a few grams of hafnium would make a very powerful bomb.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/intro/hafnium.htm

Well, Spock Prime does know how to slingshot around the sun. But I'd rather not think too much frankly.

This post has been edited by Stupidity Police: May 24 2009, 04:50 PM

hmm interesting take there zenix...
ill just admit u know more than more than me in general science.
please elaborate further if you can on this theory if it does involve fusion/ fission of the sort.

i think what boggles me is that i just dont know the true nature of what the supposed red matter is... which is why its an easy escape for the story or a 'cheat' to move the story forward.

if just throwing ideas around, maybe its similar to the properties of a white star before it goes supernova or turning to a black hole. blah blah blah... i dont think our level of understanding currently can explain it. which is what makes the red matter more interesting, perplexing and for me atleast, preposterous. just coz we dont know what it actually is and how it interacts, etc.

alanyuppie, im well aware of the nuclear weapons man has produced and used. but its just back to the issue what is actually the red matter is.

a tiny drop can create a black hole that can devour a sun (if i remember correctly from the beginning of movie, for what its supposed to be used for). but then the whole vat of it creates the same size black hole when it crashes into narada. is there a limit to its size and how big it can go? why a 2d black hole and not spherical? why didnt create multiple black holes if it reacted independently, assuming it grow bigger with more of it. why not supermassize black holes? blah blah blah on and on...

what is this supposed red matter is that can create this black hole by fusing with nuclear power?

and yeah, science fiction can tweak or exaggerate theories but i didnt say i never enjoyed the movie.. i enjoyed it a lot.. but its just bugging me a bit about this red matter, what it actually is. how can it hold so much energy, rip apart space and time continuum. blah blah blah...

This post has been edited by sshahar9: May 24 2009, 05:26 PM

u dont seem to grasp the whole idea of science fiction here.

when star trek introduced the tricorder back in 1960s, nobody could even perceive such things could ever existed. today, iphones could probably outperform the tricorders, which urges us to think what would a tricorder look like 100 years in the future?

if u look back, red matter is processed from decalithium (not nuclear power by the way). have u even bothered to look up decalithium, and if it actually exists? why not start there? . star trek gave us quite a lot of things by imagining the unimaginable. that's the whole point. it's fairly safe to let certain details loose so that it could be filled in the future, just like the whole logic of a tricorder was probably totally out of this world in the 60s.

I went "wooooo" everytime a recognizable character's name is introduced in the movie as a young person

But I srsly LOL'd at the way Kirk takes over Spock as the captain of Enterprise
I thought he would've took like like, for example Spock is in an injury or something, not by something of being angered at

Though its still a funny thing to me, I see it as quite fitting since that particular scenario involves of showing Spock that he does have feelings, not just thinking everything logically

no.. i guess not fully.. i just understand in so far as much of nat geo that i watch. im not a scientist. haha.. so its best to talk in laymans terms... im not trying to make myself look smart here, but im opening up for debate on the merits of some stuff... not just accept it point blank.

no... i dont know what a tricorder is.. i dont watch trekkie series.. sorry. so probly cant talk much of their whole history and all their technology/theories.

decalitihium, no i did not know that.. maybe i missed it in this thread.. but it would be first time i heard it. is it a real mineral/element whatnot?

im no expert on star trek but if its strongly rooted in science as some people claim it, the fiction wont go too far off.

anyway, my points above and questions above remains, regarding what is red matter supposed to be, how its supposed to function etc. and the issues about black holes.

i made a boo-boo above, i think its the sun that dies out and either goes supernova or turn to a white dwarf star... and then somehow can turn to black hole.

i can actually deduce that red matter is not nuclear.. since supposedly its thrown off into nuclear reactions (the sun at beginning, and vulcans planet core later). it reacts to nuclear power.. or maybe just fire... coz i quite dont understand how spocks ship ramming into narada can trigger the black hole in absence of nuclear power/fire or whatever.. but then again i forgot what that huge laser making holes drilling planet is based on what power. blah blah blah...

i was thinking what is the nature of red matter. a big star that dies out can create black holes, but smaller stars dies out as white dwarfs. so its function, its essence is something that is similar to a huge star... but what? how certain are we that minerals or whatever that causes huge stars to turn to black holes? can we be certain thats what decalithium does? or isnt black holes created by big stars are partly if not all caused by the huge gravitational pull of the aforementioned star before it went bust? or is it something more .... is 'elemental' the word? is it huge chunks of gravity or whatever that creates a chain reaction with nuclear power?
so if a dying star dies, huge gravity is present and tries to absorb everything around it, and if strong enough it becomes a black hole. small star= small gravity= white dwarf.
so are we to presume that red matter creates the 'moment' where the nuclear fusion dries out, no more hydrogen to burn, and thus creates the environment for a black hole to exist.
what is the red matters true nature?

haha... anyhow.. this is fun... chill laa.. ur talking like i hit a nerve or something..
isnt this is what star trek or whatever science based shows are about? to get people interested in science?

do u have any thoughts on the matter regarding red matter?

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Added on May 24, 2009, 10:47 pmbtw... i forgot to mentione another qualm regarding red matter..

why didnt it interact or combust or reacted to the black hole when it entered it... which gives more light to its nature and more questions too...

This post has been edited by sshahar9: May 24 2009, 10:47 PM

any matter can go through a fusion or fission process.
extracting hydrogen from water is also a process of fission.
how batteries work is also a form of fusion.

fusion = one matter fusing with another to form another matter, and or energy.
fission = one matter splitting into to form another matter, and or energy.

thus red matter is a specially processed decalithium and must be stored in some special liquid.
if it FUSED with any other matter then it would create a black hole.
however, in its natural state as decalithium ore it wouldn't create a black hole.
just like how water isn't explosive like hydrogen eventhough it has hydrogen atoms.

however, your observation of how red matter in the movie follows the same line as me about the warp cores.

1 drop of red matter = black hole
spock prime ship explode and whole (probably) 10 litres of red matter pours out as droplets = only 1 black hole of almost equal size of 1 drop red matter black hole.

it should have been many black holes, however, my theory is that only ONE droplet reacted to create the blackhole.
other droplets reacting slower would be sucked into the first black hole before reacting.
then u say why not the smaller blackhole counter the big one to nullify?
well small not massive enough.
unless all the droplets react at the same time then will have multiple holes and all will cancel each other out.

the enterprise dump the warp cores into the blackhole yet still able to fly away with the help of the core exploding.
probably got reserve core coz impulse speed wouldn't do jack.

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Added on May 24, 2009, 11:03 pmbut from my point of view this new star trek franchise is going to take abit more liberties with sci-fi than previous star trek movies/series did to make it more exciting.

This post has been edited by zenix: May 24 2009, 11:03 PM

This isnt Star Trek movie..More like Spock Trek movie..

LOL

Nice movie and entertaining.

a minute amount of anti-matter that comes into contact with matter would nullify each other in a chain reaction and release a vast amount of energy. the amount of energy released would depend on the amount of anti-matter that comes in contact with matter.

red matter only becomes a black hole when it comes in contact with nuclear matter. so the size of the black hole would depends on how much contact occurred. so no matter if it's a drop or a whole ship of red matter, if there is only so much of nuclear matter that it could react with, it would still create the same size of blackhole.

what happens to the rest of the red matter? well, in theory, the center of the blackhole is a singularity. we dont know what happens to matter in a singularity. one possibility in this story is that it gets transported back in time, although in reality it's extremely unlikely that matter would retain its properties in a singularity.

i recommend doing a bit of reading about blackholes to understand its properties. dying stars arent the only thing that could create blackholes. it's all quantum mechanics.

i have no problems in suspending my disbelief over red matter. if u really wanna talk red matter, then i suggest starting with decalithium ores that power the ships. then venture into how the impulse engines work using powers derived from processed dilithium (not decalithium, mind u ). then go over the transporter and phasers and proton torpedoes.

there are lots of other things u should start questioning before u should even question about red matter, bcoz even to me red matter is quite bizarre to explain. it's the first time ever it has been used in science fiction.

by the way, tricorder is the gadget that looks like a flip-phone. i'm not sure if it's being used in this movie, but it was in earlier movies.

nice answer...

but thats the thing bout sci-fi, you can make up answers by correlating stuff to one another, saying how it reacts etc. its not hard-science which is why one should not take it as such and just accept it.

i guess from your answer, this red matter idea is not exclusive to this movie, which i though it was.

i was going to go to the anti/ dark matter stuff of what starts a black hole, but then as you pointed out, there may be other ways for black holes to appear and no just by stars dying/blowing up.

but im not sure if we can call red matter as anti matter, as its clearly liquid and its origin is an ore= matter.
red matter interacting with nuclear is still in a 'matter' realm...

i just find it hard that a simple, still a matter, can cause a black hole. a huge monster of gravity power which when the star dies out, exists when there is a vacuum, or lack of activity. which begs the question, does anti-matter cause it?

anyway, u would just go back to red matter is bizarre, can u direct me to any materials online that can shed light on this red matter. also the part of what other things causes black holes / wormholes instead of exploding stars..

red matter, i think by the end of movie when spocks ship crashed into narada, the red matter broke free and just became volatile and unstable. without interacting with nuclear power... so which is which...
if it doesnt even need nuclear power, then nero drilling a hole through vulcans planet is just for show lar...
couldve just dropped a droplet of red matter on surface also would suffice.

also, if its not anti-matter, i think it should go bigger. regardless if it wasnt big enough, some of the smaller still growing black holes wouldve passed thru the wormhole possibly but still exist and still grow there, so it may either make multiple black holes lapping over each other in various time and location or as from what i understand from nat geo it can only go bigger. its like throwing a bucket of water and a glass of water together, but in the end you get the volume of both. (if we assume this red matter will create a black hole with wormhole like it did for spock) and another example, when the supposed andromeda (if im not mistaken) galaxy crashes with our milky way, the bigger andromeda will not cancel out milky ways black hole, but both would still gravitate to each other and form a bigger black hole.
so just 2 points to consider.

anyway, if we simply say this new movie will take a lot of liberties then it just means i may be right, some things are preposterous to begin with. its like making something up, just to fill up the gap or tie loose ends. it sounds nice but can it really work in reality, in the real universe? anyway good talk and points by all, i dont think theres a definite answer as yet. postulating that its like anti-matter is nice but would that really be the case. if its not, what other possibilities might there be?

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Added on May 25, 2009, 10:32 amyeah... going into those phasers and stuff is a different (almost) subject altogether... not really interested in it. slightly more if not, just, interested with astronomy related stuff... so hope u dont mind i just ask about red matter all da way

This post has been edited by sshahar9: May 25 2009, 10:32 AM

google is ur friend. use it.

red matter IS indeed exclusive to star trek universe. and what i said about it was not my own opinion, but rather reference from other trek websites that i couldnt be bothered to add here. just google it, u'll have no problem stumbling upon it. i repeatedly recommend reading on quantum mechanics bcoz it borrows a lot of concepts from there. ofcourse, it doesnt exist, neither does decalitihium or dilithium ores that power the starships.

u assume red matter is a simple matter. i assure u it's not. although its behaviour when in contact with other matters werent explained, but it's pretty clear it alone is a volatile material, which is why it's kept in a special containment chamber. if not, the crew of narada wouldve taken it out of the jellyfish and store it on board the narada.

explosions might some way ignite the red matter, but it was when it comes into contact with nuclear matter (not power, not energy, not radiation), it would produce a black hole. since the jellyfish was designed to inject the red matter into a sun, then it would be simple enough explanation that the jellyfish actually carries both red matter and nuclear material for producing a blackhole.

it's not entirely made up from air. the idea for such matters came from the realm of quantum physics, where matter can exist and cease to exist by a simple random event. matter does not behave in the way we commonly believe. read "schrodinger's cat", an idea of how the observer can influence the outcome of the existence of matter.

if u think about it, how the heck could an observer influence an object's existence? bizarre isnt it? all it takes is a google click and a few minutes of reading.



btw, ur analogy on blackholes behaving like adding water to more water isnt entirely accurate. here's a better analogy: to sustain fire, u need fuel and oxygen. if u have a vast amount of fuel but little oxygen, u wont create a BOOM, but a mere puff. u need more red matter and more nuclear matter to produce bigger blackholes.

This post has been edited by azarimy: May 25 2009, 11:19 AM

thanks for the info..

yep.. what i said regarding black holes is just regurgitating what is said from those nat geo shows... so i dont think i strayed any.. just mebe not as informed or as well-read... but it was in terms of black holes... not the red matter issue. ur analogy of coz fits coz thats the explanation given by them. u need more of nuclear matter to make it bigger.

still, my problem lies in that we still are not sure what is the mysterious black holes. most of my points above are in terms of real world science... not trekkie science...
scientists dont know whats in the singularity. wormhole is hypothesized. dont know what causes blackholes (or mebe i havent read or watched enough), even though it may be after effect of large stars exploding, but why does the blackhole appear? blah blah blah

still... my questions werent fully satisfied... coz im not convinced red matter can cause black holes if interacted with nuclear matter..
in trek universe, sure it can work, but in real life... well... thats what my beef is all along. if it existed in the real world, what does it do specifically.. well... if we knew, thatd mean humankind have cracked the secrets of black holes, its origin and ending... and i just dont think we're there yet in terms of understanding this 'force' called black holes.

i assume i will get the same response from u and this will go in circles. so i will give u da benefit of the doubt and try to read up on some things u mentioned.

btw... i did think of that jellyfish carrying along nuclear matter as well.. or atleast what i thought was easier to bring along nuclear power so can control where and when to ignite the black hole... no need get too close to the sun.. and no need to drill to the vulcans planet core... anyways...

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Added on May 25, 2009, 3:55 pmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

read a bit bout it..
not really sure i can accept the part of multi-worlds...
its like all the multi-verse ideas...
is the universe inside a bubble. does a big bang occur outside our universe creating another universe..would a wormhole take us to another dimension/time/universe.. so on so forth.. which is right, if any is right? but these is all straying from the question of red matter that i posed ..

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Added on May 25, 2009, 4:04 pmbtw,, i did not think red matter is a simple matter (if u meant by matter - as matter, or as an issue'

it would be complex which is why i asked the question how could it trigger or help cause the black hole. theres a whole flurry of questions for it.
does the red matter itself composed of vast magnetic or gravity energy? is it like a singularity or whatever that unleashes its vast gravitational energy once opened? or simply is it like a ballon filled with water that releases it once theres a leak.
or does red matter interect with nuclear matter and from those chain reactions itself/themselves, create the black hole.
or is the red matter interact with nuclear matter to artificially create the 'moment' or environment and is thus just a catalyst to create this moment where black holes may appear. simulating the conditions. so on and so forth.

im a visual guy.. i may not give u equations or mathematical terms or whatever but my questions are valid..
im reasking if the red matter existed in our universe, what would it actually do?
because to know that, would imply u know how to create a black hole, its essence, its origin, its force, its structure.. like what is gravity that cannot be touched but felt its tug on us...
black holes are still a mystery i think...

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Added on May 25, 2009, 4:10 pmoh wait... u mentioned that bit with nuclear matter.. sure.. thats in trek universe and their explanation..
its like me saying i take a cup of hot milo and if i put in sugar, it will create a tornado or lightning ... it sounds preposterous but hey, if its in an imginary universe, this science and outcome can be possible.
so in real world terms, forget about trek universe. what would a red matter in real world be?

This post has been edited by sshahar9: May 25 2009, 04:10 PM

if u wanna talk real world, there IS NO red matter. period. why push it?

such matters cannot and does not exist.