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AFAIK, demon possession (= a curse from God) is the result of deep involvement in the occult or black magic, ie breaking God's Law at LEVITICUS.19:31 & 20:6 + 27, DEUT.18:9-14, eg by consulting bomoh/mediums to cast spells/charms/jampi and hexes upon others. Ignorant people see demon possession as just a mental disorder, eg schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, split personality disorder, madness, etc.
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Not everyone who is without the Holy Spirit is demon possessed. As per 1JOHN.5:18, the wicked one cannot touch anyone who has not sinned or done evil or broken God's Law, eg good-doing and law-abiding Jews, atheists, Buddhists, Muslims, etc, ie not just non-sinning Christians who are with the Holy Spirit..

So, MATTHEW.12:42-45 was likely referring to good-doing and OT-law-abiding Jews who could become demon-possessed by rejecting Jesus as the Christ/Messiah/Saviour and the Holy Spirit, eg like the demon-oppressed King Saul who committed occultic sins during the latter part of his life.
....... Also, during His 3-year ministry on earth, the Lord/God Jesus Christ healed or exorcised many demon-possessed and demon-oppressed Jews.
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This prophesy is more like referring to modern-day Pentecostalism and neo-Pentecostalism/Charismatics.
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What if a truly-saved Christian with the Holy Spirit dabbles in the occult because of ignorance, misguidance or false teachings/doctrines of demons (eg 1TIMOTHY.4:1-2), ie can he/she be demon-possessed or demon-oppressed.?
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 27 2024, 07:00 PM

I dont think you fully understood what I meant in my past replies
1. The Old Testament folks DO NOT have the Holy Spirit. Which explains the demonic possessions of the Jews. Hence explaining your Old Testament references
2. You quote 1 John 5:18, “ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.”
BORN OF GOD = has the Holy Spirit.
Again! If you are truly borned again, you will not be possessed
3. Similarly to this understanding of Matthew 12, it is referenced to ,” O generation of vipers..”. Not just Jews, gentiles too.. and most importantly it’s before the coming of the Holy Spirit. Hence demon possession will happen. Jesus have done all those but if you read clearly, it is for the sign as the Messiah. It had a purpose. And more importantly, it is also cos the victims DID NOT have the Holy Spirit.

But after the death and resurrection of Christ, the Holy Spirit dwells in those who believe and hence you can’t be possessed if you are truly saved

1 Timothy 4:1,2
It’s in reference to backsliding Christians that gives in. But none mentions about the Holy Spirit leaving. And even for those Christians, if you read on the verses of the entire cp.4, it explains to be of remembrance and repentance for such people, especially v.16

The CLEAREST explanation once more
Romans 8:9,” But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

Once you are saved, you are forever saved and Spirit dwells in you, FOREVER.
The only reason a ‘Christian’ is possessed is because the Spirit of Christ was never there to begin with


This post has been edited by zanness: Jul 28 2024, 01:37 PM

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https://www.gotquestions.org/lose-the-Holy-Spirit.html - Can You Lose The Holy Spirit?
.... Acts 2 describes the transition from the Old Testament economy to the New as it pertains to the Holy Spirit. The disciples were gathered for prayer, waiting for the promise of the Father, in obedience to Jesus (John 14:26; Acts 1:4, 8). As they prayed, the Holy Spirit fell upon them all and filled them (verse 3–4). Jesus’ promise was fulfilled, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit came upon all who had trusted in Christ. That outpouring resulted in courage in the face of opposition, love for all humanity, and supernatural gifts and abilities to further the gospel (1 Corinthians 12:4; Hebrews 2:4). ...

2TIMOTHY.1: = 13 Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.
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GALATIANS.3:2 = 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

= The Holy Spirit is received by Christians by faith in Christ.
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MATTHEW.10: = 32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

= cf: Peter denied Christ 3X (= he lost faith) before the cock crowed. The resurrected Jesus Christ had to "re-save" Peter by appearing to him after he had fled back to being a fisherman in his hometown.
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REVELATION.20: = Satan Bound 1,000 years ...

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years ....

Satanic Rebellion Crushed

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

= 1THESSALONIANS.4:16-17 prophesied the 2nd Coming of the Lord/God Jesus Christ to earth when He will destroy all unbelievers on earth after rapturing living Christians and resurrecting dead/asleep Christians.

Jesus will then create a new earth to rule over the Christians in peace for 1,000 years - the Millennial Kingdom.

REVELATION.20 above prophesy that some of these millennial Christians will be deceived by Satan at the end of the 1,000 years, eg because of complacency, forgetfulness, temptations, false teachings/doctrines of demons, demonic impersonation, etc = the raptured/resurrected Christians will lose faith in Christ = will lose the Holy Spirit.

So, if even millennial Christians can somehow lose faith in Christ (= lose the Holy Spirit) through Satan's/demons' deception, so too can today's true Christians lose the Holy Spirit by losing faith in Christ or denying/renouncing the faith, departing from the faith, etc. Correct.?
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P S - REVELATION.13:11-18 & 14:9 prophesy the powerful world governments will be mandating everyone to receive the mark-of-the-beast (computer chip implants.?), in order to buy or sell stuffs. Will even true Christians receive this mark = will lose salvation because they lose faith in Christ = will also lose the Holy Spirit.?

This will be a "sequel" to how most of the apostles of Christ were martyred for not obeying the Imperial decree to worship the Roman Emperor or his statue as God - MATTHEW.24:15.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 28 2024, 04:25 PM

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Seems you believe in the false doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved" or OSAS, .......

https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...ost&p=110126880 - How does one know they are saved?, And not going to hell? - RWI
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Seems like you lack exposure and comprehension of the Bible..

even in the past replies about losing the Holy Spirit.. I have numerous BIBLICAL VERSES which clearly explains about salvation… and NOT OPINIONS.. and if you think you can lose your salvation and there’s constant effort you contribute to retain your salvation, I would advice you to consider Ephesians 2:8-10.
And to all your lack of comprehensions in the above replies, I will attend to them once I’m more convenient, by God’s grace.

This post has been edited by zanness: Jul 28 2024, 05:50 PM

A seal can be broken or opened or unsealed. Eg .......

REVELATION.5: = The Lamb Takes the Scroll

5:1 And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals. 2 Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it. ...
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“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood ....
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DANIEL.12: = ... 8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?”

9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

= The prophesy of the "abomination of desolation" (= statue of the Roman Emperor set up in the Holy Temple of Jerusalem) was mentioned at MATTHEW.24:15.
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https://gowlingwlg.com/en/insights-resource...he-deed-is-done - 2011 - signed,-sealed-and-delivered: -the-deed-is-done
.... Traditionally, the execution and delivery of a deed was accompanied by much formality. Deeds had to be not only signed but also sealed (originally involving the use of sealing wax, more recently requiring red labels to be stuck onto the document). The parties to a deed had to speak certain words confirming that the deed had not only been signed but was also being delivered so as to become effective. ...
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By 1990, even the red seals or stickers became unnecessary. Instead, the law imposed a "face value requirement", in other words a deed had to make clear on its face that it was a deed. For example, the words "executed as a deed" in the document would suffice. ...
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Once a deed has been executed and delivered, it is binding and cannot be revoked unless either the parties agree to this (by way of a further deed) or there is provision in the deed permitting revocation by other means. ....

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Isn't WITHOUT FAITH or "no longer having faith" in Christ similar to a formerly true Christian losing faith in Christ or departing from the faith or denying/renouncing the faith.?, eg because of ignorance, following doctrines of demons/false teachings, etc.?
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 28 2024, 09:37 PM

I will take away all of the opinionated comments or from whoever that you referred from and ONLY use the BIBLE for explanation.
The Bible ALONE is sufficient, the ONE source of TRUTH that DOES NOT contradict itself.

Your quotes and arguments come from JAMES.
1. Book of JAMES is written by JAMES.
2. One of its main key verses is James 2:18-20.
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"
3. Interestingly, if you understand this enough, it says TRUE faith will bring WORKS.. but one that CLAIMS to have faith, false prophets, people that never truly was saved and WITHOUT the Holy Spirit, would not have works.

The rest of your commentary comments are without biblical basis with exception you brought up 1 Peter 1:5.
Understand 1 Peter 1:5
Read the ENTIRE 1 Peter
1 Peter 1:3-5
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
Read the verses and see in v4, clearly says? ,"... an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away.."
V5 obviously talks that these are the people kept by the power of GOD through FAITH unto SALVATION..
(which are also in reference that you can ONLY HAVE SALVATION WITH FAITH, with a false faith, you CANT),
READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIMES...
(and the salvation of our souls that we get to heaven.. read v9 and v10 ..)

Then your next reference of the bible is Hebrews 3:12. And AGAIN, Read from V1 or the entire Hebrews 3
Hebrews 3 is talking about Christians and their unbelieve. And Hebrews 3:11 is telling you the punishment of Israel for their unbelief.
But why ignore Hebrews 4 where it talks about believe with faith? Read Hebrews 4!
Key verses of Hebrews 4
v2," For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."
v10,"For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his."


and for your persistence on Deuteronomy 18:9-14, if you persist your works will save you.. You are living by works.. and by the law..
Galations 2:16,"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
If you persist to 'live by the law', you be JUDGED by the law..

Ephesians 2:8-9,"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."
NOT OF WORKS.. its a very straight forward verse.. you cant save yourself.. no amount of effort you do will save you.. we are all saved by faith and by grace!

in your final reply on Revelations 5
This is a seal locked with all our names inside.. and we are NOT WORTHY to open it because we are all BOUGHT WITH A PRICE..

Understand the Bible cannot contradict itself..
Understand John 10:28,"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
Understand Hebrews 10:26,"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"
Even the most fundamental John 3:16," ... but have EVERLASTING LIFE." not conditional life, not 'sometimes you would have' life,

The only wrong doctrine is because one believes in themselves and their own efforts.. the arrogance that the person can "WORK" his way to salvation by continuing to do works.. when the Bible has clearly said, NOTHING WE CAN DO EARNS OUR SALVATION, ONLY FAITH BY GRACE.


So in conclusion, can a 'Christian' be demon-possessed.

As consistent as the Bible is, YES.. if the 'Christian' was NEVER a Christian to begin with, and NEVER had the Holy Spirit..
He/She CLAIMS to be a Christian, done works as a Christian, but as the Bible says. Matthew 7:23,"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

and NO if the CHRISTIAN was TRULY SAVED.
Because, 1 John 4:4,"Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world."
Because 1 Corinthians 3:16," Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"
Because 2 Corinthians 6:16,"And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people"
Because Romans 8:9,"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his"
Because Ephesians 1:13,14,"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."


The Bible has ALL the answers and all the warnings of false prophets
1 John 4:1,"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

The internet has a lot of 'opinions'. but if they cant prove it from the Bible, then they remain as opinions and not the TRUTH

This post has been edited by zanness: Jul 29 2024, 09:39 AM

so, a quick question, is judas iscariot ever saved? if not, how holy spirit dwelled in him? and how he done miracle in the name of lord?

Very good question..
quick answer is Judas Iscariot is NOT SAVED. Matthew 26:24
And the Holy Spirit NEVER DWELLED in him. Not after the Pentecost.
John 14:26," But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." WILL SEND.. not I ALREADY sent
Acts 2:4,"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

And WHY he can do miracles in the name of the Lord?
Which is the same problem Churches don't preach this.. WHY?? but the Bible CLEARLY already states why..
Matthew 8:17,"That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses"
Matthew 12:23,"And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?"

All around the Gospel books, consistently, Jesus done miracles to fulfil Old Testament prophecies that He was the Messiah.
And the disciples back then was an extension of this purpose.

so he did do miracle in the name of the lord?

but holy spirit is present before pentecost. Psalm talk about holy spirit, even holy spirit is present when jesus is baptized

anyway

Hmmmm....James would disagree with you

You are right.. i stand corrected on my typo error

This post has been edited by zanness: Jul 29 2024, 09:43 AM

God in three persons; God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit.
All three have existed from the very beginning.
Genesis 1:2,"... the Spirit of God..."
Judges 3:10,6:34.. mentions the empowerment of the Spirit to do things..
1 Samuel 10:10, Spirit came upon Saul and David.

But this is not made permanent until after Jesus.
1 Corinthians 3:16
Acts 1:18

There was a transition once Jesus paid our price.. The Holy Spirit then dwells in those who were paid for permanently!

well, holy spirit is with believer in OT and only different now is 'permanent indwelling' after Pentecost. Holy spirit perform the same function in both OT and NT

for example, Exodus 31:2-5 ESV
"See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with ability and intelligence, with knowledge and all craftsmanship, to devise artistic designs, to work in gold, silver, and bronze, in cutting stones for setting, and in carving wood, to work in every craft.

to say Judas isn't with holy spirit is speculative at best based on pentecost verse

That's the similar understanding. But instead of saying it as speculative, i would say indicative.
Chronologically from John to Acts, we know the promised comforter and the Holy Spirit only came after Jesus went back up to heaven.
Judas died before that.

So indicatively, Judas would not have had the Holy Spirit.
Furthermore, during Judas death, humans still had a price not paid and Jesus was paying it at Hell.

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Fyi, it's not biblical to reject quoted commentaries by other mature Christians or "counselors". AFAIK, here at SK, Christians can discuss matters cordially. Only at RWI, Christians can debate matters heatedly against one another. .......

PROVERBS.11: = 14 Where there is no counsel, the people fall;
But in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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My opinions are also based on the Bible. The difference between our opinions is which of our opinion is more in line with the Word of God/Jesus or Bible. Eg, which one of us is misinterpreting, misquoting, quoting out-of-context or misusing the Bible.?

The verse at 1PETER.1:3-5, ie "To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you," was referring to those saints who will be in heaven, and not referring to "the people kept by the power of GOD through FAITH unto SALVATION." . Proof-verse, .......

1CORINTHIANS.15: (NKJV) = Our Final Victory

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
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Saved.

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My reposts fyi, ie there are a minority of new true Gentile Christian adults who are not able to do any good works or have done burned/useless works or have even ignorantly done evil works (eg by following false teachings), who can still be saved from hell by faith in Christ, ie not only mature true Christians who have done good works can be saved by faith. .......

https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...ost&p=109972483


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My repost about "saving faith", fyi, ie I do not believe in being saved from hell by good works but otoh, I do live by good works and avoid evil works/sins/law-breaking because DEUTERONOMY.28:1-14 and ROMANS.2:5-13 say that good-workers or law-abiding Christians will be blessed by God with a good and long life on earth, whereas salvation is solely by faith in Christ. .......

https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...ost&p=109784820
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Oh, glory be to Jehovah Jireh!

We finally have a worthy successor to UW, who has been MIA for God knows how long.

zanness truly demonstrates the wisdom from on high. A spiritual leader has finally stepped up to the plate.



Bro zanness, you will surely receive great rewards at the judgment seat. Pls continue demonstrating your biblical prowess.

We sure can do with you around.

This thread has come alive again, as surely as He who is risen. Indeed God be praised!