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 LYN Christian Fellowship Thread Ver 16, Welcome Christians, Love is the greatest

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SUSlurkingaround
post Feb 17 2024, 10:48 PM

Rule of Law
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QUOTE(petpenyubobo @ Apr 22 2023, 11:30 AM)
1) I questioned the idea of reincarnation and the removal of its existence in Christianity doctrines by the Roman Empire during Emperor Justinian times to impose absolute obedience of its people towards the religion he controlled.
He only wanted his people to belief that there's only 1 chance in your entire lifetime to redeem your sins and to go to heaven. Scholars say the idea of it was to to seek control over his citizens and the only way to salvation was to go through his established Church under the Emperor's command.

2) Also I asked about Christ's real appearance, His complexion, His background and origins of his birthplace.

and How is that deemed anti Christ?
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https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...ost&p=109168320 - Kopitiam thread - I really feel why people die die want to die - Today, 17 Feb 2024
QUOTE(petpenyubobo @ Feb 17 2024, 10:01 PM)
Why did you think the Roman Emperor, Justinian I removed all texts pertaining to reincarnation?

How and Why Reincarnation Scriptures Were Removed or Left Out from the Christian Bible?





Constantine Removed Reincarnation From The Bible
https://eternalbible.org/constantine-remove...from-the-bible/

The Roman Empire back then did not favor reincarnation because he wanted his people to believe that the way to heaven only via the church and with that tithes collection will pour in to his government because everyone wants to go to heaven and they'll be willing to pay to get the ticket pass. laugh.gif

Brainwashed sheep huh?
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Fyi, .......

https://www.christians.eu/reincarnation-bible/ - Was Reincarnation Removed from the Bible?
Many people claim that a certain council took the teaching of reincarnation out of the Bible. Although the majority cannot name the specific council, they most frequently refer to the Second Council of Constantinople (A.D. 553) and the Council of Nicaea (A.D. 325).

In reality, though, at that time there were already many manuscripts in existence spread throughout the Roman Empire, which makes it difficult to imagine how someone could have collected all the extant copies in order to have all of them “corrected”. Today there are many surviving manuscripts from the time before the councils, whose text accurately corresponds to the currently accepted text of the Bible. (See: “Selection of Ancient Manuscripts of the New Testament”)

There are also thousands of quotations of the New Testament in the writings of the Church Fathers from before the fourth century, which corroborate the reliability of the text of the Bible.

The two councils’ course of events is well documented by historians, and the records show that the subject of reincarnation was not addressed at all. Although the teaching of pre-existence (the existence of the soul before conception) was condemned by the Second Council of Constantinople (AD 553) in response to the teaching of Origen, the teaching of successive reincarnations is a separate matter and was not dealt with by the council. While many people think that Origen believed in reincarnation, he himself refutes this teaching in his commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (XIII.1): “…In this place it does not appear to me that by Elijah the soul is spoken of, lest I should fall into the dogma of transmigration1, which is foreign to the church of God, and not handed down by the Apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the Scriptures….” Several church fathers and early Christian authors confirm this opinion (e.g. Irenaeus: Against Heresies 2:33:1–2, Tertullian: Apology 48, Gregory of Nyssa: The Making of Man 28:3, etc.).

If reincarnation was really taken out of the Bible, it is not enough to assume that such passages were deleted from the Bible. The New Testament is interwoven with passages which speak about the fundamental Christian belief in Jesus’ resurrection and our own resurrection. All these passages referring to the teaching of resurrection (e.g. John 5:28–29), the last judgment (e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:10; Acts 24:15), eternal life and eternal condemnation (e.g. Matthew 25:46) would have to have been inserted, because the teaching of the last judgment clearly contradicts the idea of repeated reincarnations, through which people get a second, third (and so on) chance.

One passage in particular (Hebrews 9:27) clearly excludes the doctrine of reincarnation:

And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgement.…

The oldest extant manuscript containing this clear statement is Papyrus 46, a document written in the second century AD, long before the Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople. Since the Enlightenment the Bible has ceased to be the exclusive privilege of the clergy. Today’s critical Bible scholarship (e.g. archeology, textual studies) would not be at all interested in keeping silent on reincarnation if there were even a trace of this teaching in the ancient manuscripts of the Bible. Additionally, there are surely many scholars who would relish the fame resulting from such a sensation.

The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947 raised the hopes of many that evidence for the belief in reincarnation would finally be unearthed. However, the biblical manuscripts found there have been closely examined and published in English. They are now publicly available to everyone who wants to read them. They comprise the writings of a Jewish community, whose concept of the after-life corresponds to the teaching of the Old Testament that physical death is final and is the end of life on earth (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:23; 1 Kings 2:1–2; Genesis 25:8) and that the righteous will rise and be with God in eternity (e.g. Daniel 12:2–3).

Finally, we want to encourage everyone who is searching for the truth and is in any doubt regarding the authenticity of the Bible, to start reading it for yourself with an open heart. We believe and have also personally experienced that, if we are open to listen to them, the words of Jesus can touch us very deeply and can shape our life and our way of thinking.

Quoting from prophetjul 's reply-link to 'petpenyubobo"'s post above, ...
https://apologeticspress.org/reincarnation-...the-bible-1248/ - Reincarnation and the Bible
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SUSlurkingaround
post Jul 25 2024, 04:39 PM

Rule of Law
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QUOTE(zanness @ Jul 24 2024, 10:10 AM)
So many examples and verses in the Bible that proves, if you are saved, and a Christian, YOU WILL NOT BE POSSESSED...

the fact that you see a "demon possession' is because the person to begin with, IS NOT SAVED!
hence the fact the demon can enter the person's body because
1) The HOLY SPIRIT is not in him
2) The body is NOT GOD's Temple!!
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What about a newly saved Christian adult who somehow ignorantly committed sin by dabbling in the occult, later suffered terribly for the sin AND then lost faith in Christ or depart from the faith, ie will he/she be "demon-possessed".?

DEUTERONOMY.18:9-14 = Avoid Wicked Customs

9 “When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the Lord your God. 14 For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not appointed such for you.

1JOHN.5: = 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

MATTHEW.12: = ... 42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.

43 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 25 2024, 04:41 PM
SUSlurkingaround
post Jul 27 2024, 12:58 PM

Rule of Law
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QUOTE((lurkingaround @ Jul 25 2024, 04:39 PM)
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What about a newly saved Christian adult who somehow ignorantly committed sin by dabbling in the occult, later suffered terribly for the sin AND then lost faith in Christ or depart from the faith, ie will he/she be "demon-possessed".?

DEUTERONOMY.18:9-14 = Avoid Wicked Customs

9 “When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the Lord your God. 14 For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not appointed such for you.

1JOHN.5: = 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

MATTHEW.12: = ...  42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.

43 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”
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QUOTE(zanness @ Jul 27 2024, 10:40 AM)
The basis of "demon possession" is because the person has no holy spirit. If you are truly saved, you WILL have the Holy Spirit
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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QUOTE
The basis of "demon possession" is because the person has no holy spirit. If you are truly saved, you WILL have the Holy Spirit. ...

Deuteronomy 18:9-14, is Moses explaining about pagan worship. It shows the specific practices NOT to be done by ISRAEL. and following on, would also explain the well deserved punishment. I do not see the relevance of losing the Holy Spirit.

AFAIK, demon possession (= a curse from God) is the result of deep involvement in the occult or black magic, ie breaking God's Law at LEVITICUS.19:31 & 20:6 + 27, DEUT.18:9-14, eg by consulting bomoh/mediums to cast spells/charms/jampi and hexes upon others. Ignorant people see demon possession as just a mental disorder, eg schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, split personality disorder, madness, etc.
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QUOTE
Matthew 12:42, you are quoting what the examples Jesus mention in continuation to the coming of a greater prophet and the repentance from it. Jonas. Solomon.
and
Matthew 12:43, the state of the wicked generation (which is WITHOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT)

Not everyone who is without the Holy Spirit is demon possessed. As per 1JOHN.5:18, the wicked one cannot touch anyone who has not sinned or done evil or broken God's Law, eg good-doing and law-abiding Jews, atheists, Buddhists, Muslims, etc, ie not just non-sinning Christians who are with the Holy Spirit..

So, MATTHEW.12:42-45 was likely referring to good-doing and OT-law-abiding Jews who could become demon-possessed by rejecting Jesus as the Christ/Messiah/Saviour and the Holy Spirit, eg like the demon-oppressed King Saul who committed occultic sins during the latter part of his life.
....... Also, during His 3-year ministry on earth, the Lord/God Jesus Christ healed or exorcised many demon-possessed and demon-oppressed Jews.
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QUOTE
Matthew 7:22,23" Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

This prophesy is more like referring to modern-day Pentecostalism and neo-Pentecostalism/Charismatics.
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What if a truly-saved Christian with the Holy Spirit dabbles in the occult because of ignorance, misguidance or false teachings/doctrines of demons (eg 1TIMOTHY.4:1-2), ie can he/she be demon-possessed or demon-oppressed.?
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 27 2024, 07:00 PM
SUSlurkingaround
post Jul 28 2024, 02:43 PM

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QUOTE((lurkingaround @ Jul 25 2024, 04:39 PM)
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What about a newly saved Christian adult who somehow ignorantly committed sin by dabbling in the occult, later suffered terribly for the sin AND then lost faith in Christ or depart from the faith, ie will he/she be "demon-possessed".?

DEUTERONOMY.18:9-14 =
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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QUOTE(zanness @ Jul 28 2024, 01:01 PM)
I dont think you fully understood what I meant in my past replies
1. The Old Testament folks DO NOT have the Holy Spirit. Which explains the demonic possessions of the Jews. Hence explaining your Old Testament references
2. You quote 1 John 5:18, “ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.”
BORN OF GOD = has the Holy Spirit.
Again! If you are truly borned again, you will not be possessed
3. Similarly to this understanding of Matthew 12, it is referenced to ,” O generation of vipers..”. Not just Jews, gentiles too.. and most importantly it’s before the coming of the Holy Spirit. Hence demon possession will happen. Jesus have done all those but if you read clearly, it is for the sign as the Messiah. It had a purpose. And more importantly, it is also cos the victims DID NOT have the Holy Spirit.

But after the death and resurrection of Christ, the Holy Spirit dwells in those who believe and hence you can’t be possessed if you are truly saved

1 Timothy 4:1,2
It’s in reference to backsliding Christians that gives in. But none mentions about the Holy Spirit leaving. And even for those Christians, if you read on the verses of the entire cp.4, it explains to be of remembrance and repentance for such people, especially v.16

The CLEAREST explanation once more
Romans 8:9,” But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

Once you are saved, you are forever saved and Spirit dwells in you, FOREVER.
The only reason a ‘Christian’ is possessed is because the Spirit of Christ was never there to begin with
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https://www.gotquestions.org/lose-the-Holy-Spirit.html - Can You Lose The Holy Spirit?
.... Acts 2 describes the transition from the Old Testament economy to the New as it pertains to the Holy Spirit. The disciples were gathered for prayer, waiting for the promise of the Father, in obedience to Jesus (John 14:26; Acts 1:4, 8). As they prayed, the Holy Spirit fell upon them all and filled them (verse 3–4). Jesus’ promise was fulfilled, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit came upon all who had trusted in Christ. That outpouring resulted in courage in the face of opposition, love for all humanity, and supernatural gifts and abilities to further the gospel (1 Corinthians 12:4; Hebrews 2:4). ...

2TIMOTHY.1: = 13 Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.
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GALATIANS.3:2 = 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

= The Holy Spirit is received by Christians by faith in Christ.
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MATTHEW.10: = 32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

= cf: Peter denied Christ 3X (= he lost faith) before the cock crowed. The resurrected Jesus Christ had to "re-save" Peter by appearing to him after he had fled back to being a fisherman in his hometown.
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REVELATION.20: = Satan Bound 1,000 years ...

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years ....

Satanic Rebellion Crushed

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

= 1THESSALONIANS.4:16-17 prophesied the 2nd Coming of the Lord/God Jesus Christ to earth when He will destroy all unbelievers on earth after rapturing living Christians and resurrecting dead/asleep Christians.

Jesus will then create a new earth to rule over the Christians in peace for 1,000 years - the Millennial Kingdom.

REVELATION.20 above prophesy that some of these millennial Christians will be deceived by Satan at the end of the 1,000 years, eg because of complacency, forgetfulness, temptations, false teachings/doctrines of demons, demonic impersonation, etc = the raptured/resurrected Christians will lose faith in Christ = will lose the Holy Spirit.

So, if even millennial Christians can somehow lose faith in Christ (= lose the Holy Spirit) through Satan's/demons' deception, so too can today's true Christians lose the Holy Spirit by losing faith in Christ or denying/renouncing the faith, departing from the faith, etc. Correct.?
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P S - REVELATION.13:11-18 & 14:9 prophesy the powerful world governments will be mandating everyone to receive the mark-of-the-beast (computer chip implants.?), in order to buy or sell stuffs. Will even true Christians receive this mark = will lose salvation because they lose faith in Christ = will also lose the Holy Spirit.?

This will be a "sequel" to how most of the apostles of Christ were martyred for not obeying the Imperial decree to worship the Roman Emperor or his statue as God - MATTHEW.24:15.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 28 2024, 04:25 PM
SUSlurkingaround
post Jul 28 2024, 04:37 PM

Rule of Law
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QUOTE(zanness @ Jul 28 2024, 01:01 PM)
I dont think you fully understood what I meant in my past replies
1. The Old Testament folks DO NOT have the Holy Spirit. Which explains the demonic possessions of the Jews. Hence explaining your Old Testament references
2. You quote 1 John 5:18, “ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.”
BORN OF GOD = has the Holy Spirit.
Again! If you are truly borned again, you will not be possessed
3. Similarly to this understanding of Matthew 12, it is referenced to ,” O generation of vipers..”. Not just Jews, gentiles too.. and most importantly it’s before the coming of the Holy Spirit. Hence demon possession will happen. Jesus have done all those but if you read clearly, it is for the sign as the Messiah. It had a purpose. And more importantly, it is also cos the victims DID NOT have the Holy Spirit.

But after the death and resurrection of Christ, the Holy Spirit dwells in those who believe and hence you can’t be possessed if you are truly saved

1 Timothy 4:1,2
It’s in reference to backsliding Christians that gives in. But none mentions about the Holy Spirit leaving. And even for those Christians, if you read on the verses of the entire cp.4, it explains to be of remembrance and repentance for such people, especially v.16

The CLEAREST explanation once more
Romans 8:9,” But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

Once you are saved, you are forever saved and Spirit dwells in you, FOREVER.
The only reason a ‘Christian’ is possessed is because the Spirit of Christ was never there to begin with
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Seems you believe in the false doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved" or OSAS, .......

QUOTE(SharpSword @ Jul 22 2024, 05:08 PM)
Why do I care about uw. He is not posting false doctrine here like you. So accept the verdict no Christian will stand with you. Get out.
QUOTE((lurkingaround @ Jul 23 2024, 01:06 PM)
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Got la. UW falsely stated James was not referring to justification for salvation from hell when James said, "a man is justified by works and not by faith only",  "Abraham and Rahab were justified by works" - "faith without works is dead"., even though UW disagreed with James and agreed with Paul that justification for salvation is solely by faith in Christ.
....... Hence, UW still viewed James as teaching truth, ie do good works to be blessed/rewarded by God, eg with a good and long life on earth, as per the OT's DEUTERONOMY.28.

UW also taught the doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved" or OSAS, which is likely a presumptuous and false doctrine or teaching, eg as if UW has the eyes of God and Omni-present or can time travel, similar to your apostate view about how Abraham or other OT saints was saved from hell by his faith in God, .......

https://www.camdenarknews.com/news/2019/feb...n%20the%20Bible. - Looking at the doctrine of ‘once saved, always saved’
February 1, 2019
Religious Reflections

CAMDEN — By Rod Halliburton

The doctrine of “once saved, always saved” teaches that it is not possible for a child of God to sin in such a way that he will be lost. Many people, who undoubtedly are very sincere and possess a desire to do what is right, find tremendous comfort in this doctrine. This doctrine, however, is not taught in the Bible. It is an erroneous doctrine that provides a false comfort and a deceitful feeling of security.

First, let’s examine some of the passages often used to support this doctrine. Concerning the Christians in Asia Minor, Peter wrote “Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time” (I Peter 1:5).

How is it that Christians are kept, or guarded, unto salvation? Through their faith! It is possible for a Christian to lose his faith and quit believing in God. The author of the book of Hebrews warned his readers against the sin of unbelief (Hebrews 3:12). Don’t overlook the fact that the author was writing to people who were already Christians! ...
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https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...ost&p=110126880 - How does one know they are saved?, And not going to hell? - RWI
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SUSlurkingaround
post Jul 28 2024, 08:30 PM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Jul 25 2024, 04:39 PM)
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What about a newly saved Christian adult who somehow ignorantly committed sin by dabbling in the occult, later suffered terribly for the sin AND then lost faith in Christ or depart from the faith, ie will he/she be "demon-possessed".?

DEUTERONOMY.18:9-14 =
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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QUOTE(zanness @ Jul 27 2024, 10:40 AM)
The basis of "demon possession" is because the person has no holy spirit. If you are truly saved, you WILL have the Holy Spirit
Ephesians 1:13,"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise"
and when you have the Holy Spirit, ye are of God. and your body IS the Holy Temple.

A seal can be broken or opened or unsealed. Eg .......

REVELATION.5: = The Lamb Takes the Scroll

5:1 And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals. 2 Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it. ...
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“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood ....
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DANIEL.12: = ... 8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?”

9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

= The prophesy of the "abomination of desolation" (= statue of the Roman Emperor set up in the Holy Temple of Jerusalem) was mentioned at MATTHEW.24:15.
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https://gowlingwlg.com/en/insights-resource...he-deed-is-done - 2011 - signed,-sealed-and-delivered: -the-deed-is-done
.... Traditionally, the execution and delivery of a deed was accompanied by much formality. Deeds had to be not only signed but also sealed (originally involving the use of sealing wax, more recently requiring red labels to be stuck onto the document). The parties to a deed had to speak certain words confirming that the deed had not only been signed but was also being delivered so as to become effective. ...
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By 1990, even the red seals or stickers became unnecessary. Instead, the law imposed a "face value requirement", in other words a deed had to make clear on its face that it was a deed. For example, the words "executed as a deed" in the document would suffice. ...
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Once a deed has been executed and delivered, it is binding and cannot be revoked unless either the parties agree to this (by way of a further deed) or there is provision in the deed permitting revocation by other means. ....

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QUOTE((zanness)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Let's be clear.
Lack of faith WILL NOT remove the Holy Spirit.
Lack of faith WILL NOT remove your salvation.
WITHOUT FAITH, then you WILL NOT have the Holy Spirit, and WILL NOT have salvation.

Isn't WITHOUT FAITH or "no longer having faith" in Christ similar to a formerly true Christian losing faith in Christ or departing from the faith or denying/renouncing the faith.?, eg because of ignorance, following doctrines of demons/false teachings, etc.?
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QUOTE
Deuteronomy 18:9-14, is Moses explaining about pagan worship.
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 28 2024, 09:37 PM
SUSlurkingaround
post Jul 29 2024, 01:57 PM

Rule of Law
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QUOTE((lurkingaround @ Jul 28 2024, 04:37 PM)
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Seems you believe in the false doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved" or OSAS, .......

  https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...ost&p=110126880 - How does one know they are saved?, And not going to hell? - RWI
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QUOTE(zanness @ Jul 28 2024, 10:11 PM)
I will take away all of the opinionated comments or from whoever that you referred from and ONLY use the BIBLE for explanation.
The Bible ALONE is sufficient, the ONE source of TRUTH that DOES NOT contradict itself.

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Fyi, it's not biblical to reject quoted commentaries by other mature Christians or "counselors". AFAIK, here at SK, Christians can discuss matters cordially. Only at RWI, Christians can debate matters heatedly against one another. .......

PROVERBS.11: = 14 Where there is no counsel, the people fall;
But in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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QUOTE((zanness)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


The rest of your commentary comments are without biblical basis with exception you brought up 1 Peter 1:5.
Understand 1 Peter 1:5
Read the ENTIRE 1 Peter
1 Peter 1:3-5
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
Read the verses and see in v4, clearly says? ,"... an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away.."
V5 obviously talks that these are the people kept by the power of GOD through FAITH unto SALVATION..
(which are also in reference that you can ONLY HAVE SALVATION WITH FAITH, with a false faith, you CANT),
READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIMES...
(and the salvation of our souls that we get to heaven.. read v9 and v10 ..) 

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


The internet has a lot of 'opinions'. but if they cant prove it from the Bible, then they remain as opinions and not the TRUTH
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My opinions are also based on the Bible. The difference between our opinions is which of our opinion is more in line with the Word of God/Jesus or Bible. Eg, which one of us is misinterpreting, misquoting, quoting out-of-context or misusing the Bible.?

The verse at 1PETER.1:3-5, ie "To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you," was referring to those saints who will be in heaven, and not referring to "the people kept by the power of GOD through FAITH unto SALVATION." . Proof-verse, .......

1CORINTHIANS.15: (NKJV) = Our Final Victory

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
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SUSlurkingaround
post Jul 29 2024, 02:19 PM

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QUOTE(zanness @ Jul 28 2024, 10:11 PM)

Your quotes and arguments come from JAMES.
1. Book of JAMES is written by JAMES.
2. One of its main key verses is James 2:18-20.
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"
3. Interestingly, if you understand this enough, it says TRUE faith will bring WORKS.. but one that CLAIMS to have faith, false prophets, people that never truly was saved and WITHOUT the Holy Spirit, would not have works.

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My reposts fyi, ie there are a minority of new true Gentile Christian adults who are not able to do any good works or have done burned/useless works or have even ignorantly done evil works (eg by following false teachings), who can still be saved from hell by faith in Christ, ie not only mature true Christians who have done good works can be saved by faith. .......

QUOTE((lurkingaround @ Jun 24 2024, 02:26 PM)
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Your ownself may have lost your way, never mind, but pls don't mislead others into being lost also, ...
.... eg weaker new repentant Gentile Christian adults who are then not able to do any good works, eg quadriplegics, Death Row convicts, the physically or mentally disabled, drug-addicts, etc, ... or have done burned/useless works, eg by following false prophets/teachers like James, Kenneth Copeland, Kong Hee, etc, ... or have even foolishly done evil works/sins (intentional or unintentional.?), eg through ignorance, .... who can still be saved from hell as long as they have faith/belief in Jesus Christ until death - JOHN.3:14-21, LUKE.23:39-43, 1COR.3:15 & 5:1-5, EPH.2:8-10.
. .......
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https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...ost&p=109972483


QUOTE((lurkingaround @ Jul 8 2024, 02:55 PM)
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There are various different kinds of Christians who may be ignorant, misled, true/sincere and false Christians who may then do good works, evil works/sins, burned/useless works or not be able to do any good works; ... and may be repentant or unrepentant of their sins and non-good-works.
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The main point is, unrepentant Christian sinners will not be saved from hell because of unbelief or non-faith in Christ, not because of their sins or evil works. ... Conversely, repentant Christian sinners or non-sinners will be saved from hell by their faith or belief or trust in Christ, not by their good works or non-sins or their burned/useless works or their disability to do good works.

Otoh, OT Jews like the rich young Jew and his brothers in LUKE.16:19-31, were not saved from hell  because they had unrepentantly sinned or broken God's Law/commandments or Moses Law at DEUT.15:11 = they died and were not resurrected to have the opportunity to hear the risen Christ preached the gospel to them in 33AD. ... Only OT Jews who had kept the Law/commandments or repented of their sins had the opportunity to be resurrected to hear the risen Christ preached the gospel to them in 33AD = they were saved from hell by faith in Christ, eg Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, King David, Rahab, Elijah, etc.
.

Good works or bad/evil works that have been repented of, do not give salvation to heaven, rather it's saved from hell solely by faith in Christ ... and unrepented bad/evil works do not give non-salvation to hell, rather it's by unbelief or non-faith in Christ, .......

2CORINTHIANS.5:10 = 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

1COR.3: = 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
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SUSlurkingaround
post Jul 29 2024, 02:34 PM

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QUOTE(zanness @ Jul 28 2024, 10:11 PM)

and for your persistence on Deuteronomy 18:9-14, if you persist your works will save you.. You are living by works.. and by the law..
Galations 2:16,"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
If you persist to 'live by the law', you be JUDGED by the law..

Ephesians 2:8-9,"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."
NOT OF WORKS.. its a very straight forward verse.. you cant save yourself.. no amount of effort you do will save you.. we are all saved by faith and by grace!

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My repost about "saving faith", fyi, ie I do not believe in being saved from hell by good works but otoh, I do live by good works and avoid evil works/sins/law-breaking because DEUTERONOMY.28:1-14 and ROMANS.2:5-13 say that good-workers or law-abiding Christians will be blessed by God with a good and long life on earth, whereas salvation is solely by faith in Christ. .......

QUOTE((lurkingaround @ May 22 2024, 08:13 PM)
Seems you do not truly believe or have faith or trust in the promises and Word of God/Jesus with regards to justification for salvation by faith alone. Eg, .......

JOHN. = 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. ...

6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” ...

6:47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” ...

6:54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. ...

6:61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

1PETER.1: = 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

ROMANS.1: = 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

The just shall live by faith = the good workers of the Law shall live by faith, which faith-in-Christ has saved them from hell, and not saved by their good works (my interpretation).

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Fyi, .......

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/do...e-saving-faith/ - The Doctrine Of Saving Faith
DEFINITION

Saving faith is faith that not only knows and comprehends the facts about the gospel of Jesus Christ but also trusts in the person and work of Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

SUMMARY

While faith can be used in various ways, saving faith is faith that not only knows and comprehends the facts about the gospel of Jesus Christ but also trusts in the person and work of Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Historical faith understands the claims of Scripture, and temporary faith seems for a time to trust in them, but saving faith is a firm conviction and trust in the person and work of Christ. While demons understand and comprehend the facts about God and Jesus Christ, this faith causes them to tremble. For the Christian, faith leads to joy and confidence in the goodness and grace of God, which bestows salvation through Jesus Christ apart from works, even apart from the fruit (or good works of the Law) that flows from faith.

EPHESIANS.2: = 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
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https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...ost&p=109784820
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SUSlurkingaround
post Jul 29 2024, 03:14 PM

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QUOTE(zanness @ Jul 28 2024, 10:11 PM)

So in conclusion, can a 'Christian' be demon-possessed.

As consistent as the Bible is, YES.. if the 'Christian' was NEVER a Christian to begin with, and NEVER had the Holy Spirit..
He/She CLAIMS to be a Christian, done works as a Christian, but as the Bible says. Matthew 7:23,"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

and NO if the CHRISTIAN was TRULY SAVED.

Because, 1 John 4:4,"Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world."
Because 1 Corinthians 3:16," Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"
Because 2 Corinthians 6:16,"And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people"
Because Romans 8:9,"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his"
Because Ephesians 1:13,14,"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."
The Bible has ALL the answers and all the warnings of false prophets
1 John 4:1,"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

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MATTHEW.13: (NKJV) = The Parable of the Sower Explained

18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower:

19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

Are the 2nd and 3rd seed receivers true or false Christians before they lost the seed of faith in Christ.?
....... Lose seed of faith in Christ = lose the indwelling Holy Spirit = can be demon-possessed if break the Law at DEUTERONOMY.18:9-14/LEVITICUS.19:26
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PHILIPPIANS.2: = 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

If "true" Christians cannot ever lose faith or depart from the faith(1TIMOTHY.4:1) or deny/renounce the faith(MATTHEW.10:33), why did apostle Paul warn Christians to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.?
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SUSlurkingaround
post Jul 29 2024, 03:50 PM

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QUOTE((lurkingaround @ Jul 29 2024, 01:57 PM)
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Fyi, it's not biblical to reject quoted commentaries by other mature Christians or "counselors". AFAIK, here at SK, Christians can discuss matters cordially. Only at RWI, Christians can debate matters heatedly against one another. .......

PROVERBS.11: = 14 Where there is no counsel, the people fall;
But in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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My opinions are also based on the Bible. The difference between our opinions is which of our opinion is more in line with the Word of God/Jesus or Bible. Eg, which one of us is misinterpreting, misquoting, quoting out-of-context or misusing the Bible.?
.

The verse at 1PETER.1:3-5, ie "To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you," was referring to those saints who will be in heaven, and not referring to "the people kept by the power of GOD through FAITH unto SALVATION."  . Proof-verse, .......

1CORINTHIANS.15: (NKJV) = Our Final Victory

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
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QUOTE(zanness @ Jul 29 2024, 03:10 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


If your opinions are biblically based, show me the verses and i show you your lack of understanding.
1PETER.1:3-5
So technically you are saying 1 Peter 1: v3 is addressed to one group of people? and suddenly v4 is to a DIFFERENT group?
If this is how you understand the Bible, then it explains why you dont understand it. 
QUOTE(zanness)
Understand 1 Peter 1:5
Read the ENTIRE 1 Peter
1 Peter 1:3-5
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
Read the verses and see in v4, clearly says? ,"... an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away.."
V5 obviously talks that these are the people kept by the power of GOD through FAITH unto SALVATION..

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Before inheriting the coming kingdom of heaven, today there are about 2 billion Christians on this rotten earth. Not all these Christians will be "kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation." = some of these Christians may lose faith in Christ, depart from the faith, deny/renounce the faith, etc.
....... So, there are Christians in 2 different eras, ie before and after the 2nd Coming of the Lord/God Jesus Christ (from heaven) to earth. .......

1THESSALONIANS.4:15-18 = 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Cf; .......

QUOTE((zanness)
1 Corinthians 15:
Have you actually READ IT?
1 Corinthians 15:2,"By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."
1 Corinthians 15:50,"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
V49?,"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly."
V53?,"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

You quote these verses but event in NKJV, have you read and understood it?
we SHALL BE CHANGED!.. SHALL BE!! Thats why in v50, we CANT inherit the kingdom of God UNTIL we be changed!

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


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No la, saints will be changed from corruptible to incorruptible and from mortality to immortality after the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ to earth, not before or as you stated, ".we SHALL BE CHANGED!.. SHALL BE!! Thats why in (1COR.15)v50, we CANT inherit the kingdom of God UNTIL we be changed!" = you are misinterpreting the Bible.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 29 2024, 03:54 PM
SUSlurkingaround
post Jul 29 2024, 04:10 PM

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QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 29 2024, 08:02 AM)
so, a quick question, is judas iscariot ever saved? if not, how holy spirit dwelled in him? and how he done miracle in the name of lord?
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Judas Iscariot was never saved from hell since salvation of believing earthlings only started after the resurrection of Christ in 33AD, ie Judas hung himself to death even before Christ was crucified - MATTHEW.27: .......

JOHN.17: = Jesus Prays for His Disciples

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 29 2024, 04:12 PM
SUSlurkingaround
post Jul 29 2024, 04:17 PM

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QUOTE((lurkingaround @ Jul 29 2024, 04:10 PM)
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Judas Iscariot was never saved from hell since salvation of believing earthlings only started after the resurrection of Christ in 33AD, ie Judas hung himself to death even before Christ was crucified - MATTHEW.27: .......

JOHN.17: = Jesus Prays for His Disciples

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
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zanness , ....... If an apostle of Christ who spent >3 years with Him, can somehow be forever lost or lost faith in Christ, why can't a member of Christ or Christian also somehow lose faith in Christ.?

Any idea why Judas Iscariot became lost.?
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SUSlurkingaround
post Jul 29 2024, 04:37 PM

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QUOTE((lurkingaround @ Jul 29 2024, 03:14 PM)
.
MATTHEW.13: (NKJV) = The Parable of the Sower Explained

18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower:

19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

Are the 2nd and 3rd seed receivers true or false Christians before they lost the  seed of faith in Christ.?
....... Lose seed of faith in Christ = lose the indwelling Holy Spirit = can be demon-possessed if break the Law at DEUTERONOMY.18:9-14/LEVITICUS.19:26
.

PHILIPPIANS.2: = 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

If "true" Christians cannot ever lose faith or depart from the faith(1TIMOTHY.4:1) or deny/renounce the faith(MATTHEW.10:33), why did apostle Paul warn Christians to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.?
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QUOTE(zanness @ Jul 29 2024, 03:43 PM)
The beauty of God is when you read His word, His word rebukes you right at the spot..
You quote Matthew 13: The parable of the seed.
Consider this.
Matthew 13: 13,"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."
Matthew 13: 19,"When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side"
The Parable of the seed is telling you to differentiate seeds that are ROOTED in the WORD OF GOD.. vs those who only HEAR the word of God and dont seek UNDERSTANDING..

You already paste the verses yourself, read it.. understand it.. there has been NO ROOT IN GOD! HENCE THERE HAS BEEN.. NO HOLY SPIRIT!


I was asking about the 2nd and 3rd seed receivers, not about the 1st seed receiver.
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QUOTE((zanness)
Philippians 2:12, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
Wherefore... Means a continuation from the previous verses... explaining the highly position of JESUS
V9, V10,"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
But why stop at v12? READ ON..
V13,"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

YOU CANT SAVE YOURSELF! IT IS GOD! GOD ONLY! 

,
So, Christians do not need to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling" and just let God do the work for them.?
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QUOTE((zanness)
and you ask why fear? why trembling?
Do you know what fear is in the Bible as well ?
Proverbs 9:10
Fear is also mentioned numerous times as a form of humility and obedience.. not because you lose your salvation!
2 Corinthians 7:1, "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."
1 Timothy 4:1 - Yes, people depart from faith... but YOU put words into the verses to say they lose their salvation?
and if you TRULY read Matthew 10:33,"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven"
denies:
ἀρνήσηταί (arnēsētai)
This is the word for “disown: (“whoever disowns me”) is an aorist tense.
The aorist tense looks at a person’s life “globally”—a lifetime. Hence, the one who throughout his life denies or disowns Christ (as the Pharisees) will be disowned before the Father
READ IT UP!
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Are you saying Christian apostates who depart from the faith will not lose their salvation in Christ.?

Fyi, during Japanese colonial rule over Korea in the early 1900s, the Japanese government required Koreans to publicly worship the Japanese Emperor as God. Many Korean Christians were martyred and/or jailed for refusing to do so because to do so would have meant publicly denying Jesus Christ as the Lord/God.
....... This historical event proves your misinterpretation of the word "deny" in MATTHEW.10:33.

Like I said before, REVELATION.13:11-18 & 14:9 prophesy a similar "coming soon" event about the mark-of-the-beast (computer chip implants.?) which will be mandated by the world governments, when some Christians will also be martyred for their faith in Christ.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 29 2024, 04:40 PM
SUSlurkingaround
post Jul 29 2024, 04:58 PM

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QUOTE((lurkingaround @ Jul 29 2024, 03:50 PM)
.
Before inheriting the coming kingdom of heaven, today there are about 2 billion Christians on this rotten earth. Not all these Christians will be "kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation." = some of these Christians may lose faith in Christ, depart from the faith, deny/renounce the faith, etc.
....... So, there are Christians in 2 different eras, ie before and after the 2nd Coming of the Lord/God Jesus Christ (from heaven) to earth. .......

1THESSALONIANS.4:15-18 = 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Cf; .......
.
No la, saints will be changed from corruptible to incorruptible and from mortality to immortality after the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ to earth, not before or as you stated, ".we SHALL BE CHANGED!.. SHALL BE!! Thats why in (1COR.15)v50, we CANT inherit the kingdom of God UNTIL we be changed!" = you are misinterpreting the Bible.
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QUOTE(zanness @ Jul 29 2024, 04:38 PM)
Unless you can back up those comments with Bible verses. ill only answer to those that has one. More than likely, you were preached to on those ideas.. and never had to read the Bible to FACT CHECK them.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18.
But why ignore v13,14 ?," But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him"
Clearly in reference from Paul addressing church in Thessalonica. And in that context, Christians who are still alive against Christians who are asleep. Nothing to suggest you LOSE your salvation along the way.

You keep highlighting ONLY SAINTS..
That is your opinion. No Bible verse mentions it.
Read the Bible
V53,"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."
Philippians 3:20-21,"Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." and mind you this was written to the believers in Philippi

You have raised so many opinions and tried so hard throwing verses after verses you do not understand..
but somehow conveniently ignored EVERYTHING that states the opposite of what you are told to believe at.. and EVERYTHING I've said so far.. is merely QUOTING you BIBLE VERSES!
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Fyi, OT Jews and NT Christians who will be saved from hell are also called saints in the Bible. .......

REVELATION.14:12 = 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

REV.17:6 = 6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

PSALM.116:15 = Precious in the sight of the Lord
Is the death of His saints.

MATTHEW.27: = 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

ROMANS.8:27 = 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
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SUSlurkingaround
post Jul 29 2024, 05:17 PM

Rule of Law
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Senior Member
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Joined: Sep 2019
From: South Klang Valley suburb
QUOTE((lurkingaround @ Jul 29 2024, 04:17 PM)
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zanness , ....... If an apostle of Christ who spent >3 years with Him, can somehow be forever lost or lost faith in Christ, why can't a member of Christ or Christian also somehow lose faith in Christ.?

Any idea why Judas Iscariot became lost.?
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QUOTE(zanness @ Jul 29 2024, 04:44 PM)
Remember my reply I've explained a few post ago on WHY MIRACLES WERE DONE???
your assumption is that Judas HAD the Holy Spirit to begin with when it was only clear in ACTS after the Jesus went back to Heaven, that the HOLY SPIRIT truly dwelled in..

You cant LOSE something, if you DONT HAVE IT to begin with.

Judas was never lost. He betrayed Jesus and did not believe who Jesus was.
Matthew 27:4,Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that."
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My take on this is that MAYBE, after spending >3 years with Jesus Christ with full of prophesies coming true, miracles, signs and wonders, Judas Iscariot, as His treasurer, thought that his betrayal of Christ for 30 silvers would come to nothing since he was over-confident that somehow Jesus (= God-in-the-flesh) would miraculously escape from His persecutors, ie Jesus would not die on the Cross. Unfortunately for Judas, God had other plans.
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MATTHEW.26: = Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial

31 Then Jesus said to them, “All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written:

‘I will strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’

32 But after I have been raised, I will go before you to Galilee.”

33 Peter answered and said to Him, “Even if all are made to stumble because of You, I will never be made to stumble.”

34 Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you that this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.”

35 Peter said to Him, “Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You!”

And so said all the disciples.

If all the other 11 apostles could stumble and deny Christ 3X or lost faith in Christ, why can't a member of Christ or Christian also may do the same, ie lose faith in Christ, eg curse God and die - like the wife of Job at JOB.2:9.?
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 29 2024, 05:18 PM
SUSlurkingaround
post Jul 29 2024, 05:40 PM

Rule of Law
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Senior Member
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Joined: Sep 2019
From: South Klang Valley suburb
QUOTE(zanness @ Jul 29 2024, 04:38 PM)
Unless you can back up those comments with Bible verses. ill only answer to those that has one. More than likely, you were preached to on those ideas.. and never had to read the Bible to FACT CHECK them.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18.
But why ignore v13,14 ?," But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him"
Clearly in reference from Paul addressing church in Thessalonica. And in that context, Christians who are still alive against Christians who are asleep. Nothing to suggest you LOSE your salvation along the way.

You keep highlighting ONLY SAINTS..
That is your opinion. No Bible verse mentions it.
Read the Bible
V53,"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."
Philippians 3:20-21,"Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." and mind you this was written to the believers in Philippi

You have raised so many opinions and tried so hard throwing verses after verses you do not understand..
but somehow conveniently ignored EVERYTHING that states the opposite of what you are told to believe at.. and EVERYTHING I've said so far.. is merely QUOTING you BIBLE VERSES!
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QUOTE((lurkingaround @ Jul 29 2024, 04:58 PM)
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Fyi, OT Jews and NT Christians who will be saved from hell are also called saints in the Bible. .......
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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QUOTE((lurkingaround @ Jul 29 2024, 01:57 PM)
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» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
Proof-verse, .......

1CORINTHIANS.15: (NKJV) = Our Final Victory

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
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QUOTE((lurkingaround @ Jul 29 2024, 03:50 PM)
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» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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No la, saints will be changed from corruptible to incorruptible and from mortality to immortality after the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ to earth, not before or as you stated, ".we SHALL BE CHANGED!.. SHALL BE!! Thats why in (1COR.15)v50, we CANT inherit the kingdom of God UNTIL we be changed!" = you are misinterpreting the Bible.
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Are you saying those Christians referred by apostle Paul at 1CORINTHIANS.15:50-54 were not saints.?
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SUSlurkingaround
post Jul 29 2024, 06:17 PM

Rule of Law
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Senior Member
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Joined: Sep 2019
From: South Klang Valley suburb
QUOTE(zanness @ Jul 29 2024, 05:28 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

Saints have the Holy Spirit, I'm sure you can agree on that.
Saints are saved Christians, we all agree..
Saints DO NOT LOSE their salvation, You dont agree.. and you cant find a bible verse that supports or explains it when i've showed you from the Bible many many many references that i didnt even have to explain.. the verses were self-explanatory
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No la. I believe even saints or "true" Christians can lose faith = lose salvation if they are over-confident, not sober, vigilant, careful, wary, etc. And if such were to then dabble in the occult, they can become demon-possessed or demon-oppressed like King Saul.
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1CORINTHIANS.9:27 = 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
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HEBREWS.3: = 12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. ...
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If saints or "true" Christians do not or cannot lose salvation by losing faith in Christ, why did the apostle Paul warn them about unbelief or losing belief/faith/trust in God or in Jesus Christ.?
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2PETER.1: = 5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; ...

= "true" Christians can stumble and lose their salvation/election by not diligently doing the good works that are the fruits of faith in Christ. .......

QUOTE((lurkingaround @ Jul 29 2024, 05:17 PM)
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» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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MATTHEW.26: = Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial

31 Then Jesus said to them, “All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written:

‘I will strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’

32 But after I have been raised, I will go before you to Galilee.”

33 Peter answered and said to Him, “Even if all are made to stumble because of You, I will never be made to stumble.”

34 Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you that this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.”

35 Peter said to Him, “Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You!”

And so said all the disciples.

If all the other 11 apostles could stumble and deny Christ 3X or lost faith in Christ, why can't a member of Christ or Christian also may do the same, ie lose faith in Christ, eg curse God and die - like the wife of Job at JOB.2:9.?
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 29 2024, 06:20 PM
SUSlurkingaround
post Jul 29 2024, 07:42 PM

Rule of Law
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Senior Member
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Joined: Sep 2019
From: South Klang Valley suburb
QUOTE((lurkingaround @ Jul 29 2024, 06:17 PM)
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No la. I believe even saints or "true" Christians can lose faith = lose salvation if they are over-confident, not sober, vigilant, careful, wary, etc. And if such were to then dabble in the occult, they can become demon-possessed or demon-oppressed like King Saul.
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1CORINTHIANS.9:27 = 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
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» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


= "true" Christians can stumble and lose their salvation/election by not diligently doing the good works that are the fruits of faith in Christ. .......
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QUOTE(zanness @ Jul 29 2024, 07:07 PM)
You quote from 1 Corinthians 9:27 and interestingly the entire chapter is talking about not living through the law but through the GOSPEL of Christ.
and "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."
But dont ignore v24,"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain."
V27,"..castaway" is in reference to NOT RECEIVING A REWARD at the judgement seat of Christ.
We are NOT REWARDED IN SALVATION! again.. if you insist v27 is for losing salvation, you contradict the Bible but fortunately for you, its not the Bible but your understanding.


1COR.9: = 24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

REVELATION.2:10 = 10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
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No la. The "disqualified" or "castaway" refers to salvation unto the kingdom of heaven, and not in reference to NOT RECEIVING A REWARD at the judgement seat of Christ, ... ie "an imperishable crown" = "the crown of life" by faith in Christ = not "the crown reward".

You are misinterpreting 1CORINTHIANS.9:24-27, as with the other Scripture below wrt "true" Christians can lose faith = lose salvation, eg by giving the excuse that those were false Christians or just referring to Christians who backslided, etc.
.

Also, please show that "the entire chapter is talking about not living through the law but through the GOSPEL of Christ. "

QUOTE((zanness)
Hebrews 3:12, Nothing in that verse suggest losing salvation, but backsliding christians? YES!

2 Peter 1:10," Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
See the difference?
and yet still, NOTHING, not a single thing suggests you lose your salvation.
In fact, 2 Peter 1:10 is VERY CONSISTENT With JAMES 2:18,"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."
Its merely to pronounce you will not stray away from the right faith.

Again, you have still yet shown ANY VERSE, ANY AT ALL, that suggests a TRULY SAVED Christian losing their salvation..
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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MATTHEW.24: = 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 29 2024, 07:57 PM
SUSlurkingaround
post Jul 30 2024, 12:38 PM

Rule of Law
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Joined: Sep 2019
From: South Klang Valley suburb
QUOTE((lurkingaround @ Jul 29 2024, 07:42 PM)
1COR.9: = 24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

REVELATION.2:10 = 10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
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No la. The "disqualified" or "castaway" refers to salvation unto the kingdom of heaven, and not in reference to NOT RECEIVING A REWARD at the judgement seat of Christ, ... ie "an imperishable crown" = "the crown of life" by faith in Christ = not "the crown reward".

You are misinterpreting 1CORINTHIANS.9:24-27, as with the other Scripture below wrt "true" Christians can lose faith = lose salvation, eg by giving the excuse that those were false Christians or just referring to Christians who backslided, etc.
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» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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QUOTE(zanness @ Jul 29 2024, 10:00 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


And Revelations 2:10,"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."
Unto the churches of Smyrna facing persecution.
1. After rapture, there will STILL be CHRISTIANS.
2. There's a strong debate these letters may be for those or even for types of Churches in today's modern world.
3. There are a few TYPES OF CROWNS in the Bible (Crown of Life, Crown of Righteousness, Crown of Glory, Crown of Rejoicing, and a many others)
and with all our crowns,
Revelation 4:10,"The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,"
It gives you an idea, how crowns are used in Heaven.. to be casted to God as an ultimate worship and surrender..
Now you're saying you're 'casting' the 'crown of Life AKA SALVATION'??  to GOD??
Does it make sense ?  OF COURSE NOT! because REVELATIONS 2:10 is literally talking about A CROWN!

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2TIMOTHY.4: = Paul’s Valedictory

6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

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HEBREWS.11 & 12 = By Faith We Understand

11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. ...
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39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

The Race of Faith

12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith , who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
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= the Word of God/Jesus or Bible verses above show you are misinterpreting apostle Paul's "the race" and "the crown" as just a heavenly reward when they truly says "an imperishable crown" = salvation unto heaven
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QUOTE((zanness)
QUOTE((lurkingaround)
MATTHEW.24: = 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.  


Matthew 24:21-25
Matthew 24:3,"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
Clearly the context of end of times!
And you quoted because I quote to you verses from the BIBLE while you argue on opinions?

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The End Times refers to the times just before the 2nd Coming of the Lord/God Jesus Christ (from heaven) to earth and the Great Tribulations affecting "the elect" (eg persecutions, sufferings, martyrdom, etc) will happen before His Coming.

So, 2PETER.1:10's "election" refers to salvation from hell.

AFAIK, the Great Tribulations will last 7 years and Jesus Christ will come in the middle 3.5th year to rapture living Christians suffering persecution, imprisonment, starvation, about to be martyred, etc. By the 7th year, this rotten earth and all the remaining unbelievers on it will be destroyed by Jesus ala the Great Flood of Noah. Jesus will create a new earth for His faithful Christian believers.
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QUOTE((zanness)
Even with ALL the verses you quote ,NONE clearly says you lose your salvation.
At the least it merely shows your lack of understanding to the verse itself..
Even with Revelation 2:10, yes a crown, NO YOU DONT LOSE IT!

The Bible is the same yesterday, today, forever..
The words are the similar regardless which version.. but your salvation is yours.. if you're happy with your understanding that has no biblical basis.. go ahead...
Matthew 10:14,15"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet."

My responsibility is to tell you the truth.. I might be wrong.. hence I'm here... for others to tell me the truth... TRUTH BASED ON THE BIBLE!
Now my every verse and reply has a bibilical basis and explanation.. somehow, you have ignored all of my past replies with those bible verses, and throw more verses in, of which I gladly explain again.. yet was ignored, and rebutted my more verses of which I did the same..

So, if i'm Biblically wrong.. i suggest you do the same.. prove it FROM THE BIBLE..
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If you can be wrong about your opinions of the Bible, you can also be wrong about your opinion that "true" Christians cannot be demon-possessed because they will never lose the indwelling Holy Spirit that came by faith in Christ = they will never lose faith = never lose salvation.

If even the apostles of Christ could betray Him, deny Him 3X before the cock crowed and stumble in their faith in Christ, eg after Christ was crucified, all the apostles fled back to their hometowns in despair and disillusionment (= the resurrected Christ had to call them back into faith), ... "true" Christians can also lose faith in Christ if they are too cocky, ignorant, not careful, sober, vigilant (eg about Satan's deceptions), diligent, etc.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 30 2024, 12:47 PM
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