If you think your works and effort sustains your salvation, and thats your reward.. then you are not doing enough.. Jesus has clearly said
Matthew 5:17," Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
Jesus was here to fulfil the law, that no man be JUDGED by works/LAW but only by Faith and Grace.

But in your persistence to do good.. you're not good enough..
Matthew 5:20,"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Acts 4:12,"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Acts 16:30,31,"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."
So, was it Believe and DO GOOD WORKS? Believe and CONTINUE TO DO GOOD WORKS?
NO!
the ONLY word was BELIEVE!
Acts 16:34,"And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house."

ONLY BELIEVE!!

2 Timothy 1:9,"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"
NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS!!
NO!!!

So, if you so strongly believe your works can sustain your salvation, are you saying 2 Timothy 1:9 is CONDITIONAL? is NOT COMPLETE?
NO!!
The Bible DOES NOT CONTRADICT itself..

your understanding is MUST be Bible based

1COR.9: = 24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

REVELATION.2:10 = 10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
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No la. The "disqualified" or "castaway" refers to salvation unto the kingdom of heaven, and not in reference to NOT RECEIVING A REWARD at the judgement seat of Christ, ... ie "an imperishable crown" = "the crown of life" by faith in Christ = not "the crown reward".

You are misinterpreting 1CORINTHIANS.9:24-27, as with the other Scripture below wrt "true" Christians can lose faith = lose salvation, eg by giving the excuse that those were false Christians or just referring to Christians who backslided, etc.
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Also, please show that "the entire chapter is talking about not living through the law but through the GOSPEL of Christ. "

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MATTHEW.24: = 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 29 2024, 07:57 PM

Paul defending his Apostleship
1 Corinthians 9:1 ,"Am I am not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?"
Once again, Paul questioning why are you NOT FREE FROM THE LAW!!
1 Corinthians 9:3,"Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,"

Paul Explaining this material supports from everyday life and scripture
1 Corinthians 9:7-14

Paul Explaining why he has not used his rights
1 Corinthians 9:14-18

Paul Describing ADAPTABILITY in MINISTRY comparing with athletes
Read the verses and check it up.. Its talking about comparisons to a RACE!
1 Corinthians 9:24-27
1 Corinthians 9:27,"...BODY!!!!???" Take note of "...BUT!!!"
All the verses are SELF EXPLANATORY!

And Revelations 2:10,"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."
Unto the churches of Smyrna facing persecution.
1. After rapture, there will STILL be CHRISTIANS.
2. There's a strong debate these letters may be for those or even for types of Churches in today's modern world.
3. There are a few TYPES OF CROWNS in the Bible (Crown of Life, Crown of Righteousness, Crown of Glory, Crown of Rejoicing, and a many others)
and with all our crowns,
Revelation 4:10,"The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,"
It gives you an idea, how crowns are used in Heaven.. to be casted to God as an ultimate worship and surrender..
Now you're saying you're 'casting' the 'crown of Life AKA SALVATION'?? to GOD??
Does it make sense ? OF COURSE NOT! because REVELATIONS 2:10 is literally talking about A CROWN!

Matthew 24:21-25
Matthew 24:3,"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
Clearly the context of end of times!
And you quoted because I quote to you verses from the BIBLE while you argue on opinions?

Even with ALL the verses you quote ,NONE clearly says you lose your salvation.
At the least it merely shows your lack of understanding to the verse itself..
Even with Revelation 2:10, yes a crown, NO YOU DONT LOSE IT!

The Bible is the same yesterday, today, forever..
The words are the similar regardless which version.. but your salvation is yours.. if you're happy with your understanding that has no biblical basis.. go ahead...
Matthew 10:14,15"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet."

My responsibility is to tell you the truth.. I might be wrong.. hence I'm here... for others to tell me the truth... TRUTH BASED ON THE BIBLE!
Now my every verse and reply has a bibilical basis and explanation.. somehow, you have ignored all of my past replies with those bible verses, and throw more verses in, of which I gladly explain again.. yet was ignored, and rebutted my more verses of which I did the same..

So, if i'm Biblically wrong.. i suggest you do the same.. prove it FROM THE BIBLE..

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2TIMOTHY.4: = Paul’s Valedictory

6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

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HEBREWS.11 & 12 = By Faith We Understand

11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. ...
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39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

The Race of Faith

12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith , who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
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= the Word of God/Jesus or Bible verses above show you are misinterpreting apostle Paul's "the race" and "the crown" as just a heavenly reward when they truly says "an imperishable crown" = salvation unto heaven
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The End Times refers to the times just before the 2nd Coming of the Lord/God Jesus Christ (from heaven) to earth and the Great Tribulations affecting "the elect" (eg persecutions, sufferings, martyrdom, etc) will happen before His Coming.

So, 2PETER.1:10's "election" refers to salvation from hell.

AFAIK, the Great Tribulations will last 7 years and Jesus Christ will come in the middle 3.5th year to rapture living Christians suffering persecution, imprisonment, starvation, about to be martyred, etc. By the 7th year, this rotten earth and all the remaining unbelievers on it will be destroyed by Jesus ala the Great Flood of Noah. Jesus will create a new earth for His faithful Christian believers.
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If you can be wrong about your opinions of the Bible, you can also be wrong about your opinion that "true" Christians cannot be demon-possessed because they will never lose the indwelling Holy Spirit that came by faith in Christ = they will never lose faith = never lose salvation.

If even the apostles of Christ could betray Him, deny Him 3X before the cock crowed and stumble in their faith in Christ, eg after Christ was crucified, all the apostles fled back to their hometowns in despair and disillusionment (= the resurrected Christ had to call them back into faith), ... "true" Christians can also lose faith in Christ if they are too cocky, ignorant, not careful, sober, vigilant (eg about Satan's deceptions), diligent, etc.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 30 2024, 12:47 PM

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ISAIAH.9:6 = 6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

PROVERBS.12 = 12:20 Deceit is in the heart of those who devise evil,
But counselors of peace have joy.

EZRA.7:14 = 14 And whereas you are being sent by the king and his seven counselors to inquire concerning Judah and Jerusalem, with regard to the Law of your God which is in your hand; ...

2CHRONICLES.22:4 = . 4 Therefore he did evil in the sight of the Lord, like the house of Ahab; for they were his counselors after the death of his father, to his destruction.

= no la. You are misinterpreting "counselors" as the Word of God or God's Law/commandments.
....... Jesus the Word (JOHN.1:1 & 14) = Counselor =/= Counselors.

The Bible often refers to counselors as people who could be good or evil counselors, ... and often refers to God's Law as good counsel.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 30 2024, 01:14 PM

[quote=lurkingaround,Jul 30 2024, 12:38 PM]
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2 Timothy 4:6 + Revelation 4:10,"The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,"
The verses are self explanatory.. Your assumption is crown of righteousness is salvation.. and if so, good luck explaining Rev. 4:10..

God works in miraculous ways. Thank you for bringing up Hebrews 11 and 12. Because it seems you dont fully understand it.
HEBREWS.11 & 12
Hebrews 11:1,"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
HOPE FOR.. not WORK FOR!! Tq for sharing it.. but please UNDERSTAND it.. your good works.. dont SUSTAIN your faith.. at most, your good works.. PROVE your FAITH (According to James)
And the whole Hebrews 11 is explaining how FAITH ALONE.. is ENOUGH.. not their WORKS to MAINTAIN their Faith.
Hebrews 12:1,"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"
WHEREFORE.. A continuation from the previous chapter of EVIDENCES of FAITH ALONE..
WHEREFORE..THEN LAY ASIDE EVERY WAIT AND THE SIN WHCIH DOTH SO EASILTY BESET US..
Even in Hebrews 12:1 Paul is saying Sin will never go away, you will fall.. but nothing says YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATION!!
Just read those words! Not my words but THE BIBLE!

So what doctrine are you preaching at when there's no Biblical basis?
Which part of the crown in the bible equals to your perceived Salvation??
Whichever article or opinion you got it from, ask the person to prove it from the Bible.. cos your verses DID NOT MENTION SO! But the verses i showed you proved so..

Just so you learn how to understand the Bible through the translated version you so fondly use,
2 Peter 1:10, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
ELECTION in the ORIGINAL GREEK language is eklogēn, and that in ENGLISH means BEING CHOSEN, PICKED OUT. Again.. NOT BY WORKS.. not by you thinking you can SUSTAIN your FAITH.. IT IS PURELY BY FAITH ALONE.. and GOD CHOSE US! The only more complicated debate you can spin from this is pre-destined salvation..
so once more.. Who told you ELECTION refers to "Salvation from hell?" Prove it from the Bible.

And i have nothing against your understanding on Tribulation. its true to what the bible says as well..
The only thing is until now, all your verses.. without me even translating.. just by the words itself.. has proved your opinions and perceived understandings wrong..


1. 2 Timothy.. when the crown is a literal crown but miraculously (not sure from which bible or verse), you deciphered crown to be salvation
2. Hebrews 12:1..when you say about the crown again which equals to salvation, once more, the Bible didnt say so.. You did..
But don't ignore the part when Jesus himself ask us to look at treasures in heaven which AGAIN is categorized as IMPERISHABLE. So are you saying, based on your interpretation, your 'imperishable crowns' are salvation or salvationS? lucky for you and me, you only need 1 salvation and that's not those crowns you think, but is the faith you have in Jesus.
3. 2 Peter 1:10, once again.. you mistook the word ELECTION to be SALVATION. when even in greek, it says BEING CHOSEN, PICKED OUT


I did not opinionated my comments.. i merely read to you the Bible..
you on the other hand, keep repeating and repeating on that one example of Peter denying Christ.. Even after i explained from the BIBLE about Peter and the Holy Spirit..
Take a step back and reflect on this truth.. The BIBLE is the truth....

1 Corinthians 2:4,"And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."

NOT IN THE WISDOM OF MEN.. so why dont you back your belief with the bible instead...

This post has been edited by zanness: Jul 30 2024, 01:33 PM

I can agree with you on how you see counsellor and counsellors..
Allow me to clarify. What I meant from Proverbs 11:14, is to get counsellors (biblical advice) as continuation from Proverbs 11:9.

to be frank, bible never say 'faith alone' if don't believe, can point to any verse with exact phase 'faith alone'?

faith is never alone, when bible want to show faith of a person, it always point to good work of such person.

it is sad that some church today treat work as dirty word

BTW, the whole bible is based on faith, any verse, whenever it show its promise, is conditional on faith

therefore, it is true that person have active faith can't be snatch off from god's hand

remember that god will never forsake us, it is us who forsake him. how we forsake him, by continue indulging in sin, with false sense of security that once saved is always saved.

This post has been edited by desmond2020: Jul 30 2024, 01:48 PM

"faith alone"
Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
John 3:16,"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
so you're trying to say, "WHEN whosoever believeth in would not perish?"
Romans 3:23-25,"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"
BY FAITH.. Its very clear... GRACE, FAITH.. please do share how else you want to explain the verses above..

" false sense of security that once saved is always saved."

Right.. so are you trying to rephrase..

Romans 5:1,"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:"
But then did it say justified by ACTIVE faith? Conditional Faith?, Faith with WORKS?

Galations 2:16,"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
again.. ACTIVE FAITH?

John 5:24,"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
Wait.. so if ACTIVE FAITH as you believe it.. so you're trying to rephrase this .. "may not come into comdemnation?" cos you can LOSE your faith?

Oh wait.. there's more..
Romans 8:38,39," For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
So you want to rephrase that to, yes.. We ourselves can separate us from the love of God?

OH WAIT.. You might want to check this out.
John 10:28,29," And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
So wait.. your ACTIVE FAITH version would mean.. you can pluck yourself out?


There are plenty more verses..
The only sad thing is churches these days DO NOT preach on SAVING FAITH , rather a false sense of 'feel good' faith.. which cant save you.. and i assume that's more of what you are getting at .. on your so called 'active' faith.. and the wrong sense of belief you can lose your salvation.. or maybe that's what your church preaches.. if so.. bring up the verses above and question their belief..

This post has been edited by zanness: Jul 30 2024, 02:11 PM

so faith is alone or not?

check the reply again..

which part should i check for that?

"faith alone"
Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
John 3:16,"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
so you're trying to say, "WHEN whosoever believeth in would not perish?"
Romans 3:23-25,"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"
BY FAITH.. Its very clear... GRACE, FAITH.. please do share how else you want to explain the verses above..

where does it say faith is alone?

You see any further instructions besides faith?
Romans 3:23-25,"... ..through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God"
You read it differently as, through faith and something else?
either that or do you think this verse is 'conditional' based on some unwritten doctrine ?
or wait.. maybe i read it wrongly ?
"For by grace are ye saved through faith..."
Any other words you are saved with? like 'conditional' faith?

This post has been edited by zanness: Jul 30 2024, 02:23 PM

you really dont understand do you?

faith is never alone. as matter of fact the verse you quote didnt even say faith is alone

through out bible, faith is always co exist with good work

can understand?

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MATTHEW.24: = 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
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2TIMOTHY.2: = 8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
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= no la. You are misinterpreting 2PETER.1:10's "election" (and calling).
....... MATTHEW.24: and 2TIMOTHY.2:10 above clearly tie "election" or "the elect" to salvation unto eternal heaven by faith in Jesus Christ.

Even if "election" just means "being chosen or picked our" in Greek, the Christians mentioned by apostle Paul were chosen for what.?

Eg, the coming US Election on 4 Nov 2024 will elect/choose the US President. Similarly, the coming Apocalypse "Election" on the Day of His Coming will elect/choose true Christians (via Rapture or Resurrection) for salvation from hell solely by faith in Christ, and not by works.

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2PETER.1:10 says that Christians should diligently do the good works of faith in Christ to make their election and calling sure = will not stumble or lose faith like how apostle Peter had denied Christ 3X before the cock crowed.
....... Like I said before, there are a minority of new Gentile Christian adults who are not able to diligently do the good works of faith, eg quadriplegics, Death Row convicts, the mentally-disabled, alcoholics, chain-smokers, drug addicts, etc. IOW, there are exceptions to every rule or law or commandment.

Faith in Christ by new Gentile Christian adults (= babes in Christ) can also be followed by burned/useless works or by evil works done ignorantly or unintentionally, eg by following after false prophets/teachers, false teachings/doctrines, etc - 1CORINTHIANS.3:14-15 & 5:1-5. .......

EPHESIANS.2:8-10 = .8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 30 2024, 02:34 PM

Did you read those verses and understand it? or replied for the sake of it ?

Although I agree, faith ALWAYS co exist with WORKS.. As written in JAMES..
James 2:18," Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."
James 2:19,"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

Dead Faith = without works..
You read it differently cos it says 'conditional' faith?
OR you totally ignored all the verses of the Bible that talks about salvation?

So really.. the question is.. DO YOU understand the Bible enough..

oh well, whatever float your boat

BTW. what is faith according to your understanding anyway?

[quote=lurkingaround,Jul 30 2024, 02:28 PM]


Matthew 24:21 - Clearly saying its during tribulation
Matthew 24:24,' For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
The verse clearly mentions how the elect will also be deceived.. where's your confusion they lose their salvation ?

2 TImothy 2:8-10 - Your understanding is correct.. Elects are chosen ones that will be saved.. so where is your confusion an elect will be 'REJECT'?

And you want to use the worldly examples to define the Bible ? Good luck to you.

2 Peter 1:10 - any reply from this will be a merry go-round where you ignore all that was explained of these verses and reply with made up opinoins with no Bible backing.

Again, you quote 1 Corinthians 3:14
have you understood the verses ?
1 Corinthians 3:13,14,"every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

ANY MAN! READ THE VERSES! CLEARLY STATING... ANY MAN! you conveniently translated ANY MAN to ANY CHRISTIANS! How wrong is that?

And in some portions when Paul attentioned to YOU BRETHEN, then YES You can indicate it as CHRISTIANS.. but ANY MAN??? its LITERALLY ANY MAN

This post has been edited by zanness: Jul 30 2024, 02:51 PM