As I said, if the BIBLE ALONE, is not enough for you..and opinions are your flavours, then all the best to you.
Proverbs 18:2 ,"A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself."
2 Timothy 3:16,"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
Matthew 4:4,"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
In Jesus' ministry and approach, COUNTLESS TIMES, Jesus quoted the WORD of God Which was the old testament.
I will still ignore opinions that has no word of God /biblical basis.

Very interesting you quote Proverbs 11:14. Dont ignore Proverbs 11:9,"An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered." KNOWLEDGE! The WORD OF GOD! NOT OPINIONS
and if you lack understanding of Proverbs 11:14,"Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety."
Counsellors.. THROUGH THE WORD OF GOD! NOT OPINIONS..

If your opinions are biblically based, show me the verses and i show you your lack of understanding.
1PETER.1:3-5
So technically you are saying 1 Peter 1: v3 is addressed to one group of people? and suddenly v4 is to a DIFFERENT group?
If this is how you understand the Bible, then it explains why you dont understand it.

1 Corinthians 15:
Have you actually READ IT?
1 Corinthians 15:2,"By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."
1 Corinthians 15:50,"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
V49?,"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly."
V53?,"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

You quote these verses but event in NKJV, have you read and understood it?
we SHALL BE CHANGED!.. SHALL BE!! Thats why in v50, we CANT inherit the kingdom of God UNTIL we be changed!

so the question to you is, do you have confidence in your faith? Can you show from the Bible you are saved?
Ephesians 3:12,"In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him."
What kind of faith do you have if you think you can work your way to heaven?








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MATTHEW.13: (NKJV) = The Parable of the Sower Explained

18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower:

19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

Are the 2nd and 3rd seed receivers true or false Christians before they lost the seed of faith in Christ.?
....... Lose seed of faith in Christ = lose the indwelling Holy Spirit = can be demon-possessed if break the Law at DEUTERONOMY.18:9-14/LEVITICUS.19:26
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PHILIPPIANS.2: = 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

If "true" Christians cannot ever lose faith or depart from the faith(1TIMOTHY.4:1) or deny/renounce the faith(MATTHEW.10:33), why did apostle Paul warn Christians to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.?
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Now that is a strong term.

1. Do schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, split personality disorder, madness, etc, not truly exist then?

Are you not aware that personalities can massively alter, just by suffering damage to certain parts of the human brain?

Are they all to be swept under the category of "demon possession"?

You hold too simplistic a view, on neurosis & human psychology. Excessive religiosity is not doing you any good.


2. In order to not take such things lightly, as in the case of "demon possession", have you personally ever witness events such as deliverance or exorcism?

Maybe you have a testimony to share?


Note : At my church, pastor Gilbert is our resident ghost buster.

1. Above comments are opinions with no bibilical basis.. until you show from the Bible what you believe, only then can I rebuke you and correct your understanding.

2. JOHN.3:14-21, LUKE.23:39-43, 1COR.3:15 & 5:1-5, EPH.2:8-10.
I assume you are trying to explain salvation with all these verses you posted. Do read them because I've similarly reference them in my previous comments.
And to a certain extent, my answer remains the same.. Is the person truly saved to begin with.. but if the person IS TRULY SAVED, and without ANY GOOD WORKS, please remember...
as you quoted LUKE 23:42-43,"And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom., And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

All that was mentioned is "Remember me" as a indication of believe.. and he was saved.. but there are a lot of people who claims to be Christians, and are SCHOLARS.. but have no salvation.. the Bible has warned us of such..

3. talking about unrepented Christians..
Again im not sure why there's a deliberate ignorance to the point some Christians are not saved to begin with..
and you said it correctly 1 Corinthians 3:14,15
But why ignore Matthew 7:23,"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

The beauty of God is when you read His word, His word rebukes you right at the spot..
You quote Matthew 13: The parable of the seed.
Consider this.
Matthew 13: 13,"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."
Matthew 13: 19,"When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side"
The Parable of the seed is telling you to differentiate seeds that are ROOTED in the WORD OF GOD.. vs those who only HEAR the word of God and dont seek UNDERSTANDING..

You already paste the verses yourself, read it.. understand it.. there has been NO ROOT IN GOD! HENCE THERE HAS BEEN.. NO HOLY SPIRIT!

Philippians 2:12, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
Wherefore... Means a continuation from the previous verses... explaining the highly position of JESUS
V9, V10,"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
But why stop at v12? READ ON..
V13,"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

YOU CANT SAVE YOURSELF! IT IS GOD! GOD ONLY!

and you ask why fear? why trembling?
Do you know what fear is in the Bible as well ?
Proverbs 9:10
Fear is also mentioned numerous times as a form of humility and obedience.. not because you lose your salvation!
2 Corinthians 7:1, "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."
1 Timothy 4:1 - Yes, people depart from faith... but YOU put words into the verses to say they lose their salvation?
and if you TRULY read Matthew 10:33,"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven"
denies:
ἀρνήσηταί (arnēsētai)
This is the word for “disown: (“whoever disowns me”) is an aorist tense.
The aorist tense looks at a person’s life “globally”—a lifetime. Hence, the one who throughout his life denies or disowns Christ (as the Pharisees) will be disowned before the Father
READ IT UP!

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Before inheriting the coming kingdom of heaven, today there are about 2 billion Christians on this rotten earth. Not all these Christians will be "kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation." = some of these Christians may lose faith in Christ, depart from the faith, deny/renounce the faith, etc.
....... So, there are Christians in 2 different eras, ie before and after the 2nd Coming of the Lord/God Jesus Christ (from heaven) to earth. .......

1THESSALONIANS.4:15-18 = 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Cf; .......

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No la, saints will be changed from corruptible to incorruptible and from mortality to immortality after the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ to earth, not before or as you stated, ".we SHALL BE CHANGED!.. SHALL BE!! Thats why in (1COR.15)v50, we CANT inherit the kingdom of God UNTIL we be changed!" = you are misinterpreting the Bible.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 29 2024, 03:54 PM

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Judas Iscariot was never saved from hell since salvation of believing earthlings only started after the resurrection of Christ in 33AD, ie Judas hung himself to death even before Christ was crucified - MATTHEW.27: .......

JOHN.17: = Jesus Prays for His Disciples

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 29 2024, 04:12 PM

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zanness , ....... If an apostle of Christ who spent >3 years with Him, can somehow be forever lost or lost faith in Christ, why can't a member of Christ or Christian also somehow lose faith in Christ.?

Any idea why Judas Iscariot became lost.?
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I was asking about the 2nd and 3rd seed receivers, not about the 1st seed receiver.
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So, Christians do not need to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling" and just let God do the work for them.?
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Are you saying Christian apostates who depart from the faith will not lose their salvation in Christ.?

Fyi, during Japanese colonial rule over Korea in the early 1900s, the Japanese government required Koreans to publicly worship the Japanese Emperor as God. Many Korean Christians were martyred and/or jailed for refusing to do so because to do so would have meant publicly denying Jesus Christ as the Lord/God.
....... This historical event proves your misinterpretation of the word "deny" in MATTHEW.10:33.

Like I said before, REVELATION.13:11-18 & 14:9 prophesy a similar "coming soon" event about the mark-of-the-beast (computer chip implants.?) which will be mandated by the world governments, when some Christians will also be martyred for their faith in Christ.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 29 2024, 04:40 PM

Unless you can back up those comments with Bible verses. ill only answer to those that has one. More than likely, you were preached to on those ideas.. and never had to read the Bible to FACT CHECK them.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18.
But why ignore v13,14 ?," But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him"
Clearly in reference from Paul addressing church in Thessalonica. And in that context, Christians who are still alive against Christians who are asleep. Nothing to suggest you LOSE your salvation along the way.

You keep highlighting ONLY SAINTS..
That is your opinion. No Bible verse mentions it.
Read the Bible
V53,"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."
Philippians 3:20-21,"Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." and mind you this was written to the believers in Philippi

You have raised so many opinions and tried so hard throwing verses after verses you do not understand..
but somehow conveniently ignored EVERYTHING that states the opposite of what you are told to believe at.. and EVERYTHING I've said so far.. is merely QUOTING you BIBLE VERSES!

Remember my reply I've explained a few post ago on WHY MIRACLES WERE DONE???
your assumption is that Judas HAD the Holy Spirit to begin with when it was only clear in ACTS after the Jesus went back to Heaven, that the HOLY SPIRIT truly dwelled in..

You cant LOSE something, if you DONT HAVE IT to begin with.

Judas was never lost. He betrayed Jesus and did not believe who Jesus was.
Matthew 27:4,Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that."

I was referring to ALL SEEDS that did not have root. And were taken up by the world.
Mark 4:5-7,"And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit."
The Bible is very consistent with roots and faith. You assumed the other seeds had root with no biblical verses because someone preached that to you I assume.

Christians need to fear. And based on all the verses I've shared, there are tons of verses why we fear God, in order to be more Christlike too, but not because we will be disowned.
Psalms 86:11, "Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name."
Read my replies and understand them like how I did so I can correct your ways.
2 Corinthians 7:1 "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."
Ephesians 5:21,"Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God."
Hebrews 12:28- 29,""Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire."

We fear God for who God is, as how John did when he first met God in Revelation. We fear God for the coming chastisements we may receive.. But NEVER in the Bible, God ask us to fear because we will LOSE our SALVATION that we already have.

Again, the final part of your remarks are opinionated and does not explain FROM THE BIBLE.
The Bible is the ONE SOURCE OF TRUTH and anything beyond that, may it be history, opinions, SERMONS!, if NONE of those are BASED on the BIBLE.. its no difference with a cult.. But If any of those are BASED on the BIBLE, Ill Accept, ill Fact check it, and IT WILL NEVER GO WRONG!

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Fyi, OT Jews and NT Christians who will be saved from hell are also called saints in the Bible. .......

REVELATION.14:12 = 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

REV.17:6 = 6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

PSALM.116:15 = Precious in the sight of the Lord
Is the death of His saints.

MATTHEW.27: = 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

ROMANS.8:27 = 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
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My take on this is that MAYBE, after spending >3 years with Jesus Christ with full of prophesies coming true, miracles, signs and wonders, Judas Iscariot, as His treasurer, thought that his betrayal of Christ for 30 silvers would come to nothing since he was over-confident that somehow Jesus (= God-in-the-flesh) would miraculously escape from His persecutors, ie Jesus would not die on the Cross. Unfortunately for Judas, God had other plans.
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MATTHEW.26: = Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial

31 Then Jesus said to them, “All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written:

‘I will strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’

32 But after I have been raised, I will go before you to Galilee.”

33 Peter answered and said to Him, “Even if all are made to stumble because of You, I will never be made to stumble.”

34 Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you that this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.”

35 Peter said to Him, “Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You!”

And so said all the disciples.

If all the other 11 apostles could stumble and deny Christ 3X or lost faith in Christ, why can't a member of Christ or Christian also may do the same, ie lose faith in Christ, eg curse God and die - like the wife of Job at JOB.2:9.?
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 29 2024, 05:18 PM

Very good.
We are getting somewhere .
Now you know the importance of quoting the Bible in what you believe.
Now let me clarify, my reply was in reference to you saying that verse means for saints and me misinterpreting it..
and as you have quoted, clearly saints are in reference to those who believe in Christ.
Romans 8:26,27,"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

Once more, ACCORDING TO THE WILL OF GOD. NOT OF OUR OWN WORKS OR OUR OWN EFFORT..
SAINTS.. in this context in reference to the CHRISTIANS in the Roman church.


again another reference.
Ephesians 6:10, "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might."
Ephesians 6:18,"Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints."
Saints have the Holy Spirit, I'm sure you can agree on that.
Saints are saved Christians, we all agree..
Saints DO NOT LOSE their salvation, You dont agree.. and you cant find a bible verse that supports or explains it when i've showed you from the Bible many many many references that i didnt even have to explain.. the verses were self-explanatory

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Are you saying those Christians referred by apostle Paul at 1CORINTHIANS.15:50-54 were not saints.?
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You can 2nd guess God's word, 2nd guess God's plan.. but nothing is more firm than the Word of God.
Isaiah 55:8,9,"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Lot's Wife, was due to her worldliness. We dont have to 2nd Guess it.
Luke 17:31,32,"In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife."

In the Old Testaments, they lived by the LAW, and had to do sacrifices because they are judged BY THE LAW.
We now live in the era of GRACE, not by LAW. That is the ONLY REASON why we can be saved. Our sins are forgiven (past/present/future) the moment you accept Jesus Christ as your PERSONAL Lord and Savior.
1 JOHN 1:17," But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
ALL SIN..
Collosions 2:13,"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses"
Romans 5:19,"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

OBEDIENCE OF ONE!! NOT OBEDIENCE OF ALL!! NOT OBEDIENCE OF YOU OR ME!! We can be obedience as much as we want.. thats what the Holy Spirit would burden us to do.. but that DOESNT MEAN our salvation can be more secured..
Salvation is ONLY BY FAITH!
Nothing we can do, but Jesus.

i've replied and clarified..

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No la. I believe even saints or "true" Christians can lose faith = lose salvation if they are over-confident, not sober, vigilant, careful, wary, etc. And if such were to then dabble in the occult, they can become demon-possessed or demon-oppressed like King Saul.
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1CORINTHIANS.9:27 = 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
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HEBREWS.3: = 12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. ...
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If saints or "true" Christians do not or cannot lose salvation by losing faith in Christ, why did the apostle Paul warn them about unbelief or losing belief/faith/trust in God or in Jesus Christ.?
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2PETER.1: = 5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; ...

= "true" Christians can stumble and lose their salvation/election by not diligently doing the good works that are the fruits of faith in Christ. .......

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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Jul 29 2024, 06:20 PM

You quote from 1 Corinthians 9:27 and interestingly the entire chapter is talking about not living through the law but through the GOSPEL of Christ.
and "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."
But dont ignore v24,"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain."
V27,"..castaway" is in reference to NOT RECEIVING A REWARD at the judgement seat of Christ.
We are NOT REWARDED IN SALVATION! again.. if you insist v27 is for losing salvation, you contradict the Bible but fortunately for you, its not the Bible but your understanding.

Hebrews 3:12, Nothing in that verse suggest losing salvation, but backsliding christians? YES!

2 Peter 1:10," Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
See the difference?
and yet still, NOTHING, not a single thing suggests you lose your salvation.
In fact, 2 Peter 1:10 is VERY CONSISTENT With JAMES 2:18,"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."
Its merely to pronounce you will not stray away from the right faith.

Again, you have still yet shown ANY VERSE, ANY AT ALL, that suggests a TRULY SAVED Christian losing their salvation..

The Bible DO NOT CONTRADICT itself...

You and I are in trouble if you can find ONE SINGLE VERSE that says true Christians will lose their salvation because I have shared SO MANY REFERENCES and BIBLE QUOTES to say otherwise...

Hebrews 3:8,"Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:"
Hebrews 3:12," Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God"
Hebrews 3:13,"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."
Hebrews 3:14,"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"
Hebrews 3:15,"While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation."

...departing from the living God.. is also similar to departing from the TRUTH!
The BIBLE is the TRUTH..
We use the BIBLE for truth. Hebrews 3:12 is clearly talking about Christians who do not believe in the truth for some sinful reasons such as lust of flesh, lust of the eyes, pride of life..
and this is not MY OPINION..
Its again explained and proven in Hebrews v13... the further elaboration being hardened through the deceitfulness of SIN.