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> Honda City RS e: HEV, What a mouthful but who is getting it?

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Mr Mercedes
post Mar 15 2021, 02:44 PM

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QUOTE(EnergyAnalyst @ Mar 12 2021, 03:48 PM)
9.9 already beat many C, D, crossovers....Some more at that price lor
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Pricewise, maybe. But the 2013 CRZ, sporting a similar setup, albeit with less torque, and being a much older hybrid system, goes from 0-100 in 9 seconds iirc. You'd expect the City Hybrid being faster than 9.9 seconds considering it's Hybrid system is much more advanced than the CRZ, plus the torque figures are fairly impressive on the spec sheet.

Wonder why it doesn't translate to real world performance.


Nshade
post Mar 15 2021, 05:38 PM

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I know this is more to Honda side but with X50 around and that price point, it's normal for car user to have dilemma from getting RS.

This post has been edited by Nshade: Mar 16 2021, 02:00 AM
DS51
post Mar 15 2021, 11:12 PM

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QUOTE(Mr Mercedes @ Mar 15 2021, 02:44 PM)
Pricewise, maybe. But the 2013 CRZ, sporting a similar setup, albeit with less torque, and being a much older hybrid system, goes from 0-100 in 9 seconds iirc. You'd expect the City Hybrid being faster than 9.9 seconds considering it's Hybrid system is much more advanced than the CRZ, plus the torque figures are fairly impressive on the spec sheet.

Wonder why it doesn't translate to real world performance.
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I always full throttle my crz at traffic light leave car behind and still get quite good fc 11.5km/L. lol.

btw, I expect more too from this 253nm. why so slow nia. If city b segment sedan can touch 8 second, I think it will sell like hot cakes
La2yboy
post Mar 16 2021, 01:23 PM

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when hybrid battery KO then GG
claudetan
post Mar 16 2021, 01:28 PM

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top up a bit civic 1.8, ppl ask you what car u drive, you say city, ppl say, cheh, city only, if you say civic, ppl wow ....
constant_weight
post Mar 16 2021, 11:10 PM

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QUOTE(Mr Mercedes @ Mar 15 2021, 02:44 PM)
Pricewise, maybe. But the 2013 CRZ, sporting a similar setup, albeit with less torque, and being a much older hybrid system, goes from 0-100 in 9 seconds iirc. You'd expect the City Hybrid being faster than 9.9 seconds considering it's Hybrid system is much more advanced than the CRZ, plus the torque figures are fairly impressive on the spec sheet.

Wonder why it doesn't translate to real world performance.
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QUOTE(DS51 @ Mar 15 2021, 11:12 PM)
I always full throttle my crz at traffic light leave car behind and still get quite good fc 11.5km/L.  lol.

btw, I expect more too from this 253nm. why so slow nia. If city b segment sedan can touch 8 second, I think it will sell like hot cakes
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Don't get taken away by the torque number, it is an illusion.

Gearbox or transmission do 2 things 1)change speed 2)convert torque.
- output gear bigger than input gear = reduce speed, and increase torque
- output gear smaller than input gear = increase speed, and reduce torque

both speed and torque change at the same proportion, one up, the other one down at same ratio.
Which means the horsepower remain constant regardless what gear you are in, only reduced by friction loss. Torque is work, horsepower is work done per unit time. You can take it as how frequent it can apply the torque. Eg:. engine1 100nm 100hp, engine2 50nm 100hp. Let's simplified with the max torque happens at max rpm. Engine2 need double the rpm to reach same 100hp.
For both to move at same speed
- engine1 1000rpm 100nm with 1:1 ratio output 1000rpm 100nm 100hp.
- engine2 2000rpm 50nm with 2:1 ratio output 1000rpm 100nm 100hp.

Electric motor spins very fast, 10,000rpm is very common. I don't have i-MMD traction motor detail spec, for your reference Volvo ERAD motor top up at [email protected]/h, Model 3 Long Range motor [email protected]/h. Thus electric motor has speed reduction gear, which is good. Eg:. 10:1 drop where motor spin 10 rotation, wheel spin 1 rotation, and torque is 10x on the wheel.

Everything are nice and positive for the RS until this point. Here's the 2 limitations.

- First, everyone knows electric motor torque drop off at higher rpm. But Honda never publish the data, we don't know how's the performance, don't know rpm when it hit 108hp, don't know 253nm rpm range. Generally the max torque will only sustain 1/3 to 1/2 of the max rpm range. So expect the 253nm last until 50km/h - 60km/h, a wild guess, depends on the speed reduction ratio and motor torque curve.
This is still ok, consider in ICE when we shift to higher gear, the torque on the wheel drop as well. ICE can get 16:1 - 20:1 (first gear times final drive ratio), more aggressive than electric motor. 2nd gear down to 9:1 to 12:1, and 3rd gear 6:1 to 8:1. So, with more aggressive 1st gear, a 160nm-170nm car might get similar or higher torque on wheel at the first gear.

- The biggest limitation is the 1.5L is only 97hp and the battery is also small 1.3kWh. Conservation of energy, the electric motor can only consume as much power as the engine able to charge the battery. In this car, the engine is less powerful than the electric motor, and charging rate also limited by the generator power. If you in constant high load all the time, you can't get more than 97hp, although this is unlikely to happen on real world. Honda quoted 60% pure EV at 40km/h, and 30% pure EV at 60km/h. The bigger sibling like CR-V, Accord hybrid get 50% pure EV at 60km/h, 30% pure EV at 100km/h. The number are all for stable cruising. So you can see, the ICE won't be able to keep up the charging if you drive aggressively.

It is a utility car for urban usage, designed for low speed city traffic jam economy. Want a fast car, go buy a proper fast car. laugh.gif
BravoZeroTwo
post Mar 17 2021, 08:38 AM

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QUOTE(constant_weight @ Mar 17 2021, 12:10 AM)
Don't get taken away by the torque number, it is an illusion.

Gearbox or transmission do 2 things 1)change speed 2)convert torque.
- output gear bigger than input gear = reduce speed, and increase torque
- output gear smaller than input gear = increase speed, and reduce torque

both speed and torque change at the same proportion, one up, the other one down at same ratio.
Which means the horsepower remain constant regardless what gear you are in, only reduced by friction loss. Torque is work, horsepower is work done per unit time. You can take it as how frequent it can apply the torque. Eg:. engine1 100nm 100hp, engine2 50nm 100hp. Let's simplified with the max torque happens at max rpm. Engine2 need double the rpm to reach same 100hp.
For both to move at same speed
- engine1 1000rpm 100nm with 1:1 ratio output 1000rpm 100nm 100hp.
- engine2 2000rpm 50nm with 2:1 ratio output 1000rpm 100nm 100hp.

Electric motor spins very fast, 10,000rpm is very common. I don't have i-MMD traction motor detail spec, for your reference Volvo ERAD motor top up at [email protected]/h, Model 3 Long Range motor [email protected]/h. Thus electric motor has speed reduction gear, which is good. Eg:. 10:1 drop where motor spin 10 rotation, wheel spin 1 rotation, and torque is 10x on the wheel.

Everything are nice and positive for the RS until this point. Here's the 2 limitations.

- First, everyone knows electric motor torque drop off at higher rpm. But Honda never publish the data, we don't know how's the performance, don't know rpm when it hit 108hp, don't know 253nm rpm range. Generally the max torque will only sustain 1/3 to 1/2 of the max rpm range. So expect the 253nm last until 50km/h - 60km/h, a wild guess, depends on the speed reduction ratio and motor torque curve.
This is still ok, consider in ICE when we shift to higher gear, the torque on the wheel drop as well. ICE can get 16:1 - 20:1 (first gear times final drive ratio), more aggressive than electric motor. 2nd gear down to 9:1 to 12:1, and 3rd gear 6:1 to 8:1. So, with more aggressive 1st gear, a 160nm-170nm car might get similar or higher torque on wheel at the first gear.

- The biggest limitation is the 1.5L is only 97hp and the battery is also small 1.3kWh. Conservation of energy, the electric motor can only consume as much power as the engine able to charge the battery. In this car, the engine is less powerful than the electric motor, and charging rate also limited by the generator power. If you in constant high load all the time, you can't get more than 97hp, although this is unlikely to happen on real world. Honda quoted 60% pure EV at 40km/h, and 30% pure EV at 60km/h. The bigger sibling like CR-V, Accord hybrid get 50% pure EV at 60km/h, 30% pure EV at 100km/h. The number are all for stable cruising. So you can see, the ICE won't be able to keep up the charging if you drive aggressively.

It is a utility car for urban usage, designed for low speed city traffic jam economy. Want a fast car, go buy a proper fast car.  laugh.gif
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Thanks for sharing. Very well explained.

SleeplessEyes
post Mar 17 2021, 09:23 AM

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All here talk about 0-100 lah, torque lah (yes its important), all related to acceleration to "tapao this car, that car".

Don't know why Honda empathise on super acceleration.
A Hybrid is meant to save fuel - Something Malaysians like to talk. FC FC FC all day.

I have nothing against Hybrids - But Hybrids should not be treated like a drag car on a drag strip.


BravoZeroTwo
post Mar 17 2021, 10:19 AM

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QUOTE(SleeplessEyes @ Mar 17 2021, 10:23 AM)
All here talk about 0-100 lah, torque lah (yes its important), all related to acceleration to "tapao this car, that car".

Don't know why Honda empathise on super acceleration.
A Hybrid is meant to save fuel - Something Malaysians like to talk. FC FC FC all day.

I have nothing against Hybrids - But Hybrids should not be treated like a drag car on a drag strip.
*
Agree, Bro. Shouldn't this car be 8 seconds with 253nm of torque?
McFD2R
post Mar 17 2021, 10:24 AM

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Facepalm when people looking at City but so concerned with performance. Get with the facts that it will never be known for performance. They were designed with efficiency in mind.

If you want quick 0-60 or 0-100, look elsewhere. I have a Vios for my daily, and I couldn't be bothered what it does 0-60/100. I have my Mini Cooper S and M3 for that.

Nothing against people wanting a quick car. Everyone wants a reliable and efficient car, and if it can be fast, it's a bonus. But come on lahh
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constant_weight
post Mar 17 2021, 10:50 AM

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QUOTE(McFD2R @ Mar 17 2021, 10:24 AM)
Facepalm when people looking at City but so concerned with performance. Get with the facts that it will never be known for performance. They were designed with efficiency in mind.

If you want quick 0-60 or 0-100, look elsewhere. I have a Vios for my daily, and I couldn't be bothered what it does 0-60/100. I have my Mini Cooper S and M3 for that.

Nothing against people wanting a quick car. Everyone wants a reliable and efficient car, and if it can be fast, it's a bonus. But come on lahh
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Yes, want a fun car go buy a fun car, want a fast car go buy a fast car.

So many people keep imagining an urban utility car to be fast and get carried away with the marketing hype.

There is a joker created a new city FB group, and he is so damn obsessed with 0-100 time. He so proud his 1.5L NA is faster than a 2.5L turbo. You know which one? The 1.8 tonnes 2.5L turbo diesel Hiace. rclxm9.gif
unitron
post Mar 17 2021, 11:41 AM

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It's all in the driving feel regardless what the numbers say.

Are test drive units already available in showroom ?
If yes, plan to go test drive this weekend.

No plan to buy. Happy with my petrol guzzling 2 cars currently.


amad108
post Mar 17 2021, 03:23 PM

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QUOTE(La2yboy @ Mar 16 2021, 01:23 PM)
when hybrid battery KO then GG
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i do think it will very fast KO because the main engine is the motor, while the petrol engine just as backup when high speed and charging the battery.. repeatedly charge sure makes any battery not gonna last long..
Mr Mercedes
post Mar 17 2021, 04:20 PM

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QUOTE(SleeplessEyes @ Mar 17 2021, 09:23 AM)
All here talk about 0-100 lah, torque lah (yes its important), all related to acceleration to "tapao this car, that car".

Don't know why Honda empathise on super acceleration.
A Hybrid is meant to save fuel - Something Malaysians like to talk. FC FC FC all day.

I have nothing against Hybrids - But Hybrids should not be treated like a drag car on a drag strip.
*
Can't blame them really.

Especially with the "RS" in it's name, that sporty looking bodykit, that 235nm of torque, and let's not forget that promo video of it overtaking a camry.

While I agree that it's most likely designed for efficiency over performance, It's fair and reasonable for the car buying public to have at least some expectations of it being a little quicker or at least on par with something like, say the CRZ. laugh.gif
Kilohertz
post Mar 17 2021, 04:30 PM

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at this price point, it is no brainer to get civic..
WannaGetBuffed
post Mar 17 2021, 05:00 PM

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oh crap thought it's /k

This post has been edited by WannaGetBuffed: Mar 17 2021, 05:24 PM
SleeplessEyes
post Mar 17 2021, 06:40 PM

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QUOTE(Mr Mercedes @ Mar 17 2021, 04:20 PM)
Can't blame them really.

Especially with the "RS" in it's name, that sporty looking bodykit, that 235nm of torque, and let's not forget that promo video of it overtaking a camry.

While I agree that it's most likely designed for efficiency over performance, It's fair and reasonable for the car buying public to have at least some expectations of it being a little quicker or at least on par with something like, say the CRZ.  laugh.gif
*
Just like when I mentioned in Ativa thread, that the 1.0L turbo has better torque than Myvi 1.5L due to improved torque band (which is true facts what. Turbo has stronger and more linear torque than NAs) , then comes /K fellas come in and defend - saying Myvi 1.5 is alot faster than Ativa doh.gif
And even show me a YT video, of a Myvi doing 0-100 (which looks very random, not proper acceleration) , and he (LYN forumer) was using YT's video timer. Wow doh.gif doh.gif
Defending the road King. I refuse to reply after that.

And when I referenced the 0-100 time of the Ativa, I took a video reference from a Toyota Raize 0-100 video . Proper acceleration timing.

My reply here: https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...ost&p=100213563


DS51
post Mar 18 2021, 02:49 PM

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QUOTE(constant_weight @ Mar 16 2021, 11:10 PM)
Don't get taken away by the torque number, it is an illusion.

Gearbox or transmission do 2 things 1)change speed 2)convert torque.
- output gear bigger than input gear = reduce speed, and increase torque
- output gear smaller than input gear = increase speed, and reduce torque

both speed and torque change at the same proportion, one up, the other one down at same ratio.
Which means the horsepower remain constant regardless what gear you are in, only reduced by friction loss. Torque is work, horsepower is work done per unit time. You can take it as how frequent it can apply the torque. Eg:. engine1 100nm 100hp, engine2 50nm 100hp. Let's simplified with the max torque happens at max rpm. Engine2 need double the rpm to reach same 100hp.
For both to move at same speed
- engine1 1000rpm 100nm with 1:1 ratio output 1000rpm 100nm 100hp.
- engine2 2000rpm 50nm with 2:1 ratio output 1000rpm 100nm 100hp.

Electric motor spins very fast, 10,000rpm is very common. I don't have i-MMD traction motor detail spec, for your reference Volvo ERAD motor top up at [email protected]/h, Model 3 Long Range motor [email protected]/h. Thus electric motor has speed reduction gear, which is good. Eg:. 10:1 drop where motor spin 10 rotation, wheel spin 1 rotation, and torque is 10x on the wheel.

Everything are nice and positive for the RS until this point. Here's the 2 limitations.

- First, everyone knows electric motor torque drop off at higher rpm. But Honda never publish the data, we don't know how's the performance, don't know rpm when it hit 108hp, don't know 253nm rpm range. Generally the max torque will only sustain 1/3 to 1/2 of the max rpm range. So expect the 253nm last until 50km/h - 60km/h, a wild guess, depends on the speed reduction ratio and motor torque curve.
This is still ok, consider in ICE when we shift to higher gear, the torque on the wheel drop as well. ICE can get 16:1 - 20:1 (first gear times final drive ratio), more aggressive than electric motor. 2nd gear down to 9:1 to 12:1, and 3rd gear 6:1 to 8:1. So, with more aggressive 1st gear, a 160nm-170nm car might get similar or higher torque on wheel at the first gear.

- The biggest limitation is the 1.5L is only 97hp and the battery is also small 1.3kWh. Conservation of energy, the electric motor can only consume as much power as the engine able to charge the battery. In this car, the engine is less powerful than the electric motor, and charging rate also limited by the generator power. If you in constant high load all the time, you can't get more than 97hp, although this is unlikely to happen on real world. Honda quoted 60% pure EV at 40km/h, and 30% pure EV at 60km/h. The bigger sibling like CR-V, Accord hybrid get 50% pure EV at 60km/h, 30% pure EV at 100km/h. The number are all for stable cruising. So you can see, the ICE won't be able to keep up the charging if you drive aggressively.

It is a utility car for urban usage, designed for low speed city traffic jam economy. Want a fast car, go buy a proper fast car.  laugh.gif
*
QUOTE(SleeplessEyes @ Mar 17 2021, 09:23 AM)
All here talk about 0-100 lah, torque lah (yes its important), all related to acceleration to "tapao this car, that car".

Don't know why Honda empathise on super acceleration.
A Hybrid is meant to save fuel - Something Malaysians like to talk. FC FC FC all day.

I have nothing against Hybrids - But Hybrids should not be treated like a drag car on a drag strip.
*
QUOTE(BravoZeroTwo @ Mar 17 2021, 10:19 AM)
Agree, Bro. Shouldn't this car be 8 seconds with 253nm of torque?
*
QUOTE(McFD2R @ Mar 17 2021, 10:24 AM)
Facepalm when people looking at City but so concerned with performance. Get with the facts that it will never be known for performance. They were designed with efficiency in mind.

If you want quick 0-60 or 0-100, look elsewhere. I have a Vios for my daily, and I couldn't be bothered what it does 0-60/100. I have my Mini Cooper S and M3 for that.

Nothing against people wanting a quick car. Everyone wants a reliable and efficient car, and if it can be fast, it's a bonus. But come on lahh
*
But, the promo video super misleading. Its done by Honda itself. Lol.

Try so hard to instill RS is fast. Can overtake in split second.kek.

DM52
post Mar 18 2021, 02:56 PM

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QUOTE(Mr Mercedes @ Mar 17 2021, 04:20 PM)
Can't blame them really.

Especially with the "RS" in it's name, that sporty looking bodykit, that 235nm of torque, and let's not forget that promo video of it overtaking a camry.

While I agree that it's most likely designed for efficiency over performance, It's fair and reasonable for the car buying public to have at least some expectations of it being a little quicker or at least on par with something like, say the CRZ.  laugh.gif
*
QUOTE(DS51 @ Mar 18 2021, 02:49 PM)
But, the promo video super misleading. Its done by Honda itself. Lol.

Try so hard to instill RS is fast. Can overtake in split second.kek.
*
Mostly been brainwaish by Honda ads. Lol. Someone from marketing department should be fire for coming out with that idea.

Luckily some Honda worker got ethics and show the real 9.9 second century sprint.

I think they should do a promo video regarding fuel economy since fc reading is very good. But Marketing department so stupid do topkek video about overtake camry, overtake in hill. But reality is slower than crz 9 second which is come out almost 10 years ago. hahaha.
unitron
post Mar 18 2021, 06:00 PM

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QUOTE(DM52 @ Mar 18 2021, 02:56 PM)
Mostly been brainwaish by Honda ads. Lol. Someone from marketing department should be fire for coming out with that idea.

Luckily some Honda worker got ethics and show the real 9.9 second century sprint.

I think they should do a promo video regarding fuel economy since fc  reading is very good. But Marketing department so stupid do topkek video about overtake camry, overtake in hill. But reality is slower than crz 9 second which is come out almost 10 years ago. hahaha.
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0-100 time and overtaking while cruising is not the same thing.

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