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> Honda City RS e: HEV, What a mouthful but who is getting it?

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constant_weight
post Mar 16 2021, 11:10 PM

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QUOTE(Mr Mercedes @ Mar 15 2021, 02:44 PM)
Pricewise, maybe. But the 2013 CRZ, sporting a similar setup, albeit with less torque, and being a much older hybrid system, goes from 0-100 in 9 seconds iirc. You'd expect the City Hybrid being faster than 9.9 seconds considering it's Hybrid system is much more advanced than the CRZ, plus the torque figures are fairly impressive on the spec sheet.

Wonder why it doesn't translate to real world performance.
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QUOTE(DS51 @ Mar 15 2021, 11:12 PM)
I always full throttle my crz at traffic light leave car behind and still get quite good fc 11.5km/L.  lol.

btw, I expect more too from this 253nm. why so slow nia. If city b segment sedan can touch 8 second, I think it will sell like hot cakes
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Don't get taken away by the torque number, it is an illusion.

Gearbox or transmission do 2 things 1)change speed 2)convert torque.
- output gear bigger than input gear = reduce speed, and increase torque
- output gear smaller than input gear = increase speed, and reduce torque

both speed and torque change at the same proportion, one up, the other one down at same ratio.
Which means the horsepower remain constant regardless what gear you are in, only reduced by friction loss. Torque is work, horsepower is work done per unit time. You can take it as how frequent it can apply the torque. Eg:. engine1 100nm 100hp, engine2 50nm 100hp. Let's simplified with the max torque happens at max rpm. Engine2 need double the rpm to reach same 100hp.
For both to move at same speed
- engine1 1000rpm 100nm with 1:1 ratio output 1000rpm 100nm 100hp.
- engine2 2000rpm 50nm with 2:1 ratio output 1000rpm 100nm 100hp.

Electric motor spins very fast, 10,000rpm is very common. I don't have i-MMD traction motor detail spec, for your reference Volvo ERAD motor top up at [email protected]/h, Model 3 Long Range motor [email protected]/h. Thus electric motor has speed reduction gear, which is good. Eg:. 10:1 drop where motor spin 10 rotation, wheel spin 1 rotation, and torque is 10x on the wheel.

Everything are nice and positive for the RS until this point. Here's the 2 limitations.

- First, everyone knows electric motor torque drop off at higher rpm. But Honda never publish the data, we don't know how's the performance, don't know rpm when it hit 108hp, don't know 253nm rpm range. Generally the max torque will only sustain 1/3 to 1/2 of the max rpm range. So expect the 253nm last until 50km/h - 60km/h, a wild guess, depends on the speed reduction ratio and motor torque curve.
This is still ok, consider in ICE when we shift to higher gear, the torque on the wheel drop as well. ICE can get 16:1 - 20:1 (first gear times final drive ratio), more aggressive than electric motor. 2nd gear down to 9:1 to 12:1, and 3rd gear 6:1 to 8:1. So, with more aggressive 1st gear, a 160nm-170nm car might get similar or higher torque on wheel at the first gear.

- The biggest limitation is the 1.5L is only 97hp and the battery is also small 1.3kWh. Conservation of energy, the electric motor can only consume as much power as the engine able to charge the battery. In this car, the engine is less powerful than the electric motor, and charging rate also limited by the generator power. If you in constant high load all the time, you can't get more than 97hp, although this is unlikely to happen on real world. Honda quoted 60% pure EV at 40km/h, and 30% pure EV at 60km/h. The bigger sibling like CR-V, Accord hybrid get 50% pure EV at 60km/h, 30% pure EV at 100km/h. The number are all for stable cruising. So you can see, the ICE won't be able to keep up the charging if you drive aggressively.

It is a utility car for urban usage, designed for low speed city traffic jam economy. Want a fast car, go buy a proper fast car. laugh.gif
constant_weight
post Mar 17 2021, 10:50 AM

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QUOTE(McFD2R @ Mar 17 2021, 10:24 AM)
Facepalm when people looking at City but so concerned with performance. Get with the facts that it will never be known for performance. They were designed with efficiency in mind.

If you want quick 0-60 or 0-100, look elsewhere. I have a Vios for my daily, and I couldn't be bothered what it does 0-60/100. I have my Mini Cooper S and M3 for that.

Nothing against people wanting a quick car. Everyone wants a reliable and efficient car, and if it can be fast, it's a bonus. But come on lahh
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Yes, want a fun car go buy a fun car, want a fast car go buy a fast car.

So many people keep imagining an urban utility car to be fast and get carried away with the marketing hype.

There is a joker created a new city FB group, and he is so damn obsessed with 0-100 time. He so proud his 1.5L NA is faster than a 2.5L turbo. You know which one? The 1.8 tonnes 2.5L turbo diesel Hiace. rclxm9.gif
constant_weight
post Mar 18 2021, 10:25 PM

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QUOTE(DM52 @ Mar 18 2021, 08:29 PM)
Care to elaborate more?.

My understanding is, if car can achieve good 0 to 100kmh, then the car will be even faster going from 100kmh to 200kmh, since no more weight to carry around from standstill.

Unless city rs is fucking heavy like 300 or 400kg more than crz, then I dont think it will outperform crz during overtake on cruising speed.
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Of course car with good power that can do good 0-100km/h, the 100-200km/h won't be too bad.

But there are many optimizations (hacks) can be done to get a fraction of seconds faster for 0-100km/h. 100-200km/h is more on the raw horsepower.

For super slow car like City or other A/B segments urban utility cars, making 11-12s faster to let's say 10s. Well, 1s is a colossal improvement, but nevertheless still slow. This is not what they designed for and NOT a criteria to determine if one is good/bad car.

For 3-5s 0-100km/h car, a 0.1s is a big deal. Many can be done to get 0.1 - 0.2 without increasing the power.

The key is traction.
1) Everyone know launch control, it is to limit the torque to just a fraction below breaking the traction of the tires.
2) Tesla invented this. The launch control will hold the brake, and then reverse the car ever slightly and hold it there. This create tension on the brake rotor and brake pad. Metal while looks solid, is actually quite flexible. The tension will slingshot all 4 wheels, also spring the electric motor rotor forward on launch, saving fractions of a second. This hack can only be done on EV
3) Moveable spoilers. Retract or reduce the wing angles at low speed when don't need the downforce to reduce drag
4) Optimize Gear box shift timing for launch control
5) AWD can get more traction at launch, put engine on top of driving wheel also improve traction. FF, MR, RR. FR is actually at disadvantage here, but is fun to drive.
6) Volvo T8 PHEV, beside the 87HP electric motor (ERAD) at rear wheel, there is another 43HP starter generator between engine and torque converter. This 43HP will fill in the torque when shifting in acceleration, so no gap in power delivery. This is also the reason the gear shift is so damn smooth in the T8, also make it the first hybrid that can do regenerative braking on all 4 wheels.
7) etc etc... others can fill in more examples

Accelerate from cruising is different experience, as most likely you just chilling. Then sudden change of pace, will see how fast the car decided to kick down the gear, what's the initial delay, after that is the raw horsepower game. So 0-100km/h, 5-100km/h, 40-160km/h can favor different car of similar horsepower. Advantage of AWD gone when starting at higher speed.

Weight still affecting the acceleration at any speed. As long as there is change of speed, there is change of inertial. Only that the effect is less vs aerodynamic drag at higher speed.

This post has been edited by constant_weight: Mar 18 2021, 10:28 PM
constant_weight
post Mar 23 2021, 12:32 PM

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QUOTE(kevin23 @ Mar 23 2021, 09:56 AM)
Ativa engine is superb. And it drives so well. Its so fun to drive.

City interior is most premium among the 3 jap cars.

X50 interior is great but let down by mediocre engine and gearbox
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Different people have different standard/perspective.

To me Ativa handle terribly, and extremely unstable. City is just marginally better.

Ativa/Cityi, I might get one later, but only get used and thrash them and won't bother to repair the dent. I value them as a fantastic daily beater but car without soul (totally not worth to buy new).

I would take them to wet market, very crowded area that I don't want my current car (even it already has full car PPF) to expose to.
Their usage primarily in city downtown. They are also unstable that I try not to bring them on highway. Short <20km highway commute, will keep average 80km/h, not more than 100km/h.
Use them as they designed for - urban city car.

I know a guy that going to same car detailing shop as me, who thrash his GTR. Modded to 900hp, always KL<->Penang<->Thailand for meeting, drive up to 300km/h.
To him GTR is his business tool, to get to his destination ASAP, time is his money. He cheap out on cosmetic repair, some body panel repainted but wrong color shade/no metallic, he also don't care, as long as overall his car still a black car.
To him probably cheapest car that can run at that speed. He got other cars that he pampered.
constant_weight
post Mar 23 2021, 01:45 PM

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QUOTE(kevin23 @ Mar 23 2021, 12:49 PM)
Of cuz everyone has different opinion. But if 8/10 ppl say ativa is awesome to drive, it means its awesome to drive. The minority 2 opinion dont count

U shud check out ativa reviews on youtube. Majority say its a great car to drive.
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It means the 2 have better performance/handling/quality cars to thrash Ativa as daily beater.

It is a great car to squeeze in city and won't heartache when motorcycles or people carrying goods leave a deep scratch on the door.
constant_weight
post Mar 23 2021, 07:56 PM

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QUOTE(DM52 @ Mar 23 2021, 06:52 PM)
No one said it is a performance car here dude..It will never be performance car. Just Honda unethical ads show its like performance car, but thruth is slowpoke. Anyone here know that

I highlighted about the ethical parts. Where no other car maker will put their rival in their ads. Even bmw vs audi, they dont direct put into their ads. Thats where I said, it is misleading in the first place. But u taichi said, the ads is okay. up to people to believe or not.

Ya, I agree on ur parts. up to people intelligent but, its still dont change the facts the ads is fucking unethical. I search other automotive ads in youtube. No one do ads like Honda Malaysia.
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Unfortunately I've seen far too many people treat City as high performance car. No only RS, even the 1.5 as well.

Even met one called Almera 1.0T pathetic. Said his 1.5NA can easily pass a 70km/h lorry, and Almera owner so pity etc, so proud of his slow 0-160km/h in some 45s video. He get triggered when I said both are 10s+ and what to compare as they are both A to B urban city car, compare fuel economy or traffic jam comfort in low 40-60km/h more realistic.

I have no comment on ethical or not part, but I know the ads will roar and excite many fan boys, ricer. Unrealistic self believe their H badge is red in color. Ironically, met a couple of Type R owners at my go to detailing shop to maintain my car, they are humble and friendly.

 

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