we have good discussion thru PM and come out with the best solution, my apologies to all forumers, thanks to ADMIN..so sorry for the false accusations..

thanks to VikingW2K..

This post has been edited by ad_rv4: Aug 3 2007, 10:33 PM

So do ya wanna let go at cheaper than the price you bought ?

Full Conversation Log here



My Sales Thread here

All my picture posting method were the same. I'll include Front, Left, Right, Back. Full Set, and sometimes in Hand. Also, i do offer options for buyer to meet up, test nicely and deal if they are satisfied. I hardly find any reason to hide the actual condition of my items.

This post has been edited by vikingw2k: Jul 27 2007, 10:59 PM

hehe, i need to open new thread sales with the right infos to my potiental buyer right???

[quote=vikingw2k,Jul 27 2007, 10:36 PM]
Full Conversation Log here

[/quote][/spoiler]

[/quote]
Please take off buyer details. *address and so on

@ ad_rv4

Why you keep clapping in your PMs ?
Looking forward to seeing your pictures, claim down bro.

Edited: @Viking, you shouldn't reveal buyer details and item price.

This post has been edited by Sandwich2U: Jul 27 2007, 10:47 PM

its me when im in this matter, u cannot accept ka oneself behaviour different from others when they in certain situation????

well.. for my opinion, if buyer ask regarding where is the 5% scratchness..

seller should at least show the part... not focus from a place where we cant notice the scratchness ( from the photo viking posted in his thread)

well i juz can say, without COD ... its risky , even if the item is from normal user, SAFE trader OR EVEN trade enforcer....

but because of those "trusted" TAG ~... ppl from sarawak like me will trust them , and if i'm the one buying his phone judging from the photo its really 95% new (without seeing the top "fall down" scractchness part) i can say i got cheated also...

Well, as per his pictures
click me

I din see any scratches, correct me if i am wrong :hmmm:

---

Added on July 27, 2007, 10:50 pmYes, we shared the same thoughts.

This post has been edited by Sandwich2U: Jul 27 2007, 10:50 PM

u cannot see from the pics, but u can ask seller about it..got or not???hihi

well... i need to say, viking dint deny about the "top part" scratchness that the buyer mention... so means its there before viking sold it and he should take some photo and inform the buyer regarding that

well.... actually the buyer can take some photo of the phone and show us to judge how BAD is the scratchness..... i mean if too SERIOUS, its really need to be meantion by the SELLER (who is to be a SAFE ENFORCER) because he mention 95% new...

buyer know 95% new , he is more INTERESTED with the 5% bad ...
seller know 5% bad, he is more like HIDING it...

For a seller, it is a good way to promote their item and show the picture as mint as possible (marketing strategy, rite?) but if his customer wants him to show all the item's part condition, then the seller is liable to show it.

I'd say that seller should have snap the scratch area to show that the condition of the phone. It is subjective like what vikingw2k said. He is owner of the phone and selling it for sure will say try to minimize or tell that the scratches actually is very little, but buyer will think is more then that.

My point of view is that seller should have snap the scratch area and let the buyer to judge it himself. I think vikingw2k didn't show that part.

This post has been edited by KTCY: Jul 27 2007, 11:01 PM

yes... vikingw2k should have shown photos of every basic angle... but i didnt see any photos of the top of the pda... if u want to sell an item u shud convince ppl dat it is totally like how u described it by showing pictures of every part of the phone... and u jus opt to leave out the photo of the top part...

Well, even can't provide every single angel, at least come out the photo where the phone has scratches. It's more then enough for user to judge it.

the seller know 'its' there but juz ignored it, hope seller can make 'clear' statement, got or not hard scratch at the top part??? everyone here need to know the true story not behind scenes..

This post has been edited by ad_rv4: Jul 28 2007, 04:18 AM

A picture paints a thousand words, so please snap some photos and share with us tomorrow.

i will , thanks for ur comments

from the pic..the phone is really very new...

@ad_rv4
i think you should post up the pic to show us the visible scratch...

btw if not mistaken, misleading picture or information to pursude buyer to purchase any item which is different from the actual condition is consider fraud according to Akta Jual Beli 1970

take a closer look at the red round mark, the chrome part already tear out, i will snap some pics 2morow, this part will be reference so others dont claim me make up a story or take a snap from another set, thanks


This post has been edited by ad_rv4: Jul 27 2007, 11:37 PM

actually..... if this is done by normal user ... i mean without showing the TOP PART which got scratchness (notsure serious or not) we can "forgive" them since if they show tat part, the phone wont be 95% NEW and price will be reduced.... as they don like it

but if the SELLER is SAFE TRADER...... and now even SAFE ENFORCER.. i dunno what to say anymore.... they should know the rule better and they should show it to the buyer because maybe the buyer wont buy it after he see it

like i buy a car , photo from front , side back look totally new.... but the seller dint take a snapshot from the top ... probably the top part (above all those 4 mirrors) maybe be dent .. its 95% new without showing to the buyer also mah....

it feels like cheating..
it feels more bad especially come from a SAFE ENFORCER

Take a high resolution pic of the scratched part & show it here.

Pointing fingers here & there won't solve the dispute.

@ingjoo,

it's actually TRADE ENFORCER.

By the way, hope u guys can settle this matter peacefully. I've dealt with both TS and Viking before so I'm not about to choose any sides...

Regards.

noted. carefully with him for the next. tidak jujur dalam urusan jual beli...

ad_rv4;
saya cadangkan awak bincang balik dengan viking/wong and return back barang to him la...get your money back la...

for viking;
jujurlah dalam urusan jual beli..when refer ur pic, no scracthes...when i see the real item, 80% scrathless...tak jujur!jaga reputation la...u trade enforcer

This post has been edited by razzac: Jul 28 2007, 10:53 AM

hurm...how about the imei number? how can it be different?

I cant see any scratches..... n the picture u showed belongs to vikingw2k. So i suggest u take a few pics of ur own so we can see what's going on.

well . from the pic that ad_rv4 show , the button there really does a terible scrathes . Compared to large area that this PDA phone can see , it is nearly and more than 95% scratchless . I think ad_rv4 juz not satisfy wif the BUTTO scratch at 80% .

So wat do u guy think ? As ad_rv4 refer using seller's pic and didnt look it well . So 1st tot he admit it is 95% scratches from overall looks .

This post has been edited by duo8668: Jul 28 2007, 11:56 AM

plz wait till i upload pics of the top part, hihi..

how can you quantify scratches?

i see like 80% scratches la, 100% scratches la.....is it the length or amount of scratches per square inch or what?

It need to be settle fast dude . If dun hav camera faster go borrow as this thread go longer and delayed may bring negative effect to seller too .

1 small part like the button as TS metioned , i quote it as 98% scratchless . But if the back of the phone hav 3 lines above , even it is thinny lines , but once it cover from top till bottom area , i quote it as 50% scratchless .

I quantify it by area that human eyes easy to detect and look at .

actually,i dont like vikingw2k cos he threaten the buyer.look at his TERMS AND CONDITIONS

That isnt big trouble . When u saw a ST that pm u and ask his admin fren to take action on u , how will u feel ?

I am still considering wanna open that thread to take action on useless mod and ST . Since fren cover fren , how survive ?

erm...yup agreed with u

This post has been edited by razzac: Jul 29 2007, 10:30 AM

LOL. I got ya.

@TS

Have your picture ready as soon as possible. When it comes to condition situation, have to solve it as soon as possible, else you also won't get much benifits as well.

Eg. After two days, picture uploaded, but seller can denied that the scratches are there before sending out, which can be buyer who accidentally scratched it. You know, pushing resposibility around, this is not good either.

^ Only example, don't take it seriously.

razzac, duo and ali - please do not spam. the rest of you, stop spamming until viking speaks again.

contributive info is fine, but just don't spam.

Hardly quantifiable and certainly within the realm of subjectivity and unless you have an objective formula to rate the amount of scratches, caveat emptor, because in my view, from the pic, it doesn't really seem scratched.

just be careful when buying viking's item cause usually he'll sell item which he trade in with others.
for example, if he got a phone to sell and usually he'll say trade in with ANYTHING. so when u want to trade, say for example..another phone/gadgets..he'll buy with with a very low price and then list it again at lowyat after mark-up.

actually form viking2k thread i also saw the chrome part memang already tear out marr....

TS, u really kenot see the tear before u bought the pda ??

what is wrong with that? he is a trader, and that is how the business goes..


anyway, i think buyer should bear a wee bit of responsibiliy for paying before 100% sure of the condition. if u paid, means u agreed with the buy and sell term, and the seller has the right to not refund as long as it works as promised, and the warranty is valid.. it is the buyer's responsibility to ensure that the item's external condition is up to his own standard before paying cause external condition is arguable and almost impossible to quantify.. he could argue that the scratches are only 5% while u could take it as 20%.. safest is still to COD, or dun buy if there's any doubt..

Hey, that's how the business is run.
Nobody is forcing anybody to trade-in at low price.
In fact, this is how Cash Converters operate. And I can only say they are worse.

U can do the same too. If u have excess cash to buy/sell/hold & bear the risk of low to no demand & daily depreciation.

judging from the pix,all in good condition but without a pix of the part only....hope this can be settle soon....

To TS.. so all you need now is a refund from viking.?

no refund shud b made n nothing wrong wit d transaction.... d TS already saw d pic wit d scratches... so wats d problem?? jus that d TS dun notice throughly ab it... viking already told that, u can check till u ok... but u jus askin something soo subjective...

"something that is good to me, doesnt mean good to u..."

Thought TS mean the up part which is not in the photo ?
The chrome part already visible and TS actually not complaining about that right ?

ya meh?? oo... then y he highlight ab it earlier??thought its that part that he comp[lainin...

sorry dun hv frens with a high megapixel camera, so i take a lot of photo using my n73 and i got this..

i dont edit at all, tq

I trade with Viking before, he after sales service he is bad till i fed up and buy the part that faulty 1 myself to replace.

5% scracth??????

return back la bro...

Maybe you should read back 1st page mate.

Big scratches I must say. Should be a drop.
I think vikingw2k should respond to it now.

i juz wanna settle this peacefully, i want my money back, u seller can take back ur PDA..

I dont think so he will do it... he a bad seller.

he's not gonna do that cause he already made profit from the sell.
my friend had a bad experience trading with him. after received the hp, the casing was scratches all over like so bad that it looked like it's been dropped several times.

From all the comments given, I'm wondering why he still hold the elite title with Trade Enforcer tag there.

For me, it's kinda mislead for newbie that might that the tag seriously and the newbie might think that he is a good seller.

is it scrath?? or a hole??
i think should refund..

What I saw in the photo was a big hole. Something like after drop to some hard surface, the plastic drop off.

This post has been edited by KTCY: Jul 28 2007, 07:42 PM

that is one bad scratch....seller should do something to rectify this.....

Picture from Buyer


Pictures from Seller


@Viking,

Your pictures didn't show the scratch part on the top part of the phone It is somewhat unfair to your potential buyers.
How did you expect people know there is a hard scratch there ?


From your statement


If you weren't Elite Senior Member, i am pretty sure people won't do postage deal for your phone.
He put his trust on you and you seriously disappointed him.

This post has been edited by Sandwich2U: Jul 28 2007, 07:55 PM

from the pic should be hardly drop on hard surface

and viking din show that part

refund je la viking2k...dan lelong itu brg..aku beli rm200..hehehe

that look a hole to me ..and even abit crack at the black plastic cover.... horible to me >_<

is that call 95% scratchless...then my phone can consider 100% new with 1cm scratch line

The seller of the phone is pretty slick...see how the first pic in his sales thread was taken...a thumb was used to cover the part of the scratch...slick pic taking.... I definitely think a refund is in order....pitty the buyer.

Is tat a crack or a scratch..? So serious geh..

any comment from the seller yet???

That's definitely a CRACK!!

Must have hit something hard , to cause that kind of damage to the housing.

This post has been edited by scorgio: Jul 28 2007, 11:36 PM

lol 5% scratchless ar? tis is wat a trade enforcer sell a stuff to the buyer? come on man...the pix din show the blind spot..and i dun think u dunno there is god damn big hole there lor =.=" give some response lor ..or u think u shouldn't pay any responsibility on this thread? o_O or u wanna say the crack caused by the poor pos laju guy? lolz

This post has been edited by sam0919: Jul 28 2007, 11:54 PM

that surely isn't a scratch.

---Zip up lips--

This post has been edited by Dragonflyz: Jul 30 2007, 07:34 AM

lol word game =.= 95% scratchless doenst equal to crack ..its scratch not crack =.= walau like tis also can ...zha dou

*speechless

This post has been edited by sam0919: Jul 29 2007, 12:45 AM

Don't you all think vikingw2k deserve a 'DISPUTE' tag as of now?

it's up to MODERATOR i guess..

we need some clarification from our viking 1st before we jump to any more conclusion.maybe the crack caused by the courier who knows.wait for some explanation from the other party IMO

Currently I'm at my hometown handling some stuff, will get back on this matter by tomorrow night

yaya, lets him do what 'more important' for him now

and i believe it is not new crack/scracth cause by the courier, one more for you all..

---

Added on July 29, 2007, 4:25 amand another one, so sorry if not very clear enuff..

---

Added on July 29, 2007, 4:35 amthe hold button for reference, thanks for all the comments..

---

Added on July 29, 2007, 4:51 amthis is pics taken from my several attempts to get clear pics before im using maro mode, thanks for viewing




This post has been edited by ad_rv4: Jul 29 2007, 04:51 AM

wait n see...



This post has been edited by razzac: Jul 29 2007, 10:17 AM

my goodness. razzac, your posts on this thread have so far been spams, this one included.

who are you to say it's bad answer and response? at least people are doing their part to inform.

tomorrow if he don't attend to it then you hentam la.

DISPUTE tags are only awarded to people who refuse to settle the dispute. this is not the case, heck it's barely even 3 days since the thread started.

firstly it's not up to the moderator.

secondly, DISPUTE tags are only awarded to people who refuse to settle the dispute. this is not the case, yet.

you guys are really spammers.

ok sorry boss...i just kesian kat mangsa penipuan internet ni..btw, tq.

kesian kat ad_rv4, ribu tu...not hundred only....btw, hope u can get ur money back ad_rv4.

This post has been edited by razzac: Jul 29 2007, 10:15 AM

thanks for ur support razzac, u know what i really feel right now..

seller's "Elite" tag should be reconsidered if this dispute isn't solved in a proper way. It is very disappointing to see an Elite complained in the Trade Dispute Resolution Center.

@goldfries, u were right.. mostly people in here are plain spamming than posting concrete statements..

I am here not support which party is right or wrong. Just give the person some time to settle it in peacefully and good manner way.

I am sure he will settle down this problem

From TS's photos, its really a phone which consider >15% dent / scratches. Besides, he as a trade enforcer and elite with plenty of trades which he had dealt successfully, shouldn't have made those mistakes by not taking the photo of the dental parts... Does that consider doing on purpose of not letting buyers know about the phone's proper condition? From what i see here, its really unfair for a buyer who have put all his trust to a guy who have some tags and fame there ended up with those dental parts buying that phone his hard earn money and trust from the tags.... Hope there will b some mods or even admins standing here judging this case fair and square by giving us, citizens of lowyat.net a fair judgment.

Cheers...

tak kisah la you kesian or not,

1. no need to kesian when case is not settled yet.
2. kesian doesn't give you any reason to spam.

is he not ready yet???? why he dun reply here and deny there are scratch/crack on his PDA, from the beginning he never deny it!

viking is online on 7pm but did not respond to this thread

If you guys go through my thread, I'm mentioned on my title that my phone's condition is 95% Like New and majority of you people would say from the pictures it really looks like new. Actually what's the 95%? It's my own personal justification of the condition of the phone. On top of my own personal justification of the condition, I too uploaded a few pictures taken from the few angels I usually snap (Front, Left, Right, Back, Full Set, Hand) so that my potential buyers can get better picture of the overall condition instead of guessing my 95%. I rate this phone as 95%, but another person might take it as say maybe 80%, or maybe they rather use 9/10 and who knows some fussy dude might rate it as 50%.The point is there's no exact method used to measure the scratches on a phone, it's all based on the seller's personal justification.

Here, you are telling me that you are dissatisfied with the condition of my phone which i claimed as 95% Like New because base on your own personal opinion, you only rate it as 80%.

The question is, did i mislead you by telling you something FALSE which can be measured to check whether it's TRUE or FALSE? I'm merely telling you my personal justification of the condition of the phone which is very subjective. Some might take it as normal wear and tear, some fussy ones might take it seriously. There's no standard way to measure whether my statement is TRUE or FALSE.


I tried to provide overall view of the items I'm selling by

- uploading pictures snapped from the normal angles that i usually snap which i think sufficient to provide an overview condition to the potential buyer before they COD with me . The picture posting methods are the same all these while, please refer to here and check all my sales thread. For phones, I'll upload Front, Back, Left and Right, Full set, also Hand. More pictures will be uploaded IF the buyer request specifically which he didn't do so. You may question several forummers who've dealt with me before, I'll purposely snap a macro shot of the part of the requested by the buyer if they requested for it. So don't purposely point fingers asking why I didn't upload top and bottom pictures? Simply because I usually upload 6 pictures and so far most of my buyers got a clear view of the items I'm selling. You may question them.

- providing COD so that buyers can meet up , test kaw kaw, judge the condition themselves and ONLY take if they think that the condition satisfy their own personal standard., I've sold quite a number of stuff, there are certain deals where the buyer chose to call off the deal when it's not up to their own personal standard.


If i were to mislead you, wouldn't it be much easier by

- just mention on my thread, "Item is in good working condition", and don't upload any pictures so that you would do the guessing?
- post some pictures, and try to blur the tear and wear e.g. the button, and photoshop some other visible minor tear and wear making it look like a perfect phone?
- say NO COD, ONLY BANK IN- POSTAGE. so that you can't see the actual condition of the phone until you receive it.
- uploading a few blur pictures taken by cheap skate camera phones instead of uploading macro shots snapped using a 10Megapixel DSLR + 3cm Macro Lens?

Have a random click around the Trade Zone, ask yourself, how many sellers would upload 7 Clear photos snapped clearly using DSLR? What if i buy phone from them, and ask for a refund just because I'm not satisfied with how the seller rate his item saying that "In my opinion, I think your phone condition is only 50% not up to what i expected, so please refund me cause I'm not satisfied with how you rate the condition of your item" Isn't that ridiculous? Why not i just meet up with him to see the actual condition of the item and judge myself, if I'm not satisfied with how he rate his phone condition. I would have just call off the deal and thank him for willing to meet up to let me have a look at the condition before i commit the deal. If I'm busy and can't meet up to see the actual item, alternatively i could request the seller to provide as much clear pictures of the item so that i can judge by my own.

Yes, but he didn't request me to snap more macro photos of the phone.

I would have snapped more pictures IF he request me for it. and NO, I didn't opt to leave the photo of the top. All these while I didn't upload the TOP and also the BOTTOM picture.

p/s: It's hilarious to see a few forummers taking this miserable chance to seek revenge by flaming and framing me up saying "don't trade with me and bla bla" when I'm having a discussion here with another forummer. Yes, I know I've closed your threads or reported you for warning, could you guys grow up and learn your mistakes? You wouldn't need to go through those if you guys are obedient and be a good boy by not going against the Trade Zone's R&R

you are childish, u cannot accept your own mistakes.. still wanna make another story ka???

viking,
i not here to flame you...but if i were you..and i know there is a huge mark ..i would snap the area and let ppl know and state 95% scracthless....then at least ppl can judge whether is that consider 5% scratches or more and bargain with u....

i think the phone not really 95% scracthes as many ppl here also say horible include senior member and even mod himself

i know u just now searching for sentences/phrases of what i wrote and from others that hv points for you to backup yourself but the truth is you got no points against me..try harder

hup maybe u can said that it is 95% like new and other might well said 1% or 99% new rite?

but form my point of view, the buyer did ask which part are the 5%.
and u just simply mention refer to ur pic...which doesnt show the "scratch" rite? does it fair?

if seller answers my question, for sure i ask him to snap pics at that part, n confirm dun wan to buy after that!

You don't need to paste the screenshot of our conversation, I've pasted it on the first few post earlier on when you created this thread. Could you point out which phrase of mine is "making another story" as you claimed?

It would be better if you could provide facts whenever you speak. Don't simply accuse people via baseless statement.

The best solution that i provided to let my customer to know the actual condition is by COD as different people interpret differently on about picture.

p/s: Read properly, I said the overall condition of the phone is 95% Like New. Some might agree some might not agree as it's subjective and NO ONE can say it's wrong or right. That's why I offered COD for you guys to see and judge yourself whether to commit the deal or not.

This post has been edited by vikingw2k: Jul 29 2007, 10:35 PM

i refering to this one laa..

Yes, but he didn't request me to snap more macro photos of the phone.

u try to make like u innocent???? can you??? try harder

viking,u can say base on ur personal opinion.

then i can just say the phone is 99% good condition base on my OPINION?

anyway,look at the pic of TS posted,the bottom part,got a lot of dropped scar and the top CRACKED parts and u said it's 95%?

come on man,TS trusted u so far because u have ur two tag over there and u judge the PDA with 95% good condition?come on,r u crazy or what?cheating ppl by telling ppl it's 95%?

95% means only got one invisible scratched,but the damaged is totally visible even see through the pics that posted,u know,a damage that can see with pic is terrible damaged already,normally 5% damaged are not visible through photo.(N73 pic quality)

Dont judge by ur own opinion and feeling,because of ur two tag over there,u CHEATED ppl by not telling the buyer the actual damaged of the phone.

Refund him if u r a good seller,obviosuly,if u r him,would u happy to receive a 95% good condition phone by a safe trader and a Trade Enforcer with a lot of damaged and cracked?

tell us,if u r him,what will u feel?

a business is a business,but reputation is reputation.Good luck TS.

lost hope in these kind of Trade Enforcers aka Viking.. only know to say that he use to snap 6 pics then he is a free scammer...

ppl trust u dats y they can deal via bank in... cracks consider 95%?? wat the fak? shame on you dude..

its true some ppl said viking is so sombong in his T&C.. so wat? wanna warn me or ban, @sshole..

and MODS ppl have the right to speak... u MODS shud be proud of urself for having a 'Good' Trade Enforcer...

wonder if any of u guys here have same opinion as the seller??? say it 95% like new?? i personally vote for NO...

Few days before i posted this phone to TS, I've COD-ed with a few forummers who came to my house, check my item for sale and some even online using my pc. They saw the phone and most of them told me that it's just like new. you can PM gtoforce about this. Also I've just chat with the previous owner who sold this phone to me. He admitted that he dropped the phone on the floor, I sent him the picture taken by you, he DENIED that it's that bad like the picture when he sold it to me. Also until the very last day, I've another forummer who came and toyed around with my phone right before I post it via poslaju to TS. He too was shocked after seeing the picture that you snapped. It wasn't that bad when I got it back from the previous seller (fullbl4de), the condition is just like new (gtoforce) who came to my house few days later to COD with me, and the very last day before i sent it out to you, (elvin87) toyed around with it and he too said that the condition is not like the picture you've shown. Also, a forummer (leeyuleong), came all the way from Cheras to my house to have a look on my set, he only remembered the most obvious thing is the tear and wear on the button after testing and considered about it. He didn't notice any bad cracks on the top.

Well, I don't wanna point my fingers to anybody.




This post has been edited by vikingw2k: Jul 29 2007, 11:05 PM

ok..let me say something fair here...We guys know the consequences of buying online and not COD.

And this problem is very subjective.It's very hard to judge.I know viking has many issue before this.But previous issue not related to this one.

Here i suggest viking to refund to the buyer..and both share the cost of courier.
Why?Both trading online.Both at fault.

And wat viking need to do after refund and get the pda.
Sell it back in garage at rm 1.2 k with full pictures of the crack.

I believe it's cheap and definetely there will be a buyer.If there is a buyer..The real problem will be solve and the seller name will be cleared as well...

end of story...topic close

i think we need all the forumers that u mention above to clarify what u said here....

i dont really buy the fact above..u mentioned it out..but u said u dun want to point fingers at anyone.

what the buyer and seller need now is a solution.

wow, now finding alibi's, i wonder if the ending will be blame on my mistakes??? poor sad for newbie like me..

A good seller will tell everything they know about the stuff they sell.
I think vikingw2k is pushing away his responsibility for this

Now more people getting themselves involve in this case ya ?