Sorry, can u clarify the proselytizing part?

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I asked you whether you are a Protestant Christian and told you that I usually ignore non-Protestants. Your answer to my question inferred that you are more to Protestant Christian than Catholic Christian, not that you are not a Protestant.
....... Now, it's quite evident you had the intention to mislead me into not ignoring you, a Muslim. It's a form of twisting words to hoodwink and take advantage of others, similar to how people are hoodwinked into investing in MLM money scams.
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In Malaysia, a Muslim who declares himself/herself to be "more to Protestant"(= interested in Protestantism.?) can be hauled up by the local Syariah authorities for the offense of apostasy.

If you are in Malaysia, be careful, eg other Muslims may report you to the Syariah authorities.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Mar 18 2020, 11:51 PM

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_re...a#Proselytising - Freedom of religion in Malaysia

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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Mar 18 2020, 11:43 PM

Thanks for the remainder bro.

But i do reply properly especially when related to religion. Other people be a moslem or christian can feel free to report me.

In christian, there is no 1 faction to represent all. Thus divided between on belief whether u choose to be a catholic, protestant, orthodox, unitarian, trinitarian, so others that lead to heresy in christian.

I must say of all chapters in the bible, I'm really moved by john 17. It's like a summary to jesus life.

Aaah, now i get it.
I thought u tell me i try to convery someone here to become a moslem.

Thanks for clarifying it.

If that time u question my answer such as 'what do u mean by 'more to protestant'?
I will definitely told u that I'm a moslem.

But since everyone here reply so fast, i thought no one thinks about it.
No need to check my background or history of my post, just ask here and u will get the answer.

But i really need evidence showing anyone to have higher authority/divine/power/ability than the father.

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This is a Christian Fellowship thread = not suitable for Christian vs Muslim debate. You may have better luck at the Real World Issues section, where such debates between different religious adherents and even non-religious adherents(eg atheists) are common, eg https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/4861839/+1440
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Mar 19 2020, 09:42 AM

There's no mention of any rebirth in the text, so any rebirth meaning is plain speculation.

In the Christian scriptures, all who will have saving faith in God are foreknew by God, not only the prophets.





So the idea that Jesus was saying He was only a prophet foreknew by God in John 8 is really doesn't hold any water.

In fact, God knows every single person who will ever walk the earth before they were even born.

Jeremiah 1:5 is what we call the doctrine of election.

God elects people to have saving faith. But that's another story for another day.

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Mar 19 2020, 07:20 AM

@aral3005

Besides trying to understand bits and pieces here and there in the scriptures, another way to interpreting scripture is piecing the whole book and find out the author's intention and what he was trying to say.

So what was the apostle John's intention for writing the book?



You see, in the opening of the book, John already said the Word was with God, and was God in the very beginning.

There you have it, the declaration that Jesus was with God, and was God.

This has tripped people over for 2000 years. How can Jesus be God and be with God? John doesn't explain.

That is the mystery of the Trinity.

The whole gospel of John presents Jesus as God.

Even in John 17, there are verses that proves Jesus is God.

Hint: Only God can give eternal life

That's already specific topic.
So far I've only discussed and using the bible without even touching other religion or even using my emotions.

Or do u treat this thread as your online church?

So meaning in the beginning only have 2 gods?

There are verses that crystal clear, and also verses which another verses can contadict it. I will stick with the clear ones.

Ao regarding john 17, did the god died on cross?

For starters the Bible tells us that Jesus created this world. He is the creator not a created being. Only God can create.

John 1:1–4, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men."

Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”

Colossians 1:16, “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.”

Jesus defines Himself as eternal. “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8).

He is, and has, eternal life (1 John 5:11, 12, 20).

He is all-powerful (Revelation 1:8).

The Father even calls Jesus God. “But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.” (Hebrews 1:8).

Jesus is able to forgive sin (Luke 5:20-21); The Bible says only God can forgive sin (Isaiah 43:25).

Jesus accepted worship that according to the Ten Commandments is reserved only for the Almighty (Matthew 14:33). “And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!” So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.” (Matthew 28:9). Upon seeing the risen Savior, the converted skeptic, Thomas, confessed, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:26–29).

Even the angels worship Jesus. “But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” (Hebrews 1:6).

The Scriptures also teach that only God knows the thoughts of a man’s heart (1 Kings 8:39). Yet Jesus consistently knew what people were thinking, “for he knew what was in man” (John 2:25). “Nathanael said to Him, ‘How do You know me?’ Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you’” (John 1:48).

Through the Spirit, Jesus is omnipresent. “Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age” (Matthew 28:20). “For I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city” (Acts 18:10).

He has power to give life, and even resurrected Himself. “No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.” (John 10:18).

“I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live” (John 11:25).

Therefore, by considering the primary definitions of God, and seeing that Jesus fits every one of those definitions, obviously, Jesus must be eternal God.

Those verses you posted above show Jesus glorifying the Father. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God according to the Bible.

They have equal power and glory. But among the three of the Godhead it appears that the Father is recognized as the ultimate authority.

“And you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s” (1 Corinthians 3:23). “But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God” (1 Corinthians 11:3).

The Son constantly receives His glory, power, throne, and prerogatives as Judge from the Father (John 3:35; John 5:22).

Indeed, it was God the Father that “gave” the Son. In fact, while it might not be wrong, we are never told to pray to Jesus or the Spirit - but instead to the Father in the name of the Son.

Yet just because the Father seems to have supreme authority, it does not in any way diminish from the divinity of Jesus and the Spirit.

Also when Jesus was on earth He was human and had to completely rely on the Father for everything.

God the Father calling Jesus His Son, does not mean He is not God as scripture proves.

We are quite familiar with the type of questions moslems use to critique Christianity.

This is one of them.

How can a God die?

Well to answer you, Jesus is not only God but also fully Man. Why Man? To represent the world.

and why is that?

For Saving Man kind. That is why He is called a Saviour.

And did Jesus remain dead?

Answer is No. He was resurrected as evidence that his sacrifice on the cross has fully met all the demands of a Righteous and Just God who we called Father God who is in Heaven.

How is all these possible?

As I've said before only God can exhibit the imposible....all this is rather impossible if Jesus is just Man.


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 20 2020, 12:30 PM

That you have to cautious not to mis-represent the Christian view.

There is a need to understand and research on the essential and economical Trinity, though, this is more of a "cream" understanding of the text.

The Biblical text is clear.

On the one hand, the Father did not die on the cross but the Son did.

But due to coinherence and co-existing and co-working of the Trinity in each of the manifested hypostasis, we can say that God also died on the cross (Acts 20:28 - due to Christ's humanity).

Yet, we cannot say the Father died but only the Son.


That is the simplest that I can say.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Mar 20 2020, 09:56 AM

No, note that there are no God(s) in the text, God is singular.

Jesus is not another God, or a junior God, or a god.

Jesus is God.

The trinity is consistently found in the old and new testament.

It is clear as day.

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About the same God the Son dying on earth and the same God the Father eternally living and ruling in heaven, let me give an analogy about a Muslim man in Malaysia.

Let's say, from a few years ago, he was in Malaysia and daily video-calling his Muslim male friend in Indian Kashmir, eg teaching and sending money to his Kashmiri friend, ie digitally and not physically.
....... Suddenly, the Indian government permanently bans all telecommunications in Indian Kashmir, fully lockdowns Kashmir and the Kashmiri can no longer see his Malaysian friend digitally via video-calls or contact him, even until the day the Kashmiri later dies in Kashmir. To the Kashmiri in Kashmir, his Malaysian friend has disappeared or no longer exist or has practically died, digitally. But in reality and physically, his Malaysian friend is still alive living in Malaysia.

In my analogy, Indian Kashmir is like the Malaysian Muslim man was Christ on earth who died digitally in Kashmir(= on earth), ie no more video-calling to show his existence there; and Malaysia is like he is the Father in heaven and still alive physically.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Mar 20 2020, 02:08 PM

I felt this analogy is quite deficient. Ever heard of Docetism? One of the heresy?

One of the earliest Christian sectarian doctrines, affirming that Christ did not have a real or natural body during his life on earth but only an apparent or phantom one.