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For my answers, please refer to my thread Issue#10 - What is the Holy Trinity.?, as told to you earlier.

Conversely, Satan has more authority and power on earth than in heaven, eg in the Story of Job, God permitted Satan to powerfully afflict Job and his family on earth because of Job's ignorant sin - JOB.1:5 & 3:25, ie he ignorantly sinned against God by offering a vile offering just in case his spoiled sons might commit sin to cause him to lose all his hard-earned prosperity. In effect, Job was trying to buy Prosperity insurance from God to cover for his sons' probable future sins.
....... In the Malay world, the demonic powers of kampung bomohs to concoct spells/charms and hexes are legend, eg minyak dagu, jampi, etc.

If God were to summon Satan from earth to heaven, Satan would be powerless and has no authority in front of the heavenly throne of God. This exact scenario will happen when God sends Satan, his demons and 2ndly-resurrected human followers/unbelievers to eternal hell or the lake of fire on Judgment Day - REV.20:11-15.
....... It is the same Satan who appears as above on earth and in heaven.

Similarly, it is the same God who appears on earth with less authority/powers and in heaven with full authority/powers.

Believers need to know this clearly before they die on this rotten earth, be resurrected/raptured, live with Jesus Christ for a thousand years on a new earth and can eventually see God the Father on His mighty throne in heaven. Like I said before, a great gulf separates heaven and earth/hell because of Satan's rebellion in heaven and Adam's fall on earth. Only the Lord/God Jesus Christ can bridge this gulf and reconcile fallen Man on earth with God in heaven. It's like only Jesus Christ can miraculously bring His people to live with Him on the sun.
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Do u mean jesus teachings?
If it means to follow what's already taught by jesus, at the same time u have faith in jesus, and not don't fully understand it - that's not blind faith.

At least we need to understand what's been given to us, and follow them.
I do understand what's jesus's been giving to us - teachings, commandments - then i follow
No need to dig as why jesus say that, why not saying something suitable to your expectations, worst part try to change jesus words/the teachings itself

U have to understand why u believe in jesus, and after that, just follow his teachings without question it

I read last paragraph, are u indicating jesus is a messiah/prophet?

Mind to tell how the same God as in heaven appears on earth with less authority?isn't that 2 different persons?

lets look at what the bible say.


Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
Mark 12:29‭-‬31 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/mrk.12.29-31.NKJV

then Jesus declares Himself equal with God

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:16‭-‬18 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/jhn.5.16-18.NKJV

then Jesus said He will leave and send someone else in His place

“These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
John 14:25‭-‬26 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/jhn.14.25-26.NKJV

this is the same Holy Spirit who decended upon Jesus when He was baptised by John the Baptist

And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’
John 1:32‭-‬33 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/jhn.1.32-33.NKJV

so what is it? God is one or three now?

on top of that in Revelation it says.

“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, ‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
Revelation 3:1 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/rev.3.1.NKJV

so is the Christian God, one, three or seven?

the answer is blowing in the wind my friend.

but lets take another look at what the bible have to say.

firstly, God always refered to Himself in the prural

Gen 1: 1, 26 says

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
........
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Genesis 1:1‭, ‬26 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/gen.1.1-26.NKJV

what did the apostle Paul say?

Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God; for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.
I Thessalonians 4:1‭-‬8 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/1th.4.1-8.NKJV

yet in another letter Paul states

I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Ephesians 4:1‭-‬6 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/eph.4.1-6.NKJV

is Paul confused?

or is it that our minds cannot wrap around the reality that God is not bound by natural laws or limited to human understanding, being able to be One yet Three ?

the clue is actually found in Isaiah 11

There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord . His delight is in the fear of the Lord , And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears;
Isaiah 11:1‭-‬3 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/isa.11.1-3.NKJV

these verses are attributed to Jesus, whose coming was foretold by Isaiah, having the seven fold Spirit of God (Rev 3:1) resting upon Him (John 1:33)
In simple terms the Spirit of God manifested in seven ways (for the lack of a better word)



although i will be first to admit that this is not concrete proof that God is One yet Three, to my mind, God had to simplify His manifestation to a level we humans can at least identify with. i.e. in the form of a man Jesus Christ.

if you think this is confusing, wait till you try to grasp how Jesus can be fully man and fully God at the same time, to fulfill the requirement for a redeeming sacrifice for all the sins of man.


i fall back to my earlier post, that i do not need to comprehend how Three can be One because God will be God and we need the element of faith when it comes to trusting Him.

the bible plainly states

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Hebrews 11:6 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/heb.11.6.NKJV

so who am i to insist i have to understand first then trust?

but having said that, i must also stress that i believe also because the bible is the word of God.

As a whole, it is a coherent, consistent and pretty amazing book with more than 40 writers spanning more than a thousand years apart. And most of the writers did not know each other but had one Spirit inspiring them to say and record words that will later be compiled into what we have today, the modern bible.

when I choose to follow it's teachings, i find that i benefit and at the same time benefit those around me, consistently bring good and love and peace etc, demonstrating that the God that i believe in is a good God, because you will know a tree by the kind of fruit it bears.

coming back to your post
is it one person or two persons?

its supposed to be three yet one.
God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit

how?
thats one of the questions i have in my mental note book.

MATT.13: = The Purpose of Parables

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
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There is a historical reason why most of the Jews rejected Jesus son of Joseph or Isa bin Yusof as the promised Messiah/Christ/Mahdi or Saviour/Deliverer.

In 1500 BC, God gave Moses and the Jews His Law to curb their inborn tendency to commit sins, the Covenant of the Law of blessings or curses(= DEUT.28) and gifted them their own nation of Judah by ejecting the Philistines and Canaanites. The Jews' OK obedience to God's Law brought them the peak of blessings during the reign of King David and his son Solomon in 1000 BC. Thereafter, the Jews and their kings gradually descended into idolatry and disobedience to God's Law, resulting in them suffering foreign rule from 800 BC onward.

It was at this time that some latter prophets told the Jews about a coming Messiah/Christ to "save" or deliver them. Unfortunately, the Jews' self-expectation of the Messiah/Christ was to save/deliver them from foreign rule.
....... Hence, when Jesus s/o Joseph blabbered on about the kingdom of heaven/God and did not do anything about saving them from foreign Roman rule in 30 AD, they rejected Him as the Messiah/Christ and also rejected His message about Him saving them from hell. In effect, the Jews desired for the gift of the kingdom of earth, not the gift of a futuristic kingdom of heaven because they falsely believed that they would still be saved from hell (= go to heaven) by keeping God's Law or Moses Law.

There are Spirit-filled Christians and non-spiritual non-Christians. There are mature adults-in-Christ and babes-in-Christ(eg most new born-again Gentile Christians). Only Spirit-filled adults-in-Christ can fully understand the Word of God in the Bible. A new born-again Gentile Christian may take years of Bible study and life experience to reach such spiritual maturity. .......

1COR.2: = Spiritual Wisdom

6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
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1COR.3: = Sectarianism Is Carnal

3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Mar 17 2020, 10:12 PM

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I already told you a few times who Jesus s/o Joseph or Isa bin Yusof is, according to the Word of God. It is up to you to accept or reject what is stated in the Bible about Jesus Christ.

1THESS.4:16-17 says that the Lord/God Jesus Christ will be returning to this rotten earth to save/deliver His people from persecution/prosecutipn by the powerful governments of the world and destroy/judge the unbelievers and this earth. Some mature spiritual Christians expect His return within the next few decades = coming soon.

Of course the Muslims have their own version for the return of their Mahdi/Messiah/Christ, ie to save/deliver the Muslims and destroy/judge the non-Muslims. .... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi
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Let's just wait and see who has the truth. No point arguing between Christians and Muslims about the Return of Christ/Mahdi/Messiah to this earth or about the way to heaven or hell after death since it's about different beliefs about the future.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Mar 17 2020, 10:31 PM

The word of God are not dead letters meaning normal letters but are of God's spirit.

So yes, you need the Holy Spirit to have revelation of the Bible.

No wonder When I explain to you..the phrase before Abraham was, I AM you couldn't understand.

You're a moslem yes?

I think i have ask this before - is there any verse showing these 3 are 1?
I think unknown warrior already tried to answer by posted a verse but i found the translation to have different meaning from his.

The first commandment is when jesus speaks to the jews.
'Our god' is the father in this sentence, not jesus.
Or are u trying to push forward about hypostatic union of jesus?

In john 20:17, jesus clearly differentiate himself from god:
“Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’”
Which tell us jesus is referring to the same person - the father

I do agree with hebrew 11:6
As jesus said in john 8:29
"He who sent Me is with Me. He has not left Me alone, because I always do what pleases Him.”

1, 3, 7?
Why u dont include all 12 disciples?

Only God has this ability. To be Triune and yet distinct.

I do agree
Only discuss what's from the bible without mix it from other belief or religion.
So far we have good discussion exchanging verses and and without any input from other religion.

Which one of the god in trinity has this ability?
Are these 3 gods in trinity/triune co equal?

In previous post someone already mentioned about authority given to jesus. As in john 5:30:
"I can do nothing by Myself; I judge only as I hear. And My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."

I stand firm that the father is the only true god as jesus said in john 17:3:
"Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent."

In all bible, this is a saying by jesus himself, and exclusive to the father alone as there are many gods depicted in the bible.

No verse mention in the bible that anything or anyone to have greater power or higher authority than the father.

That's my stand based on the bible, not by emotions or my imagination.

Well all those distinct character is to prove that God is distinct and yet triune.

John 10:30 (NIV) - I and the Father are one."

John 17:21 (NIV) -that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

the problem here is that we are trying to find a humanly understandable answer to the question how can God be one yet three. which frankly is quite impossible.

this is where faith kicks in.

if we can't accept that, then it is just too bad for us.

this is why i keep pointing out that the experience part of our relationship with Christ plays an important part.

as we put our trust in God, He in turns reveals His reality to us.

don't ask me why, but faith is an important ingredient.

Bro. Unknown Warrior, I think this thread has been hijacked. Becareful brethren.

Yes I know..He's a moslem.

He tried very hard to convince Christians that Christ Jesus is just a prophet.

It's impossible for our Lord to be a mere human prophet.

Before Abraham was, I AM. <---That is more enough to convince even the lay person.

How can a mere prophet who is born after Abraham say He is before Abraham? Doesn't make any sense doesn't it?

That's the part he quietly evaded.

If I were to show this Zakir Naik, what would he say? I wonder...

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 18 2020, 01:17 PM

it is ok to engage him in a proper discussion

Well I agree, as long as the discussion or point being made is not repeative over and over again. Now...that would be a problem.

It is important that in reading any scriptures, you let the text explain what it means rather than to put your own meaning into the text.


From the jews' question, it is obvious that Jesus was claiming either He was the oldest person alive (Abraham died more than a thousand years before Jesus came) or He was claiming the Eternal attribute of God. Notice that it is not I was or I will be.

The jews are super careful to not simply misuse the name of God, the YHWH.

Leviticus 24 says that blaspheming the name of God must be stoned to death.

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Mar 18 2020, 05:06 AM

The bolded part that you wrote above is strange. The Word is none other than Jesus Himself (God the Son). See John 1.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him.

8 He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light.

9 That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name.

13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Lel

I finished my work last night and only to be able to read 2 posts since it's a long post and started to rain so i just hv to get back home immediately.

Fyi, I'm a moslem.
I'm not hijacking this thread, and discuss any issue in the bible critically without even giving or creating my own explanation to fit my own imagination - i let the verse speaks as it is.

I do appreciate those replying me engaging with me with academic manner, not some using emotions just to strengthen their expalanation.

Feel free to think if I'm unfit to be in this thread.

Read my post since the beginning i started reply in this v15 thread.