It's a long post #624
Anyway thanks for bringing up the verses.

Still studying your post btw.

Yes I'm a moslem.
Regarding john 8, I've already replied to u the verse and my stand.
U can stick to your understanding and i will stick to mine.

Like i said before, if jesus and the father are one, why u dont include all the disciples and acdept them to be equal to jesus and the father?

I hope we can becareful when reading the bible.
Can you show me where did i hijacked this thread?why would u feel threatened by using 'hijacked' word when i engage with knowledge and even no harsh word or emotions?

That's why most verses in clear are crystal clear without even need for an expalanation to back it up.

But some verses do contradict one another, let alone if we try to fit it according to individual understanding.

I did post my reply, and u even did reply to my reply.
I stated that my stand is the father is the only true god as mentioned by jesus in john 17:3.

Even i started posting in this thread when someone mention about the father, not jesus.

Thank you bro.
I do really appreciate your effort.
Even if we have different understanding, i do respect your attitude.

Then i think we can move on to other topics besides john 8?
Or are u gonna repeat about it again?

The 50 years old part is connected with the rebirth if I'm not mistaken.
I do believe before born into this world, all prophets already existed and appointed in plain of God's knowledge. Besides jeremiah 1:5, i do remember there is another verse mentioning about this but forgot the place.

If we read john 8 from first verse, the issue is about the prophecy of jesus, no issue of godhood was discussed.

Agree with u.
Word of god on this verse is the jesus.

In my previous post I've already mentioned why we must careful when interpreting or try to explain a verse, especially if it might involves translation error.

Please dont let your emotions invading this group discussion.

The point still stands.

Jesus was born after Abraham. It would not make sense to say He is before Abraham.

You understand what does it mean..Born after Abraham?

----------------------------------------------------

If all prophets already existed, so you're impying prophets are magical creatures that isn't human? They can live thousands of years?

Jesus was a prophet who lived before Abraham then suddenly disapear and born as a virgin in Mary?

Is that critical thinking or even rationale?

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 18 2020, 02:42 PM

I think from academic point of view: there is a good reference: The Revelation of the Name YHWH to Moses Perspectives from Judaism, the Pagan Graeco-Roman World, and Early Christianity.

Here are the list of scholars who present from Judaism to Greco-roman to early Christianity.




Basically, this selection of papers allows us to conclude that the Name of God and its revelation to Moses constitute a major theme which runs from the book of Exodus through the Old Testament, early Judaism, and early Christianity. It also attracted pagan philosophical interest, both positive and negative. One of the most important results to emerge from this volume is the insight that the Name of God was not only perceived from an insider’s perspective, but also provoked a reaction from outsiders. The combined perspectives show the fundamental importance of the divine Name for the formation of Jewish and Christian identities.

Even the critics from the Greco-roman world knew and assumed that is what the early Jewish believes.

1) The classical world e.g. te philosopher Pythagoras dependent on the mysteries of Moses-Mochos, and characterized Moses’ God, in an ontological way, as ‘He who is’, as ‘the noetic light’, and ‘the highest God’. These authors considered him unnameable and invisible, called him the ‘one true God’, ‘He who is above the seven celestial spheres, i.e. the creator’, and named him1 not only ‘Iao’ (Greek for ‘Yahweh’) and ‘Sabaoth’ but also ‘Dionysus’ and ‘Jupiter Sabazius’.

2) Greek philosopher Numenius of Apemea shows Moses holds a special status as a Platonist avant la lettre, and that the episode of the revelation of God’s Name as ‘Being’ (ontology).

3) Numenius, a Platonist philosopher, has positive evaluation of Moses, the Jews and their God contrasts sharply with the attack by another second-century ce Platonist, Celsus, on the Christian Origen. This issue is treated in a
Whereas Numenius considers the Jews to stand out from the other peoples who claim to possess age-old wisdom, Celsus criticizes the Jews and the Christians for claiming a monopoly in this. He argues ‘that the Jews and the Christians were wrong not to worship Zeus, for this
is in fact the same god as theirs, be it that the Greeks just happen to call him differently.’

The Greeks knew what the Jewish was talking about.

It is no surprise that in this Gospel of John, Jesus is presented as the Old Testament Kyrios, YHWH.

I end with this quote on John:

First of all, Jesus’ I am-sayings allude to the Old Testament name of God. Like many other exegetes, David Mark Ball associates these sayings not in the first place with Exod 3:14 LXX (§g≈ efimi ı vÖn), but predominantly with Deutero-Isaiah (cf. also Lietaert Peerbolte, this vol., §4 on the Deutero-Isaian background of Phil 2:9), where yna, awhAyna, and awh ykna frequently occur as sayings of YHWH, which were translated in the Septuagint as §g≈ efimi. 14 We will look at some of the I am-sayings in the Gospel of John.

In John 6:20 Jesus says, when he walks on the water and a strong wind was blowing: §g≈ efimi: mØ fobe›sye. 15 Ball points to several Old Testament texts where YHWH combines the very same expressions, ‘I am’ and ‘do not be afraid’ (Gen 26:24; 46:3; Jer 1:8; 1:17; 26:28 LXX = 46:28 MT; 49:11 LXX = 42:11 MT).16 One might add that the story that Jesus walks on the water also corresponds with YHWH trampling the waves of the sea, according to Job 9:8 and Ps 89:10.

In John 8:12 Jesus says: ‘I am the light of the world’. Thus the evangelist identifies him with the Logos in the Prologue, who is called the light of men ( John 1:4–9).17 In the Old Testament YHWH is repeatedly called the light (Exod 13:21–22; Ps 27:1; Isa 60:1; 60:19).

In John 8:18, 24, and 28 Jesus again says §g≈ efimi; in vv. 24 and 28 it is used without predicate. Ball interprets these texts as allusions to words of YHWH in Deutero-Isaiah (43:10; 43:25; 52:6).18

In John 8:56–58 Jesus refers to Abraham who rejoiced to see ‘my day’, after which he says: ‘before Abraham was, I am’. The day that Abraham saw may be interpreted with regard to the three angels, one of whom was YHWH, who visited Abraham and Sarah (Gen 18:1–15),19 but the day of Jesus has also been identified as the eschatological day of YHWH.20 In the commentaries Abraham’s vision of Jesus’ day in John 8:56 is often related to Isaiah’s temple vision of Jesus ( John 12:40–41), but it must be admitted that the purport of John 8:56 is less precise.21 In any case, in John 8:58 Jesus clearly alludes to his pre-existence. Since §g≈ efimi occurred in John 8 several times already, and since these words could be interpreted as references to YHWH, it may be assumed that in John 8:58 as well
the Johannine Jesus alludes to his essential nature.2

John 10:11, ‘I am the good shepherd’, refers among other texts to Ezek 34, where YHWH is the shepherd who will take care of his people (Ezek 34:12–22; 34:31; only in 34:23 the shepherd is David). Some other texts that depict YHWH as a shepherd are Pss 23:1–4; 79:13; 80:1; Isa 40:11.23

In John 18:5–6 Jesus’ twofold saying ‘I am’, without predicate, was so impressive that those who had come to arrest him drew back and fell to the ground. This looks like a theophany. In John 18:8 Jesus confirms his ‘I am’ for the third time.2

Ball concludes from these and other texts in the Fourth Gospel that by the application of §g≈ efimi to the Johannine Jesus, an identification with the words and salvation of the God of DeuteroIsaiah, i.e. YHWH, is implied.25



Urk, the quotes are hard to copy paste. But the point is clear. Cheers!

They have existed either magically or spiritually i dont know cz the bible didnt elaborate it, hence is why i quote the jeremiah 1:5.

Existed is not same as born. Same as when we died doesn't mean we not exist spiritually, our body died. Applied also to when we born, our body is born, not our spirit.

Where does it say jesus lived before abraham and disappeared?

Imagine i read and reply at the same time study the chapter on mobile.
Long post like this easily can fill my screen entirely.

.
It's not nice and respectful to lie to others. You have wasted my time by lying to me. I think God/Jesus has punished you for it, as per His law of ni4ni, ie wasted your time. God is real and watching us.
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This verse in Jeremiah 1:5 in context refers to the prophet Jeremiah, not Jesus Christ.





This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 18 2020, 10:00 PM

FYI:

Afaik:

Intentionally proselytizing to a Muslim is an offense under Malaysian Law.

1PETER.5: = 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
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I'm more to protestant, I'm not a protestant.