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 LYN Christian Fellowship Thread Ver 15

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SUSlurkingaround
post Mar 20 2020, 06:32 PM

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QUOTE(pehkay @ Mar 20 2020, 06:07 PM)
innocent.gif  I felt this analogy is quite deficient. Ever heard of Docetism? One of the heresy?

One of the earliest Christian sectarian doctrines, affirming that Christ did not have a real or natural body during his life on earth but only an apparent or phantom one.
*
.
I don't think my simple analogy analogues the Malaysian Muslim man in Malaysia appearing in the video-call with his Kashmiri friend in Indian Kashmir as an apparition or phantom = analoging Jesus Christ as appearing as an apparition or phantom on earth in 1st-century AD.

My analogy is similar to holograms, .......

.

This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Mar 20 2020, 06:34 PM
SUSlurkingaround
post Mar 20 2020, 07:31 PM

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QUOTE
As regarding john 17, did the god died on cross?

QUOTE(pehkay @ Mar 20 2020, 06:07 PM)
innocent.gif  I felt this analogy is quite deficient. Ever heard of Docetism? One of the heresy?

One of the earliest Christian sectarian doctrines, affirming that Christ did not have a real or natural body during his life on earth but only an apparent or phantom one.
*
.
If my analogy is deficient and/or heretic, do you have a better and/or non-heretic analogy to explain to others that God did not die or did die on the Cross as mentioned in JOHN.17.?
.

This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Mar 20 2020, 07:35 PM
pehkay
post Mar 20 2020, 09:59 PM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Mar 20 2020, 07:31 PM)
.
If my analogy is deficient and/or heretic, do you have a better and/or non-heretic analogy to explain to others that God did not die or did die on the Cross as mentioned in JOHN.17.?
.
*
This is hard because there is no known analogy that can describe this. We just have to clear of the nuances and subteties as presented in the Scripture and those before us.

Firstly, we have to be clear what is coinherence. Coinherence refers to the mutual indwelling of the three of the Divine Trinity. In the Gospel of John the Lord repeatedly told His disciples that He was in the Father and the Father was in Him (John 10:38; 14:10, 20; 17:21, 23). The coinhering oneness of the Divine Trinity is fundamental to understanding how the Father, the Son, and the Spirit can be one God. The coinherence of the Divine Trinity is beyond illustration, as it has no example in the physical universe. Even more, it is beyond the ability of man-made systems of logic to explain. It is the greatest mystery concerning the Triune God and shatters all attempts to neatly explain the Trinity.

This is one of the "architecture" of the Triune God.

The coinherence of the three of the Divine Trinity is eternal and immutable. It did not cease when the Son of God became a man through incarnation, nor was it limited to the brief time when the Son lived on earth in His humanity. The Bible tells us that all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily (Col.
2:9) and that He was God manifested in the flesh (1 Tim. 3:16) and was God with us (Matt. 1:23). It does not say that the fullness of one-third of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily, nor does it say that one-third of God was manifested in the flesh or that He was one-third of God with us.

What does this mean is:

This oneness of essence explains the fact that, while Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as respects their personality, are distinct subsistences, there is an intercommunion of persons and an immanence of one divine person in another which permits the peculiar work of one to be ascribed …to either of
the other, and the manifestation of one to be recognized in the manifestation of the other.
I think this quote is from Strong.

The persons of the Holy Trinity are not separable individuals. Each involves the others; the coming of each is the coming of the others. So, the coming of the Spirit must have involved the coming of the Son.

1) We must be careful to avoid understanding that the Father (or the Spirit) was the subject of the suffering in the death of Christ,

2) but we must be equally careful to avoid understanding that the Son was separate from the Father and the Spirit in the crucifixion.

What we must maintain is that in the visible death of Christ the three of the Trinity operated so as to make manifest the distinct activity of the Son on the cross. It was indeed the Son whom we should identify as the subject of the death of the God-man (even though we confess that God Himself does not die!), but we must hold at the same time the realization that the Father and the Spirit were also in operation and that the operation of the three made the distinct action of the Son possible.

Thomas F. Torrance, an esteemed Scottish reformed theologian, also said the same things to the involvement of the entire Triune God in the work of redemption:

QUOTE
‘God crucified’! That is the startling truth of the Gospel. Of course only if God is a Trinity, does this make sense, for it was not the Father or the Spirit who was crucified but the incarnate Son of God, crucified certainly in his differentiation from the Father and the Spirit, but nevertheless crucified in his unbroken oneness with the Father and the Spirit in being and activity. The whole Trinity is involved in the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross.



This is why Paul can say: Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood (Acts 20:28)

This post has been edited by pehkay: Mar 21 2020, 08:06 AM
aral3005
post Mar 21 2020, 01:31 AM

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Long post, and touch many topics here.
But at least u are using the verses, and not emotions or imagination.
Will bookmark this post first and ask u later, if I ccome across one.

The father is not 'seems' to have supreme authority. He is the absolute authority. U can find on how many verses mention the father that gave jesus authority/miracles/knowledge.

So did the god died on the cross?
aral3005
post Mar 21 2020, 01:34 AM

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It's familiar question from non christian cz if u ask 10 christian this question, possibly u will get 10 different explanations for it.

Again are u try to bring forward hypostatic union of jesus?
I dont ask whether jesus remain dead.
aral3005
post Mar 21 2020, 01:37 AM

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The son, one of the gods in trinity died?is that what u mean?

Are all 3 gods equal to each other?


aral3005
post Mar 21 2020, 01:41 AM

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Jesus the god of the earth is not digital or exist as imaginary person.
He was born, has normal human daily life, and exist as a man.

Ur analogy is about 2 completely different persons.
aral3005
post Mar 21 2020, 01:43 AM

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Yes, this is a docetism.
In fact, one must know all the heresy in christianity so that their belief is not an individual perception eventhough said to be based on the bible.
aral3005
post Mar 21 2020, 01:49 AM

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I might miss it from ur long explanation.
But according to ur understanding, did the god died on the cross?
TSunknown warrior
post Mar 21 2020, 10:30 AM

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QUOTE(aral3005 @ Mar 21 2020, 01:34 AM)
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It's familiar question from non christian cz if u ask 10 christian this question, possibly u will get 10 different explanations for it.

Again are u try to bring forward hypostatic union of jesus?
I dont ask whether jesus remain dead.
*
The Trinity is never an issue. It is an established doctrine.
SUSlurkingaround
post Mar 21 2020, 11:02 AM

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QUOTE
As regarding john 17, did the god died on cross? 

QUOTE(pehkay @ March 20 2020, 09:59 PM)
This is hard because there is no known analogy that can describe this. We just have to clear of the nuances and subteties as presented in the Scripture and those before us.

Firstly, we have to be clear what is coinherence. Coinherence refers to the mutual indwelling of the three of the Divine Trinity.  ....

.
Let me give another analogy from JOHN.1:9 which states that Jesus Christ was the Light of the world/earth(light on earth comes from the sun) and LUKE.23:44-45 and ACTS.2:20 which state that the sun failed(= the sky went dark) over Jerusalem in the afternoon when Jesus Christ died on the Cross =
= the death of Jesus Christ, God-in-the-flesh, on the Cross at Jerusalem was like a rarely-happening total solar eclipse when the earth went totally dark at Jerusalem in the afternoon because the sun(= God the Father) was totally blocked by the moon(= Satan). .......

https://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/...the-crucifixion - What does science say about the darkness during the Crucifixion?

JOHN.1:9 (NKJV) = 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

LUKE.23: (ASV) = 44 And it was now about the sixth hour, and a darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 the sun’s light failing: and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

ACTS2: = 20
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the day of the Lord come,
That great and notable day:
21
And it shall be, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

.

This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Mar 21 2020, 12:05 PM
SUSlurkingaround
post Mar 21 2020, 11:24 AM

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QUOTE(pehkay @ Mar 20 2020, 06:07 PM)
innocent.gif  I felt this analogy is quite deficient. Ever heard of Docetism? One of the heresy?

One of the earliest Christian sectarian doctrines, affirming that Christ did not have a real or natural body during his life on earth but only an apparent or phantom one.
*
.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/analogy
QUOTE
Analogy: ... a comparison between things that have similar features, often used to help explain a principle or idea:

He drew an analogy between the brain and a vast computer.
It is sometimes easier to illustrate an abstract concept by analogy with (= by comparing it with) something concrete.
An analogy of the brain with the computer is similar to my analogy of the Malaysian Muslim man in Malaysia with him being digitally dead to his Kashmiri friend in Indian Kashmir, ie his Kashmiri friend can no longer see him in Kashmir via video-calls for the rest of his Kashmiri life because the Indian government had permanently shutdown telecommunications and imposed lockdown in Kashmir.

A brain with soul is not a soulless computer. The Malaysian Muslim man in Malaysia is not Jesus Christ on earth. These are just analogies used to explain abstract concepts.
.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Docetism
QUOTE
Docetism, (from Greek dokein, “to seem”), Christian heresy and one of the earliest Christian sectarian doctrines, affirming that Christ did not have a real or natural body during his life on earth but only an apparent or phantom one. Though its incipient forms are alluded to in the New Testament, such as in the Letters of John (e.g., 1 John 4:1–3; 2 John 7), Docetism became more fully developed as an important doctrinal position of Gnosticism, a religious dualist system of belief arising in the 2nd century ad which held that matter was evil and the spirit good and claimed that salvation was attained only through esoteric knowledge, or gnosis. The heresy developed from speculations about the imperfection or essential impurity of matter. More thoroughgoing Docetists asserted that Christ was born without any participation of matter and that all the acts and sufferings of his life, including the Crucifixion, were mere appearances. They consequently denied Christ’s Resurrection and Ascension into heaven. Milder Docetists attributed to Christ an ethereal and heavenly body but disagreed on the degree to which it shared the real actions and sufferings of Christ. Docetism was attacked by all opponents of Gnosticism, especially by Bishop Ignatius of Antioch in the 2nd century.

.

This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Mar 21 2020, 11:52 AM
aral3005
post Mar 21 2020, 01:15 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Mar 21 2020, 10:30 AM)
The Trinity is never an issue. It is an established doctrine.
*
The trinity is one of fundamental issue in Christianity
Even this issue split Christian followers into several fractions, and even lead to heresy
And some of fundamental basis making up trinity even contradict some verses in the bible.

What do u mean when it's NEVER an issue?

Do sharing even when we have different opinion.
But do not say as if that's the only truth as it can mislead.
TSunknown warrior
post Mar 21 2020, 01:19 PM

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QUOTE(aral3005 @ Mar 21 2020, 01:15 PM)
The trinity is one of fundamental issue in Christianity
Even this issue split Christian followers into several fractions, and even lead to heresy
And some of fundamental basis making up trinity even contradict some verses in the bible.

What do u mean when it's NEVER an issue?

Do sharing even when we have different opinion.
But do not say as if that's the only truth as it can mislead.
*
John 10:30 (NIV) - I and the Father are one.

John 17:21 (NIV) - that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.



aral3005
post Mar 21 2020, 01:33 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Mar 21 2020, 01:19 PM)
John 10:30 (NIV) - I and the Father are one.

John 17:21 (NIV) - that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
*
Are u suggesting christian initially was binitarian as stated in john 10:30?

Second verse in ur reply stated not only jesus and father are one, but also including those his followers.
Jesus mentioned it in the very next verse john 10:22

"I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one"
aral3005
post Mar 21 2020, 01:36 PM

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Sorry, it's john 17:22, not 10:22
TSunknown warrior
post Mar 21 2020, 01:39 PM

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QUOTE(aral3005 @ Mar 21 2020, 01:33 PM)
Are u suggesting christian initially was binitarian as stated in john 10:30?

Second verse in ur reply stated not only jesus and father are one, but also including those his followers.
Jesus mentioned it in the very next verse john 10:22

"I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one"
*
John 10:33 (NIV) - "We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."




SUSlurkingaround
post Mar 21 2020, 06:50 PM

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QUOTE
John 17:21 (NIV) - that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
QUOTE
Second verse in ur reply stated not only jesus and father are one, but also including those his followers.
Jesus mentioned it in the very next verse john 17:22

"I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one"

.
The Father, Son and Christians are one through God's Spirit. .......

JOHN.4: = 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

JOHN.1: = 32 And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”

2COR.3: = 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

JOHN.6: = 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

JOHN.14: = Jesus Promises Another Helper

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

.
aral3005
post Mar 21 2020, 11:02 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Mar 21 2020, 01:39 PM)
John 10:33 (NIV) - "We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
*
God in the bible usually not referred to 'the only true god'. Even son of god has the same implementation.

That's why in john 10:36, jesus add to clarify more:
"then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?"
aral3005
post Mar 21 2020, 11:07 PM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Mar 21 2020, 06:50 PM)
.
The Father, Son and Christians are one through God's Spirit. .......

JOHN.4: =  24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

JOHN.1: = 32 And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.  33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”

2COR.3: =  17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

JOHN.6: =  63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

JOHN.14: = Jesus Promises Another Helper

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

.
*
Good point there from john 14:
-jesus pray to the father
-father will give 'another' helper: which imply jesus was also a helper
-this helper = spirit of truth

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