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 LYN Christian Fellowship Thread Ver 15

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SUSlurkingaround
post Oct 4 2019, 04:28 PM

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QUOTE(Roman Catholic @ Oct 4 2019, 03:06 PM)
Lets cut out chase, just state any miracles you have done.
*
MATTHEW.7:21-23 (NKJV) = I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

2THESS.2:9-11 = 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

JOHN.20:28-31 = 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

That You May Believe

30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

HEBREWS.1 & 2 = God’s Supreme Revelation

1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, ...

Do Not Neglect Salvation

2:1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

1COR.13:8-13 = 8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
yaokb
post Oct 4 2019, 10:17 PM

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I find that if you simply ignore posters like these, they eventually fade back into the woodwork.

This dupe probably is one of our regular friends who visit us from time to time.

His doctrines are unusual to say the least but are mostly harmless other than give the rest of us a bad rep.

So, no harm done
alexkos
post Oct 5 2019, 09:22 AM

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Alright, good morning Saturday. So who's ready for some Calvinism dose?

How to contrast 'you didn't choose me, I chose you' (John 15) with 'repent and believe?'

Is salvation the will of God (hence choosing, election), or the will of man (free will to accept or reject Christ)?
yaokb
post Oct 5 2019, 10:31 AM

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QUOTE(alexkos @ Oct 5 2019, 09:22 AM)
Alright, good morning Saturday. So who's ready for some Calvinism dose?

How to contrast 'you didn't choose me, I chose you' (John 15) with 'repent and believe?'

Is salvation the will of God (hence choosing, election), or the will of man (free will to accept or reject Christ)?
*
Actually both are correct.

We have to look at context.

In John 15, who was Jesus speaking to?

A large crowd or a small group of 11 people who already believe, and most of them will die while spreading the gospel?
Jesus was telling them they are chosen by Him to bear much fruit, not regarding salvation.

where else repent and believe , first spoken by Jesus in Mark 1:15 and He was addressing the public in Galilee.

moral of story.

Always check the context.


SUSazriqii
post Oct 5 2019, 10:50 AM

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QUOTE(alexkos @ Oct 5 2019, 09:22 AM)
Alright, good morning Saturday. So who's ready for some Calvinism dose?

How to contrast 'you didn't choose me, I chose you' (John 15) with 'repent and believe?'

Is salvation the will of God (hence choosing, election), or the will of man (free will to accept or reject Christ)?
*
God predestined you to repent. Justification by faith alone doesn't contradict with a person's repentent. Faith is the gift of God. If God don't elect you, you just can't believe.
SUSlurkingaround
post Oct 5 2019, 11:30 AM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Oct 2 2019, 10:26 AM)
Fyi, Bible verses against OSAS, ie the risk or possibility of Christians losing faith = losing salvation, eg through lawlessness or the willful breaking of God's commandments/laws. .......

REV.14:12 (NKJV) = 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

2TIM.4:6-8 = Paul’s Valedictory

6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.
*
Other Bible verses against OSAS, .......

PHILIPPIANS.2:12-13 (NKJV) = 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
.

1TIMOTHY.4:1-3 = The Great Apostasy

4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
.

HEBREWS.10:26-31 = 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
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HEBREWS.6:1-8 = The Peril of Not Progressing

6 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
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LUKE.9:57-62 = The Cost of Discipleship

57 Now it happened as they journeyed on the road, that someone said to Him, “Lord, I will follow You wherever You go.”

58 And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.”

59 Then He said to another, “Follow Me.”

But he said, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.”

60 Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God.”

61 And another also said, “Lord, I will follow You, but let me first go and bid them farewell who are at my house.”

62 But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”
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HEBREWS.10:19-25 = Hold Fast Your Confession

19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
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TITUS.1:10-16 = The Elders’ Task

10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.
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2TIMOTHY.2:8-13 = 8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the [c]elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

11 This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.
.

HEBREWS.4:1-3 = The Promise of Rest

4 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
_______ _______
.
OSAS proponents often quote JOHN.10:27-30 to make their point that every person who has been once saved is always saved, no matter what he/she will decide and will do, as if he/she has no free will like a preprogrammed robot or stringed puppet and can never lose faith or deny the faith or depart from the faith.
....... If you cross-reference JOHN.10:27-30 with JOHN.17:6-26 and read them in context, you will see that Jesus/God was actually referring only to His 11+1 apostles, to whom He had guaranteed salvation, ie only 1 apostle was lost or snatched by the devil out of God's hand = Judas Iscariot, who was later repaced by God with Paul(ACTS.9:15-16).


This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Oct 13 2019, 10:59 PM
SUSlurkingaround
post Oct 5 2019, 12:12 PM

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QUOTE(alexkos @ Oct 5 2019, 09:22 AM)
Alright, good morning Saturday. So who's ready for some Calvinism dose?

How to contrast 'you didn't choose me, I chose you' (John 15) with 'repent and believe?'

Is salvation the will of God (hence choosing, election), or the will of man (free will to accept or reject Christ)?
*
QUOTE(azriqii @ Oct 5 2019, 10:50 AM)
God predestined you to repent. Justification by faith alone doesn't contradict with a person's repentent. Faith is the gift of God. If God don't elect you, you just can't believe.
*
.
Discussion on how God works in predestining people, whether the elect or non-elect, may be the profane and idle babblings of those who want to like God. It's like them wondering and discussing about how God created and controlled the universe and time which is mostly beyond human comprehension.
...... Christians are to just do their part while God is doing or has done His part wrt the salvation of fallen Man. Why discuss about the things of God which we presently cannot comprehend.?

Always Keep the Faith

.......

.

2THESS.2:1-12 (NKJV) = The Great Apostasy

2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Oct 13 2019, 11:00 PM
SUSazriqii
post Oct 5 2019, 01:17 PM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Oct 5 2019, 12:12 PM)
.
Discussion on how God works in predestining people, whether the elect or non-elect, may be the profane and idle babblings of those who want to like God. It's like them wondering and discussing about how God created and controlled the universe and time which is mostly beyond human comprehension.
...... Christians are to just do their part while God is doing or has done His part wrt the salvation of fallen Man. Why discuss about the things of God which we presently cannot comprehend.?

Keep the Faith

.......

.

2THESS.2:1-12 (NKJV) = The Great Apostasy

2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
*
Your question is why discuss? Why not? Discussion lead to the truth. Calvin did not invent calvinisms it is the truth revealed in the bible.
mubtadi
post Oct 5 2019, 04:21 PM

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Hello my christian brethren, peace be upon those who follow the truth. I am preparing a research on the prescription of the heaven in the scriptures. May I post a question here regarding the prescription of heaven in the bible.

Thanks

SUSlurkingaround
post Oct 5 2019, 06:03 PM

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QUOTE(azriqii @ Oct 5 2019, 01:17 PM)
Your question is why discuss? Why not? Discussion lead to the truth. Calvin did not invent calvinisms it is the truth revealed in the bible.
*
Like I already said, discussions about how God does things that is beyond human comprehension may be profane and idle babblings that do not lead to truth but to confusion and needless arguments, eg discussions about predestination and the inner workings of God's Omnipotence, Omnipresence and Omniscience.
.

In the Story of Job, circa 2000BC, at JOB.38-41 God castigated Job for demanding an answer from Him as to why he was made to suffer (= JOB.31) since he thought he had done no wrong/sins. At JOB.42, Job immediately repented after God personally spoke to him, even though he did not get the appropriate answer from God as to why he was made to suffer = he kept the faith and was doubly blessed by God in the end.
....... In comparison, his wife probably lost faith - JOB.2:9.

So, Job should not have opened his mouth and demanded an answer from God.

Only about 400 years later, was it revealed through Moses Law at EXODUS.20:5 that Job had ignorantly sinned against God by making a profane offering to God to "insure" his prosperity against his sons' likely future sins/evil-deeds(= JOB.1:5) which he greatly feared of losing(= JOB.3:25), ie he had worried for nothing because a son's sins would not have befallen on the father. It was the other way round, ie only a father's sins would befall on the sons, down to the 4th generation. Job was ignorant of this law of God since it had yet to be revealed or given by God.

Similarly, some Gentile Christians are ignorant of God's non-burdensome laws/commandments and they may end up like Job's wife, ie suffer for their ignorant sins/law-breaking and then lose faith and salvation, eg go and consult satanic or demonic tarot cards, fortune tellers, palm-readers, horoscope, psychics, witches/sorcerers, shamans, ouija-boards, dream-catchers, etc = breaking God's law/commandment at DEUT.18:9-14.

Remember, Jewish Christians are very different from Gentile Christians. At conversion, most Gentile Christian adults have led lawless lives from childhood = they may not even not know all the Ten Commandments at EXODUS.20:1-17. So, Gentile Christians are more prone to breaking the non-burdensome parts of God's Law ignorantly than Jewish Christian adults who mostly have led law-abiding lives from childhood wrt the 613 laws/commandments in Moses Law.
....... Law-abiding people have nothing to fear from God or the police/government. .......


2TIMOTHY.3:14-17 = . 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
SUSazriqii
post Oct 5 2019, 07:09 PM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Oct 5 2019, 06:03 PM)
Like I already said, discussions about how God does things that is beyond human comprehension may be profane and idle babblings that do not lead to truth but to confusion and needless arguments, eg discussions about predestination and the inner workings of God's Omnipotence, Omnipresence and Omniscience.
.

In the Story of Job, circa 2000BC, at JOB.38-41 God castigated Job for demanding an answer from Him as to why he was made to suffer (= JOB.31) since he thought he had done no wrong/sins. At JOB.42, Job immediately repented after God personally spoke to him, even though he did not get the appropriate answer from God as to why he was made to suffer = he kept the faith and was doubly blessed by God in the end.
....... In comparison, his wife probably lost faith - JOB.2:9.

So, Job should not have opened his mouth and demanded an answer from God.

Only about 400 years later, was it revealed through Moses Law at EXODUS.20:5 that Job had ignorantly sinned against God by making a profane offering to God to "insure" his prosperity against his sons' likely future sins/evil-deeds(= JOB.1:5) which he greatly feared of losing(= JOB.3:25), ie he had worried for nothing because a son's sins would not have befallen on the father. It was  the other way round, ie only a father's sins would befall on the sons, down to the 4th generation. Job was ignorant of this law of God since it had yet to be revealed or given by God.

Similarly, some Gentile Christians are ignorant of God's non-burdensome laws/commandments and they may end up like Job's wife, ie suffer for their ignorant sins/law-breaking and then lose faith and salvation, eg go and consult satanic or demonic tarot cards, fortune tellers, palm-readers, horoscope, psychics, witches/sorcerers, shamans, ouija-boards, dream-catchers, etc = breaking God's law/commandment at DEUT.18:9-14.

Remember, Jewish Christians are very different from Gentile Christians. At conversion, most Gentile Christian adults have led lawless lives from childhood = they may not even not know all the Ten Commandments at EXODUS.20:1-17. So, Gentile Christians are more prone to breaking the non-burdensome parts of God's Law ignorantly than Jewish Christian adults who mostly have led law-abiding lives from childhood wrt the 613 laws/commandments in Moses Law.
....... Law-abiding people have nothing to fear from God or the police/government. .......


2TIMOTHY.3:14-17 = . 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
*
Dude, are you roman Catholic? Calvin just represent the truth, he didn't add or minus anything new. It's not ok to be ignorant. God wanted you to know something that's why He gave you the bible.
SUSlurkingaround
post Oct 6 2019, 01:10 AM

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QUOTE(azriqii @ Oct 5 2019, 10:50 AM)
God predestined you to repent. Justification by faith alone doesn't contradict with a person's repentent. Faith is the gift of God. If God don't elect you, you just can't believe.
*
QUOTE(azriqii @ Oct 5 2019, 07:09 PM)
Dude, are you roman Catholic? Calvin just represent the truth, he didn't add or minus anything new. It's not ok to be ignorant. God wanted you to know something that's why He gave you the bible.
*
.
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https://www.learnreligions.com/calvinism-vs...inianism-700526
QUOTE
Compare Beliefs of Calvinism Vs. Arminianism

God's Sovereignty

The sovereignty of God is the belief that God is in complete control over everything that happens in the universe. His rule is supreme, and his will is the final cause of all things.

Calvinism: In Calvinist thinking, God's sovereignty is unconditional, unlimited, and absolute. All things are predetermined by the good pleasure of God's will. God foreknew because of his own planning.

Arminianism: To the Arminian, God is sovereign, but has limited his control in correspondence with man's freedom and response. God's decrees are associated with his foreknowledge of man's response.
.

Man's Depravity

Calvinist believe in the total depravity of man while Arminians hold to an idea dubbed "partial depravity."

Calvinism: Because of the Fall, man is totally depraved and dead in his sin. Man is unable to save himself and, therefore, God must initiate salvation.

Arminianism: Because of the Fall, man has inherited a corrupted, depraved nature. Through "prevenient grace," God removed the guilt of Adam's sin. Prevenient grace is defined as the preparatory work of the Holy Spirit, given to all, enabling a person to respond to God's call to salvation.
.

Election

Election refers to the concept of how people are chosen for salvation. Calvinists believe election is unconditional, while Arminians believe election is conditional.

Calvinism: Before the foundation of the world, God unconditionally chose (or "elected") some to be saved. Election has nothing to do with man's future response. The elect are chosen by God.

Arminianism: Election is based on God's foreknowledge of those who would believe in him through faith. In other words, God elected those who would choose him of their own free will. Conditional election is based on man's response to God's offer of salvation.
.

Grace

God's grace has to do with his call to salvation. Calvinism says God’s grace is irresistible, while Arminianism argues that it can be resisted.

Calvinism: While God extends his common grace to all humankind, it is not sufficient to save anyone. Only God's irresistible grace can draw the elect to salvation and make a person willing to respond. This grace cannot be obstructed or resisted.

Arminianism: Through the preparatory (prevenient) grace given to all by the Holy Spirit, man is able to cooperate with God and respond in faith to salvation. Through prevenient grace, God removed the effects of Adam's sin. Because of "free will" men are also able to resist God's grace.

The above opposing doctrines of Calvinism vs Arminianism are just human speculations about God's mind/thinking, intentions and secrets. No one can know/comprehend them until God actually reveals them Himself to humans which He has yet to do. Maybe, after Judgment Day.

It's like nobody can know about what you are thinking, your real intentions and hidden secrets until you reveal them yourself to others.

This is similar to the endless and needless debate between Christians vs atheists, Buddhists, Jews and Muslims, about where they will be going after they die, ie will it be back to dust/atoms, reincarnation, heaven or hell.? While still alive on earth, no one can know the true answer until he/she actually dies. So, it's pointless for Christians to argue with non-Christians about the afterlife.


SUSazriqii
post Oct 6 2019, 10:26 AM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Oct 6 2019, 01:10 AM)
.
.
https://www.learnreligions.com/calvinism-vs...inianism-700526

The above opposing doctrines of Calvinism vs Arminianism are just human speculations about God's mind/thinking, intentions and secrets. No one can know/comprehend them until God actually  reveals them Himself to humans which He has yet to do. Maybe, after Judgment Day.

It's like nobody can know about what you are thinking, your real intentions and hidden secrets until you reveal them yourself to others.

This is similar to the endless and needless debate between Christians vs atheists, Buddhists, Jews and Muslims, about where they will be going after they die, ie will it be back to dust/atoms, reincarnation,  heaven or hell.? While still alive on earth, no one can know the true answer until he/she actually dies. So, it's pointless for Christians to argue with non-Christians about the afterlife.

*
You are so unclear about scripture. I stop here, go debate (or waste time) with others.
SUSlurkingaround
post Oct 6 2019, 01:54 PM

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QUOTE(azriqii @ Oct 6 2019, 10:26 AM)
You are so unclear about scripture. ....
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DEUT.29:29 (NKJV) = 29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.
.

JOB.38:1-11 = 38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:

2 “Who is this who darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3 Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
9 When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;
10 When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors;
11 When I said,
‘This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!’

_______ _______

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin

John Calvin, his Church, and politicians ruled the city-state of Geneva in Switzerland during the Protestant Reformation in the mid-1500s. They executed political opponents and Christian "heretics"(= eg Michael Servetus). John Calvin was no different from the "heretical" and murderous/persecutorial Catholic Popes and Martin Luther(= his Lutheran Church also executed Anabaptist and Mennonite "heretics" and political opponents in Germany).
....... So, from his works/fruits, John Calvin was also a false prophet/pastor/preacher, just like the Pope and Luther - MATTHEW.7:15-23, GAL.5:19-21, REV.17.
....... Widespread illiteracy among the masses and the lack of printed Bibles in the hands of ordinary Christians allowed these power-crazy false prophets/pastors/preachers the opportunity to run riot - "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."(HOSEA.4:6)

IOW, the Protestant Reformation was actually a political movement against the political power of the Catholic Popes in Europe. Religion was used as an excuse for this political revolt. At one time, the Pope was even more powerful than the Holy Roman Emperor since the Pope could hold sway over all the Christian citizens in Europe wrt his papal power for excommunication, execution and condemnation to hell as Christian heretics, eg the Galileo trials/Inquisition.

It was the intolerant/persecutorial, murderous and war-mongering false prophets/pastors/preachers like the Catholic Popes, Protestant English Kings(= head of the Anglican Church), John Calvin and Martin Luther who prompted the mostly Protestant Founding Fathers of America to institute the separation of Church and State in the 1776 US Constitution, ie wrt political power.
....... Most of the American settlers in the 17th century were Protestant refugees who had escaped religious persecution and wars in Europe, eg the Puritans on the Mayflower ship escaped religious persecution by the English Kings and Anglican Church.

After the great ministry of the apostles of Christ in the New Testament, why did God allow the Church to descend to such a horrible state as above.? = a mystery of God.

SUSlurkingaround
post Oct 6 2019, 02:15 PM

Rule of Law
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Senior Member
7,066 posts

Joined: Sep 2019
From: South Klang Valley suburb




QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 26 2019, 03:45 PM)
Welcome Fellow Christians.

We are here to fellowship, to reach out, to encourage, to strengthen one another and to be a Witness unto this lost world of the goodness and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
FAQ
Few simple RULES to follow in our fellowship thread.

1. No flaming/troll post please. Let's keep this fellowship thread clean, positive and encouraging, as the purpose is more for believers of Christ.
2. Do not argue about other religions please. People of other Faith are welcome to ask and enquire genuine questions or out of curiosity about Christianity.
3. What's discussed in here, stays in here.
4. Do not spark an argument or to cause excessive argument, both are not allowed, your post will be deleted and report to Admin of Forum


Previous Threads
V14
V14
v13
v13
v12
v12
V11
https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/3855898
V10
https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/3599570
V09
https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/3485130
V08
https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/3393815
V07
https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopic=3197598
V06
https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?act=ST&f...&t=2621686&st=0
V05
http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/1758395
V04
http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/801729
Good links to share:
http://www.opensong.org/
http://www.guitar4christ.com
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/
a database of chords and lyrics for christian songs.

GodTV
http://www.god.tv/

Good TV
http://www.goodtv.tv/
Online Bibles!
English Bible (with multi lingual): http://www.biblegateway.com/

Indonesian/Malay Bible: http://alkitab.otak.info/

Arabic Bible: http://www.arabicbible.com/bible/doc_bible.htm

Dear Christians, please do let us know about u, like denominations, which church u r from and where is ur church located. Oh, beside that, do let us know what position are u holding in ur church, as in.. hmm pianist ? choral singer ? or even Pastor.
LYN Christ Followers

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

Christian BookShop
1) Salvation Bookstore - PJ SS2, Summit USJ
2) Glad Sound - PJ SS2, Taipan USJ 10, One Utama
3) Evangel - PJ SS2
4) MPH Bookstore
5) Canaanland Sdn Bhd: - http://www.canaanland.com.my/index.php?opt...&id=6&Itemid=12
*
.
.

QUOTE(mubtadi @ Oct 5 2019, 04:21 PM)
Hello my christian brethren, peace be upon those who follow the truth. I am preparing a research on the prescription of the heaven in the scriptures. May I post a question here regarding the prescription of heaven in the bible.

Thanks
*
@ mubtadi ....... The above links fyi.

SUSazriqii
post Oct 6 2019, 02:22 PM

Getting Started
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Junior Member
170 posts

Joined: Jun 2019
QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Oct 6 2019, 01:54 PM)
DEUT.29:29 (NKJV) = 29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.
.

JOB.38:1-11 = 38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:

2  “Who is this who darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3  Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.

4  “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5  Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6  To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7  When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8  “Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
9  When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;
10  When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors;
11  When I said,
‘This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!’

_______ _______

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin

John Calvin, his Church, and politicians ruled the city-state of Geneva in Switzerland during the Protestant Reformation in the mid-1500s. They executed political opponents and Christian "heretics"(= eg Michael Servetus). John Calvin was no different from the "heretical" and murderous/persecutorial Catholic Popes and Martin Luther(= his Lutheran Church also executed Anabaptist and Mennonite "heretics" and political opponents in Germany).
....... So, from his works/fruits, John Calvin was also a false prophet/pastor/preacher, just like the Pope and Luther - MATTHEW.7:15-23, GAL.5:19-21, REV.17.
....... Widespread illiteracy among the masses and the lack of printed Bibles in the hands of ordinary Christians allowed these power-crazy false prophets/pastors/preachers the opportunity to run riot - "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."(HOSEA.4:6)

IOW, the Protestant Reformation was actually a political movement against the political power of the Catholic Popes in Europe. Religion was used as an excuse for this political revolt. At one time, the Pope was even more powerful than the Holy Roman Emperor since the Pope could hold sway over all the Christian citizens in Europe wrt his papal power for excommunication, execution and condemnation to hell as Christian heretics, eg the Galileo trials/Inquisition.

It was the  intolerant/persecutorial, murderous and war-mongering false prophets/pastors/preachers like the Catholic Popes, Protestant English Kings(= head of the Anglican Church), John Calvin and Martin Luther who prompted the mostly Protestant Founding Fathers of America to institute the separation of Church and State in the 1776 US Constitution, ie wrt political power.
....... Most of the American settlers in the 17th century were Protestant refugees who had escaped religious persecution and wars in Europe, eg the Puritans on the Mayflower ship escaped religious persecution by the English Kings and Anglican Church.

After the great ministry of the apostles of Christ in the New Testament, why did God allow the Church to descend to such a horrible state as above.? = a mystery of God.

*
I didn't deny how God is working in a myterios way but I subscribe to Paul's justification by faith, I'm not an arminian. I found your quote of scripture or your answer didn't answer within the discussion. Try to understand what are we discussing first, going broad is self syok
yaokb
post Oct 7 2019, 09:32 AM

Getting Started
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Junior Member
225 posts

Joined: Jan 2009
Just a heads up.

poster mubtadi PM and requested

"Hello, I am looking for a person who can assist me in studying bible. May you help me in discussing certain aspect of bible. I need a reference and correspondence for my study

Thanks"

You guys may receive similar requests

TSunknown warrior
post Oct 7 2019, 11:17 AM

/k/ Legend
*******
Senior Member
6,240 posts

Joined: Jul 2005
QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Oct 3 2019, 10:41 AM)
ROMANS.14:1-13 (NKJV) = The Law of Liberty

14 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written:

“As I live, says the Lord,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.
_______ _______

Where does the New Testament state that Christians must tithe 10% to their Church.?

As per ACTS.15:19-29 and GALATIANS.5:1-15, Gentile Christians have been liberated from God's burdensome laws. So, wrt burdensome or non-essential laws, Gentile Christians are at liberty to self-decide to obey or not to obey them, eg circumcision, kosher/clean foods, Sabbath Sunday, etc. .......


In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Love.
.
So, you do admit at least that the passage applied to supporting fellow believers and not to any stranger or Tom, Dikk and Harry, especially the enemies of believers.

Notice that it was the righteous and saved sheep who were asking Jesus Christ those questions. So, it would be odd that they did not know that He was referring to them as those being fed, given drink, shelter, clothed, visited in prison and when sick.
...... At MATTHEW.24 & 25, Jesus was speaking to His apostles/disciples. So, I believe He was referring to His apostles/disciples when He said "My brethren", as alluded by .......

MATTHEW.10:9-15 = . 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.

11 “Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. 12 And when you go into a household, greet it. 13 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!
*
The Law of liberty has nothing to do with deciding the portion of tithe. Read the whole context, it has to do with judgmental attitude towards another brother where he seem to be weak or thought to have fallen from grace in comparison to the one who judge him

There you go again, having an erroneous idea of tithing, I think I've said this before tithing's primary reason is not to the Church or Pastors, has nothing to do with burdensome. That is a very carnal understanding. Go research more and read more on why we tithe.

As for where is the scripture in the New Testament that support on Tithing, I've just supplied to you in the previous post. Something to do with the priest Melchizedek and Christ Jesus himself did mention to practice tithing.

As for what I've shared on giving hospitality towards stranger, nobody is suggesting that you show it to people like ISIS or murderers. It is suggested that you showed to strangers who are in need, who in dire straits or in helplessness. Why? Because as what James suggested, faith without work is dead...they need help and you would never know if the person is a believer or not. And it does not matter. You don't do it for the sake that they are believers but because it's your new creation nature, we are meant to be a channel for God's love to touch lives.

That is why the sheeps was never conscious of who they help when asked by the Great Judge on Judgment day. That is why the scripture verses were linked in my sharing.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 7 2019, 12:23 PM
SUSlurkingaround
post Oct 7 2019, 11:48 AM

Rule of Law
*******
Senior Member
7,066 posts

Joined: Sep 2019
From: South Klang Valley suburb




QUOTE(azriqii @ Oct 5 2019, 10:50 AM)
God predestined you to repent. Justification by faith alone doesn't contradict with a person's repentent. Faith is the gift of God. If God don't elect you, you just can't believe.
*
QUOTE(azriqii @ Oct 6 2019, 02:22 PM)
I didn't deny how God is working in a myterios way but I subscribe to Paul's justification by faith, I'm not an arminian. I found your quote of scripture or your answer didn't answer within the discussion. Try to understand what are we discussing first, going broad is self syok
*
.
You were tying repentance and justification by faith with predestination, which is a Calvinist doctrine. That may be profane and idle babblings about the mysteries and secrets of God which are beyond human comprehension = no point delving about Calvin's predestination.

Cunningly, the Calvinists claim that God has predestined only them as the elect, while most other non-Calvinists have been predestined to be the non-elect, especially if they do not submit to Calvinist doctrines. To me, the Calvinists predestination doctrine is being presumptious of God = a grave sin. Only God can be the Judge wrt salvation.

_______ _______

If you read Martin Luther's biographies, you will come across how he willfully committed sins/law-breaking just to clear his own Satanic doubts about his own salvation through justification by faith. Hence, he and his German cohorts enjoyed drinking beer/alcohol, making revelry/partying and coarse jokes. He died of a stroke at age 62, probably from too much drinking.
....... It can be said that Martin Luther is the father of the false Hyper-Grace (= license-to-sin) doctrine. .......

QUOTE
Whenever the devil pesters you with these thoughts, at once seek out the company of men, drink more, joke and jest, or engage in some other form of merriment. Sometimes it is necessary to drink a little more, play, jest, or even commit some sin in defiance and contempt of the devil in order not to give him an opportunity to make us scrupulous about trifles. We shall be overcome if we worry too much about falling into some sin.

Accordingly if the devil should say, “do not drink” you should reply to him “on this very account, because you forbid it, I shall drink, and what is more, I shall drink a generous amount.” Thus one must always do the opposite of that which Satan prohibits. What do you think is my reason for drinking wine undiluted, talking freely, and eating more often if it is not to torment and vex the devil who made up his mind to torment and vex me? Would that I could commit some token sin simply for the sake of mocking the devil, so that he might understand that I acknowledge no sin and am conscious of no sin. When the devil attacks and torments us we must completely set aside the whole Decalogue. When the devil throws our sins up to us and declares that we deserve death and hell, we ought to speak thus: ‘I admit that I deserve death and hell. What of it? Does this mean that I shall be sentenced to eternal damnation? By no means. For I know One who suffered and made satisfaction in my behalf. His name is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Where he is, there I shall also be”

https://stevevaughan10.com/2012/07/24/get-d...her-told-me-so/ - GET DRUNK – Martin Luther told me so - 24 July 2012
QUOTE

“Whoever drinks beer, he is quick to sleep; whoever sleeps long, does not sin; whoever does not sin, enters Heaven! Thus, let us drink beer!” ― Martin Luther

GAL.5:19-21 (NKJV) = 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
SUSazriqii
post Oct 7 2019, 01:22 PM

Getting Started
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Junior Member
170 posts

Joined: Jun 2019
QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Oct 7 2019, 11:48 AM)
.
You were tying repentance and justification by faith with predestination, which is a Calvinist doctrine. That may be profane and idle babblings about the mysteries and secrets of God which are beyond human comprehension = no point delving about Calvin's predestination.

Cunningly, the Calvinists claim that God has predestined only them as the elect, while most other non-Calvinists have been predestined to be the non-elect, especially if they do not submit to Calvinist doctrines. To me, the Calvinists predestination doctrine is being presumptious of God = a grave sin. Only God can be the Judge wrt salvation.

_______ _______

If you read Martin Luther's biographies, you will come across how he willfully committed sins/law-breaking just to clear his own Satanic doubts about his own salvation through justification by faith. Hence, he and his German cohorts enjoyed drinking beer/alcohol, making revelry/partying and coarse jokes. He died of a stroke at age 62, probably from too much drinking.
....... It can be said that Martin Luther is the father of the false Hyper-Grace (= license-to-sin) doctrine. .......


https://stevevaughan10.com/2012/07/24/get-d...her-told-me-so/ -  GET DRUNK – Martin Luther told me so - 24 July 2012

GAL.5:19-21 (NKJV) = 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
*
Hmm, I think you misunderstood what's mean to be a calvinist. I don't anti calvinsms because I because justification by faith, which is not an invention of Calvin but a truth revealed in the bible. Stop saying God works in a mysterious way, I never deny that. Calvinist believe the saved one is predestined before the foundation of the world, so if you're a Christian you should thanks God for He has elected you, that should be your attitude. We don't judge those who does not believe in Christ, but preach the good news to them. If a person die a Christian I expect to see him/her in heaven and acknowledge the fact that he/she is predestined by God to be saved, if a person die as a non Christian, he had heard the gospel and rejected Chris, we perceived he's not the son of God. Got it?

And I think you're quoting the wrong verse regarding prestination. Luther was saved despite his failure in reaching God standard. That's the reason why Christ came actually. Christian still sin, but thrive to overcome by the power of Christ. Sinning does not bring you to hell, unbelieve does. Sinning unrepentantly cause you to lose fellowship and got discipline from the Father. There are stage of maturity in faith.

This post has been edited by azriqii: Oct 7 2019, 01:26 PM

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