QUOTE(yeeck @ Oct 9 2019, 10:36 AM)
There's a Catholic group, you can find your favor there. Ps: I'm not even interested to discuss there coz I'm not a roman Catholic.LYN Christian Fellowship Thread Ver 15
LYN Christian Fellowship Thread Ver 15
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Oct 9 2019, 12:58 PM
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Oct 9 2019, 12:58 PM
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Oct 9 2019, 01:02 PM
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#143
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QUOTE(yeeck @ Oct 9 2019, 12:18 PM) So that you know, you cannot come to God via God's OT commandment.Galatians 2:16 know that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law, because by works of the Law no one will be justified. Galatians 3:25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. |
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Oct 9 2019, 01:04 PM
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#144
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QUOTE(yeeck @ Oct 9 2019, 12:45 PM) And another: Because Only Jesus Christ alone qualify to fulfill it."Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” It's weird that opponent of this always do not understand this. |
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Oct 9 2019, 01:06 PM
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Oct 9 2019, 01:08 PM
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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Oct 9 2019, 01:04 PM) Because Only Jesus Christ alone qualify to fulfill it. True, no one denies only Christ can fulfill all. But note well, certain things not fulfilled yet such as His Second Coming. Heaven and earth has not passed away yet.It's weird that opponent of this always do not understand this. |
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Oct 9 2019, 01:11 PM
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#147
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QUOTE(yeeck @ Oct 9 2019, 01:08 PM) True, no one denies only Christ can fulfill all. But note well, certain things not fulfilled yet such as His Second Coming. Heaven and earth has not passed away yet. but the law in effect has been fulfilled by Christ and it's finished.The cross is the evidence. His 2nd coming does not mean the law is still in effect for believers. because if it still is, Christ died for nothing. |
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Oct 9 2019, 01:55 PM
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#148
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7,066 posts Joined: Sep 2019 From: South Klang Valley suburb |
QUOTE(KLthinker91 @ Oct 9 2019, 06:52 AM) I can't believe I'm doing this, but I have to say something against this "anti-life insurance" business. .Life insurance is not "fearing death", or "depending on someone else besides Jesus to save you", it is merely a financial arrangement to take care of your family's earthly needs when you're gone. And your family is also an extension of the Church, since they are probably fellow Christians. Taking care of your family therefore is also Christian work. In fact I would say there are plenty of verses in the Bible which prove it is one of the most important responsibilities of Christians. But I dislike quoting verses, and I'm sure many others here can provide them. Even if they are non-Christians, the societal norm is that you have a responsibility to take care of them. By doing so, you demonstrate a good testimony to non-Christians that a Christian is a person of good character and a good member of society, and that is also a form of missionary work. (There is also Biblical support for this.) Don't think that Jesus has no idea about finance, or that he doesn't care about family. We are commanded to be fruitful in both areas, to spend our money on preaching the Word (growing the Church externally, through missionary work), to take care of current Church members and to multiply (growing the Church internally). Money is needed in this world to further the work of the Church. It is not to be eschewed and avoided. If we don't generate it, it has to come from somewhere. No, we cannot only depend on "faith" to take care of the financial needs. That kind of faith is testing God. God never intended us to sit back, hold out our hands, ask for money to drop from the sky and call that a "miraculous blessing". We are supposed to do our best and trust God to provide by turning our best efforts into something beneficial. THAT is practical application of faith. Life insurance provides your wife and children with the resources they need to grow up to be useful members of the Church. If you don't provide, someone else has to. Probably the Church itself, since it is one of the Church's responsibilities to care for its members. So what have you really accomplished by avoiding life insurance, other than to transfer your burden to other Christians? This isn't prosperity gospel, BTW. Prosperity gospel focuses on enriching yourself. This is about being good stewards of the resources which belongs to God, which is not just the Church offerings but also ourselves, our money, time, and effort. Nor am I promoting any investment-linked insurance products. Investment-linked products are generally very poor financial investments. . . QUOTE(KLthinker91 @ Oct 9 2019, 06:52 AM) I can't believe I'm doing this, but I have to say something against this "anti-life insurance" business. Taking care of the family's earthly needs, eg wife and kids, is normally not needed if a person dies at a ripe old age of > 70 years old, eg the kids are already working adults and the dead person has a sizable retirement fund like his EPF, personal savings, etc. Your idea for buying life insurance to take care of the family's earthly needs is for when the person dies young at the early age of < 40 years old, eg his kids are still schooling and the dead person has no sizable retirement fund like EPF, personal savings, etc.Life insurance is not "fearing death", or "depending on someone else besides Jesus to save you", it is merely a financial arrangement to take care of your family's earthly needs when you're gone. And your family is also an extension of the Church, since they are probably fellow Christians. Taking care of your family therefore is also Christian work. In fact I would say there are plenty of verses in the Bible which prove it is one of the most important responsibilities of Christians. But I dislike quoting verses, and I'm sure many others here can provide them. ....... So, your argument for buying life insurance is naught or baseless as it goes against trusting in God by keeping His Law/Word, in order to be blessed by God with a good and long life on earth. You either trust God or trust Mammon = you cannot trust both at the same time. MATTHEW.6:24-34 (NKJV) = You Cannot Serve God and Riches 24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. Do Not Worry 25 “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature? 28 “So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 “Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble. . . QUOTE Money is needed in this world to further the work of the Church. It is not to be eschewed and avoided. If we don't generate it, it has to come from somewhere. Tithing or financially supporting the work of the Church is normally not sourced from life insurance payouts when the insured Christians died young or early. It is normally sourced from the Christians' monthly income or salary. Tithing and buying life insurance are 2 different and separate matters. ....... Like I said before, Christians should tithe about 3% of their income(= not 10%) to support the work of their Church, so as not to be financially burdened since they also have to pay about 10% income tax to their governments or Caesar. Please go to Page 1 of this thread for more of my views about tithing. It is OK for Christians to buy government-mandated insurance like car insurance and health insurance(eg Obamacare). Btw, do you or your relatives sell insurance.? Some Christians go to Church mainly to sell insurance, real estate, cars or other investment products/services like Unit Trust Funds, Mutual Funds, MLM, Direct Selling(Amway, Cosway, Tupperware, Hai-O, etc). ....... Some Christians go to Church mainly to marry a good and faithful wife(= she won't commit adultery against him). Some Christians go to Church mainly to socialize. Etc. This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Oct 13 2019, 10:53 PM |
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Oct 9 2019, 01:59 PM
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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Oct 9 2019, 01:11 PM) but the law in effect has been fulfilled by Christ and it's finished. This is where you differ with the rest. For you all the Law has been fulfilled and finished, not differentiating between ceremonial and moral laws. I can go in further details how the Catholic position is more sensible and in harmony with Scripture, while yours is making verses of Scripture seems like contradicting one another.The cross is the evidence. His 2nd coming does not mean the law is still in effect for believers. because if it still is, Christ died for nothing. The Catholic truth is summed up in two simple and essential truths. 1) By our own selves, we indeed cannot fulfil the Commandments. Jesus Christ said,"Without Me, you can do nothing" (Jn 15:5). 2) With the grace of Jesus Christ, we CAN and must fulfil the Commandments. In the very same passage, "I am the vine, you are the branches, he that abideth in me and I in him, the same beareth much fruit." "In this is my Father glorified, that you bring forth very much fruit, and become my disciples (Jn 15:8). And St Paul says "I can do all these things in him who strengtheneth me" (Phil 4:13). When St Paul says "we are not under the Law", not as if we are allowed to break the Law like committing idolatry, adultery, etc, but by the grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ, we are empowered to fulfill the Law out of love, thus the Law is not a burden for those who love God, but is indeed a burden for those who rejects Christ and does not have the grace to obey the Law. "What then, shall we sin, because we are not under the Law, but under grace? God forbid!" Next, how to obtain grace? By prayer and the Sacraments instituted by Christ. Certainly the first grace is given without being asked, i.e. the grace to pray. If you say I expect all graces from Christ and need not lift a finger, you are greatly deceiving yourself, less we hear on our judgement from the mouth of Our Lord "Thou wicked and slothful servant!, ...and the unprofitable servant cast ye out into the exterior darkness!" (Mt 25: 26, 30). |
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Oct 9 2019, 02:03 PM
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#150
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QUOTE(yeeck @ Oct 9 2019, 01:59 PM) This is where you differ with the rest. For you all the Law has been fulfilled and finished, not differentiating between ceremonial and moral laws. I can go in further details how the Catholic position is more sensible and in harmony with Scripture, while yours is making verses of Scripture seems like contradicting one another. 2 Corinthians 3:7 (KJV)The Catholic truth is summed up in two simple and essential truths. 1) By our own selves, we indeed cannot fulfil the Commandments. Jesus Christ said,"Without Me, you can do nothing" (Jn 15:5). 2) With the grace of Jesus Christ, we CAN and must fulfil the Commandments. In the very same passage, "I am the vine, you are the branches, he that abideth in me and I in him, the same beareth much fruit." "In this is my Father glorified, that you bring forth very much fruit, and become my disciples (Jn 15:8). And St Paul says "I can do all these things in him who strengtheneth me" (Phil 4:13). When St Paul says "we are not under the Law", not as if we are allowed to break the Law like committing idolatry, adultery, etc, but by the grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ, we are empowered to fulfill the Law out of love, thus the Law is not a burden for those who love God, but is indeed a burden for those who rejects Christ and does not have the grace to obey the Law. "What then, shall we sin, because we are not under the Law, but under grace? God forbid!" Next, how to obtain grace? By prayer and the Sacraments instituted by Christ. Certainly the first grace is given without being asked, i.e. the grace to pray. If you say I expect all graces from Christ and need not lift a finger, you are greatly deceiving yourself, less we hear on our judgement from the mouth of Our Lord "Thou wicked and slothful servant!, ...and the unprofitable servant cast ye out into the exterior darkness!" (Mt 25: 26, 30). But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, The 10 commandments are written and engraved on stones, it's called a ministry of death. Try and explain that. What is this ministry of death? Death, define it. This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 9 2019, 02:04 PM |
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Oct 9 2019, 02:08 PM
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#151
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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Oct 9 2019, 01:55 PM) ....... So, your argument for buying life insurance is naught or baseless as it goes against trusting in God by keeping His Law/Word, in order to be blessed by God with a good and long life on earth. You either trust God or trust Mammon = you cannot trust both at the same time. That is not right. |
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Oct 9 2019, 02:11 PM
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170 posts Joined: Jun 2019 |
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Oct 9 2019, 02:17 PM
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3,577 posts Joined: Apr 2006 |
QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Oct 9 2019, 02:03 PM) 2 Corinthians 3:7 (KJV) Now if the ministration of death: Paul means the former law, which by giving them a greater knowledge, and not giving graces of itself to fulfil those precepts, occasioned death, was notwithstanding glorious, accompanied with miracles on Mount Sinai, and so that the Israelites, when Moses came down from the mountain, could not bear the glory of his countenance, which he was forced to cover with a veil, when he spoke to them. Shall not the ministration of the Spirit in the new law, which worketh our sanctification and salvation, abound with much greater glory?But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, The 10 commandments are written and engraved on stones, it's called a ministry of death. Try and explain that. What is this ministry of death? Death, define it. Don't forget the moral standard in the New Testament is higher than that of the Old. "You have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery: but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." (Mt 5:27). |
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Oct 9 2019, 02:18 PM
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QUOTE(yeeck @ Oct 9 2019, 12:58 PM) Of course, but saying just believe but ignore the commandments will not get you saved either. For even the demons believe. Saved is by the blood of Christ, by faith. What's is faith? Faith is the ability to believe, given by God. By faith we can fulfill the commandment because Christ fulfilled it already.You sounds like a non perfect Christian unless he's perfect in this life he's not saved. That's not justification by faith, that's perfectionism which we will never attain in this life, even great spiritual being still can sins. But since we are Christian we should be able to show good fruits or change in our life. But the good deeds does not justify us. It is because by faith through Christ we can have those good deeds aka fruits. |
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Oct 9 2019, 02:19 PM
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#155
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QUOTE(yeeck @ Oct 9 2019, 02:17 PM) Now if the ministration of death: Paul means the former law, which by giving them a greater knowledge, and not giving graces of itself to fulfil those precepts, occasioned death, was notwithstanding glorious, accompanied with miracles on Mount Sinai, and so that the Israelites, when Moses came down from the mountain, could not bear the glory of his countenance, which he was forced to cover with a veil, when he spoke to them. Shall not the ministration of the Spirit in the new law, which worketh our sanctification and salvation, abound with much greater glory? You're not answering my question. Don't forget the moral standard in the New Testament is higher than that of the Old. "You have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery: but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." (Mt 5:27). Why look to death? |
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Oct 9 2019, 02:27 PM
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QUOTE(azriqii @ Oct 9 2019, 02:18 PM) Saved is by the blood of Christ, by faith. What's is faith? Faith is the ability to believe, given by God. By faith we can fulfill the commandment because Christ fulfilled it already. Nope. Your position is not the same as UW's. UW is implying the 10 Commandments can be completely ignored because it comes under the OT.You sounds like a non perfect Christian unless he's perfect in this life he's not saved. That's not justification by faith, that's perfectionism which we will never attain in this life, even great spiritual being still can sins. But since we are Christian we should be able to show good fruits or change in our life. But the good deeds does not justify us. It is because by faith through Christ we can have those good deeds aka fruits. And no again to your second part. A Christian's life in this world is a constant warfare. I don't deny there will be times when one will fall, but with grace, prayer and the sacraments, one can rise again. "Fight the good fight" |
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Oct 9 2019, 02:28 PM
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3,577 posts Joined: Apr 2006 |
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Oct 9 2019, 02:31 PM
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QUOTE(azriqii @ Oct 9 2019, 02:11 PM) So you are a Baptist eh? |
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Oct 9 2019, 02:32 PM
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QUOTE(yeeck @ Oct 9 2019, 02:27 PM) Nope. Your position is not the same as UW's. UW is implying the 10 Commandments can be completely ignored because it comes under the OT. I'm not siding which one, I just state what it means by justification by faith, it is not like once you believed you can sin or still be saved, that should not be a Christian's attitude.And no again to your second part. A Christian's life in this world is a constant warfare. I don't deny there will be times when one will fall, but with grace, prayer and the sacraments, one can rise again. "Fight the good fight" A roman Catholic can also be a calvinists? As I know many rc didn't read their bible |
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Oct 9 2019, 02:33 PM
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