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> Insurance Talk V5!, Anything and everything about Insurance

lifebalance
post Jan 11 2019, 09:29 AM

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QUOTE(xk2 @ Jan 10 2019, 11:25 PM)
Hi guys, want to ask if my son was diagnostic got influence A, can we claim back the medical
Bill ? My son are not warded. Just visit kid specialist clinic.

We are having great eastern smart medic medical card.
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You may need to check with your respective insurance company on this whether it can be claimed or via ur agent for more info.

QUOTE(af_1993 @ Jan 11 2019, 06:24 AM)
Hi would love to get the forummers advice here
My mom has taken prudential flexi med for me for quite sometime. Do you think its a good idea to replace the insurance? Ive been checked that AIA A Life Link 2 is quite good. Prudential montly is Rm300+ while AIA is RM200+
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that depends on your existing coverage and what you're getting for moving into a new policy, what are you also losing out as well.

you'll need to be more detailed if you want to get proper insight or advise.
[Ancient]-XinG-
post Jan 11 2019, 10:12 AM

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QUOTE(Holocene @ Jan 9 2019, 07:07 PM)
The part about proving a point was directed towards lifebalance.

RM3,100 was what was quoted as you've shared. If etiqa's cost is more or less in line with Allianz they should be able to quote your cousin RM1,500 for the same protection and more or less similar sustainability of 28 years.

As you have past experience with NAV drop hence my reasoning for diversifying the RM1,600 into other investment vehicles. So in the situation when COI increases and the NAV decreases due to bad market, the question of if I should have a substantial amount of cash value in an ILP or do I pay as little premium as possible for the same protection and invest the rest with other financial products. Of course your earlier assessment of their performance and high sales charges is another thing you might consider.

I have to agree with you, the insurance industry is relatively sales driven and not so much on good sound advise but the good news is that BNM is in the midst of improving the professionalism of the agents in the industry. There are legit insurance agents but it really is your luck if you meet one.

As life progress and we somewhat have more to lose, our insurance needs will increase. As long as an agent is able to identify, assess and come up with a plan to manage the life risk I am sure he/she will be with you throughout your life. It's Life Insurance after all.

So in summary for your cousin's situation:

He can go with what the quotation he has with Etiqa or he could go with a lower premium and the same coverage (assuming Etiqa is able to quote that amount). Talk to the Etiqa agent to find out what his options are. 🤓

Best,
Jiansheng
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I still cant get it where you got the 1500 from. For an ILP, how can the agent simply change the figure when its ficed amount of premium? They have their own policy too. As far as I concern, I the total allocated premium is 100% into the fund commencing year 5. toward they end. I am with the agent that time together with my cousin. I see the computer, the excel sheet was programmed accordingly. There no way to input any other thing except Sum assured and rider in which CI in this case.

And the premium is fixed. Why is it the premium will increase when COI and NAV drop when in the duration of chosen sustainability years?

QUOTE(lifebalance @ Jan 9 2019, 07:26 PM)
I wouldn't know where he plucks the figure from as comparison.

taking a lifetime policy is not cheap I must admit that, to sustain such policy, you have to pay 2 - 3x of the amount you're paying for a regular investment link policy, i.e Traditional policy which is guaranteed.
I will usually take my time to explain this to my clients so they don't get conned by agents who tries to sell cheap premium to get the customer to sign up without understanding how investment link policy work.

And yes you're right, the insurance company basically slowly deplete your cash value slowly to offset the insurance charges overtime if the investment doesn't grow or the insurance charges increases higher than your premium contribution + investment growth.
I would blame lack of training to the agents back then compared to the present time in terms of financial training provided to educate the market. I believe more and more agents are getting better educated right now to meet the market demand of a good financial adviser.

Still there will be bad apples within the bunch because of greed, ego and etc.
It's really dependent on your luck and fate with a good agent. Can't blame anyone for that, life insurance is still a product bought based on relationship. Majority still buys from their own relative / friends even if they're new in the industry compared to someone who is knowledgeable but whom you may not know at all.

It's a matter of preference I suppose for different individual on who should be their insurance agent.
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My point is that is ILP the new trend nowadays? Because every insurance agency promoting ILP life no tomorrow. I have no objection on what the promote. What I don't like is that most of them don't bother to explain clearly on the T and C...

Is non-ILP have cash value too? Agent told me no. I doubt.

Honestly speaking, what do you think the offer from etiqa person?

QUOTE(vanitas @ Jan 9 2019, 10:57 PM)
I try to help you a bit...
- pure term life, guaranteed protection over 30 years, after that not guaranteed to renew if not mistaken.. but slightly expensive than ilp over long term, reason, you paid commissions to agent every years.. insurance company treat you as temporary customer..

- ilp, cheaper for long term, you paid agent few years good commissions, after that no more, insurance company would even give you some bonus after certain years in form of coverage or additional subscribe units on fund.. you can extend over 30 years as long as you got fund value inside, or depleted the fund value within 20 years, nothing is guaranteed despite what agent told you, you are investor, you should know..

- also the premium paid for ilp actually getting more expensive each year, not fixed, but the amount you paid for investment is fixed as long as got enough fund value to paid premium...
Suggest ask agent here send you a draft ilp for you to study.. free of charge..

I am not an agent, just trying to help you, in short, I would recommend ilp for a 30 years policy, but decision should up to your cousin, not you or me.
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Thanks for your reply. Indeed clearly without all those jargon.
Yea, as a investor its better to know the market. But as a investor too, when I look back all the fund sheet etc etc they have, they perform real bad. Not to mentioned the SC! And the scenario they gave in the table (I had the quotation and all tables) always projected at 6% for a bond fund, 8 to 10% for the EQ. But infact, in the charts, they wont even barely touch the % given. For bond fund, 1%SC, hovering around 3%, -1% its 2%. FD better than this?

But that doesn't matter as buying Insurance is for protection, not investment. Correct but when the full amount of premium gone in to the fund...... that's the other way round.
QUOTE(JIUHWEI @ Jan 10 2019, 02:20 PM)
Very comprehensive and incredibly concise!  thumbsup.gif
It's a waste you are not agent... We welcome you into our industry!
In fact, I will show this to my agents. Next time just explain like this in text messages and/or emails when asked for clarification.
In fact, I wish you will join my agency. <<< ikhlas from my heart.

To build on your explanation, ILP is flexible in the way that we can adjust the premium and time frame to stretch "just enough" to sustain through 30 years, or age 70, 80, 100...etc.
But of course, it is all projected based on past performance (usually around 6%/7% return, after accounting for deductions to cover the Cost of Insurance). Got Scenario 1 and Scenario 2 projection, which basically shows if market perform without drastic volatility (September 11, depression, etc), and the latter with terrible performance.

*actually ah, term insurance, agent get up to 40% commissions, compared to ILP at up to 25% commissions in the first year*

_____________________________
Bolded corrections:
(1) Cost of Insurance
(2) Premium
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QUOTE(JIUHWEI @ Jan 10 2019, 02:53 PM)
I think aside from what was brought up in the conversations on top,

I wanted to bring another area of concern for your consideration:
Health and insurability.

While a Term insurance is great to meet objectives for a very precise time frame, an ILP is what we call a Whole life, non-participating life insurance.
What it means is that it is designed to cover till age 100 (whole life), and your fund value does not participate in the profits and losses of the insurance company (non-participating).
From there, you can choose to have your ILP sustain for 30 years, to age 70, 80, 100...etc.
Of course, the longer we stretch the time frame, the higher your premiums because it needs to stretch over a longer period of time.

Now with that in mind, cost and premiums aside,
We cannot guarantee your cousin's health at the end of the 30-year Term.
In 30 years time, is your cousin still insurable?
If no then thank you very much for your business all these years.
If yes, then let's look at the premium in 30 years for the same amount of coverage (can generate now for your consideration).

Personally, I would give this more weight in my consideration.
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Do you actually tell that statement right into your customer face?
For the love of God.

This post has been edited by [Ancient]-XinG-: Jan 11 2019, 10:14 AM
vanitas
post Jan 11 2019, 11:23 AM

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QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ Jan 11 2019, 10:12 AM)
Thanks for your reply. Indeed clearly without all those jargon.
Yea, as a investor its better to know the market. But as a investor too, when I look back all the fund sheet etc etc they have, they perform real bad. Not to mentioned the SC! And the scenario they gave in the table (I had the quotation and all tables) always projected at 6% for a bond fund, 8 to 10% for the EQ. But infact, in the charts, they wont even barely touch the % given. For bond fund, 1%SC, hovering around 3%, -1% its 2%. FD better than this?

But that doesn't matter as buying Insurance is for protection, not investment. Correct but when the full amount of premium gone in to the fund...... that's the other way round.
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Term life - slightly higher insurance cost price in long term due to commissions and company policy for temporary customer, may have trouble on renewal if required.
Ilp - terrible sales charge, bad fund performance, not guaranteed to maintain premium paid.

Nothing is perfect, insurance company, agent, fund manager will always earn some money from you. You may ask your cousin opt for both (each at 250k life for e.g.), pick either one, or don't buy insurance / wait for new product.

Cheap insurance without forcing to take investment with high SC (diy invest should be under 2% SC), or can pick third party fund/etf, and no need go through agent (no commission paid at all), afaik doesn't exist yet, maybe in the future, or you can try to start it (just jk).

The reason I suggest ilp is for flexibility to adjust the coverage by attach or remove riders (not sure is this the correct term). And what I suggest may not be important feature to your cousin. What you said is completely makes sense, but nothing we can do, rather than pick term life (with some disadvantages I listed) or don't buy.

This post has been edited by vanitas: Jan 11 2019, 11:27 AM
lifebalance
post Jan 11 2019, 11:26 AM

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QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ Jan 11 2019, 10:12 AM)
My point is that is ILP the new trend nowadays? Because every insurance agency promoting ILP life no tomorrow. I have no objection on what the promote. What I don't like is that most of them don't bother to explain clearly on the T and C...

Is non-ILP have cash value too? Agent told me no. I doubt.

Honestly speaking, what do you think the offer from etiqa person?
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ILP is the trend nowadays as it's more profitable to the insurance company.

Regards to T&C, it depends on how transparent is the agent willingly to explain to you.

non-ILP a.k.a Traditional policy has cash value and they're normally Guaranteed dependent on the product feature compared to ILP which is non-Guaranteed.

Regards to the etiqa policy that was quoted, for the coverage and the amount of premium he's paying, I think it's a fair policy.
Simplified
post Jan 11 2019, 01:14 PM

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Ah ic.. Not too sure bout MRTA but i belief Life insurance has cash value account at your disposal.

life insurance is in case of death and TPD , lump sum money will pay to your nominee to plan the money., if you just bought MrTA, anything happens, the building is settled but how bout the daily expenses for family children car monthly commitment etc.


Seniors do comment if im right or wrong. XD

Just a newbie agent here
JIUHWEI
post Jan 11 2019, 01:57 PM

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QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ Jan 11 2019, 10:12 AM)

Do you actually tell that statement right into your customer face?
For the love of God.
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I do. Cuz customers need to hear that.
There's just no other way than to hit them with the truth.
Only then what we do is real and relevant.
cherroy
post Jan 11 2019, 05:11 PM

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QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ Jan 11 2019, 10:12 AM)
Is non-ILP have cash value too? Agent told me no. I doubt.
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There are still "Participant" insurance policy around whereby those bonuses/Cash calue are given based on insurance company investment performance as a whole annually, instead for the like ILP which you invested a particular fund (that may result in negative return if the particular fund is not doing well).

Just because agent promotes more on ILP (that may due to better commission rate or better profitability to insurance company or else reason, which is another story), it doesn't mean other insurance products are not available.

In fact, traditional/conventional participant policy may pose lesser risk than ILP. As worst to worst, annual bonus/cash payout out become less or zero, while in ILP, investment in unit trust can yield you a loss.
Mr.Weezy
post Jan 11 2019, 05:13 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Jan 11 2019, 05:11 PM)
There are still "Participant" insurance policy around whereby those bonuses/Cash calue are given based on insurance company investment performance as a whole annually, instead for the like ILP which you invested a particular fund (that may result in negative return if the particular fund is not doing well).

Just because agent promotes more on ILP (that may due to better commission rate or better profitability to insurance company or else reason, which is another story), it doesn't mean other insurance products are not available.

In fact, traditional/conventional participant policy may pose lesser risk than ILP. As worst to worst, annual bonus/cash payout out become less or zero, while in ILP, investment in unit trust can yield you a loss.
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Actually commission for ILP is lower than traditional

ILP is good because the protection benefit is much higher if I understood correctly
cherroy
post Jan 11 2019, 05:58 PM

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QUOTE(Mr.Weezy @ Jan 11 2019, 05:13 PM)
Actually commission for ILP is lower than traditional

ILP is good because the protection benefit is much higher if I understood correctly
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But at the same time, ILP annual premium is much higher than traditional/term/etc policy as it bundled the investment portion.
So end effect of commission may be the same (even though % wise is lower) or may be higher as well.

While unit trust portion, sales charges range from 1-5% may incur, as well as annual management fee that range from 0.5~1.5%.
So in return, when insurance company can make more money, they can give better benefit.

Insurance is not a charity organisation, when they give good protection, it just means there are area of profit they can make from it.


vanitas
post Jan 11 2019, 06:55 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Jan 11 2019, 05:58 PM)
But at the same time, ILP annual premium is much higher than traditional/term/etc policy as it bundled the investment portion.
So end effect of commission may be the same (even though % wise is lower) or may be higher as well.

While unit trust portion, sales charges range from 1-5% may incur, as well as annual management fee that range from 0.5~1.5%.
So in return, when insurance company can make more money, they can give better benefit.

Insurance is not a charity organisation, when they give good protection, it just means there are area of profit they can make from it.
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ilp annual premium much higher > true if you are young / just bought, not confirm when you are getting old, depends on how ilp fund performs and compare with which traditional products. Also afaik, ilp can adjust the riders / coverage which affect the premium paid when needed, traditional cannot. This flexibility is important point imo, as one may need different coverage at different point of life.

Sales charge and annual management fee > usual UT also got, you may argue insurance one got higher sales charge, which is true. So you are right, actually we paid more for seems better coverage. Annual management fee is comparable to UT in the market, so it shouldn't be a disadvantage, but should be known to the customer.

I am not an agent, altough I personally prefers ilp, but I am not against traditional, just to complete your argument.



shodan11
post Jan 13 2019, 09:51 AM

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QUOTE(Runshaw @ Jan 13 2019, 09:40 AM)
Thyroitoxicosis is not covered under all insurance policy across Malaysia?
Can’t find that illness in insurance policies.
Any insurance agents can clarify on this and any claim can be made through medical card

Urgent here and god bless you kind souls
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Not an agent/expert..just an underwriter.
If one has no pre-existing thyroid conditions such as thyrotoxicosis at the time of insurance application was made, of course it will be covered under medical card.
The scope of medical diseases/disorders are large and ever expanding..of course not all illnesses can be specified under insurance policy, with the exception of the widely recognized 36 critical diseases.

This post has been edited by shodan11: Jan 13 2019, 09:53 AM
shodan11
post Jan 13 2019, 10:28 AM

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QUOTE(Runshaw @ Jan 13 2019, 10:15 AM)
36 CI is not fixed is that what you mean?

Then those that have been drafted based on earlier agreement will lose out of the insurance companies decided to come up with new add-on disease coverage for new customers?
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Not saying this for sure. Currently most CI products/riders are based on 36 CIs. Hence if there's any add-on coverage, the customer might lose out on the additional benefits offered. I might need to check on this later, while we may wait for experienced agents to come and explain further.
However, by doing endorsements (adding up coverage/new benefits), the client will get to enjoy the new expanded CI benefits.
yklooi
post Jan 13 2019, 12:08 PM

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QUOTE(shodan11 @ Jan 13 2019, 10:28 AM)
Not saying this for sure. Currently most CI products/riders are based on 36 CIs. Hence if there's any add-on coverage, the customer might lose out on the additional benefits offered. I might need to check on this later, while we may wait for experienced agents to come and explain further.
However, by doing endorsements (adding up coverage/new benefits), the client will get to enjoy the new expanded CI benefits.
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just checking with you.......last week I had a brief encounter with my friend.....
he mentioned that his son was admitted to a hospital and had a surgery........
it was something like pancreas covering the liver (sort of like that).....
he mentioned that it was a "heaven born" (Chinese translation)...natural occurrence....
thus his insurance does not cover that "heaven born".....

is it true that natural occurance are not covered by insurances? notworthy.gif


shodan11
post Jan 13 2019, 12:36 PM

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QUOTE(yklooi @ Jan 13 2019, 12:08 PM)
just checking with you.......last week I had a brief encounter with my friend.....
he mentioned that his son was admitted to a hospital and had a surgery........
it was something like pancreas covering the liver (sort of like that).....
he mentioned that it was a "heaven born" (Chinese translation)...natural occurrence....
thus his insurance does not cover that "heaven born".....

is it true that natural occurance are not covered by insurances? notworthy.gif
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As an underwriter, my claims experience/knowledge is quite limited since underwriters only assess based on what medical evidence available/client declarations up front when they are applying for medical/life insurance.
Your friend might want to check his son's insurance policy booklet. However I believe any pre-existing condition/ corrective/elective surgery will not be covered under his medical insurance.
I'm also not familiar with this 'heaven-born' condition (exact medical condition) ie whether is it life threatening or not as well as the child age, policy details & what information was provided during insurance application.
Mr.Weezy
post Jan 13 2019, 01:08 PM

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QUOTE(yklooi @ Jan 13 2019, 12:08 PM)
just checking with you.......last week I had a brief encounter with my friend.....
he mentioned that his son was admitted to a hospital and had a surgery........
it was something like pancreas covering the liver (sort of like that).....
he mentioned that it was a "heaven born" (Chinese translation)...natural occurrence....
thus his insurance does not cover that "heaven born".....

is it true that natural occurance are not covered by insurances? notworthy.gif
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ya, those "tin sang" sickness are rarely covered by insurance
Holocene
post Jan 13 2019, 04:32 PM

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QUOTE(yklooi @ Jan 13 2019, 12:08 PM)
just checking with you.......last week I had a brief encounter with my friend.....
he mentioned that his son was admitted to a hospital and had a surgery........
it was something like pancreas covering the liver (sort of like that).....
he mentioned that it was a "heaven born" (Chinese translation)...natural occurrence....
thus his insurance does not cover that "heaven born".....

is it true that natural occurance are not covered by insurances? notworthy.gif
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Heaven born a.k.a congenital illnesses are not covered by insurance company unless it falls within a preborn insurance coverage list.

Best,
Jiansheng
lifebalance
post Jan 13 2019, 08:33 PM

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QUOTE(yklooi @ Jan 13 2019, 12:08 PM)
just checking with you.......last week I had a brief encounter with my friend.....
he mentioned that his son was admitted to a hospital and had a surgery........
it was something like pancreas covering the liver (sort of like that).....
he mentioned that it was a "heaven born" (Chinese translation)...natural occurrence....
thus his insurance does not cover that "heaven born".....

is it true that natural occurance are not covered by insurances? notworthy.gif
*
Pre existing is not covered in this case since its congenital unless your doctor diagnoses it differently
MUM
post Jan 13 2019, 08:49 PM

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QUOTE(lifebalance @ Jan 13 2019, 08:33 PM)
Pre existing is not covered in this case since its congenital unless your doctor diagnoses it differently
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hmm.gif just for discussion sake....
this pre existing thing......
does it has a duration before it is NOT classified as pre existing?

example....if his son is 1 yrs old, 15 yrs old or 25 yrs old....... does age matters? any different?

hmm.gif example....at what age will then, having cancer.....will not be classified as pre existing? thus covered by insurance?

This post has been edited by MUM: Jan 13 2019, 08:59 PM
lifebalance
post Jan 14 2019, 09:05 AM

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QUOTE(MUM @ Jan 13 2019, 08:49 PM)
hmm.gif just for discussion sake....
this pre existing thing......
does it has a duration before it is NOT classified as pre existing?

example....if his son is 1 yrs old, 15 yrs old or 25 yrs old....... does age matters? any different?

hmm.gif example....at what age will then, having cancer.....will not be classified as pre existing? thus covered by insurance?
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few factors will be considered on the severity of the ailment, complications, medication taken, any surgery, impact on day-to-day activity and etc.

There is no specified duration, I have my clients who had cancer 10 years ago who got medical card approved but excluded for any cancer.


aspartame
post Jan 14 2019, 09:18 AM

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QUOTE(MUM @ Jan 13 2019, 08:49 PM)
hmm.gif just for discussion sake....
this pre existing thing......
does it has a duration before it is NOT classified as pre existing?

example....if his son is 1 yrs old, 15 yrs old or 25 yrs old....... does age matters? any different?

hmm.gif example....at what age will then, having cancer.....will not be classified as pre existing? thus covered by insurance?
*
Congenital is different from preexisting, I think. Congenital is if you have it since birth, just that you might not have known about it. Cancer is not congenital. It is pre existing if you already have it and is looking for coverage. Laymen understanding...

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