Really? Of all the people, i'd never expected you to buy into the charismatic delusions.

Im not even talking about their sensual/antinomian/ watered down/prosperity/self preaching.

Just google bill johnson and grave sucking. The whole church is engaged is christian mysticism. Also involved in tarrot/destiny card reading.

I'm very close to calling this mob a cult.

They also have a school that apparently teaches people to perform signs and miracles. Where is the bible mandate in that?

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Oct 22 2018, 07:45 PM

Question : "Are all believers empowered to do the same thing ?" ~ Cochran7

Answer : No, not all believers are empowered to do the same thing. Only those who are born of the Spirit are allowed to do things in which the specific gift has been given to by our Heavenly Father.

This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: Oct 22 2018, 09:09 PM

To Vrese

Question : Please explain what you meant by a "fake miracle", when you wrote earlier "This is the part where human could lie or just a fake miracle...."

TQ.

Wokeh, i stand corrected. This guy is bad. Harry Potter bad.

Peace bro



edited : I just saw you say charismatic, so i wanted to share a little. I attended a charismatic church for decades. There were people speaking in 'tongues'. I couldn't understand what they were saying. Some were loud.

I also witnessed what they call 'Holy Laughter'. Folks would laugh & fall on the floor. Then the ushers would cover them with pieces of cloth to preserve their modesty. They would cont laughing for quite a while.

This next thing, i only heard about, but unfortunately was never around to witness it....'Slain in the Spirit'. Some folks would fly a few rows back suddenly.

But i do not see any of these things happening at my new church. None at all. & i've been attending since end 2010.



This post has been edited by Mr. WongSF: Oct 23 2018, 01:43 AM

Hi Vrese

Here is another angle presented by the evangelist Miho Valle. Verbatim:


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v21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;

Note: who calls Jesus Lord? Unbelievers?

How can unbelievers call Jesus Lord, if they don't believe in him? Do Atheists call him Lord? Try asking a devout Jew, see if they will call Jesus Lord. Only believers call him Lord.







"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" - Luke 6:46

for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then can they call on the One they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard?

And how can they hear without someone to preach? - Romans 10:13 - 14


Note: I grew up a Christian, a believer of Jesus Christ as Lord and savior. Yet, I've gotten into drugs, and an alcoholic for 30 years. Went into the Occult, and New Age beliefs.

I would drink, get drunk and preach Jesus as Lord and savior. I would preach in church and come home drink and smoke cigarettes. Yet I called Him Lord. If I had died, would I still go to heaven after calling him Lord?






" but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matt 7:21

Note: was I doing God's will, and expect "to enter into heaven?"





v22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?

Note: Do unbelievers prophesy in his name? Can an unbeliever cast out demons?




"Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.

14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.

15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded." - Acts 19:13 - 16




38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is on our part. - Mark 9:38-40

(Okay, i quoted you a parallel verse from Luke 9 in my previous post. It sounds the same.)







v23 "And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Note: How can, after doing miracles, and good works for Jesus, yet, he never knew you?

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die." - Ezekiel 18:24

(Okay, i quoted the above verse to you in my 2 previous postings as well.)

Note: This was the story of my life. Occult, New ager, alcoholic, drug user, etc. But, I called him Lord. I prayed. Read the bible. Went to church. Did the altar calls.

Accepted him as Lord and savior many of times (Rev 3:20).

But I did "All the abominations that the wicked man doeth", yet shall I stil go to heaven if I died, or hung myself (which I once attempted). Yet, I called him Lord. I would have to face God after I die.....


"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" - Hebrews 9:27


Note: Than I would see Jesus and say," Lord, Lord, It is I Miho. I preached in your name. Did many wonderful works in your name, let me into your kingdom that you made, and you died a horrible death for the punishment for the ugliness for sins". Come on Jesus, once saved always saved right? I cannot lose my salvation right Lord, everyone is preaching it, so it must be true, even though your word says otherwise, but hey, they seem sincere".

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Good nite

I know pentecostal theology very well, i go to a pentecostal church.

While there are many genuine christians there, i honestly think there are also plenty that are charlatans, charlatans that build their entire ministry on signs and wonders INSTEAD of the gospel and proper preaching of the word.

While i want to be graceful to my friends in this forum, but i cant help but wonder, can the 'gifts' stand biblical scrutiny?

People speak in tongues all the time, but in 1 corinthians 13-14 paul says, in the corporate worship, that there should be no more than 3 tongue speakers at a time, and if there is no one to interpret, NOBODY should speak in tongues.

Why does the giver of the gifts (Holy Spirit) contradict His own written word? I see people contradict the bible all the time.

In a world full of confusion and deception, the only safe place to go is the word of God. I know Im going to offend people in here, but nothing matters to me more than telling the truth.

Hi ThomasThai,

The Giver of the gifts (Holy Spirit) NEVER contradicts His own written Word.

It's the people, who are not yet born of the Spirit that contradicts the Holy Bible all the time.

These people never did the miracle but admitted to have done so for the sake of entry into heaven. My guess is this verse is talking about a prophecy about a group of people who will lie how they too believe the Lord authority when the judgement day come even though they never did. In order to get entry to heaven they willing to lie.

But what I know, trying to learn here..

Guys, the matter of the kingdom in the will of God is not so narrow as just miracles

Just in Matthew alone, minimum, Matt 5-7, 13, 24-25 are specially is about the kingdom.

For example, the records in 5-7 shows the reality of the kingdom of the heavens as the reality of the overcoming church life (Matt 16:17). It gives us a view of a certain kind of reality, the reality of the high standard of the divine life.

Lying just to be admitted into the Kingdom of Heaven, must be the most futile thing to do.

No worries, we are all learning.

Just that "fake miracle" never crossed my mind. Any miracle done in the Lord's name is worthy of praise, for that miracle was meant to heal.

As for a "fake miracle", I don't even want to go there. Pointless to begin with. But it's always good to be aware of the existence of such things but that would it, just for me. TQVM

sorry 2x post.

This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: Oct 23 2018, 01:57 PM

Hi Thomasthai,

The below is not written by me but I find it helps to clear a lot of confusion in regards of Holy Spirit(speaking in tongue).

If the reception of the Holy Spirit is so important for salvation, it should be clear when it happens. Its evidence is the speaking of tongues (Acts 2:4, 33). The incident of speaking in tongues at Pentecost formed the basis for confirming Cornelius’ reception of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44f): “Can any forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have (Acts 10:47; 11:15)?” That they had received the Holy Spirit was in no way a haphazard guess or even to be expected, seeing as they were Gentiles. All the circumcised believers who had come to Cornelius’ house were amazed because they heard them speak in tongues (Acts. 10:46), thus confirming that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also.

A careful reader would realize that the word ‘gift’ is singular. It coincides with that of the Pentecost: “…and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). The Greek word for it is “Dorea” (Acts 2:28, 8:20; 10:45; 11:17; Jn 4:10). It denotes “free gift”. “The Gift of the Holy Spirit” here refers to the Holy Spirit Himself. The “gift” is not charismatic (1 Cor 12:4) because Peter’s message emphasized Jesus’ ministry, deeds, death and resurrection (Acts 10:34ff). “Charisma” is another Greek word which means “gift” (1 Cor 12:7). It refers to the bestowments (spiritual gifts, which include tongues-speaking as well) of the Holy Spirit upon different individuals in the body of Christ (Rm 12:6; 1 Cor 1:7; 12:4, 9, 28, 30, 31; 1 Tim 4:14; 2 Tim 1:6; 1 Pet 4:10).

Some may argue that the ability to extol God is also likely evidence, since it happened in Cornelius’ case. This is highly unlikely in the context of the other passages in Acts that record the receiving of the Holy Spirit and also that it stands as very weak evidence for such a momentous occasion. It is more likely that the Gentile listeners extolled God as a way of acknowledging and enjoying Peter’s preaching. In defending himself when he returned to Jerusalem, Peter explained his association, together with six brethren, with the Gentiles as sanctioned by the same gift – the Holy Spirit evidenced by tongues – bestowed upon them (Acts 11:17).

At Ephesus, Paul made use of the same evidence – speaking in tongues – to confirm the receiving of the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:6). Even though prophecy (which means preaching) had occurred, it was not the evidence, for those who had not received the Holy Spirit, were able to prophesy too. The sending out of the 70 others to preach prior to the days of Pentecost proves this point (Lk 10:1ff). The occurrence of prophecy at Ephesus could well have taken place after they had received the Holy Spirit. Simply, Christ requires His servants to be empowered by the Holy Spirit (Lk 24:49) when doing evangelistic work, although the two can be in reverse order. In Luke’s descriptive writing, he did not add that prophesying was the initial evidence of being filled by the Holy Spirit (cf. Acts 2:4).

To avoid confusion, it is necessary to explain the two functions of tongues: as evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit and for the common good. The former provides self-edification in prayer (1 Cor 14:2, 4). Those who have received the Holy Spirit may all speak in tongues simultaneously (Acts 2, 10, 19). Since it is concerned with the individual, no interpretation is needed (Acts 2; 10; 19; 1 Cor 14:27). The latter, as a charismatic gift, serves the purpose of edifying others (1 Cor 12:7, 10). It has to be administered orderly, with two or three persons, and each in turn, and one needs to interpret what they say into intelligible words for the listeners (1 Cor 14:27).

In Acts 4:31, Peter, John and some believers were described as being filled by the Holy Spirit and thereby spoke boldly “the word of God”. To some, to speak boldly is the evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit. A careful reading of Acts would make us realize otherwise. This is not a passage of Spirit-reception, as Peter and the rest had already received the Holy Spirit (Acts 2). This is only the description of the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit in their preaching work.

Even while Acts 8 does not specifically state that the Samaria believers spoke in tongues, a cursory study of it would make us discover that the initial evidence for Spirit-reception was neither the ability to perform miracles (v6f), nor the expression of joy (v8), nor faith, nor baptism in the name of Jesus (v 12f, 16). Rather, it was an outward and recognizable sign the apostles (Peter and John) and others witnessed. It even impressed a wicked person, the magician who desired to have it. It had to be tongues. Luke in his writing has implied so by the word ‘gift’ (v20), which takes the same root word in Greek as stated in the case of Pentecost (Acts 2:39). The other reason: Peter later went to Caesarea (Acts 10) and confirmed the receiving of the Holy Spirit based on tongues, thus at Samaria he could not have determined Spirit-reception by another sign, but tongues. Remember! The Bible is consistent.

The account on the conversion of Paul does not state tongues was spoken, but he affirmed in his first epistle to the Corinthians that he spoke in tongues more than all: a sign that he attributed to the Spirit of God (1 Cor 12:10f; 14:18).

Those who do not believe in ‘tongues’ argue also that “when the author of Acts emphasizes a specific phenomenon, such as the speaking in tongues, he does not seem to do so to teach a doctrine of Spirit-reception.” They claim that there is no hint that this was the purpose; the author’s intent instead was to show the validity of the gospel development described in Acts.

We know the gospel is the word of God (1 Pet 1:25). It is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith (Rm 1:16f). The Lord Jesus has promised that the Holy Spirit is to be given to those who ask (Lk 11:13; 24:47ff) – it is part of the gospel, which is His word (Lk 24:44). Many in the end time shall speak in new tongues (Mk 16:17). The first fulfillment of this promise of Jesus took place at Pentecost (Acts 2:4). It is true that the Holy Spirit validated the development of the gospel; but the evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues (Acts 2, 10, 19). This is the pattern of the apostolic beliefs.

Likewise today, we who love God also hope that the Gospel of Salvation will be speedily spread and appropriately developed. However, if such a proclamation is without the validation from the Holy Spirit evidenced through speaking in tongues, it is most likely we have missed the mark of being saved (Eph 1:13f; Jn 3:5; Tit 3:5). If speaking in tongues validated the gospel development in the apostolic time, but does not do so today, perhaps we should examine the ”gospel” that we preach.

Whenever the author of Acts relates a religious story of speaking in tongues, we should evaluate it with our belief. If our present experience with God differs radically from it, the right thing to do is not to change its actual meaning to match our belief; rather, we should renew our belief to conform to what it teaches.

There are many facets of teaching on the Holy Spirit. Sometimes, the emphasis of one author on the Spirit differs from the others. However, this does not imply that they are contradicting each other. Rather they are emphasizing the different aspects of the same Holy Spirit. For example, Luke stresses more on the work and the evidence of the Holy Spirit, which is the speaking of tongues. Paul underscores Spirit-reception as a pledge, deposit or guarantee to enter into God’s Kingdom (Eph 1:13f; 4:30; 2 Cor 1:22; 5:5). He also underlines that the Holy Spirit is the renewing agent (Tit 3:5), orientating a person to a mode of behavior pleasing to God (Rm 7-8) and interceding for us to submit to God’s will. Similarly, in 1 Corinthians, Paul stresses that ‘tongues’ edifies the speaker when praying to God. It is also a way in which God conveys His message to His people through an interpreter. It is also a sign to the unbelievers.

There are three accounts of tongues speaking. Three times should be more than enough to confirm anything. Thus, speaking in tongues becomes the natural result or phenomenon of receiving the Holy Spirit.

In sum, if we look up all the examples pertaining to the evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit in Acts, the speaking of tongues is always the accompanying sign (Acts 2:4; 10:46; 19:6). The apostles used the experience of tongues speaking at Pentecost (Acts 2:4) as the foundation for determining the receiving of the Holy Spirit. It became the ‘way’ He was received in their later empowered-ministry (Acts 10:46f). It is also independent of any other signs when the outpour is described. In fact, it is always stated first, if more than one manifestation of the Holy Spirit occurs. These three passages unravel the biblical pattern of the early Christians’ belief; and it is also the standard for us to discern whether the Holy Spirit is received.

The two functions of speaking in tongues:

Charismatic tongues (1 Cor 12:1, 10-11)
1. This is tongues in preaching
2. It is for the mutual good of the community of faith (1 Cor 12:7; 14:5, 26c).
3. Its target audience is the church (people). There were members at Corinth who preached to the church community in tongues (1 Cor 14:27-28).
4. It requires interpreting (1 Cor 12:10; 14:5, 26-28).
5. It is only given to some at the discretion of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:8-12).
6. It has to be done in turn for maximum effectiveness (1 Cor 14:26-28), to maintain order in the church.

Dorean tongues (Acts 2, 8, 10)
1. This is tongues in prayer.
2. It is to edify the speaker alone, who utters mysteries in the Spirit (1 Cor 14:2, 4).
3. The target audience is God. This is the evidence of one receiving the Holy Spirit when praying to God (1 Cor 14:2). These examples are scattered throughout the book of Acts.
4. It requires no interpreting (Accounts in Acts).
5. It is a common experience of all who have received the Holy Spirit (Acts 2, 10, 19).
6. It can be spoken in groups (Acts 2, 10, 19) or by a person who has received the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 14:2, 4).

In Acts 2 when the Holy Spirit was poured out, they were speaking in Dorean tongues. What the people of various language backgrounds experienced was a miracle. God opened their ears to understand Dorean tongues, which speak of the wonderful works of God and mysteries (Acts 2:11, 1 Cor 14:2). This confirms what Paul says in 1 Cor 14:22 that [Dorean] tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers. However, note that there were others who mocked and said they were drunk (Acts 2:13). God did not open these people’s ears likely because their hearts were hardened.

So when you refer to 1 Cor 14:13 about translating or interpreting tongues, this is referring to Charismatic tongues according to the original Greek text. Paul instructed them to keep silent [from prophesying] if there was no interpreter because this was causing disorder at the time in Corinth. However, note that Paul did not ask them to stop speaking in tongues altogether (Acts 14:2, 28, 39). After all, speaking in Dorean tongues is a given when one prays or speaks to God, and is the evidence of having received the Holy Spirit (as explained in the above post).

thomasthai, be careful of your assumption and your book, as the book that you are reading now suggested that all believing believers can do miracles and healings

-double post-

This post has been edited by Vrese: Oct 23 2018, 04:23 PM

"...must be the most futile thing to do."
That's what I mean if there is a possibility of these people are behaving like this, these people must be coming from a path that taking Christianity/Jesus as part of their teaching. At the last minute decided to lift up the Lord authority to higher position when the truth and judgement day upon their faces.

By the way, mind if I ask why there is 2x Lord in these verses ('Lord,Lord'). What is that mean?

The instances in Acts where the new believers began speaking in tongues is a sign for the Jews that God has opened up salvation to the gentiles, samaritans, old testament saints (john baptist's disciples).

You gotta understand that the Jews thought that salvation is only for Jews. God needed to show the disciples that salvation is open to the rest, hence the tongues as a sign.



The point of these passages is really to record the beginning of the gentile church, not a prescription for all believers to speak in tongues.

The biggest mistake people make today is to take every description as a prescription.

The whole of 1 Corinthians is really a rebuke for the corinthian church where they were coveting and abusing the gifts. It's really hard to find any mandate in there to support anything.

Let's go to the crux of the issue in chapter 12:


For many years, the pentecostal church teaches the 'second blessing', the belief that after conversion, you have to ask the Holy Spirit to give you the gifts, based on that verse.

I have been puzzled by the verse for years, because

1) Paul just mentioned in verse 11 that the Spirit gives according to His will.



Why would Paul turn around and ask them to ask for the gifts?

2) The word 'But' indicates that the result is not what is expected from the preceding verse. So a command to desire the gifts is awkward here.

I then came across the Syriac New Testament and this is how the verse was translated :



Everything clicked into context! The corinthians all wanted to speak in tongues and do miracles. Paul was rebuking them for this.

I guarantee you if you replace the verse in the english translation, you will understand everything before and after this verse, ie;

That's why Paul told them to have love is more desirable to having these gifts.

The issue now is this, the church is doing exactly what Paul told the corinthian church not to do, coveting the gifts!

To do that would be dishonouring the Spirit, when Jesus promised that the believers will receive everything full when you are His.

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Oct 23 2018, 08:58 PM

Just google bill johnson and grave sucking. There are plenty of photos of the church people sleeping on the graves of dead christians, beliving they can 'suck' the annointing from dead bodies. There's a photo of his wife on top of cs lewis' grave.

Google it if you dont believe me

These people are really confused. Im only doing my part to warn a fellow brother.

Hi Thomas Thai,

Thank you for clearing that up about the warning.

Its written in Holy Scriptures about false teachers. What is clear is that man cannot live on bread alone but every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. That energy or longing, if it cannot finds its rest in the Word of our Lord Jesus Christ, it will naturally seek something else to satisfy its desire.

Grave sucking ..... (sweats) I learn new things ....

Sigh.......