Look, i dont take any pleasure in bashing other christians. It hurts me too to see another brother being deceived.

But my conscience is bound by the Word. I just can't let anybody promote a false christianity and a false gospel.

Forgive me.

Hi Thomasthai,

Sorry but I've disagreement with your understanding. I also doubt if you really read the previous writings I shared with you. No offense, but the explanation has verses along with it too, did you really read it and check into the bible at the same time?

We can know from Acts 2:3-4... tongues of fire,... speak in tongues is Holy Spirit from Acts 2:4 and from Acts 2:33...He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. And then we go to the following verses for more understanding:

[Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.]

And [Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who dwells in you.] to have Holy Spirit is to resurrect us at the end times, just like Christ did.

Referring to the 2 verses above - How is it coveting when every believers just wants to be belong to Christ? and for resurrection/salvation purpose? Whether is it coveting or not or whether to get a showy gift or not, God reads our heart, he knows our intention. Putting these negative intention aside. Anyone that really want to belong to God and resurrect on the last day still have to pursue to receive the real Holy Spirit.

And about 1 Corinth 12:30 "...Do all speak in tongues?", and lets look at Luke 11:13...how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!" <- Here in this situation, we can see that they're those that do not have the Holy Spirit yet but are in the process still praying and asking and waiting to receive Holy Spirit (speaking in tongue) from God. It doesn't mean that they do not need Holy Spirit, is just mean that some just haven't receive yet so not all speak in tongue. For example in a church, 90% have received 10% still waiting to receive. Looking into the situation in my church, one sister received it after 2 months of baptism and another big news, a brother received after 60 years!!! of praying, asking and waiting. The whole church is so happy for him that it became an announcement in the church.

As for the special gift, some members in the body of Christ would be given different gift from the same Spirit of Christ, some preaching, some healing and some interpret etc. As for the interpretation part, that Paul rebuked, there is a need for me to go into details... too much to write and am busy now, some day may be...
Anyway this whole thing here is like heading to somewhere heaty, for peace sake may be I just don't desire to continue...God bless.


This post has been edited by GirlOnaMission: Oct 24 2018, 02:38 PM

Paul did say; I speak in tongues more than all of you.

This is one hint; speaking in tongues is ok.

Peace.

I think your argument comes with a premise that those who have the Spirit of Holy Spirit = the gifts. If we don't have the gifts, we don't have the Spirit of God in us.

That is almost indefensible position to take. The indwelling Spirit in us operating (Paul's word in 2:13) definitely do not equals the outward gifts in the Holy Spirit. If it is so, most of us are unsaved

Thomas is coming along the line that the Corinthians abused the gifts and it is not longer profitable for the building up of the Body. It is not that having the outward manifestation of the gifts are wrong.

Cheers!

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 24 2018, 03:38 PM

Dear pehkay,

Truth is not always sweet and easy and sometimes is cruel but for people's good so that we don't be deceived and don't procrastinate.
And truth is not to be sugar coated to makes believers feels good and feels safe and risk putting their salvation in danger.
I love and care for other brethens in Christ and that is why I am here to also share and encourage all of us to look for the real truth.
Truth is shared so that people would put in effort to pray and ask from God to receive his real Holy Spirit and really seek where is his real body (his church). Side note, if you found the true church then you get can get laying of hands and receive Holy Spirit like what happened in Acts 19:6 below.

Those teachers that likes to make believers feels good and safe without biblical truth always say to the people this "Once you believed in Christ, you've received the Holy Spirit".
The truth is here >> Acts 19:2-6 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?” “No,” they answered, “we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3“Into what, then, were you baptized?” Paul asked. “The baptism of John,” they replied. 4Paul explained: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the One coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
Key point here: 1) believed but haven't receive. 2) Baptism 3) Laying of hands, Holy Spirit, Spoke in tongues

Pls don't misunderstand me, I wish all have the Holy Spirit (speaking in tongue), is for our salvation. I want everyone to be saved.
The case of the brother in my church that prayed 60 years asking to receive Holy Spirit, we won't think of him being unsave, we all admonish each other is God's perfect timing. And personally, me think - who knows if it is to test your faith and patience?
Truth is if you haven't have it yet then pray, ask, seek, knock and have faith that God will guide, help and give. Faith faith faith.
Don't be deceived and don't be lazy and think "Oh, I already have it, I believed so I have dy la, no effort needed'.

About the gifts, There is dorean and charisma. If you have the time, please read the first message I shared with ThomasThai, have a lot of information with bible verses along.

Sorry, Truth hurts. For love, I shared.
God bless.


This post has been edited by GirlOnaMission: Oct 24 2018, 07:58 PM

Let me share with all, my real life experience with speaking in tongues before one of my in-law returned to our Lord.

Here's the simplified version.

It all begin with demonic possession and it was causing infrequent problems in the household especially after dark. Until I came face to face with the devil and managed to exorcised it out, after that my in-law and the household lived in peace.

Well, that peace was so short lived indeed, when my other half decided to invite the extended pious family member, who is well known for speaking in tongues for some praying over.

That very night after the praying over and speaking in tongues, the Devil returned with a real vengeance ! It was then, I immediately forbade anyone else to come near my in-law and I didn't care how well one is with the gift of speaking in tongues. That's where I had to put my foot down and draw that line.

By the time I had to officially write in for help (didn't know that a letter was supposed to be written at that time wherein all the while I was asking for help verbally !) and before help ever came, one of my in-law had returned to the Lord.

So if I had the chance to relive that very same encounter, you bet there ain't going to be any speaking of tongues whatsoever.

This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: Oct 24 2018, 05:59 PM

After what you have gone through is understandable and may be that is exactly what the devil schemed so that you give up on this promised gift. I know many churches have the unclean spirit pretending to be Holy Spirit(speaking in tongue).

And No offense, another possibility, may be it wasn't fully exorcised out. Even in my church, I know many successful exorcism cases, I learned some cases the devil is like on and off in a person. And I remember the bible did say some will need fasting and praying both to drive out demons.

This post has been edited by GirlOnaMission: Oct 24 2018, 06:44 PM

You are correct Girl on a Mission. The exorcism done was over 2 occasions by myself and my other half praying in at another location. There was peace from that ordeal from November onwards until this year's Chinese New Year, until the speaking of tongues was conducted. And I believed that the worst was over.

So what's written in the Scriptures is true, the evicted demon goes out and brings back even more violent demons, which explains the vengeance.

As it stands now, unless I understand every word that's mentioned during the speaking of tongues like my Holy Bible, speaking on tongues will not apply under any circumstances because I do not know for certain what and which 'spirit' is it that I am dealing with nor do I have the slightest intention of finding out whose who from the underworld.

I love what you did with the notification & snip, it makes reading online so much nicer instead of those useless scrolling repetitive stuffs. How did you do that, please ?

This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: Oct 24 2018, 07:11 PM

When I click reply, in the box there's this [quote=....] and then ending has another [../quote] , I just deleted everything in between this 2 bracketed quotes and write the word snip

[quote=Roman Catholic,Oct 24 2018, 06:59 PM]
snip
[/quote]

Some friends linked me these two, and since they're relevant to the topic I guess I'll post it here

https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library...deceived-part-1

https://www.gty.org/store/dvds/8280-327/sav...deceived-part-2

It's a lot to read but I'm wondering if this lines up with your understanding.

Most of it were alright in the beginning but as it went on & on something else appeared which doesn't sound right. Will sleep on it until something shows up cause I can't really put on my feet on it yet with 100% certainty especially with my limited understanding. Perhaps others can easily figure this one out.

This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: Oct 24 2018, 08:33 PM

Lol. I am afraid, this "truth" going to hurt more if we stand on it. XD

1) From a scriptural point of view, concerning the believers’ receiving the Holy Spirit economically, that is, the Holy Spirit’s falling upon them, only five cases are referred to. Two of them are for the accomplishment of the baptism in the Holy Spirit. These are the instances which took place on the day of Pentecost and in the house of Cornelius.

The other three, the cases of the Samaritan believers, Saul of Tarsus, and the twelve believers in Ephesus, are all considered extraordinary, needing some members of the Body of Christ to identify them with the Body by the laying on of hands.

Besides these five cases, in many cases of conversion, such as the three thousand (2:41), the five thousand (4:4), the Ethiopian eunuch (8:36, 38-39a), the many who believed in Antioch (11:20-21, 24), the many cases in chapters thirteen and fourteen under Paul’s preaching ministry, Lydia in Philippi (16:14-15), the jailer in Philippi (16:33), the believers in Thessalonica (17:4), the believers in Berea (17:10-12), the believers in Athens (17:34), the ruler of the synagogue and many other believers in Corinth (18:8), and the believers in Ephesus (19:18-19), there is no mention of the believers’ receiving the Holy Spirit economically—the Holy Spirit’s falling upon the believers— because in all these cases the believers were brought into the Body of Christ through their believing in a normal way, and they had no particular reason for some member of the Body of Christ to bring them into the identification with the Body by the laying on of hands. According to the principle of God’s New Testament economy, they all should have received the Holy Spirit essentially for life and economically for power in a normal way through their believing into Christ.

So, we cannot generalize a principle just because *some* cases worked as there also a difference between the essential Spirit (breath) and the economical Spirit (wind / upon the believers). Furthermore, the gifts in Romans are not miraculous gifts .... and the charge is walk according to the spirit.

2) By your definition, millions and millions of believers from the 2nd centuries onward, from the Catholic church to Luther, Calvin, mystics, Wesley, Brethren etc etc do not receive the Spirit at all and, thus, unsaved???

3) I won't even list the number of times in the Epistles of the Spirit (Christ) indwelling us (2 Cor. 13:5, Romans 8:9-10, Ephesians 1:14 and 2 Corinthians 1:22, 1 Cor 6:17)


I am afraid, it is very untenable.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 24 2018, 08:45 PM

Well, I have to admit I myself struggle with the painful truth 'will others in other churches be saved too?' because I care and even today I still ache for others. In my church, around 80% of my brothers and sisters around the world already have Holy Spirit, pray speaking in tongue together every Sabbath day, the other 20% are those still in the process of praying and asking and waiting. When we gather together, kneel down and pray with Holy Spirit(speaking in tongue), the sounds is like roaring bubbling waterfalls. No crazy stuff like falling, jumping rolling like monkey, dancing or laughing out of control. If God have given his Holy Spirit to thousands of us. There is no way I will tell you that you don't need it if you want salvation.

About those churches that don't have the abidance of the Holy Spirit, when it comes to the truth, have they taken the wide gate or the narrow gate Matt 7:13? And why did God withhold his Holy Spirit? Jer 5:24-25.

In Old Testament, out of all the people on earth we know God choosed Israelites only. In our world today the New Testament, who does God wants? John 4:23-24, 23 ....the true worshippers, ... in Spirit and in truth, 24 ...MUST worship in the Spirit and in truth.

God bless.

This post has been edited by GirlOnaMission: Oct 24 2018, 10:40 PM

Ah I see.....what you meant was..the evidence of believer speaking in tongues equates to evidence of being saved..having salvation.

hmmm.....I think that is not necesary. But FYI I'm with you...I support speaking in tongues .

This gift of speaking in tongues is enabled by the HS..to which the believer need to believe and exercise..then there's laying of hand to receive this gift.

I'm still trying to follow the argument though..

Thank you but be fully with the truth, not me.... compare and check it with every word in the bible.

The salvation is a whole set, the Holy Bible. For example a person want to receive Holy Spirit(speaking in tongue) but don't want baptism is not right either.

God bless.


This post has been edited by GirlOnaMission: Oct 24 2018, 10:51 PM

Of course, the Bible is the final authority, that has always been the yardstick but what I meant was since you already believe in speaking in tongues that is where I agree with you and I'm with you on that.

For sure Salvation is a whole set but the dying thief on the cross was saved and wasn't baptized, how do you explain that?

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 25 2018, 10:33 AM

Salvation is of God

Romans 10:8-10 (NIV) - 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved

There's a verse that says; Work out your Salvation with fear and trembling..implying we have a responsibility to Salvation. Many a times, the impression given is that we are the one carrying our Salvation. I'm here to share with you, you have no part (in justifying), it is always of God because in the next verse it says in Philippians 2:13 it says "FOR it is God ........implying unless God work in you, you cannot. You get the idea.

Our Part is to fight the fight of Faith and this is shown in the main text of today's devotion in verse 10, from our heart and our faith..we are justified. If you understand the implication of this verse it is a judicial term.

The whole set or entire set of Salvation is to have a solid trust in God, not your efforts. Because the moment you bank in on your effort...there is guaranteed "uncertainty", 50/50, you will never know if you will make it but to put Faith in God there is certainty (100%), that is why there are many verses in the Bible giving us the assurance....the term blessed hope come into place.

Friends, I'm here to tell you, the focus is on God and specifically Christ Finished work on the cross. The moment you try to gauge where you have not measured up or have not done enough or didn't do this or that, you're going back to performance based merit to Salvation which contradicts the meaning of Grace. For those who have followed my devotions, you will know Grace means unearned or unmerited favour of God and Salvation is given to you in the merit of God's grace.

What about the life of repentance? If you think about it..don't talk about the ability, the power to live the Godly life, even faith is a gift "FROM" God....unless God gives you the Faith, do you think you can? Unless you first get your foundation right (above devotion) how will you access God power to live right? Because the moment you try to struggle (the faith is in your performance) God will not. See and understand God will not share his Glory. How do you give glory to God? The acknowledgement of all enablement has to be of God, not you. I leave this to your thought.

God Bless.


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 25 2018, 11:06 AM

What take up your cross means?

Matthew 16:24 (NIV) - Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

What this verse means; your old sinful state must die. You cannot enter in Heaven with a sinful life. Taking up the cross signify a place of death. When our Lord Christ said; take up your cross, it is not implying, you have to work, justifying your Salvation but the "old" identity has to go.

That is why when you accept Christ, the Bible says, in Colossians 3:3; For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. The verse never say, you're dying slowly it's a loooong process but it's a resolute past tense, meaning it's a done deal, immediate state of Righteousness. Remember this important point.

The state is immediate but the character change is a process and takes time. This is where most of the argument takes place. They tie in...effort/performance to righteousness state. This is where we are missing it and it becomes the chicken or egg come first argument.

I believe, unless you hold on in faith, that the righteousness and Salvation is given unmerited..meaning you already have it..no argument..that God "already" gave it to you, The Holy Spirit cannot work in you, to mold you to be changed. The moment you try to measure up, to merit the righteousness status with your performance, you've misunderstood the entire Gospel.

This is the cross road point where most of the arguments throughout the years revolves.

Again I leave this to your thought.

Hi Mr Cee,

Surely you must have heard of the Scriptures which speaks about the good tree, the bad tree with their respective fruits. Or about testing of the Spirit ?

I would thread extremely cautiously under such circumstances, for it's better to be on the safe side that to err big time without even knowing it ! It would be perilous.

I know the verses that you quoted, but the problem is this, is every description in the bible a prescription?

Pehkay has made some points that i agree on, so I'm not going to go through all of them again. The bible is clear that when you believe, you have the Spirit with you. If you say otherwise, Im sorry to say, you are in serious error.

Apostle John would disagree with you. Read 1 John.


How do we know that we have eternal life?
-confess our sins and repent of them
-love our brothers
-do not love the world
-have the right Christology

Certainly said nothing about speaking in tongues?

You need to repent of your false teaching.