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 LYN Christian Fellowship V14 (Group)

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Vrese
post Sep 28 2018, 02:49 PM

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What exactly the meaning of this verse Matthew 7:21-23?

21 “Not everyone who calls me Lord will enter God’s kingdom. The only people who will enter are those who do what my Father in heaven wants. 22 On that last Day many will call me Lord. They will say, ‘Lord, Lord, by the power of your name we spoke for God. And by your name we forced out demons and did many miracles.’ 23 Then I will tell those people clearly, ‘Get away from me, you people who do wrong. I never knew you.’
Vrese
post Sep 29 2018, 01:27 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 29 2018, 12:23 PM)
It just means that these people wasn't born again.

It's a false pretense, a claim that they knew God, participated with God (His Kingdom Work) but here God says He did not know them. Meaning there wasn't a relationship at all.

There are people who argued that these are Christians and they have fallen away..core argument is that they could lose Salvation.

For me...When God says He did not know them, God isn't doing a tongue in cheek statement..Because God cannot not lie. How can God says I never knew you 'IF" supposedly the person really did what they claim (demon deliverance, spoke with power, etc)? It would just mean God wasn't being truthful. God could have said "I knew you but....."

With that being said....For the verse to have correct context, they are people who were never born again. They lied about being able to do miracles or speaking on behalf of God.

God does not lie but people can lie. That is the point.
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Thanks brother. Really appreciate your time spent answering me. I'm amazed on how details you guys capable of looking and reading the text. I hope I'm welcome to ask future question here if I have any.

This post has been edited by Vrese: Sep 29 2018, 01:36 PM
Vrese
post Oct 2 2018, 10:32 AM

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QUOTE(Yggdrasil @ Oct 1 2018, 08:36 PM)
v21: I don't think it has anything to do with 'born again'. The term born again is being thrown around and used out of context. Here Jesus just means that many Christians claim to be Christians but do not feed the hungry, clothe the poor etc. In other words, just being 'Christian' just for the recognition akin to the Pharisees. This is common especially in a lot of mega-churches you see today where people join for for friends, to socialise or find business partners (see City Harvest Singapore scandal)
May i know what is your definition of the term 'born again' here?

v22: Another common theme especially in Protestant Christianity is doing fake miracles as proof that God exist (i.e. healing blind/deaf). If this is true, these preachers are better than doctors and they should have contributed their powers to hospitals instead. Some even claim to have went to hell and back, elected by God, etc (see Phillip Mantofa) or preachers who do televangelism but do not live the life of Christ (see Benny Hinn).
I agree with unknown warrior that God cannot lie. Someone who practice Christianity but doing it differently shouldn't be categorised under this. We should take note that someone who strongly believe in something that he did right are not pretending. The individual just didn't know that they did it wrongly..again God could have said "I knew you but....."

It is best to interpreting by reading the whole chapter and not taking it out of context.
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Vrese
post Oct 22 2018, 11:19 AM

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QUOTE(Mr. WongSF @ Oct 21 2018, 11:03 PM)
If the answer you were given wasn't so wrong, I wouldn't have bothered sending you this.

So here goes:

Lets break down all 3 verses slowly.
Thanks for your long explanation. I really appreciate the help here. Im a new comer and learning from you guys. Here how I see it so far:

v21 The only people who will enter are those who do what my Father in heaven wants
What does 'doing' here mean? Keeping God's commandments. They failed to keep God's commandments till the end. They began as believers, but ended differently.

In short, they fell away. Just think about it. If you are a not a Christian, would you call Jesus 'Lord'? Say, if you're a Buddhist or a Taoist, would you call Jesus 'Lord'? Doesn't make much sense, would it? 

Get my point? Yes, these people were ONCE Christians.
if we take it as "In short, they fell away", God could have just say "I knew you but..you fell away"? as your saying "these people were ONCE Christians." we have made God lying here. God cannot lie and I took it as logical.

v22  by the power of your name we spoke for God. And by your name we forced out demons and did many miracles.
This verse is the most telling. It's the key as to what/who the identity of these people really are/were. Examine this verse carefully. 

They could cast out demons!!!

How do you actually do that? Well, not unless you have a higher authority!

You cast out demons in the name of Jesus! How can one possibly do that?

Well, unless they're Christians of course!

You don't see Buddhists or Hindus going, "in the name of Jesus, i command you to come out!", Do we?  laugh.gif

Also, they claimed to have performed miracles in whose name? Yes. In Jesus' name. They definitely acknowledged him at one point as their Lord.
For more evidence of this, pls kindly refer to verse 26 below :   

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Matthew 12:22-28

A House Divided Cannot Stand

22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the [a]blind and mute man both spoke and saw.

23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”

25 But Jesus knew their thoughts
, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.

26If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?

27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.
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So in conclusion, these people were definitely Christian believers at one point. Unfortunately, they didn't persevere til the end. They went back into the world after experiencing the power of Christ in their lives,

which was pretty evident, given the miracles & exorcisms that they could perform.
"But when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, committing the same abominations as the wicked, will he live? None of the righteous acts he did will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness and sin he has committed, he will die." - Ezekiel 18:24 

This is the part where human could have tell lie or just a fake miracle (maybe try to pull something to be able to enter Heaven). While a real christian who do practice christianity (doing what the father want) but doing it in the wrong way couldn't be categorised in this. As someone who truly believe following the right path are not lying as they believe its the truth. I couldn't point out who this people are but maybe the religion who took christianity or Jesus only as part of their teaching. Maybe something like Mormonisme..maybe I'm wrong in this, I don't.

v23 Then I will tell those people clearly, ‘Get away from me, you people who do wrong. I never knew you.’

While in this verse I agree to take the direct interpretation as it is. God never know/knew these people who did wrong (using christianity as part of their teaching to get credibility?)

I think that the explanation given by the previous poster to you is very flimsy, considering that he was just using word play to justify his stance. Not a terribly solid premise to base the whole passage on, IMO.
In the Contemporary English Version for instance, it says :

"But I will tell them, "I will have nothing to do with you! Get out of my sight, you evil people!"

All i can say is that, you will have to determine in Greek or Hebrew, whether 'I never knew you', was originally in the past tense or the present tense or even past participle. Also, look up parallel passages.
The warning above, given to Christians is indeed sobering. It's a warning that the possibility of falling away & ship-wrecking one's faith is a very really possibility if we're not careful.
Hope this helps  icon_rolleyes.gif
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highlighted above is what I can take as logical interpretation at the moment. Hope you can correct me further..Thanks again
Vrese
post Oct 23 2018, 01:36 PM

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QUOTE(Roman Catholic @ Oct 22 2018, 10:28 PM)
To Vrese

Question : Please explain what you meant by a "fake miracle", when you wrote earlier "This is the part where human could lie or just a fake miracle...."

TQ.
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These people never did the miracle but admitted to have done so for the sake of entry into heaven. My guess is this verse is talking about a prophecy about a group of people who will lie how they too believe the Lord authority when the judgement day come even though they never did. In order to get entry to heaven they willing to lie.

But what I know, trying to learn here..
Vrese
post Oct 23 2018, 04:20 PM

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-double post-

This post has been edited by Vrese: Oct 23 2018, 04:23 PM
Vrese
post Oct 23 2018, 04:22 PM

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QUOTE(Roman Catholic @ Oct 23 2018, 01:55 PM)
Lying just to be admitted into the Kingdom of Heaven, must be the most futile thing to do.

No worries, we are all learning.

Just that "fake miracle" never crossed my mind. Any miracle done in the Lord's name is worthy of praise, for that miracle was meant to heal.

As for a "fake miracle", I don't even want to go there. Pointless to begin with. But it's always good to be aware of the existence of such things but that would it, just for me. TQVM smile.gif
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"...must be the most futile thing to do."
That's what I mean if there is a possibility of these people are behaving like this, these people must be coming from a path that taking Christianity/Jesus as part of their teaching. At the last minute decided to lift up the Lord authority to higher position when the truth and judgement day upon their faces.

By the way, mind if I ask why there is 2x Lord in these verses ('Lord,Lord'). What is that mean?
Vrese
post Oct 27 2018, 04:03 PM

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The Hebrew version of Bible are accessible to us. With Bing translation and google translation make it even more easier.

This is the Hebrew version if it reliable.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...-23&version=HHH

Find the verse here for Greek version
http://www.greekbible.com/index.php

Go to any translator website. The word 'never' do exist..

This is the aramaic version.
https://theholyaramaicscriptures.weebly.com/mat-7.html

However, even if we take (Cont Eng ver) "I will have nothing to do with you! Get out of my sight, you evil people!". I still think it giving us the same interpretation/message if we take the situation of the verse into consideration.
Vrese
post Oct 29 2018, 09:54 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Oct 29 2018, 09:37 AM)
What justify you?

Romans 3:26-27 (NIV) -  26 He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith.…

Morning Guys.

When we talk about justification, it's always in the context of what makes you righteous and how you get Salvation.

This verse means that you are not justified by your performance but by the one who justify your Faith. I'll say it again...you are justify by God because of your faith NOT because you performed well.

We need to take in the critical difference in the Christian life.

God Bless

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I've been thinking of this for very long time back then until I found the answer. This just remind me of it again. I agree..again!
Vrese
post Nov 9 2018, 10:45 AM

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Thanks. What a good read rclxms.gif thumbup.gif perfectly align in time

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