I'm pretty sure indie developers think it is wrong as well... Do you actually listen to what you say?

Again, if you feel that corporations are being unfair by inflating the prices and being greedy, the right thing to do is to NOT buy AND play it. Pirating it just tells them that we're all a bunch of cheapskates who still love their stuff and are just pirating because we can. And thus they'll increase the DRMs on everything... That what you want?

This post has been edited by H@H@: Jan 16 2010, 05:15 PM

yes i do, i was refering to the oxymoron of things. when a company copies something its alright but when someone else does it but without the political clout or business poweress its not.

the right thing? well like i said quite clearly i dont see why should one apply to rightous morals when we are dealing with a company that is out to exploit people. yet again, most products if given the argument of piracy increases their services and value added quality. this is the age old "right " way to do business, not whine about direct illegal subsitutes and then even worse fail to provide subsequent support (beth is yet to fix its loving crashing issues). only in the software industry which i know a pirated dvd can work as well as a original, and the companies can whine and impose further software to stip the buyers of their rights.

its not right to buy pirated sure, but is it right for companies to be lazy and not offer support?

So your years of studies it comes to you that pirating is morally acceptable? Is it what you meant? I couldnt comprehend.
I dunno about corporate responsibility, but i do know that it is a consumer responsibility not to buy pirated goods.

Once in a blue moon a corporate catchline can make perfect sense.

Yes, recent bloom of indie devs shows many of them wanted to escape the clutches of evil corporation. But that doesnt stop their games being pirated. Sad.

Im glad you do not support piracy. Sure corporates are evil, but by "condoning" i feel you are giving the wrong idea like "we should pirate to show how corporates being greedy", which do no good to our beloved game industry.

p/s: i swear this is the last time i rebutt against piracy talks

This post has been edited by Abyssio: Jan 16 2010, 06:05 PM

Then what about the indie devs then? Piracy is a global problem, not one affecting big companies only. What about them? There can't be a double standard.

And like I said, if you don't agree with a company, DON'T USE THEIR PRODUCT. Pirating it doesn't make you a freedom fighter... You're just a pirate.

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Added on January 16, 2010, 6:05 pmThen what about the indie devs then? Piracy is a global problem, not one affecting big companies only. What about them? There can't be a double standard.

And like I said, if you don't agree with a company, DON'T USE THEIR PRODUCT. Pirating it doesn't make you a freedom fighter... You're just a pirate.

This post has been edited by H@H@: Jan 16 2010, 06:05 PM

cheap and good ... just like tesco!

Tesco Good ? Cheap maybe la

Gula naik sket je dh megamuk satu Malaysia .. Apa lagi CD/DVD

If theres still supply theres always demand Most Malaysian will go for the cheapest ....

Are they putting a gun over your head forcing you to buy them? Is it a monopoly of an essential service? Are there no other legal/acceptable alternatives?

Are they forcing you to play their games? How unethical and horrific of them... Bloody thieves...I tell ya

And again, they're not holding a gun to your head and forcing you to subscribe.

well the thing about business ethics (some business CEO's probably wrote this) is that it normally deals with doing something right (normally just minimalise damage) but allows room for exploitation. morally acceptable is hardly the term id use for it, but id say if we do analyse with arguments of what business do vs piracy, its like pot calling the kettle black you get what i mean? thus i normally say that hey piracy is not really wrong if you consider what firms are doing.

indies will always be indies, in any industry indies will always be the back sheep of the market. you can pick it indie car producer, indie musician,indie movie maker. it is sad really but something that well cant be helped

ah this is where you get me wrong, i dont pass judgement doesnt mean i am supporting it. basically i am a neutral
and my arguments all center on why i dont pass judgement, to me its like two evils arguing which is lesser of a bad guy.

on indies refer to the above

again i condone, basically i dont pass judgement and i disregard the arguements for and against. but really i follow the same thought as these businesses do, simple and yet understandable - i exploit. i believe in a rather consumer version of miltons argument of businesses, firms are there to make money and exploit markets; i am there to exploit markets and save personal value.

the rather odd thing is that most businesses agree with me, just that they do it in their courts

Publisher being greedy? As far as i recall,i only remembered Activision being a bit greedy with PC version of MW2 where they charge as much as the console version.Most of the other developers have maintained almost the same price for years.

Besides,console game's high price are due to the "royalty" fees that developers need to pay to Sony or Microsoft,on top of the cost to cover the development cost.

Lastly,if you find that playing games is too expensive for you,you should be changing hobbies to something else that is cheaper for you.As far as i remembered,other hobbies like collecting model cars(where one car could cost up to RM1500) or photography are equally expensive or more than gaming.Good things doesnt come cheap these days.

Pirating people's hard work because it's too expensive isnt an acceptable excuse.

You are only assuming that all companies behave like Beth which is not true at all.

How about companies like Valve,Relic,EA,Iron Clad etc? These companies have been extremely generous in supporting their games to the extent of giving out free extra content like new levels,game modes,weapons,cars etc or overhauling things that dont work or look ugly.

Have you even pirated a Valve game? I did pirate them last time,and none of them work properly.Random crashes,AI Node Error,Graphical Corruptions are all i remembered from playing those pirated copies,while,these issue doesnt even happen once once i changed to original.Not to forget im getting tonnes of extra stuff and online multiplayer for free.

Your claim that pirated copy works as well as original copy which is not true.Even it works well,pirated copies are often lack of extra contents that developers gave after release.

Developing a game these days arent cheap at all,as most game cost almost as much as a Hollywood movie.

If they gonna reduce the price of their games to suit your needs,how they gonna keep their business afloat? Developing a game aint charity.

Besides,Steam does provide cheap games almost every weekend with price range of RM10 to RM70 which is pretty reasonable.This also means that if retail is too expensive,wait for Steam offers or get cheap budget copies.If you dont have a credit card,edison and deimos would be more than happy to help you to buy the games.

Im not rich,but i do respect people's intellectual property and hard work.I rather dont play,if i cant play the game via legal means,than pirate it by torrenting or buying pirated.

Wow. this shows you are just a lowly pirate, with no less of evil than the greedy corporations. You have a believe that corporations are to be punished by pirating, you stick to that and that gives you all the reasons you need to commit piracy. Good for you.

And we can help the indie game developers by not pirating their work. It CAN be helped. We just need to stay away from piracy.

Kinda agree. If saying about game too expensive. I think movie and music still have room to go cheaper than games, since movie and music recording company pay huge pay cheque to Actor and music artist, which is kinda unnecessary. But the trend for Hollywood is changing recent years, they prefer getting new actors that perform equally good/better than getting expensive senior actors. Again I am a person who not too fancy about brand names they are overrated. I am more looking into values.

Games/software on the the hand is really that expensive to develop. We are not on a 1 man developer arcade game like the old game tetris anymore.

Indie car maker? Uh huh...

You seem to be quite firm with your own beliefs and I shall respect that. But I do hope that you never ever work in the games industry, no offence.

To add on that steam is a good way to reduce the game price.

I am just waiting where the industry have sales big enough that the cost of a big title game can be as low as a few bucks. It is something like we are paying RM6 for legally watch a blockbuster Hollywood movie. (which I wonder why they are charging us soo much pricer on a legal copy of DVD movie LOL<-- they really should change this)



This post has been edited by billytong: Jan 17 2010, 12:01 PM

i call it exploitation. some of the above are legal but not ethical, JCO doughnuts can be considered a pirated version of krispy kreme, do you have such a hate to such a product? it is legal but not "right". do me a favour, pick up your phone and look at it. chances are, it is an AP which screams market distortion thus lesser market share.

yet such things are common ground in our lives, but what makes software piracy sooo special that it is different from the above? why suddenly when it comes to software it is wrong to pirate but then i go out and get an AP phone which is wrong to even be retailed? heck some of these phones can even be stolen in the vast network of international blackmarkets.

yea, indie car makers do exist. the atom from UK was created by ARiel LTD it has only 7 employees, its not linked in anway to any major corps. they only can produce in limited numbers and their ariel atom is a far cry form what is called a proper road car.

but really i cant hold moral grounds on this, i use market disrrupting products thus if i be rightous here then what am i? a lot of things actually sprung from copies, but just in a B2B perspective.

about the gaming industry, none taken cause there are heaps of people like me in there. but not developers, its the managers, market analysts, accountants, you name it. any industry you pick they exploit cheap but not ethically right options.

This post has been edited by +3kk!: Jan 17 2010, 12:17 PM

I disagree with this.Some of the indies band back in early 2000 are starting to appear on the mainstream radio like Death Cab for Cutie,MGMT etc.

Another example would be indie car manufacturers,Pagani,where Lamborghini and Ferrari laugh at Pagani when Pagani announced that they want to design a car to beat their flagship super cars. In the end,Zonda F was released and wipe their cars all over the floor and it's still one of the fastest super cars in the world while Ferrari and Lamborghini dont even have a car on the list top 5 fastest super cars.At the same time,Pagani is gaining it's respect and recognition as super cars manufacturers.

On gaming side,today's well known games like CS,TF2,DotA,Killing Floor were also just some indie mod.Look where they are now, DotA have become a favourite game among Malaysians and being played competitively.

If the indies strive to improve,at the same time,with some luck,they will never just the back sheep of the industry.

People like you are the ones who are killing the industry.

Developers are taking PC as their second platform these days as people like you prefer to pirate games than buying original.

It's not about being ethical in JCO copied Krispy Kremes,it's more about people who work their asses off in making good games getting paid for their hard work.

lets just argue on credit for hard work

will you not eat JCO's because it is a copy, after all you are stealing the hard work of krispy kreme's

or will you not buy AP phones, which steals from the hard work of foreign telcos that subsidise it

it is easy to tell me hey you are the bane of the industry but can you tell me that you uphold no double standards for all products that you buy? everything you purchase is original and licensed?

From what I see from the posts past few pages, many didn't see the bigger picture of what +3kk! is trying to get across though, I had to say this, didn't agree with "piracy is 100% wrong" does not mean "100% support piracy", thus I personally agree with piracy issue falls into grey area.

The tendency for piracy is broad and includes how the economy does it's full circle, big corp works by capitalism, by the same token, isn't it capitalistic approach to maximize personal gain?

let's take a look at +3kk!'s quote,

Let's say every person is a corp, we can see corps copy stuff and exploit them for corp gain(obviously the real gainer is the CEO or the evil boss), base on +3kk!'s quote marked in bold, isn't it same with someone saving money from pirated goods and use the saved money for real essential stuff(personal gain).

Even with +3kk! saying his neutral, no one understand it seems, I urge a stop to posts which have tones of "you said that, you pirate!"

That means if you think that majority's people are jumping into the mouth of shark's in the sea, you do the same?
Man, this is so "Broad"

What you've pointed out is just that you wanted those Fine Dine Restaurant, Luxury Apartment all to close down, just that you can't afford to earn your own pocket to spend on it?

In my point of view, it is broad indeed, there is a few reasons people pirate, though we can't really get solid data for that, like the income rate, spending power, and intellectual property respect mentality of the population.

If we were to compare with Singapore, they have better spending power and also much more strict anti piracy laws, I would say the major barrier for getting original is income rate/spending power, the effect is reflected on the gaming population(much more players there).

Well I'm surprised that somehow my post makes you think I want to close down Fine Dine Restaurant, Luxury Apartment, my answer to that is certainly no, I think the main issue would be what like what +3kk! said:
Those teams of professionals may get some bonuses if their game is a blockbuster, but compare to CEOs which get millions is kind of an insult to their professionalism, yeah sure CEOs determine the direction of the company and provide jobs, but the income difference is imbalance to the core, isn't this the "I exploit" at it's finest?

If I were to advise a friend of mine weather to buy original or pirated, I will have to weight in weather he likes the game alot, his game rig can support or not but most important of all his income level, having seen hopeless/tragic faces, I would advise him the latter, if a friend is well above the means to survive and abundant, I would advise original of course, it depends on the situation and in some way like "I exploit".