Yeah thats right. Game publisher "exploit" game developers, then its totally fine for consumer to "exploit" back at the game publisher. I guess that would really help the oppressed, and underpaid game developers by "exploiting" their game publisher. Awesome. How come i cannot see that.

Well it is game developer who chooses it's publisher, and it's not like every professionals are conscripted in the industry. It's their choice for a publisher, and to help the developers getting more appreciation then the only way to do is support their game. Not the other way around.

Oh btw, i dont dine at JCO (or Krespy Kreams lol), and i got my handphone from an authorized dealer. I have great respect for intellectual properties.

that is called capitalism

the gaming industry even despite piracy is flourishing, i could never understand the use of help and support in arguments. its not like the industry is failing thus the failure to support dev's, but actually the other direction, growths have always increased significantly over the years. actually if you cross referenced with other firms regardless of industry the trend of the poor brains always stay the same.

so given the fact that the industry is booming the developers still need support doesnt make very good sense.

also mind you read up about corporate espionage, business model copying, information stealing and so on. the AP models, JCO are just few examples. the japanese automotive industry started with corporate espionage (toyota, eg), starbucks is a copy from european (specifically italian, coffee cafes), the ibanez guitar's was a pirate back then. there are heaps more, you just dont know that what you used is a copy of the original.

personally if i held your mentality i would be a rather hard call to buy anything, the design for a PC is also a copy if you didnt know that (early mac's "invented" the PC, introduced the mouse, etc etc etc) wonder how a PC would be like if mac patented the mouse like how the patented multi touch now.

So you are saying that if gaming industry have enough suckers to fork out their hard earn money to buy their game so every other cheapskate can get the game for free? Wow that's a great mentality. Why don't everyone go and pirate every game they wanted? I wonder why anyone wants to be that sucker huh? How strange.

How could you compare business models with gaming piracy? Oh man how come you cannot tell the difference of copying a digital copy of an intellectual property and your "corporate espionage"?

Oh man this is so funny if you want to take this to the beginning of the big bang, ok not so early like the rest of the civillization stole the paper technology from the Egyptians back in 4000bc, or the blackpower technology from the chinese, or the words technique from Phoenician, or light bulb from thomas edison or....

i believe i made my point here, so it is really up to you to decide what really gaming piracy and "corporate espionage" is.

I don't think the majority of pirates really care about exacting revenge on game publishers, rather they execute pirating for personal gains base on the idea "I exploit", only very small percentage does it as demo or other agenda.

I see pirating(be it gaming, music, books etc) as an after effect of a larger issues, if not mistaken, it's a fact around 10% of the world population controls around 90% of the world resources, I see wealth is built by countless hopeless lives, generally those lower middle group will want to maximize whats available to them, and piracy is one of the option.

im asking why the gaming industry is flourishing yet the development teams still need help and support. will you send aid to a rich man?

piracy is piracy, in the early years japanese and korean companies DO get piracy lawsuits even before intellectual digital software exist. credit where credit is due cannot be only limited to software you know.

lol, the early ages of civilization capitalism and the argument of interllectual property didnt exist. if you want to use a rebuttal use something more relevant to current times.

honestly, i provided examples of companies copying each other for personal gain, how piracy did build up some companies, also provided a very clear cut argument that the industry is flourishing thus further "help" sounds rather superficial. all you can use to rebutt are just questions, but never provide solid points, examples, facts (all my points can be traced back to its source). if you really want to convince me that digital piracy IS wrong show me something solid, instead of pummeling me with questions.

exactly, how can i be moral about it? thus i condone and i dont bother to choose sides

This post has been edited by +3kk!: Jan 18 2010, 10:43 PM

Yes, im giving my money to rich men because they put their money to good use, and develop an awesome game. I'm paying them as provide me a good entertainment, i respect that and they definitely deserve my money as i want them to develop more of the good game for me in the future. Hell they did a good job as game developer/publisher in the first place so thats why they get rich.

it is not a matter of why rich ppl need more money, it is the matter of a publisher and developer did a good job, and they deserve the money for making a great game. You ask me that why send aid to a rich man, and i there's my answer: they deserve it for the good job. But pirates, do not deserve to play a game he didnt work for. It is very simple, no? Do you give money to a kid that can work but decided to lay in bed all day? Now do you think it IS right to get something you didnt pay for? I bet you do.

Yes, so it seems that you do know time changes, and pre-capitalism piracy doesnt count as piracy. Good. Now things change even in modern times, and thus copying a digital copy of an intellectual property is now worlds different from "corporate piracy". Previously there are no such thing as gaming piracy. Like, well, there are no digital games yet. So new technology get introduced, thus new definition and new ideas.

Corporate piracy/espionage exist, and it is clearly WRONG. So it is up to the corporates to settle it between themselves, bringing it to court or whatever if they suspect any breach of intellectual property laws. This happens all the time. But there's time corporates get away with it, as sometimes authority fails to draw a clear line/or the victim does not choose to pursue their rights (humans are not perfect). Sadly, you took it like it is perfectly normal to pirate because corporates do so and got away!

Phew i hope i made myself clear this time.

edit: typo

This post has been edited by Abyssio: Jan 18 2010, 11:56 PM

and i believe that i cannot judge based on rightous moral values, supporting such corporations to me aint exactly right either. what goes around comes around and what they deserve is not 300 bucks a game lol. dont point me to steam, the internet quota itself would mean that i can only dl the game in half a year and makes things worse - selfish to others but that is also the reason why i do not pirate.

the idea you have that corporations will take your money and do the right thing is kinda wierd, ive seldom seen a corporation doing the right thing; i know who did "right" things and who didnt. the market for games is an oligopoly and granted without piracy (rather accurate to the model id say) its perfectly clear what will happen. i will not give someone who is lazy money, but i will also not fiercely support something that is out to exploit markets.

on the bolded line, tell me why is it different? so basically based ont hat argument it is right to pirate goods? that doesnt make sense.

its an oxymoron and irony thus my argument, if i were to use the same mentality as these corporations i would infact be a very efficient pirate. but for the sake of the discussion lets say its wrong and i should not do so; but there always comes a time where a friend pops by and ask "dude, can i copy your dragon age?" and will i never be snobbish to say no and turn him away because it is not "right". once upon a time it is good to share what you have, and granted if you ask me to make a choice of my friend vs a corporation - i pick my friend.

i will never support corporations or support piracy, but i will also never turn down a friend when it comes to "sharing" games.

This post has been edited by +3kk!: Jan 19 2010, 08:55 AM

Okay some games does not deserve 300 bucks, then ppl will stop buying it. That's cool. And of course you need to remember...ppl are not force to buy stuff from any game publisher, and they are happily being "exploited" as they trust in that company.

again your biased view on corporations (like corporation should only do charities, not business) makes you think all corporations are no good than pirates. If you read cheesenium's post, or pay more attention the gaming news around the forums you'll see not all corporations out there are trying to suck your soul dry.

Like i said, copying ideas among the industry is different from copying a digital copy from an intellectual properties. Sometime evil corporation tries to pattern a very general idea for purpose of monopoly, but when put to court the evil corporation lost (i remember that a corporation patterned MMO gaming...lol great stuff). Copying a digital game is not like trying to copy an idea. When copying a digital copy of intellectual property you are not just stealling a general idea. You are stealling a work where thousands of people put their hearts and soul to create masterpiece. A digital game cannot monopoly or "exploit" anyone. If you still cannot understand the difference between an idea, a pattern, or a video game then i sorry i have no more volcaburary in my brain to explain this. Maybe I just suck at explaining. Maybe a little bit of help here, from my fellow forum ppl?

Yes you can borrow your games to your friends, but if you choose to install the game you are subjected to all the fine prints imposed by the evil corporation. The uber long EULA is just for show? definately not. If you do accept the EULA then you agree to face the consequences. Its not like they force you to sign the EULA anyway.

---

Added on January 19, 2010, 10:39 amYeah, if you think they dont deserve it then you dont purchase it. Thats completely normal. Its not like every gamer is a bloody video game addict that need to swallow up all the games out there in the market. But if you pirate it because you think they dont deserve it, then thats another story...nobody deserve anything for free. Geez i cant believe i need to quote myself again and again.

This post has been edited by Abyssio: Jan 19 2010, 10:39 AM

i wont argue more because i think there's no further reason to do so, if you really eat up these corporate EULA, conditions and propaganda like its the bible i really have to give it to you. i belive i've given more than enough examples to support my claim. you dont have to requote, you said it quite clearly "i dont pirate because people who dont buy it, dont deserve it; nobody deserve anything for free.." if you'd rather choose corporations and their terms and conditions over the people closet you, i rest my case.

good luck

This post has been edited by +3kk!: Jan 19 2010, 12:42 PM

seriously, i think pirates who never buy original need to buy original of the game they like

i used to pirate games last time, look at the price tag of an original games i was shocked and wonder why does it cost 10 -20 times much as the pirated one.

Play pirate games, crashed, bugs can't patch> kills the fun of playing

decided to save up money buy original games from my favourite dev

played online authentically for the first time, stats recorded, achievement displayed, low ping servers available

made lots of friends in-game

these are the things that drive me to buy original games
games support, servers, discount prices, community, the feeling

just buy an original game you really like than you will start to understand how the developers feel when they made the game.

Do you want your games to be pirated if you are in their shoes. Just be them for a second there, these games are their hard work , countless hours poured in to create a product. It doesn't end there, they still ahve to polish it.

Yes, there are some publishers who are evil........

but as long you like the game, buy it original

i am proud to say i haven't bought a pirated game for 9 months now and i prefer to keep it that way.

In conclusion, piracy is bad

Go buy original ^^

can valve be consider as publisher?

if yes, that company is a good example

Here's a fact:
Pirates only pirate big game titles. I mean, you won't find a pirated copy of indie work. Cause they know AAA titles will be a hit once it's released. So they hitch the ride without authorization.

To combat piracy, I see there are only 2 ways: lower down the price/go back to the shareware-way, that is, release a semi-full product for the consumer to try first, if they like it, just buy it. The next way is sell the games through digital distribution (I miss those big manuals..) with full tech support i.e. patch and DLC (I don't like DLC though, to me it kills the modification capability of a game).

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/11/15...piracy-rate-82/

Not really la bro. World of Goo, Audiosurf, Trine, PvZ, Braid, even AAAAAAAAAAAA, you name it. Uncle google do the rest of the job. In fact, there's time where pirates user can play it earlier before the games was even released on Steam etc etc.

So yeah, pirates are pirates. THEY PIRATE EVERYTHING.




Lol, I think I'm being hypocrite here.

Hyperbole isn't your friend.

And once again, your argument ignores the very essence of a game pirate: Why buy if you can get it for free?

This post has been edited by H@H@: Jan 20 2010, 09:19 AM

Buyers of original games should be rewarded more NOT further punished with double DRMs.

DLCs should not include DRMs since it's tied to the original game anyways and most of the time your online account.

These days I can't be bother to pirate anymore because it's just too much hassle. Buy game go back install, don't work (ranging from crappy disc, was not cracked properly) or download game, don't work go find patch, download patch search crack, get stuck. Too much work, besides buying from Steam sales are almost as cheap as their pirated counterparts.

Again,you are all assuming that all,every single one on the planet,developers and publishers are just evil capitalist corporations.

There are evil capitalist corporations,but in that basket of rotten apples,there are some who arent and they are people who are genuinely making games because they love making game or innovating games.

I would say some people here havent even touch games from those people.

Besides,Steam alone have gave me enough reasons for not buying pirated.I dont see any reason for buying pirated anymore.

---

Added on January 20, 2010, 11:36 amI dont care JCO copied from Kripys Kremes or Starbucks from some Italian cafe,since copying from other people is always unethical,that doesnt mean one pirating games is ethical,even if the publisher or JCO is unethical.

You are saying that since JCO copied from Krispy Kremes,you can pirate games,but have you seen the consequences of pirating games,not all publishers are earning money each year. Even EA have been making a lost for past 2 years and THQ have been making a lost for past 4 years,barely keeping a live with a few more popular franchise.If piracy still goes on,seriously,PC will be a dead platform like Mac.

The best example would still be Iron Lore,developer of Titan Quest got closed down due to piracy which results to bad sales of the game.

JCO copied from Krispy Kremes,Krispy Kremes is still have their business,with JCO as their competitor.While,in gaming,many companies are not doing well,especially independent game developers or smaller publishers like THQ,piracy have large impact on gaming which will eventually lead to bankruptcy for them.

Most of the stuff i use are original and licensed whenever i can get.Changing from a full pirate to original user takes a long time.I have been using mostly open sourced programs,instead of using cracked programs.

This post has been edited by Cheesenium: Jan 20 2010, 11:39 AM

its not about a corporation ethics, but will you still go out and buy that unethical product? the problem of market distortion products is that the wide avalibility of it, but the same ethical issues do exist with it as do software piracy. companies make constant losses year after year on this alone and malaysia is ridden to the brim with such items. i will admit that i buy such things thus i cannot admit that i am anti-piracy, what is the purpose of claiming proudly that i dont buy this yet later i will go and buy another market distorting product.

on the losses and stuff, the last tiem i checked the video game industry as a whole including PC was thriving. read various articles and charts on growth, and it was a constant upswing really. i wont bother to dig up those reports again but i did that just last quarter of last year.

the real reason why certain companies are failing cannot solely be attributed to piracy, this is mainly because piracy deals with market share and market share is very very hard estimate to calculate. also note and i have repeated this a lot of tiems, the gaming industry is an oligopoly; this pretty much explains a lot of my arguments and answers why small developers and small publishers are failing. this is written in stone, pick up any business markets book and do extensive research on it and youd realise why. it also explains some of the mergers and acquisitions in the market.

plus, dont quote me steam, if i could get steam i would have did it. i pay 300 bucks rm a game and by just pure consumer value i am more valuable than most people here, but i dont finch or go out of my way to pirate. in actual sense if you really want to put an asid test on gaming price i passed, i am price inelastic; the same however cant be said for some champions of piracy that ive seen.

ive always stood by my stance that i am a neutral. i wont tell a friend to f*** of if he wants to copy my game nor will i say hey stop pirating you thief. given if the game is good i will buy ori (Dragon age was really something worth it) but i will also not turn down an offer to share stuff just on corporate ethics.

it is easy to pose as a champion on forums such as this, IMMA DUN PIRATE COZ IT ARE BAD. but not easy to do it so in a proper environment, will you be a snob and tell your friends hey stop pirating and get your own game? will you say hey i am going to stop gaming altogether when the market becomes rather perfect oligopoly? i can NOT bring myself to that and i admit it, but i leave this as an open question for you.

This post has been edited by +3kk!: Jan 20 2010, 12:24 PM

The media would say otherwise,as whats on the media for gaming today is mostly console,PC have taken back seat now and it is not thriving in any way.

i dont use the common media as my source, and i also look at a marco view of things. consoles are more profitable even when it comes to low piracy in PC gaming. its obvious why, consoles have clearly defined market size and segments, consoles have obvious oligopoly supportive traits. just any one of these two would spark interest and forsake the PC, and most importantly piracy is also a problem in consoles.

but really those two points, clearly defined markets and the advantage of oligopoly are industry killing advantages. thus really your support of the not soo evil corporations kinda back fired in a way, they go where the money and advantage to exploit is. read up any business book, go borrow any 1 marketing book (lets not even touch oligopoly) and read about eh benefits of clearly defined markets and how rare it is to come by youd realise why consoles > pc.

its all business my friend, its sad and sorry business. there was never a reward at the end of the tunnel, and its all written in stone for PC.

This post has been edited by +3kk!: Jan 20 2010, 01:20 PM