How do you love God?

By what measurement do we use to gauge our love for God?

And what is the reason I want to love God. For wealth? for health? for protection? for eternal life? Those seem like self-seeking attitudes.

We can only love God for His sake. Otherwise it is natural and selfish. You love God with God's love out of being filled with His very inner essence to be His duplication (also from loving Him). Only by being filled with Him as the Love, can you love God for His sake. Not because you love Him for the sake of some persons, matters, or things.

We know it is not God's intention that we not love others; rather, He wants to direct our love. He wants us to love others not for ourselves, but for Him and also in Him.

Well, He knows where we are. So, He will touch us as we grow



This post has been edited by pehkay: Jul 6 2018, 05:01 PM

You saying because we got filled and get thrilled with the presence of God and that invoked a feeling of love to God? I doubt that.

Do we have a good reason to love God other than for the purpose of seeking our own self-interest i.e in order to be entitled a place in heaven?

But I think we love God because God extended His love to us first. We can always choose not to love Him back, or trust Him. He is the initiator of this personal relationship between each of us and God. It is NOT US who started this relationship first. Do you agree with me? Let's look at this verse,

John 15
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

That means to me, God said, I know you better than you know yourself. I know what you want, I know you is a selfish human being but it's okay, I still love you.

p.s I am not trying to argue with you or anyone as this is just for my own learning by looking at other people opinions. I have no specific topic in mind just want to go along with whatever in the Bible.

Sure, I am not imposing a ultimate answer. It is just a discussion. But I do hope that you will consider what I posted. That there is another deeper layer (lack of a term) to consider the nature, essence and source of "God extending His love". It will transcend the thought of self-interest .... it is never even about us per se.

1 John 4:16 And we know and have believed the love which God has in us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God and God abides in him.

It is interesting that John does not say that God is love and that he who abides in God abides in love. Instead, he says that he who abides in love abides in God. To us, the former may seem more logical. But the latter is more practical and real. To say that we abide in God when we abide in love means that the very love in which we abide is God Himself. This indicates that the love that we have toward others should be God Himself. If we abide in the love which is God Himself, we then abide in God, and God abides in us. There is a union that we experience in His love.

There is no natural equivalent of this kind of description other than the love a man for a woman yet this is still too natural. I married my wife because of me i.e. I choose her out of attractiveness, personality, compatibility for my sake. And she also. Yet at times, there is glimpse that we do love for the others' sake.

The Bible do have a book, Song of Songs to describe this in type and picture:

Song of Songs is a romance between a great king (Solomon) and a country girl. However, these two do not match each other. In the same way, how could God with divinity marry a wife with humanity? They do not match. It must have been difficult for Solomon, the great king, to court a common country girl. If he had come to visit her in all his kingly glory, she would have been afraid of him. Therefore, the king became a "country man" in order to go to her village to court her, to gain her love. On the one hand, he made himself the same as the country girl; on the other hand, he made the country girl a queen. This is a type of the story of God's romance with man. He would marry a human being, just like the king would marry a country girl. Eventually, this country girl became Shulammite (a female version of Solomon), His counterpart.

Of course, we are not talking about teenage love ... got so much thrill LOL meh (hahahahahha). Well, there might be a little. But when we abide in God, there is freshness, sweetness and newness. When we say, "Lord, I love You" ... sure there is some. But that is just the consequence and result ... secondary.

Also, God wants to filled us with His love with which to love Him: The grace of the Lord which superabounded with faith and love in Christ to the apostle Paul for his dynamic and excellent salvation that he might be one of the greatest apostles ... 1 Tim. 1:14.

This layer of understanding, IMO, will put John 3:16 on another level. God loves <---- is not out of pitiful love but a romance in a union of God man in the highest sense. It uplifts your statement, "God extended ..." thought the Bible uses "we loved because God loved us (1 John 4:19)

Then when we come to your verses in John 15:

15:9 As the Father has love Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.

Out of abiding in His love (being filled), we go and bear fruit. The bearing fruit is the outflow of the divine love we enjoyed

Our work is the outflow of abiding in God (the earlier portion of John 15).

Paul said the same thing in Romans 5:5:

And hope does not put us to shame, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. Coupled with the verse above, he become the greatest apostle.

So, it is not from our perspective: "Oh I am weak, still selfish, but God still love me" .... Rather is, from God's view, "I will make you part of My Bride for My satisfaction because I love you". This is encouraging and full of hope

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jul 7 2018, 12:09 PM

christianity is about relationship with God, with the Bible as the guidance. However, we are not free from the judgement of God when we leave earth. Do you think God will forgive humans that proclaim they are christians but keep doing unwanted things ? (which I guess only God can see in everything) It doesnt mean that once you accepted Christ and being saved, that one can keep doing sins and asking for forgiveness. I hope I dont make it sound like negative, but more of a realistically perspective.

But there are two commandments in which we are told to obey,

Matthew 22
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

Jesus made it clear, they are two different commands. What you are saying about loving each other only fulfills the second command. It doesn't fulfill the first and the greatest command. Why I say that because of this verse,

Luke 14
26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.

It basically made a distinction between loving God and loving human, in which we must prioritize God over anything else. Abraham was told to sacrifice Isaac his son for God's sake. And he chose God over his son.

If we cannot reach the level of decision like Abraham, then our faith is not really faith. The truth is we don't have faith. Do you agree? Knowing this, does loving each other then suffice to meet God's standard of loving Him?

p.s. can we make it less tldr?

I am sorry but loving your neighbour does not equate to loving God by His standard, likewise with the second greatest commandment cannot be equal to the Greatest Commandment.

By the way, what is tldr ?

This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: Jul 8 2018, 09:40 PM

Answering a Jehovah witness
Please read transcript if you cannot understand
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jislV9blVxY

You get it? Nice. OK this is an example: The catholic church is correct when they reject homosexual people into their church. Am I right? There are other protestant churches that have begun to accept LGBT communities into their place of worships because of their distorted view on the love to each other concept. Even some priests (man + man) are legalised to marry. They thought to love each other must also be the greatest command and fullfill the commandment to love God. This is wrong. If we love God we must be ready to go against people who practice abominations but not to the point that we started to hate them. So by doing that we adhere to both commands of God.

tldr means too long didn't read. Basically I am suggesting we should keep our opinion short but still informative enough.

dude


the seventh commandment: you shall not commit adultery


this include pedophilia, adultery, fornication, homosexuality and etc


why the hate on homosexuality only? is it because one is straight so it is easy to obey and then give him sense of moral superiority?

are church gonna reject every single person who break the ten commandment?

Before anyone think Jesus is asking us to 'hate' their family, the word 'hate' is to love less in Hebrew.
This phrase is a Hebrew idiom.

Good you brought out the Abraham sacrifice.
Many think that they love God and go on in sin and expect grace to overcome sin. This is a false gospel.

Love demands action.
Faith demands action.
Grace demands action.

Therefore

Romans 4

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

And

James 1

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Because the LGBT groups are not small, in fact they are very powerful, particularly in the western countries. You won't find any other groups that will flaunt their sins to the world and be proud with it, you won't find the adulterous club or the witchcraft society nowadays. If they exist we don't know, only God knows the heart of men who come and go to the church.

And when a small church begins to accept the LGBT group donations (or bribes), they will be obligated to preach sermons that will not hurt their feelings, all in the name of love, love, love, and love everyone. When that happens, our Lord is no longer the Lord of the house of worship. The LGBT group becomes their Lord instead.

And how will that affect the young kids who are trying to learn about God in this church? Priests flaunting their gayness in front of everyone. Our future is lawlessness.

Nicely explained!

You are right.

Lawlessness was the order of the day at Sodom and Gomorah.
Lawlessness is also becoming the order in the churches. Hyper grace teachings attest to this.

Therefore, it is up to the watchmen on the walls to sound their trumpets and fight against the false teachings and compromise permeating the body these days.

The end draws nearer.

same can be said of certain church covering for their pedophiles priests. and also adulterous pastor invoking the 'do not question the ordained by God' card. we are all sinners. none is morally superior than others


out righteousness is as if a filthy rag in front of God.


so I guess it is good time to stop single out certain sins of certain group just because you are not part of it and therefore can go chanting 'stone that sinner'


however there is a different between counseling a fellow brother on his sin than go full throttle 'you are going to hell' mode


so which are you?

now, I don't believe we should allow LGBT pastor or church blessed gay marriage. what I want to point out here is general hostility against these marginal groups.


The Gospel in an LGBT World

What the gospel means for those whose identity is their sexuality, and for you.

Peyton Jones

She interrupted the sermon I was preaching. "Excuse me. I don't mean any disrespect. I'm a lesbian. You're talking about all of this love and mercy. What does this mean for me?"

It was the launch day of our church plant in Long Beach, California. Long Beach has a large LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transsexual) population. (Only West Hollywood has a higher LGBT population in Los Angeles.)

Our new church was perched on the edge of the rainbow district in a 16-acre park that hosted homeless people, pushers, prostitutes, skaters, families, and gangs. Across the street the city's premier gay coffee house borders the thoroughfare that the regular Pride parade marches through, which sometimes makes it impossible for us to get to our building.

My mind raced through various responses I could give. I knew that whatever my answer was, it might cost us half of our core church planting team.

As I faced the crowd, I was the only one who could see the tears glistening in her eyes as she fought back the emotion. I braced myself to give her the only answer I could give …

Rewind the Tape

The church has been in a difficult position since the 1980s, when the church was broadsided as movies like Philadelphia hit the box office, raising public awareness of the AIDS crisis. A new prejudice—sexism—was the talk of Tinseltown. While gay bashing or cracks about homosexuals could still be heard in pulpits to like-minded individuals in some churches, as they chuckled, the rift widened between straight followers of Jesus and their LGBT neighbors.

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As a young Christian, I felt called to the LGBT community. To reach them though, I felt I had to go outside of the church. I trained as an RN, intending to work in an AIDS hospice. Back then, reading the gospels as a new convert, Jesus struck me as a radical. I was convinced that if Jesus had come today, he'd hang out with those who had AIDS.

After all, they had been ostracized like modern day lepers. The Jesus I read about was always on the wrong side of popular religious opinion. He alienated the "righteous" because of his proximity to the broken. He was the "friend of sinners." He broke taboos spiritual, racial, and social.

When our church is reaching the community, Sunday morning smells like alcohol. Lesbians sit in church holding hands.

Two thousand years later, the church rarely comes close to being as radical as Jesus was.

Take the woman at the well, for example, or the woman caught in adultery. Jesus, without minimizing truth or justice, set their sins aside so that he could get at their souls.

As Christians, we've been grumpy neighbors. We've fought political wars instead of loving people compassionately. Those listening to us believe that we consider LGBT people as our enemies. We haven't learned our lessons from our mistake of the 1980s.

A Missed Opportunity

Thirty years ago, as AIDS swept the nation, Christians missed a unique opportunity. Prominent Christians preached that the disease was the judgment of God, while the gospel took the back seat. We missed the chance to suffer alongside AIDS patients, to bring the sick and dying whatever comfort or mercy we could extend.

Had we done so, instead of fighting the traditional values battle, we'd have neutralized any accusation of bigotry, because although we disagreed with the lifestyle, we still viewed them as worth saving and worthy of love. Such action would have been an embodiment of the gospel itself.

For 30 years we missed it, our unique opportunity to be AIDS activists. To be Good Samaritans, loving those who are different from us. To earn the right to be heard. And now we wonder why no one listens?

Caught in the Middle

In Jesus' day the Pharisees were committed to upholding the law with heartless precision, while the Sadducees were dedicated to throwing out anything that was difficult to believe. Religious conservatives and liberals. Jesus neatly avoided both camps.

Today theological liberals have adopted a "theology of convenience" in their dedication to reaching LGBTs, but dodge the difficult responsibility of faithfully representing a God who is as pure and holy as he is loving. Conservatives make their protective last stand on the high hill of morality, but dodge the difficult responsibility of actually loving their neighbors.

Both sides push people further away—though in opposite directions—from the God of the Bible. One side erects an idol of purely tolerant love, while the other preaches a righteous but wrathful deity that no one really could love. Both versions of God are easy to ignore.

Jesus glided deftly between these extremes. He threw no barriers in people's way, nor did he compromise God's holiness. There is tension here. It's not easy to understand, to preach, or to live. It probably takes a divine being to get that exactly right.

That was the dilemma I faced that day as the woman's question hung in the air. "I'm a lesbian. You're talking about all of this love and mercy. What does this mean for me?"

I answered, "It means the same for you as anybody else."

For all I don't know, I am confident that nobody gets a separate gospel.

One for All

I heard gasps from the crowd. For real. They betrayed those who didn't really understand the grace of God. Similar gasps must have been heard when Jesus singled out Matthew with his index finger and said, "Follow me." There was tension in the air. It was uncomfortable.

Then something beautiful happened.

An art professor called out, "Nobody here is any different from anybody else in God's eyes. You should get to know me. You think you're a hard case!"

Ten heads over, another woman raised her voice, "God loves you. You know how I know? He took me. I was a homeless, alcoholic wreck. Nobody wanted me, but Jesus wanted me, and I know he wants you too."

That day those who had been forgiven much, loved much. A grace sprang up from the core of their beings, and it overflowed.

It's ironic, but the church has always struggled to understand God's grace. Many Christians still think that it enables people to get away with murder, rather than transforming us from the inside out. They fear that grace means the "lowering of standards." Although God has never indicated that his definition of sin has changed, our lives may not be completely stitched up this side of heaven.

Like everybody else, members of the LGBT community come in with a lot of baggage and their transformation isn't instantaneous. But the gospel is the same for everyone.

Boarding the Plane

When someone from the LGBT community walks through the doors of the church, our approach is crucial. If our first thought is, Are you going to stop "that" and change? we become spiritual TSA agents. Hypocritical ones, too—erecting moral metal detectors and demanding people empty out certain banned sins before we let them fly.

And to be honest, isn't homosexuality the only sin that we make a barrier right from the start? We preach God's grace and explain that God will receive, forgive, and cleanse. We emphasize that they've been given the righteousness of Christ, and that sanctification will follow along their journey. But for many Christians, with homosexuality the change needs to happen yesterday. But as Jesus told the Pharisees, we shut the door of the kingdom in people's faces.

Why Are We So Afraid?

Jesus invited scandalous sinners to follow him. Although it seemed a simple, unrestricted invitation, there was an implicit recognition of the teacher's mastery over every area of the disciple's life … eventually. Like leaven, it would infiltrate every area of one's life, but it would happen "on the way."

In The Hobbit, Gandalf issued a similar invitation to Bilbo—to embark on a journey and become something different from what he was along the way. It was the journey itself that facilitated his transformation.

Who can pinpoint the moment at which the twelve were truly converted on their journey with Jesus? Whether the disciple is gay or straight, transformed lives result from going on a journey with Jesus, not cleaning themselves up before starting the journey.

Some churches take pride in a superficial purity. But at what cost? In his classic Life Together, Bonhoeffer quotes Luther: "Jesus Christ lived in the midst of his enemies. So the Christian, too, belongs not in the seclusion of a cloistered life but in the thick of foes … he who will not suffer this does not want to be of the Kingdom of Christ; he wants to be among friends, to sit among roses and lilies, not with the bad people but the devout people. O you blasphemers and betrayers of Christ! If Christ had done what you are doing, who would ever have been spared?"

Real Church Stinks

When the churches I plant are most effectively reaching their community, Sunday mornings smell like alcohol. Lesbians sit in our midst holding hands. There are signs of poverty and substance withdrawal.

Ironically, it's our piety, our sense of superficial holiness while ignoring the real life that always starts beneath the surface, that gets in the way. Bonhoeffer observed, "The pious fellowship permits no one to be a sinner. So everybody must conceal his sin from himself and from the fellowship."

A number of people in our Long Beach plant have left alternative lifestyles, but we had to be patient with them. People who don't eventually repent (as a sign of that inner life coming to the surface) may not last long with us, but we last long with them. For us, baptism has served as a natural unspoken barrier for people ready to change.

The woman at our launch wanted to know what Jesus thought of her homosexual lifestyle. We shot straight with her. We understand that her sexual orientation may never change. We don't choose the objects of our attraction. Those with same-sex attraction don't care how you think they got "that way." The reality is that the gay community tells them "It's how you are. We accept you." The church should be no different.

Within our rows every Sunday morning, people sit confused, silent, and suffering conflicted desires. Do we have the courage of Jesus to break away from the chatter of the Pharisees?

"Who sinned," Jesus was asked in John 9, "that this man was born this way, him or his parents?" Jesus redirected the question. It's not how they got there, it's that they're here now and "this happened that the works of God might be displayed in him."

People in a life of homosexuality need love without blame, and without reservation. As we all do. The cause of our condition isn't as important as allowing it to be used for the glory of God.

Community Before Conversion

When Martin Lloyd-Jones ministered in a Welsh dockside church filled with blue collar, rough-necked converts, he protected them from overzealous believers who wanted to rush the work of the Holy Spirit. He told them to back off. To allow the Holy Spirit to do what he did best.

We cannot rush transformation, and trying to do so will hamstring the work of the gospel.

It's hard for straight Christians to understand the level of support in the gay community. Many members came out to face a lifetime of rejection because of their sexuality. They found a community that embraced and accepted them. A community that said "me too." Even a church that expects a gay Christian to choose against an active homosexual lifestyle has to understand that they need to offer that level of acceptance, care, and true friendship.

The TSA strategy will never work.

What we need is "discipleship in community." People who define their identity by their sexuality need the church community as part of their transformation process to finding their primary identity in Christ.

The community is also a tool of conversion. We need to find people already among us who have been there, who have wrestled with God on these issues and found both love and truth.

Everyone craves love. Many people have lived with years of rejection as a result of their sexuality. Unconditional love can heal the hurts they've experienced and point the way to following Jesus in spirit and in truth.

Peyton Jones is the founder of New Breed Church Planting and author of Church Zero (David C. Cook, 2013).

Not even I, can snatch myself out of His hand? Wheww!! That's a huge relief Then i don't really have to try so hard. And i always thought that synergism is the correct Christianity.

You mean i shouldn't even bother to obey God & keep His commandments, because i simply won't be able to? I didn't know that God will condemn us for trying to obey His commandments.

So the standard is too high to achieve?

Then how come it says, "But just as He who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do, for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.” - 1 Peter 1:15-16

or

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." - John 14:15

What's the point??!! God is so unfair to demand the above from me!


My Faith in Christ is still as strong as ever, even after so many decades. I absolutely believe that He came to die for my sins on the cross. I still enjoy watching porn though. I'm sure you do too

Errr, why not???!!! Since i'm already saved I can't be unsaved. Nothing can pluck me out of His hand. Just ask Thomas Thai. I ask for forgiveness after i finish watching porn. Anything wrong?

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." - 1 John 1:9


Ok, so from what you wrote, i understand that believing in Jesus who came to die on the cross, for my sins is not enough? I must have works to be saved too?

Because Abraham almost plunged the dagger through Isaac's heart, that his Works is considered as Faith?

Awwww.....i understand now.

Are we still sinners after God has forgiven us? How can sinners enter heaven then? If your unbeliever friend is a sinner & you as a Christian, IS STILL a sinner, what's the difference between you & him?

So everyone in your church is a sinner including your pastor?

Also, if our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God, then there's no point in doing good deeds & good actions since God will still see it as filthy rags, correct?

But there are many examples in the Bible where people are considered righteous by God :

“Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God” (Gen. 6:9)

"God was pleased with Zechariah and Elizabeth: “And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord” (Luke 1:6)

"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil." (Job 1:1)

How about Enoch?

So are you sure our righteousness is still filthy rags?

eerrr, if you intend to repeat sin, what's the point of God forgive you ? the example you quote is not that heavy, what if one day it is a heavy crime ? anyway, everything will have it's consequences whether you accepted Christ already or not....

I am more like love the sinner, hate the sin. I have no enmity towards LGBT. But I do feel disturbed with news of churches openly supporting gay movement. As if that action would give glory to God? I feel like it is an insult to God instead.

Churches have the responsibility to care for the flock. What they do can make a big impact to the christians community. There must be a line drawn where church must take a firm stand on the sovereignity of God's Laws.

Yes you were correct but that was in the past. A similar question was posed to Pope Francis (the current pope) and his reply was ”Who am I to judge?", which is strikingly similar if not almost plagiarised from Jesus himself "My friend, who gave me the right to judge ..."

As for the LBGT, I suspect that there are a lot of undercurrent within the Catholic Church too on many other matters as well.

Surely you remember the Scriptures which says in the begining the Creator created people both male and female. And God said, 'For this reason a man will leave his parents and unite with his wife ....' That's explicit enough and there are other verses but KISS (Keep It Short & Simple).

You are right to mention about their distorted views and their thoughts about the Greatest Commandment having equal standing with love for neighbour, is obviously incorrect too.

The official stand of the Catholic Church on LBGT is to hate the sin but love the sinner, which is same with your following text as well.

The contentious issue is how do we move from here onwards to resolving the issue, someone has to play to bad cop but must have a pleasant disposition etc so that everything sounds nice.

What's required is someone born of the Spirit, to call a spade a spade ♠️, like the prophets of old and pay the price for no prophet is welcome is in own home ? How many is willing to do just that risking it to do God's will ?

This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: Jul 10 2018, 06:45 AM