see if this helps
https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopic=5046218&hl=

Definitely! Imma start reading now haha.. Thank u~

You Shield settings, is it custom or default settings you choose? Need further info in order to configure the settings. Thanks again for your help.

cheers!

I see ok i think I'll go with Denon AVR-S960H for the extra features at only Rm500 more.

Hopefully can go for another demo soon, mayb after MCO 

Any speaker brand or model you can recommend for rock music? Budget preferably below RM2k unless significant improvement for slightly more money.. Thank u in advance!
Ya! That's what i thought too, since music is more complex compared to a movie. I think I need to focus my search on those performs well on music then, automatically they'll do fine with movies.

And... Nope, it's not sibilance, maybe, just MAYBE Jamo speakers sound overly bright (not sure how to describe it) to me, will arrange for another demo for other speakers...

Mainly set my eye on Denon AVR-S960H + UK brand speakers since they have a reputation for warmer sounds

Hmm i think i get ur point... Best environment is one without any kinds of sound reflection, is that right?

Btw same question, any speaker brand or model that you can recommend for rock music? Budget preferably below RM2k but willing to top up slightly if there's significant improvement on the sound quality.. Thank u!
I see, based on SSJBen's and your advice, I think I do not need to worry much about damaging the speakers or amp/AVR? Since the human limit will be reached before theirs

I'm eyeing the Denon AVR-S960H now, should be more than sufficient for a long time.

If pair with the above Denon AVR, any speaker brand or model can recommend for rock music? Budget preferably below RM2k but willing to top up slightly if there's significant improvement on the sound quality.. Thank u!

had revised my reply to your post.. i put in some details for you to understand better.. hope that helps.

Custom.

I have mine set to 2160p 59.94hz YUV422 12-bit REC2020.
Rock music usually has a lot of kick drums and bass guitar, preferably you'd want to look for a speaker that doesn't shit the bed below 60hz. Unfortunately, most bookshelves below the RM2k mark can't overcome this limitation - at least not in this market. Wharfedale Diamond 12.2 and ELAC Debut B6 are the only ones I can think of in the NEW-unused market that plays alright below 60hz. If you're willing to search in the USED market, you may be able to snag a pair of Klipsch RP600m for around the RM2k mark.

If you aren't talking about sibilance, then you're talking about the often mis-used term of "brightness and harshness". It's common for people to have hearing fatigue between 2khz and 8khz, this is where the "brightness" or hence "sharpness" of the sound resides in. This can be tamed in many ways, buying speakers that aren't overly "bright" is obvious, but the other thing you can do is EQ out some of the highs.

The term "warm" is also often mis-used, it does not mean what you think it means. Warm IS NOT rolled off highs. Warm actually means a lot of mid bass until the point where the room is taking over to MASK the brightness of a tweeter. Bet no seller will ever tell you that.

Holy shoot just notice it's u who wrote the whole guide, thank u!

I think point 1.3.2 Nominal Impedance, 1.3.3 Recommended Power and 1.3.5 Sensitivity are the hardest to understand since they all are inter-related, after reading those 3 points again and again I'm still not clear on it.. The main concern is I worry about damaging the AVR and speakers by under or even over powering them due to lack of knowledge..

Can I say if I'm doing a 2.0 (2 channel driven setup), and I pair the Denon AVR-S960H which can do 90 W at 8 Ohms with the Wharfedale Diamond 12.2 which has nominal impedance of 8 Ohms and recommended power of 20~120W, there'll be no risk of under or over powering the speakers? Because the Denon is only doing 90W and 90W is within the range of 20~120W the recommended power of the speaker.

Here are the links for ur easy reference of spec:
https://www.stylelaser.com.my/product/denon...opened-box-new/
https://www.stylelaser.com.my/product/wharf...kshelf-speaker/

If in the future I expand the setup to 2.1, 5.1 or 5.1.2, there will be even less power since the power is now shared among more speakers, will it cause under power issue?

Also, if the 2 polar of the speaker cable connectors touch, it'll short circuit the AVR/speaker? I just found it out holy cow   

Thank u! You helped a lot and now even stating the models, I'll see when I can go for a demo of those 2 models.

Q Acoustics 3020i also interests me as i read some good reviews, but the frequency response only goes down to 64hz but the 2 you suggested can go down to 43hz and 44hz. Maybe the bass sounds will better 

I do not dare to search used units, as I'm not experience enough in checking it for potential defects. Maybe next time when I've learned enough from u all sifus 

Ok I'm trying to understand what u mean, I know describing sound is not easy with just words, do u mean that a warm sounding speaker does not mean the highs/tweeters are weak, instead it means the mids/driver of the speaker is stronger/louder that it masks the tweeters sound, when the mids are absent, the highs should still sound bright, is that what u mean?

You are misunderstanding how power works.

Volume is LOGARITHMIC, it is not linear. What does this mean for power? It means that power is dynamic in relevance to the volume you're trying to achieve with the speaker. Simply because the receiver is outputting 90w over 2 channels, it DOES NOT mean it is feeding 90w from 20db to 75db (as an example).

Let's take the Wharfedale D12.2 as an example, its sensitivity is 88db @ 2.83v over a 1 meter distance. This means it takes ONE watt, yes ONE watt to reach 88db of volume if you're standing 1m away from the speaker with no reflections (this is why specification numbers SHOULD NEVER be taken as a real world indication because speakers are spec'd in an anechoic chamber).

Trust me, your ears will give up first long before you even reach 90w of usage from the receiver.

So why do people want 500w per channel for a single speaker then? What's the point of mono blocks? Because in the real world, you don't sit 1m from your speaker unless you're doing a desktop setup. Then there are considerations of other drivers within a speaker. Bookshelves are usually 2 ways (tweeter - woofer), so not much needs to be said about them. But towers which are 3 way (tweeter - mid woofer - sub woofer)? Those need power and that's why towers are usually more efficient than their bookshelves counterparts due to coupling of drivers and crossover networks.

You should also understand that the higher the frequency, the less power is needed. This is because the human ears are most sensitive between the 800hz to 10khz region. Reaching 75db around these frequencies requires much less power than reaching 75db at say low bass frequencies in the 20hz region.

Power is a very long and complicated topic. As a beginner, all you need to know is that you shouldn't get caught up with all the hype around power. It's easy to get loss in it because humans always relate to bigger numbers = better.
My opinion is always try and get a sub (well multi subs actually) to couple them with the bookshelves. Let the sub handle the bass and let the bookshelves handle the mids and upper frequencies.

I've never liked to use the audiophile terms of describing sound. To me, it sounds very stupid. "Warm" for example is such a vague term because bass is from 0hz to 300hz. Which part of it is warm lol? It's more straight forward to describe the issue in the round number octaves of frequency range, rather than blanket it with a single term.

You are misunderstanding how power works.

Volume is LOGARITHMIC, it is not linear. What does this mean for power? It means that power is dynamic in relevance to the volume you're trying to achieve with the speaker. Simply because the receiver is outputting 90w over 2 channels, it DOES NOT mean it is feeding 90w from 20db to 75db (as an example).

Let's take the Wharfedale D12.2 as an example, its sensitivity is 88db @ 2.83v over a 1 meter distance. This means it takes ONE watt, yes ONE watt to reach 88db of volume if you're standing 1m away from the speaker with no reflections (this is why specification numbers SHOULD NEVER be taken as a real world indication because speakers are spec'd in an anechoic chamber).

Ok i can understand this part... 2.83v @ 1m is equivalent to 1w@1m, so i can just focus on the dB...

Trust me, your ears will give up first long before you even reach 90w of usage from the receiver.

So why do people want 500w per channel for a single speaker then? What's the point of mono blocks? Because in the real world, you don't sit 1m from your speaker unless you're doing a desktop setup. Then there are considerations of other drivers within a speaker. Bookshelves are usually 2 ways (tweeter - woofer), so not much needs to be said about them. But towers which are 3 way (tweeter - mid woofer - sub woofer)? Those need power and that's why towers are usually more efficient than their bookshelves counterparts due to coupling of drivers and crossover networks.

Hmm not much to be said about bookshelf speakers cuz they do not need that much power? Tower speakers usually has 3 drivers so make sense to need more power ok ok... But what you mean by the towers are more efficient than bookshelves?

You should also understand that the higher the frequency, the less power is needed. This is because the human ears are most sensitive between the 800hz to 10khz region. Reaching 75db around these frequencies requires much less power than reaching 75db at say low bass frequencies in the 20hz region.

Power is a very long and complicated topic. As a beginner, all you need to know is that you shouldn't get caught up with all the hype around power. It's easy to get loss in it because humans always relate to bigger numbers = better.

Hmm I'm learning not to think that way in the audio world... I also just learned that AVR shows volume from -80 to 0 instead of starting from 0 and up... Anyway all I concern with power is the potential of damaging (is it called clipping?) the system unknowingly after spending RM6k 

My opinion is always try and get a sub (well multi subs actually) to couple them with the bookshelves. Let the sub handle the bass and let the bookshelves handle the mids and upper frequencies.

Haven't budgeted for a sub so far... AVR RM3.5k, speakers RM2k, cables RM300 ady RM6k, what a scary amount for a beginner setup 
I see the cheaper subs are around RM1.5k, are those good enough for newbie? Since they only make the vibration and "boom", not other sounds


I've never liked to use the audiophile terms of describing sound. To me, it sounds very stupid. "Warm" for example is such a vague term because bass is from 0hz to 300hz. Which part of it is warm lol? It's more straight forward to describe the issue in the round number octaves of frequency range, rather than blanket it with a single term.

I see, it really make sense

Ok i can understand this part... 2.83v @ 1m is equivalent to 1w@1m, so i can just focus on the dB...

Hmm not much to be said about bookshelf speakers cuz they do not need that much power? Tower speakers usually has 3 drivers so make sense to need more power ok ok... But what you mean by the towers are more efficient than bookshelves?

Hmm I'm learning not to think that way in the audio world... I also just learned that AVR shows volume from -80 to 0 instead of starting from 0 and up... Anyway all I concern with power is the potential of damaging (is it called clipping?) the system unknowingly after spending RM6k  ohmy.gif

Haven't budgeted for a sub so far... AVR RM3.5k, speakers RM2k, cables RM300 ady RM6k, what a scary amount for a beginner setup  sweat.gif
I see the cheaper subs are around RM1.5k, are those good enough for newbie? Since they only make the vibration and "boom", not other sounds

Ya I like e-guitars and the drums particularly

The frequency range of a bookshelf is often much more limited than their tower counterpart, so you'd run into physics limitation before you run out of power anyways. That's why I said there's not much more that needs to be said about them in regards to power.

Tower speakers are more efficient than bookshelves because often times, they have MORE drivers than a bookshelf. Let's take the Diamond series as an example again. The Diamond 12.2 is a bookshelf, 2 ways. The Diamond 12.4 is a tower, 3 ways. Because the 12.4 doesn't need to have just ONE single woofer doing all the work from 35hz to 1khz, that eases out the load between 2 woofers instead. The 12.4 also has much larger cabinet to move air and thus it's easier to reproduce higher volumes. That is the reason why it is more efficient than a bookshelf.

I'll have to emphasize again, the bass region is what eats up power the most. Very, very few speakers can do full range 20hz-20khz. That's why individual subs are essential. Earlier you mention you're afraid that your receiver may longer cope with multiple amount of speakers when you move up the multi channel chain. That could be an issue yes. But active subs will take care of that, it will ease your receiver from having to deal with the bass region (which again is where the majority of the power goes to).
So you see, subs aren't just for the boom-boom factor, not at all. Subs are the FOUNDATION of your system. If you have good bass, you are already more than half way there to good music.

You don't have to buy everything at once if budget is an issue. This is a journey, not a buy once and forget it hobby. So it's fine to have your AVR, pair of bookshelfs, and some cables to start off with. What the others and I have been telling here is just knowledge. But you need to experience everything yourself first in order to move further, otherwise it's always just a guessing game.

Might as well warn him on speaker cables also.

avg cable how much nowdays.
10 per meter ?

Holy shoot just notice it's u who wrote the whole guide, thank u!

I think point 1.3.2 Nominal Impedance, 1.3.3 Recommended Power and 1.3.5 Sensitivity are the hardest to understand since they all are inter-related, after reading those 3 points again and again I'm still not clear on it.. The main concern is I worry about damaging the AVR and speakers by under or even over powering them due to lack of knowledge..

Can I say if I'm doing a 2.0 (2 channel driven setup), and I pair the Denon AVR-S960H which can do 90 W at 8 Ohms with the Wharfedale Diamond 12.2 which has nominal impedance of 8 Ohms and recommended power of 20~120W, there'll be no risk of under or over powering the speakers? Because the Denon is only doing 90W and 90W is within the range of 20~120W the recommended power of the speaker.

Here are the links for ur easy reference of spec:
https://www.stylelaser.com.my/product/denon...opened-box-new/
https://www.stylelaser.com.my/product/wharf...kshelf-speaker/

If in the future I expand the setup to 2.1, 5.1 or 5.1.2, there will be even less power since the power is now shared among more speakers, will it cause under power issue?

Also, if the 2 polar of the speaker cable connectors touch, it'll short circuit the AVR/speaker? I just found it out holy cow   

avg cable how much nowdays.
10 per meter ?

Ya! That's what i thought too, since music is more complex compared to a movie.

Intro which high performance snake cable so cheap?

The frequency range of a bookshelf is often much more limited than their tower counterpart, so you'd run into physics limitation before you run out of power anyways. That's why I said there's not much more that needs to be said about them in regards to power.

Tower speakers are more efficient than bookshelves because often times, they have MORE drivers than a bookshelf. Let's take the Diamond series as an example again. The Diamond 12.2 is a bookshelf, 2 ways. The Diamond 12.4 is a tower, 3 ways. Because the 12.4 doesn't need to have just ONE single woofer doing all the work from 35hz to 1khz, that eases out the load between 2 woofers instead. The 12.4 also has much larger cabinet to move air and thus it's easier to reproduce higher volumes. That is the reason why it is more efficient than a bookshelf.

I'll have to emphasize again, the bass region is what eats up power the most. Very, very few speakers can do full range 20hz-20khz. That's why individual subs are essential. Earlier you mention you're afraid that your receiver may longer cope with multiple amount of speakers when you move up the multi channel chain. That could be an issue yes. But active subs will take care of that, it will ease your receiver from having to deal with the bass region (which again is where the majority of the power goes to).
So you see, subs aren't just for the boom-boom factor, not at all. Subs are the FOUNDATION of your system. If you have good bass, you are already more than half way there to good music.

You don't have to buy everything at once if budget is an issue. This is a journey, not a buy once and forget it hobby. So it's fine to have your AVR, pair of bookshelfs, and some cables to start off with. What the others and I have been telling here is just knowledge. But you need to experience everything yourself first in order to move further, otherwise it's always just a guessing game.

your pattern might similar to mine.
aim speaker that remain 4khz (more high is even better) and drop 8khz slightly

i think SSJBen had reply most of your question d.
for nominal impedance you do not have to worry too much about it as most of the modern AVR does support 4 ohm to 8 ohm. You will be fine with it. Sensitivity like i said is just a reference value like the car fuel consumption. For reference but dont 100% trust it. Its not the end of the world if you are getting a 85db sensitivity speakers.

Can I say if I'm doing a 2.0 (2 channel driven setup), and I pair the Denon AVR-S960H which can do 90 W at 8 Ohms with the Wharfedale Diamond 12.2 which has nominal impedance of 8 Ohms and recommended power of 20~120W.. i would say it will be totally fine.. even you are driving it with 200W amp you will be fine also.. Unless you are cranking at 90% and above of the vol all the time..

I see, so as long as i be careful with the volume any combination will be fine.. thank you~

If in the future I expand the setup to 2.1, 5.1 or 5.1.2, there will be even less power since the power is now shared among more speakers, will it cause under power issue? Yes. the common problem with entry level AVR. When you connect more speaker you feel the vol drop. You need to play louder. Thats why its recommended either:
1) buy a cheap avr and connect 2.1 for starting and upgrade it when you are changing into 5.1.2 or 7.1.2 or 7.1.4
2) invest on the best avr you can afford, you can start with X3600h/X3700h. The reason i recommend this is due to its preout function that would allow you to add external amplification in case you need it in future. Any model lower than that doesnt gives preout function. Another thing is about is MultEQ XT32 with gives better sound enhancement over its lower end siblings.

Hmm i checked the price... RM6k for AVR alone, mayb upgrade next time...   

Also, if the 2 polar of the speaker cable connectors touch, it'll short circuit the AVR/speaker? I just found it out holy cow   
connector normally dont touch but your bare wire will touch and short circuit.. some AVR got the self prevention mechanism what will shutdown if it detect short circuit. use banana plug to prevent this.. i also have similar issue when i started my HT journey.. imagine so many speakers wire connecting to AVR and being placed so close to each other..

avg cable how much nowdays.
10 per meter ?

All my cables in HT room using wireworld SCP 14awg cable now a days. RM15 per meter.

Only the LCR I'm using own DIY with Canare 4s11 for bi-amping.

fyi movie audio is more complex than music audio.

u see dolby & dts put so much audio research.
outdoor records live scene + atmos ceiling effect etc very complex
many cpu (out of human ability) need to calculate.

music got who? nobody want to do research
mostly indoor record silent studio. 1 instrument 1 track only

i have installed my side surround after 1 year i bought the speaker.. and damn, side surround is like adding so much diff to the whole setup. due to the small room i have, the side surround is like half a meter to my main listening position, and it is around 1-1.5feet above the listening ear level, but pointing at listening position. i felt the sound abit like coming out from a higher place. maybe need to tweak the speaker volume lower?