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> Engine Oil Reviews/Technical talk v2, Everything Automotive lubricants/fluids

Quazacolt
post Aug 6 2014, 10:52 AM

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QUOTE(kalvinkhoo @ Aug 6 2014, 09:53 AM)
oh so the number in-front actually is for the temperature? hmmmm... noob in old i hope u dont mind me asking.
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read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil#Grades
izso
post Aug 7 2014, 07:59 AM

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QUOTE(kalvinkhoo @ Aug 6 2014, 09:53 AM)
oh so the number in-front actually is for the temperature? hmmmm... noob in old i hope u dont mind me asking.


Aiyo.. go google "bobtheoilguy". His explanation is the easiest to understand.

I wrote something about this sometime ago in ZTH : http://www.zerotohundred.com/newforums/fea...ngine-oils.html

It's not quite temperature. It's the viscosity index when cold. The other number after "w" is the viscosity index at 100 degrees Celsius (usually means warmed up engine temp, not quite but close).

There's a lot to learn about engine oils. Do your research and buy based on your budget.

empire23
post Aug 7 2014, 01:02 PM

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I've got 4 cans of 300V on the way to service my Evo and a bottle of Penrite 10Tenths for flush with Liquimoly flushing fluid. Only because I've neglected to service the car for a bit due to being onsite and my housemates driving it around for a bit.

Also doing the 1500km break in service for my BMW. But this time with strong fluid that resists crankcase dilution because the N54 and N55 are very famous engines for utterly destroying even the toughest engine oils due to the ultra high pressure direct injection it uses. This might be a tough one to figure out.

Quazacolt
post Aug 7 2014, 06:08 PM

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QUOTE(empire23 @ Aug 7 2014, 01:02 PM)
I've got 4 cans of 300V on the way to service my Evo and a bottle of Penrite 10Tenths for flush with Liquimoly flushing fluid. Only because I've neglected to service the car for a bit due to being onsite and my housemates driving it around for a bit.

Also doing the 1500km break in service for my BMW. But this time with strong fluid that resists crankcase dilution because the N54 and N55 are very famous engines for utterly destroying even the toughest engine oils due to the ultra high pressure direct injection it uses. This might be a tough one to figure out.
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what are you planning for the BMW? considering "1500km break in service", new car? the dealer don't restrict outside EO?
empire23
post Aug 7 2014, 06:33 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Aug 7 2014, 06:08 PM)
what are you planning for the BMW? considering "1500km break in service", new car? the dealer don't restrict outside EO?
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BMW M cars come with requirement for a 1500/1600km oil and filter change. They call it the "break in" service.

BMW does recommend Castrol, but I can use any oil I want them to put in as long as it meets requirements. But the challenges of a direct injection engine are unique due to fuel dilution causing viscosity loss. There are a lot of recommendations for Renewable Lube's BioSyn made for the Audi RS4 engine (another DI engine), but I rather not ship 20 litres of lube on freight.

Also reading the N55HP's technical documentation also shows that under low loading, the Bosch ECU allows the engine oil temp to rise to about 130 Celsius in order to thin itself and lower parasitic drag, plus it also engages lean burn which also increases the cylinder temperature. It saves fuel, but remember that for every 5 to 10 celsius, your oil oxidization increases by 100 percent.

I'm not sure what to consider that is locally available. Might have to switch to Shell V-Power which has lubricity modifiers in the time being while thinking about it.
Quazacolt
post Aug 7 2014, 08:56 PM

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QUOTE(empire23 @ Aug 7 2014, 06:33 PM)
BMW M cars come with requirement for a 1500/1600km oil and filter change. They call it the "break in" service.

BMW does recommend Castrol, but I can use any oil I want them to put in as long as it meets requirements. But the challenges of a direct injection engine are unique due to fuel dilution causing viscosity loss. There are a lot of recommendations for Renewable Lube's BioSyn made for the Audi RS4 engine (another DI engine), but I rather not ship 20 litres of lube on freight.

Also reading the N55HP's technical documentation also shows that under low loading, the Bosch ECU allows the engine oil temp to rise to about 130 Celsius in order to thin itself and lower parasitic drag, plus it also engages lean burn which also increases the cylinder temperature. It saves fuel, but remember that for every 5 to 10 celsius, your oil oxidization increases by 100 percent.

I'm not sure what to consider that is locally available. Might have to switch to Shell V-Power which has lubricity modifiers in the time being while thinking about it.
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ah that's quite similar to almost every car brands in Malaysia although ours on 1k km instead.

I wish the same can be said about the bolded part in Malaysia. Dealers here are just wanting excuses to void your warranty sad.gif

wow nice technical details on the N55HP; I *think* the 4B1x engages similar operation considering the AFR from dyno charts. Not to mention the engine idles really hot and if you're speeding (could be just more ram air to cool the engine compartment) it cools down quite a bit more. Not sure on the oil temps since i haven't gotten my OBD scanners and i don't think on stock there's oil temperature sensors. (will have to verify on this at a later date)

btw if you're looking for lubricity modifiers, have you tried out Torco's RCL? that could be just what you're looking for, at probably much cheaper price comparing to v power daily.
empire23
post Aug 8 2014, 08:05 AM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Aug 7 2014, 08:56 PM)
ah that's quite similar to almost every car brands in Malaysia although ours on 1k km instead.

I wish the same can be said about the bolded part in Malaysia. Dealers here are just wanting excuses to void your warranty sad.gif

wow nice technical details on the N55HP; I *think* the 4B1x engages similar operation considering the AFR from dyno charts. Not to mention the engine idles really hot and if you're speeding (could be just more ram air to cool the engine compartment) it cools down quite a bit more. Not sure on the oil temps since i haven't gotten my OBD scanners and i don't think on stock there's oil temperature sensors. (will have to verify on this at a later date)

btw if you're looking for lubricity modifiers, have you tried out Torco's RCL? that could be just what you're looking for, at probably much cheaper price comparing to v power daily.
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The 4B11 is generally a bit hot, you'll generally see a rise in temps after you slow down after a long run. I don't believe the engine runs lean as the 4B11s are notorious for running overly rich to keep the cylinders cool. That's why you tend to get a lot of extra performance if you try and tune them with the "advance and lean till knock" method. I don't recall an oil pressure and temp sensor on the 4B11, so you might have to drill and tap your own.

I think chucking in Torco's RCL which is oil soluble will compound my issues further, plus I believe it is for a MPFI engine rather than GDI. I think the best solution is either to get a fuel like V-Power that resists being absorbed into the oil or an oil that resists absorption. I'd prefer the oil solution, because I'm so cheap I usually fill the car up with RON91 Ethanol blend if I don't plan on going fast laugh.gif


Quazacolt
post Aug 8 2014, 09:25 AM

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QUOTE(empire23 @ Aug 8 2014, 08:05 AM)
The 4B11 is generally a bit hot, you'll generally see a rise in temps after you slow down after a long run. I don't believe the engine runs lean as the 4B11s are notorious for running overly rich to keep the cylinders cool. That's why you tend to get a lot of extra performance if you try and tune them with the "advance and lean till knock" method. I don't recall an oil pressure and temp sensor on the 4B11, so you might have to drill and tap your own.

I think chucking in Torco's RCL which is oil soluble will compound my issues further, plus I believe it is for a MPFI engine rather than GDI. I think the best solution is either to get a fuel like V-Power that resists being absorbed into the oil or an oil that resists absorption. I'd prefer the oil solution, because I'm so cheap I usually fill the car up with RON91 Ethanol blend if I don't plan on going fast
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oh ya now that you mentioned that, on stock form it does run as rich as 11.x ish on the AFR upon high rpm/high load laugh.gif

good point on the RCL, probably something i should take note if i am moving on to GDI in the future thumbup.gif

btw:
user posted image
or https://plus.google.com/+JasonLimQuazacolt/posts/hm8NizaeCB7 if you're having difficulty viewing from my website

will write more but first gotta goto office

=edit=
may check out http://www.blackstone-labs.com/report-explanation.php for explanations on the report

Anyways regarding the comments about fuel, because they encourage the oil sample to be taken hot (eg: driving the car for 10-20minutes/up to temperature) to avoid fuel dilutions that may affect the test results.
If that cannot be done and a cold sample have to be taken (eg: oil change at proton SC that lets you sit from morning 8am to 12pm sweat.gif) then it should be mentioned to BSL so that they may take note of the potentially higher fuel % found in the oil sample instead of pointing it out as an issue.

for my case as it turns out to be a non issue as fuel was less than 0.5% biggrin.gif

As for the metal parts, sure, it's nothing unusual as per the report comments, however i did spent quite a lot on additives (namely LM Ceratec and nanoextreme ws2) expecting that wear would be on the absolute minimum considering the claims of respective additives.
This lab report either proves me wrong or i'm just expecting way too much laugh.gif
Granted yes, sub 10k km is still a very early stage of an engine's life and there are still some breaking in of components, however looking at the universal average on metal wear it's just disappointing.

AMSOIL clearly proven it's claim, 6.6TBN after 8500 km of very hard driving, constant red lines when some engine oil even STARTS OUT with around 6 TBN (even torco SR1 that's also APN SN/GF5 certified: http://www.torcousa.com/technology/TDS_SR-1%20MotorOil.pdf )
Their 25k Miles claim does ring some truth in it wink.gif

Hell, look at the calcium value, that's generally detergent/dispersant commonly used in EO additives.
Most EO (unless you're on diesel/HDEO) don't even start out that high much less a 8500km used EO thumbup.gif

Viscosity is ROCK SOLID, hell it's even thicker than it's original datasheet: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2880.pdf considering contaminants and fuel dillution that generally thins out EO viscosity when subjected to heat (likewise thicker on cold, hence morning/cold start sluggish performance on some vehicles on certain engine oils wink.gif )

i do suspect it could be a case of diluted additives into the oil, but who knows. (the nano ceramic particles are quite viscous, not sure if the viscosity test took that into account)

Now for this interesting bit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese#Manganese_in_gasoline
i'm wondering if it's due to the use of RCL, Octane boosters (used amsoil dominators and torco's accelerator) or it comes as a natural additive in our Petronas Primax fuel.

Hell, it could even be the Techron additive i used previously although http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbth...t&Number=273248 & http://www.techron.com/what-is-techron/proven-science.aspx doesn't seem to indicate so.

i'll stop on those car "drugs" for the time being (never used any after my service/oil drain) and see how it turns out on next lab test wink.gif

Also, here's BSL (Amanda) take on EO additives:
QUOTE
Some additives do not show up in our tests. For example, we don't test for tungsten as part of our normal test, so we might not see that additive in our sample.

We don't normally see any real benefit to running additives, but we don't really see any problems from it either, at least not in our tests.

I'm not sure what the additive companies use as their base stock because we're not able to test the base stock in our lab.

Our general theory on additives is that the oil already has additives present, so there's not really any benefit to adding more stuff when the oil is already formulated very carefully. But then again, we haven't seen any evidence that they hurt anything, so if you like them, then by all means, keep using them! Maybe once you see your oil analysis results, you'll start to experiment by using additives sometimes and not other times, just to see how the engine does with and without them.
Original question from me:
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Aug 8 2014, 03:07 PM
kalvinkhoo
post Aug 8 2014, 09:39 AM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Aug 6 2014, 10:52 AM)
QUOTE(izso @ Aug 7 2014, 07:59 AM)
Aiyo.. go google "bobtheoilguy". His explanation is the easiest to understand.

I wrote something about this sometime ago in ZTH : http://www.zerotohundred.com/newforums/fea...ngine-oils.html

It's not quite temperature. It's the viscosity index when cold. The other number after "w" is the viscosity index at 100 degrees Celsius (usually means warmed up engine temp, not quite but close).

There's a lot to learn about engine oils. Do your research and buy based on your budget.
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thats awesome thanks guys!
empire23
post Aug 8 2014, 07:14 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Aug 8 2014, 09:25 AM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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I usually don't use any additives and unless there is a specific needs for them or a technical reason behind them. For now the only thing I plan on using is concentrated spray intake cleaner for my BMW and only because it is a GDI engine. I agree with BSL's assessment that the EO is already formulated for to meet its product target.

As for the Evo X I've bought some intake cleaner for it as the EGR and PCV system would have slightly dirtied the turbocharger and intake manifolds after 70000km so I thought why the hell not. Also got a can of LiquiMoly Detox, the industrial strength and more potent version of the standard 300ml LiquiMoly Engine Flush.

user posted image

Probably just mineral turps but it's concentrated and comes in a huge 500ml bottle, so I figured "why not?" laugh.gif
Quazacolt
post Aug 8 2014, 07:22 PM

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QUOTE(empire23 @ Aug 8 2014, 07:14 PM)
I usually don't use any additives and unless there is a specific needs for them or a technical reason behind them. For now the only thing I plan on using is concentrated spray intake cleaner for my BMW and only because it is a GDI engine. I agree with BSL's assessment that the EO is already formulated for to meet its product target.

As for the Evo X I've bought some intake cleaner for it as the EGR and PCV system would have slightly dirtied the turbocharger and intake manifolds after 70000km so I thought why the hell not. Also got a can of LiquiMoly Detox, the industrial strength and more potent version of the standard 300ml LiquiMoly Engine Flush.

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Probably just mineral turps but it's concentrated and comes in a huge 500ml bottle, so I figured "why not?" laugh.gif
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oo never came across with that... do feedback after you've tried it tongue.gif
although, since your bmw is fairly new, i suppose you wont be using it any time soon?

btw that table yours? interesting looking shells - hunting or shooting range?
empire23
post Aug 8 2014, 07:33 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Aug 8 2014, 07:22 PM)
oo never came across with that... do feedback after you've tried it tongue.gif
although, since your bmw is fairly new, i suppose you wont be using it any time soon?

btw that table yours? interesting looking shells - hunting or shooting range?
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Don't think I'll be using it on the BMW soon. Just the Evo X and maybe the R34 once I undo the damaged those car thieves did to it before the police recovered it. Going to change the tyres as well on the X to Goodyear Eagle F1 Directionals. No need anything really sticky, the car has been relegated to supermarket duties.

Yeah the table is mine. Loading my magazines as I have a shooting competition on Sunday.
Quazacolt
post Aug 8 2014, 07:36 PM

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QUOTE(empire23 @ Aug 8 2014, 07:33 PM)
Don't think I'll be using it on the BMW soon. Just the Evo X and maybe the R34 once I undo the damaged those car thieves did to it before the police recovered it. Going to change the tyres as well on the X to Goodyear Eagle F1 Directionals. No need anything really sticky, the car has been relegated to supermarket duties.

Yeah the table is mine. Loading my magazines as I have a shooting competition on Sunday.
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eh you've mentioned the recovery of the R34 very long time ago (over a year already or not?) still working on the repairs?
and rofl Evo X for supermarket duties laugh.gif

notworthy.gif on those bullets.
good luck on your competition thumbup.gif
empire23
post Aug 8 2014, 07:44 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Aug 8 2014, 07:36 PM)
eh you've mentioned the recovery of the R34 very long time ago (over a year already or not?) still working on the repairs?
and rofl Evo X for supermarket duties laugh.gif

notworthy.gif on those bullets.
good luck on your competition  thumbup.gif
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Yeah. Still working on the repairs because the car is quite low on my priority list and is now sitting in storage. I am worried about the wear and what oils I should use. I might just buy an engine crane and rebuild it by hand. Engine building is surprisingly simple when I leaned it working at my previous job.

Fastest supermarket car ever! Danish made Intrax Suspension with SuperPro bushes, DBA 5k rotors, Full Race manifold, Tomei exhaust, Cosworth IC and Intake kit and larger MHI Turbo.

Worst of all is my parents plan to stay here for a year. I plan to just give them the X because it is the only "auto" I have tongue.gif
Quazacolt
post Aug 8 2014, 07:54 PM

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QUOTE(empire23 @ Aug 8 2014, 07:44 PM)
Yeah. Still working on the repairs because the car is quite low on my priority list and is now sitting in storage. I am worried about the wear and what oils I should use. I might just buy an engine crane and rebuild it by hand. Engine building is surprisingly simple when I leaned it working at my previous job.

Fastest supermarket car ever! Danish made Intrax Suspension with SuperPro bushes, DBA 5k rotors, Full Race manifold, Tomei exhaust, Cosworth IC and Intake kit and larger MHI Turbo.

Worst of all is my parents plan to stay here for a year. I plan to just give them the X because it is the only "auto" I have tongue.gif
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do update/new thread on your engine rebuilding if it ever happens biggrin.gif

and words cannot describe all my jelly notworthy.gif
Klemann C
post Aug 10 2014, 02:24 AM

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In dilemma whether should try 5w-50 since my car current EO is due...using 0w-40

Is it advisable switch from 0w-40 > 5w-50?
Both are Mobil oil..

This post has been edited by Klemann C: Aug 10 2014, 02:27 AM
Quazacolt
post Aug 10 2014, 02:34 AM

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QUOTE(Klemann C @ Aug 10 2014, 02:24 AM)
In dilemma whether should try 5w-50 since my car current EO is due...using 0w-40

Is it advisable switch from 0w-40 > 5w-50?
Both are Mobil oil..
*
What's your dilemma?
Klemann C
post Aug 10 2014, 02:46 AM

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All the while been using 10w40, 0w40 since I'd got my car.
Engine feedback respond is quite positive since my car engine is 4G93..as you know this engine valve lifter prone to noisy & loud due to different EO grade used.
Quazacolt
post Aug 10 2014, 05:36 AM

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QUOTE(Klemann C @ Aug 10 2014, 02:46 AM)
All the while been using 10w40, 0w40 since I'd got my car.
Engine feedback respond is quite positive since my car engine is 4G93..as you know this engine valve lifter prone to noisy & loud due to different EO grade used.
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so you got too much performance/good FC and want to lower that by going for thicker EO?
efaceninja
post Aug 10 2014, 08:53 AM

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QUOTE(Klemann C @ Aug 10 2014, 02:24 AM)
In dilemma whether should try 5w-50 since my car current EO is due...using 0w-40

Is it advisable switch from 0w-40 > 5w-50?
Both are Mobil oil..
*
QUOTE(Klemann C @ Aug 10 2014, 02:46 AM)
All the while been using 10w40, 0w40 since I'd got my car.
Engine feedback respond is quite positive since my car engine is 4G93..as you know this engine valve lifter prone to noisy & loud due to different EO grade used.
*
why you want to change to xw-50 oil? is it because want extra protection? or.. you expect that it will give quieter noise? or.. the foreman keep asking you to take xw-50?

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