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> Engine Oil Reviews/Technical talk v2, Everything Automotive lubricants/fluids

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empire23
post Aug 5 2014, 08:14 PM

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I like the fact that this new threat is more geared towards fluids and lubricants in general. There are a lot of fluids that make a car tick and EO is just one of them and thus having a decent pinned thread to discuss them is definitely a good thing.
empire23
post Aug 7 2014, 01:02 PM

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I've got 4 cans of 300V on the way to service my Evo and a bottle of Penrite 10Tenths for flush with Liquimoly flushing fluid. Only because I've neglected to service the car for a bit due to being onsite and my housemates driving it around for a bit.

Also doing the 1500km break in service for my BMW. But this time with strong fluid that resists crankcase dilution because the N54 and N55 are very famous engines for utterly destroying even the toughest engine oils due to the ultra high pressure direct injection it uses. This might be a tough one to figure out.

empire23
post Aug 7 2014, 06:33 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Aug 7 2014, 06:08 PM)
what are you planning for the BMW? considering "1500km break in service", new car? the dealer don't restrict outside EO?
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BMW M cars come with requirement for a 1500/1600km oil and filter change. They call it the "break in" service.

BMW does recommend Castrol, but I can use any oil I want them to put in as long as it meets requirements. But the challenges of a direct injection engine are unique due to fuel dilution causing viscosity loss. There are a lot of recommendations for Renewable Lube's BioSyn made for the Audi RS4 engine (another DI engine), but I rather not ship 20 litres of lube on freight.

Also reading the N55HP's technical documentation also shows that under low loading, the Bosch ECU allows the engine oil temp to rise to about 130 Celsius in order to thin itself and lower parasitic drag, plus it also engages lean burn which also increases the cylinder temperature. It saves fuel, but remember that for every 5 to 10 celsius, your oil oxidization increases by 100 percent.

I'm not sure what to consider that is locally available. Might have to switch to Shell V-Power which has lubricity modifiers in the time being while thinking about it.
empire23
post Aug 8 2014, 08:05 AM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Aug 7 2014, 08:56 PM)
ah that's quite similar to almost every car brands in Malaysia although ours on 1k km instead.

I wish the same can be said about the bolded part in Malaysia. Dealers here are just wanting excuses to void your warranty sad.gif

wow nice technical details on the N55HP; I *think* the 4B1x engages similar operation considering the AFR from dyno charts. Not to mention the engine idles really hot and if you're speeding (could be just more ram air to cool the engine compartment) it cools down quite a bit more. Not sure on the oil temps since i haven't gotten my OBD scanners and i don't think on stock there's oil temperature sensors. (will have to verify on this at a later date)

btw if you're looking for lubricity modifiers, have you tried out Torco's RCL? that could be just what you're looking for, at probably much cheaper price comparing to v power daily.
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The 4B11 is generally a bit hot, you'll generally see a rise in temps after you slow down after a long run. I don't believe the engine runs lean as the 4B11s are notorious for running overly rich to keep the cylinders cool. That's why you tend to get a lot of extra performance if you try and tune them with the "advance and lean till knock" method. I don't recall an oil pressure and temp sensor on the 4B11, so you might have to drill and tap your own.

I think chucking in Torco's RCL which is oil soluble will compound my issues further, plus I believe it is for a MPFI engine rather than GDI. I think the best solution is either to get a fuel like V-Power that resists being absorbed into the oil or an oil that resists absorption. I'd prefer the oil solution, because I'm so cheap I usually fill the car up with RON91 Ethanol blend if I don't plan on going fast laugh.gif


empire23
post Aug 8 2014, 07:14 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Aug 8 2014, 09:25 AM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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I usually don't use any additives and unless there is a specific needs for them or a technical reason behind them. For now the only thing I plan on using is concentrated spray intake cleaner for my BMW and only because it is a GDI engine. I agree with BSL's assessment that the EO is already formulated for to meet its product target.

As for the Evo X I've bought some intake cleaner for it as the EGR and PCV system would have slightly dirtied the turbocharger and intake manifolds after 70000km so I thought why the hell not. Also got a can of LiquiMoly Detox, the industrial strength and more potent version of the standard 300ml LiquiMoly Engine Flush.

user posted image

Probably just mineral turps but it's concentrated and comes in a huge 500ml bottle, so I figured "why not?" laugh.gif
empire23
post Aug 8 2014, 07:33 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Aug 8 2014, 07:22 PM)
oo never came across with that... do feedback after you've tried it tongue.gif
although, since your bmw is fairly new, i suppose you wont be using it any time soon?

btw that table yours? interesting looking shells - hunting or shooting range?
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Don't think I'll be using it on the BMW soon. Just the Evo X and maybe the R34 once I undo the damaged those car thieves did to it before the police recovered it. Going to change the tyres as well on the X to Goodyear Eagle F1 Directionals. No need anything really sticky, the car has been relegated to supermarket duties.

Yeah the table is mine. Loading my magazines as I have a shooting competition on Sunday.
empire23
post Aug 8 2014, 07:44 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Aug 8 2014, 07:36 PM)
eh you've mentioned the recovery of the R34 very long time ago (over a year already or not?) still working on the repairs?
and rofl Evo X for supermarket duties laugh.gif

notworthy.gif on those bullets.
good luck on your competition  thumbup.gif
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Yeah. Still working on the repairs because the car is quite low on my priority list and is now sitting in storage. I am worried about the wear and what oils I should use. I might just buy an engine crane and rebuild it by hand. Engine building is surprisingly simple when I leaned it working at my previous job.

Fastest supermarket car ever! Danish made Intrax Suspension with SuperPro bushes, DBA 5k rotors, Full Race manifold, Tomei exhaust, Cosworth IC and Intake kit and larger MHI Turbo.

Worst of all is my parents plan to stay here for a year. I plan to just give them the X because it is the only "auto" I have tongue.gif
empire23
post Aug 12 2014, 06:46 AM

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QUOTE(phobian @ Aug 11 2014, 09:37 PM)
300v 15w50 for your 4B11T?

For a good 60k kms, I was happy with TorqNM's VM155 15w50 until my friend decided to close his business. Currently running on Synergie 6100 15w50 and not really happy with it.
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That's 20 weight higher than what Mitsubishi recommends. Unless you're driving Le Mans 24hrs or some form of endurance racing with elevated temperatures with a requirement to maintain very stable oil pressures, that's too heavy and you'll never get the temps high enough for the oil to pass through the squirters and journals at the right rate.

Essentially if you don't drive it hard enough, an oil at that weight will wear your engine faster. Also being a MPFI engine, you won't have problems with dilution, which means your oil weight more or less stays the same. 15W is quite thick upon start up and thus unless there a strong ester or metal "clingy" additive, you will experience more wear upon start up as Mitsubishi recommends a maximum of 5W all year round for summer conditions with 0w for winter.
empire23
post Aug 12 2014, 11:54 AM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Aug 12 2014, 11:18 AM)
and there you have it!

ps: AFAIK proton recommends 10w40 for the inspira so... rolleyes.gif
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That's within the range of Mistubishi's recommendation but 10W is as thick as you'd go upon startup if you want acceptable engine wear. That's I usually don't go any higher than 5W. 40 weight is quite heavy but still within the 10+- rule of thumb I use.

But going 50 is outside that rule and thus the oil would have a seriously hard time squeezing past those journals and tiny oil passages.

Anyways ordering 8 litres of Motul DCTF now. Nearly 200 dollars or 600 ringgit. Need to service the Getrag DCT in the car as well. Filter oso mahal.
empire23
post Aug 12 2014, 12:13 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Aug 12 2014, 11:59 AM)
4B11T maybe, 4B10/4B11 recommended is 0w20 and it's +20 heavier.
it's a NA econ box afterall wink.gif

hmm 8 liters for rm600 (75/l, somemore things at Australia seems a lot more expensive in comparison) doesn't seem all too bad.
i'm paying like rm50/liter for Motul's ATF 1A
seem like the way to go if i'm letting go of lubegard platinum additive. That, and my favorite Caltex ATF-J price hike doh.gif (maybe i spread the word too much on LYN and caltex got wind of it, like Techron concentrated additive)
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I think that's the new recommendation but it isn't due to a technical concern, it is because Mitsubishi had to satisfy the CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) for most of its cars sold and a lighter oil helps it do that. Proton doesn't need to satisfy CAFE laws in the US.

The Evos don't have a renewed recommendation because CAFE is sales weighted. Meaning the cars that sell the most are the most affected.

Thus I'd try both 0W-30 and 0W-20 and get UOA analysis done on them to determine which is best for what. As you have no turbo to contend with, but your clearances might be more/less due to many factors as the 4B11T uses Mahle's forged hypereutectic pistons in a 2618 alloy. But being within the range you can't go wrong.

I usually buy all my DCT lube from the US or Europe. Too mahal here. Motul DCTF is nearly double that price I buy local. If I buy Mitsubishi DiaQueen SSTF-1 (rebranded Castrol Transmax Dual), it is 500 dollars for 8 litres from Mitsubishi.
empire23
post Aug 12 2014, 06:33 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Aug 12 2014, 12:19 PM)
aye that's pretty much my reasoning on sticking with the lightest viscosity within Mitsubishi's range.

My UOA did show a bit high wear despite the additives, but hey who knows if they are the ones causing trouble instead? lol
then again the lab guys weren't concern about the wear i'm experience due to the engine being very new and i do trash it very hard.

btw once i can confirm on some figures i'll post my latest dyno...
it's as you said, the ecu seriously did richen itself insanely despite the richest value on the remapped is 12.8 AFR
OBD already shows commanded AFR being 11.5-12 so it definitely due air filter stuck or air starvation... i actually double checked the drop in box to confirm there's no dead rat sitting in there  rclxub.gif

ah that pricing is not from AUD? then yea it is rather pricey, though being in the limited DCT market, i guess it cant be helped sad.gif
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You'll have high wear for your first UOA and it progressively gets lower as everything fits in. As for your tuning I'd suggest sitting down with a WBO2 sensor and tuning up everything after a few pulls.

If you're going rich, I'd check the knock value and see if it is the ECU compensating for knock. Also check your ignition time. I believe that investing in a Tactrix OpenPort 2.0 cable for logging while you do your WOT pulls might be a wise investment.

QUOTE(phobian @ Aug 12 2014, 03:51 PM)
[email protected]&R Autocare Glenmarie carries Motul DCTF. Cant recall the exact price, but was told its lesser than RM100 if I recall correctly. If my 20L pack of HKS cannot reach in time, its either Motul DCTF or Millers.

Well noted and thanks for the heads up on Mitsubishi's recommended grade of engine oil.
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Motul DCTF is about 25 dollars a bottle over the internet, I'll buy it and it'll probably be here once I get back from site. Hopefully. The filter isn't too hard to find as there's an equivalent Ford part number for it.

I just cleaned the Evo today and wiped all the leather down with cleaner and conditioner, Kyrtoxed all the rubber seals and essentially left it in top condition. If I come back in 3 weeks and the car is dirty, somebody's gonna get hurt real bad.
empire23
post Aug 12 2014, 07:40 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Aug 12 2014, 06:46 PM)
definitely will need to save up for the tuning equipments... everything don't come cheap and at the end of the day one would wonder if it's even worth it for a puny 100hp 4B10 lol...
I'm actually thinking of something like a scooby for my next car, but that's something to be explored maybe 7 years later or if i strike lottery or something since i just started out with my new car laugh.gif

btw, the ECU also compensate knocking not only via ignition but AFR as well? damn that could explain the commanded AFR values despite the mapping specified 12.8 to be the lowest value.
i do know that the ignition advance did not went as high as i had on that previous screenshot i @ ping'd you that other day

much thanks for the info bro, that definitely help solved a few mysteries.
maybe next dyno i'll go drug up the car to prevent knockĀ  rolleyes.gif
though, i either wasn't sensitive on the knocking, or the knock sensors/compensation was done so perfectly it totally slipped past me laugh.gif

btw prepping the supermarket car for the parents? lol
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Well the Tactrix OpenPort can be used with a lot of vehicles. Subaru included and so can the WBO2 sensor.

As for the ECU compensating, well, it's an unknown quantity at this moment as you're only editing stuff via the CANbus, the logic is still up to the ECU itself and that's the hard bit. Just like how the Evo X switches between 3 maps, nobody knows how the interpolation on map selection is done by the ECU, we just try our best to mod around it.

Best you can do is log things and see how it affects other variables. And of course take what I say with a grain of salt, I'm no expert on Mitsubishi ECUs or any car based ECUs for that matter. Although if you need help with GM DELPHI, E-Controls and other industrial ECUs, I can help laugh.gif

My parents say they want to come in December. I oso say ok lah, but I wanted to clean the car up before I serviced everything. One of those syiok sendiri things. Diff, transfer case, engine, power steering, brake and gearbox oils all changes with a fresh set of plugs and with a very shiny car. Feels good mang.

This post has been edited by empire23: Aug 12 2014, 07:42 PM
empire23
post Sep 3 2014, 04:40 PM

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Reorganized my oils and everything into a proper shelf in the corner of my room.

user posted image
empire23
post Sep 3 2014, 04:51 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Sep 3 2014, 04:43 PM)
notworthy.gif  notworthy.gif  notworthy.gif
those metal can 300v packaging look damn nice lol

our plastic bottles looks kinda plain sweat.gif

=edit=
high5 on megs/turtle wax tongue.gif
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I think the plastic bottles are the older Double Ester technology, I used to get those. The new stuff that comes in a can is called EsterCore.

Most fluids I hantam and use as required, then restock, the only thing I skimp on is the Castrol SRF Racing. 340 ringgit for 1L bottle. When feeling cheap I use Penrite SIN, Motul RBF660 or ATE Super Blue.

I don't detail the car much these days. I'm not home very often.
empire23
post Sep 5 2014, 08:53 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Sep 3 2014, 05:14 PM)
Hmm i've been recommended on ATE brake fluids, how are they btw?
not too interested in the super blue racing fluids, just their ultra low viscosity SL.6 intrigues me:
http://www.ate-na.com/www/ate_us_en/themes.../bf_sl6_us.html

it being DOT4 and still able to have better temperatures/viscosity rating and yet still being cheaper than motul DOT 5.1 i've just recently purchased to bleed my brakes for this upcoming Sepang...
haven't come across them locally though, so still looking around the internet/options.

well my detailing products are just sitting there for the most part... i mean the last time i washed my new car (or any car for that matter lol) was months ago sweat.gif
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ATE's SuperBlue and Type 200 are pretty good. The SL6 is ATE's offering for high performance driving but I've never used it before as Superblue isn't that much more expensive. Have used Superblue on the Evo X previously but preferred the pedal feel from Castrol's React SRF. Otherwise they're pretty damned close.

Yeah I hardly detail these days, just an autowash and a vacuuming when I get back and before I leave for site. Just serviced the Evo today, she feels good to drive and the engine runs as it should with the 300V 5W-30, flushed it with LiquiMoly Engine Flush as well but might use a light weight flushing oil the next time around.

This post has been edited by empire23: Sep 5 2014, 08:54 PM
empire23
post Sep 7 2014, 04:59 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Sep 6 2014, 04:24 AM)
hmm in regards to pedal feel, would it's viscosity property be it's major contribution?

assuming so, would you prefer thinner or thicker viscosity?
i have a personal preference for lighter viscosity in almost everything, and in regards to brakes, the braking feels so much sharper. Not to mention more precise clutch controlling as the brake/clutch shares from the same reservoir/fluids.

will definiftely check out castrol, they should be easier to get around here i'd reckon?
i had a choice for motul's RBF and DOT5.1, the pricing was as you said (for the ATE anyways) damn similar, only opted the DOT5.1 in the end because of the much lighter viscosity especially on cold starts slow/half clutching.

btw any reasoning on avoiding engine flush and opting for light weight flushing oil? which sort of flushing oil would you be referring to? most hdeo seems very thick in viscosity from the top of my head.
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Personally I feel that the majority contribution to pedal feel is compressibility, viscosity is less important. What I look for ultimately are the wet and dry boiling points, wet being the most important as it determines the stability of the fluid in the long term and its ability to function when subjected to real world conditions. I'm not worried about cold starting temps because it primarily acts as a hydraulic fluid.

ATE's fluids tend to last 1 or 2 track days due to their formula being less able to reject the effects of moisture but it is well known that Castrol's SRF Racing will only need 1 or 2 changes per season. Also the wet boiling point is about 100 degrees higher.

My logic behind my preference for a flushing oil (my definition is : Oil used as an intermediary to flush rather than a purpose made flushing oil) is simply because if I'm going to put new expensive engine oil in, it is probably better for it to go into a cleaned engine, free from any old leftovers. So I'll probably use some cheap oil and filter, give it a hard drive and then service it quickly with the much more expensive 300V and high perf filter.


empire23
post Sep 8 2014, 07:10 AM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Sep 8 2014, 01:03 AM)
i see, so overall it would be a deal of trial and error i guess? (what fluid provides what sort of compress-ability/pedal feel)
my experience from switching over to the 5.1 (not even a full drain, merely bled the brakes and top up with the 5.1) is that the clutch feel during cold starts are very precise and doesn't "lag". as i lift of the clutch gradually the engagement is very precise compared to previous, either the car barely moves and if i lift off more i'd over do it and the horrible "manual transmission jerks " will surface as the rpm dipped too low.

SRF = http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPD...RF%20Racing.pdf ?
the viscosity on both cold/100c is almost double against bosch/motul's 5.1 fluids laugh.gif

i guess this make sense then? it's a bit hard on the layman/consumers if there's no actual compress-ability tests/data spec to compare with sad.gif

I see i guess that does make sense on the flushing part. At least you won't have any left over engine flush that *may* deter the performance of your new engine oil.
thanks for the insights as usual bro thumbup.gif
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I usually attribute the lack of bite in clutch during cold starts to the friction material of the clutch itself rather than the fluid for clutch actuation. My remedy is to simply feather it for 5 seconds until the material heats up. But I guess it might be different in a Mitsubishi CJ based car as both brake and clutch share the same reservoir. My old R34 had independent reservoirs.

The SRF is more viscous but it is an ester based fluid rather than a polyglycol one. Thus the pedal feel is spongier due to compressibility being higher. Castrol have obviously tweaked the formula to limit this issue greatly, but it will be slightly different to your standard high performance based poly fluid. But otherwise its performance under stress is extremely good.


empire23
post Oct 7 2014, 08:00 AM

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Getting my absurdly expensive 8 bottles of Motul DCTF for the Evo X. Only 280 dollars inclusive of shipping. Farkin mahal. I haven't even bought the filter yet for the transmission.

Considering draining the BMW's transmission and replacing with Redline 75W90 NS GL-5 Gear Oil as very fast shifts into certain gears seems rough and hard on the synchros. Other than that there doesn't seem to be many issues either way.
empire23
post Oct 7 2014, 02:15 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Oct 7 2014, 02:04 PM)
going to be replacing my redline MTL as well... this time running without additives for a change.

happen to get them cheap on yesterday's SMART event at one Utama for RM48/quart (regular pricing ranges between rm55-65/quart)
https://www.facebook.com/1Utama/posts/10152316405381689

swept their last 4 bottles of MTL when they were closing at 8pm lol.
probably replacing the gear oil after Sepang, after more wear is induced and then 1 shot drain all of the wear/shavings
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Well it is usually good practice to drain after a stressful event, so it makes good sense.

I've been reading around and it seems for DI cars, a lot of people in the know when it comes to oil chemistry swear by this stuff http://www.renewablelube.com/gasoline.html

Might just give it a try as it is said to be extremely resistant to fuel dillution.
empire23
post Oct 9 2014, 07:22 AM

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QUOTE(OC4/3 @ Oct 9 2014, 02:19 AM)
Why you don't want to stick to OEM Diaqueen DCT oil??
DCTF better then Diaqueen ah??
Jacks Transmission US tested and found Diaquen the best eh
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Because it is 50 bucks a litre. Which is somewhat unjustified for a car that is only driven 3 times a month.

The OEM Diaqueen SSTF is merely a rebadged Castrol BOT341/Transmax Dual, but it's a lot harder to find.

Plus I might be selling the X to fund a nicer car at the end of the year.

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