I wonder about suicide in military/strategy aspects. We all know of warriors who choose to take their life instead of being forced to betray their king.

It's how the person arrive to insanity, that's the precedent I'm talking about.

No I'm not talking about physical or material precedents (as in assets or financial stocks, etc) but soul aspect of the person.

Well, as I said, a person does not have to be suicidal or even have symptoms of insanity. He may be weak that's all. If that person did not face financial ruin or something, he would not be driven to insanity or suicide. My point is that there does not need to be any prior precedent building up which you are claiming in order for a person to commit suicide or be driven to insanity. A Single drastic incident can do that. Ok, I made my point.

Ahh, okay, maybe this point.

How is it, that the person becomes weak, how he arrive at being weak?

Is it through years of self condemnation, for example? Maybe, maybe not, depending on circumstances, his upbringing, many variables.

But How a person reacts today depends on what is being fed to his mind prior to today.

That is my point of what is the precedent.

Well, yes, a Single drastic incident can change people in an instance, for example road rage. But I always question, what is the person's philosophy in life that lead to the rage.

Could it be that He view himself untouchable with a high sense of pride? That kind of upbringing could lead to what happened. This is another example of precedent.

And you did asked me whether I've encountered any critical boiling point in my life, the answer is yes. I know I've snapped before and it's because of anger. That's the thing I'm trying to explain.
How we live our lives (what we feed on in thoughts, emotions, etc) determines our next course of action even if it's a snap moment.

Well, a person can be weak just because he never experience failure in his life. So, this very experience would cause him to be weak. But then you really cannot argue that there was any procedents leading to him just snapping.

People have a different threshold for pressure. Some people can take it, some people cannot. Just the same as some people feel more pain then others.

Look at Moses. He is a man of God. Look at what he did under pressure. He whack his rod twice even though God told him not to. When someone is under pressure, he can do funny things. And I am pretty sure Moses is not a good example of a person who has bad thoughts and emotions. He just could not control himself during the spur of the moment that's all.

Now I would argue that if a person knows God, he would perheps be able to handle such critical shocks better, but then as shown in my example of Moses, even he succumbed to pressure.

This post has been edited by sylar111: Jun 23 2014, 05:50 PM

This is getting a bit off topic, from suicide to snap anger. We can always call this off to agree to disagree.

I think what causes suicide has more to do with giving up on hope and what causes anger is a snap of stress aggravation.

Moses had many weakness like most of us, among them, lack of confidence, insecure, can't speak well, fearful, etc.

But that's not the point. Getting to know God under the Old Testament Law requires a tall order. It requires perfection and No one is able to fulfil it perfectly because it hinges on own's strength, thus in the word of Apostle, we do the evil we want not and do not the good we want.

The Failures of Moses, along with others like Abraham, even Judas has theological reasons, too wide a topic to discuss at one go.

Hi pehkay,

But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. - Matt 8:12

Is this verse what you meant?

while i'm aware of a 1000 year millennial kingdom & believe that those saved before that, will rule as kings & priests alongside Christ during this period, i'm astounded by the fact that there will be further needed training

I believe that in this life, some Christians sin less & some sin more.
I believe that Christ will reward us at the Bema Seat Judgement accordingly( Wood , Hay , Stuble verse ).
I believe all saved Christians are overcomers.
I do not believe that we will be rewarded & placed in some sort of ranking system. Granted, some will be given bigger responsibilities but the rewards will be more in the form of spiritual rewards for scripture says ,

However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him 1 Cor 2 : 9

Bema Seat Judgement is a rewards ceremony. Different from the Great White Throne Judgement. If my interpretation of the chronology of events is correct, the Bema Seat Judgement takes place before the millenial kingdom commences. We would also have been given an incorruptible body which is no longer able to succumb to sin. So why would we still have need for further training? I believe that we as Christians are refined & matured at our own pace, depending on how God wishes to mould us. Once we are translated, the process of sanctification would have run its course would it not?

Besides, we still have an eternity to learn more about God after the Old Earth & Old Heaven passes away

p.s. Sylar pls dun so fierce ahhh like how u r in the other sections

Wah, you all really only come out during near midnight ah? Oh good, you are familiar with some of the verses. And you are correct in that it is not a matter of eternal salvation. We can start with your second verse (1 Cor 3:12).

Although those believers whose Christian works are not approved by the Lord at His coming back will be saved, they will be saved so as through fire. Through fire surely indicates punishment.

"If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward" (1 Cor. 3:14). If he doesn't built with the Triune God (gold/silver/precious stones), then no reward? What will this meant then if all receive reward?

If this is true, we will problems [lots of] with including the verses you mentioned:

1) But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. - Matt 8:12

2) In Revelation, the word was spoken to the church, not to unbelievers, that there will be overcomers, a remnant (Rev 2-3).

3) Matt 18:23 "settle accounts with his slaves". Slaves definitely are not unbelievers. Verse 34, "And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed." How can we explain this? This is the Lord's dealing with His believers at His coming back. If we do not forgive the brother who sins against us, we will be disciplined by the Lord until we forgive him from the heart, i.e., until we repay all that is owed. Then the Lord will forgive us. This is forgiveness in the kingdom. This implies that if we do not forgive a brother from our heart today, we will not be allowed to enter into the kingdom in the coming age.

4) 2 Cor 5:10 "For we must all be manifested before the judgement seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad."

5) Also, Paul's metaphor of running the race to gain the prize. It won't make sense if he thinks that he has the reward already. Before writing Timothy, he did mentioned that he hasn't got the reward, always forgetting behind and looking forward. How can we reconciled this?

5a) There are five aspects of the crowns. The crown, a symbol of glory, is given as a prize, in addition to the Lord's salvation, to the triumphant runner of the race (1 Cor. 9:25). In contrast to salvation, which is of grace and by faith (Eph. 2:5, 8-9), this prize is not of grace nor by faith, but is of righteousness through works (Matt. 16:27; Rev. 22:12; 2 Cor. 5:10). The believers will be recompensed with such a reward, not according to the Lord's grace but according to His righteousness.

The New Testament speaks of the believers being rewarded with five different kinds of crowns in the future.

In 2 Tim. 4:8 we have the crown of righteousness (2 Tim. 4:8). "The crown of life" (Rev. 2:10). "The unfading crown of glory” (1 Pet. 5:4). "They may receive a corruptible crown, but we, an incorruptible" (1 Cor. 9:25). "Joy or crown" (1 Thes. 2:19; Phil. 4:1).

And lot more verses from Hebrews, Matthew that is frequently used by our dear Arminianism brothers will be problematic if we adhere to this interpretation.

For 1 Corinthians 2:9, the context is we are enjoying this reality now in our Christian life to those who love Him. We don't have to wait till then . Though I can't imagine applying to the future that since the context is present.

The Bible is silent on what kind of disciplines as I don't think there is a ranking [fallen concept - no such things]. But, based on the parable of the ten virgins (maturity in the divine life (oil in the vessel)) and slaves [faithfulness in service]. If we are not perfected in this short age, this 1000 years, the Lord will make sure all defeated believers matured in His life and to be faithful in service. This is just one aspect. We just don't analyse it too much when there is not much. But we can be sure, there will be a judgement on the believers.

You are right that it is different from the great white throne judgement.

Shortly before the beginning of the great tribulation (which coincides with the second half of the last week in Daniel), the rapture of the overcoming believers to the heavens, including the rapture of the dead overcomers—the man-child (Rev. 12:1-11)—and the rapture of the living overcomers— the firstfruits (14:1-5), will take place. The remainder of the believers (the majority) will be raptured at the very end of the great tribulation. The rapture of the overcoming believers, especially of the man-child, will precipitate war in heaven, and the devil will be cast down to earth to form an evil trinity with Antichrist and the false prophet. After all the believers have been raptured, they will appear before the judgment seat of Christ to be judged not concerning eternal salvation (a matter which is settled once for all and which is eternally secure from the time we believe and are regenerated) but concerning reward or punishment during the age of the kingdom. Those who are approved by the Lord Jesus and receive a reward will enter into the Lord's joy and reign with Him in the millennial kingdom; those who are disapproved will not simply lose the reward but will also experience some kind of dispensational punishment in "the outer darkness" (Matt. 8:12; 22:13; 25:30).

The problem is not with sin but with the maturity of life. We can have a resurrected body but within like Paul mentioned, we are still not renewed, sanctified, transformed, conformed or glorified in our soul. We are still infants. The divine life that we have never experienced in our daily salvation (Phil.) will not magically appear This is why, the foolish virgins do not have EXTRA oil (The Spirit) in their vessel (soul). They have only oil in their lamp (spirit - Proverbs) = they are genuinely saved. The Lord is not marrying a child Bride

P.S. Unless you genuinely really want to know, the matter of the kingdom reward solves both problems inherent in Calvinism and Arminianism. Do bring it up if you like to know more so that I won't waste anyone's time if you are not interested.

This matter of the judgment of the believers and of their being hurt by the fire is neither Calvinism nor Arminianism. According to Calvinism, once we are saved, we are saved forever, and there can be no further problem. In a sense, Calvinism is correct, for once we are saved, we are saved for eternity. However, we should not say that there can be no problems. There is the possibility of being burned in the fire. According to Arminianism, some may be saved in the morning and lose their salvation that night. Their salvation goes up and down like an elevator. Neither Calvinism nor Arminianism is according to the pure word of the Bible. The Bible reveals that we are saved for eternity, but that after we are saved, we need to overcome every sinful thing. If not, we shall be disciplined, punished. If you do not repent and confess your sin, but stay in adultery, in the next age you will be put into the fire and burned, not for eternal perdition, but as a dispensational punishment.

This is righteous! Otherwise, I can go and enjoy the world knowing that I have already obtained the reward. It really doesn't make sense ... and I can't convince anyone of that or myself

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jun 24 2014, 09:43 AM

This post has been edited by giovanna: Jun 24 2014, 01:53 PM

I will just make comment on your last statement la.

A true Christian does not sin because he realize that there is no profit in doing that and also out of love for God and also because he desire the truth. He will not continue in his sinning ways just because he is forgiven.

As for the rest. I really do not want to waste my time.

Ok just 1. The virgins who did not enter were not saved because the bridegroom told them that he did not know them. If they were saved, the bridegroom will not make that remark. You seriously have a writing fairy tales do you.

Calvanism or Arminianism only explains 1 aspect of the Gospel. It does not explain everything. Of course they are not pure word of the bible because they are just human interpretations.
And you do not even understand calvanism. Even though calvanism preaches OSAS. But every calvanist knows that just because a person appears to be a Christian, it does not mean that he is saved and also a true Christian examines himself.

Actually, following God under the Old Testament is based on faith and not really on one's own strength.

Hebrews 11.

As for Romans 7, it does not states that following the law is a tall order, but the reason it's the sinful nature that prevents the apostle from following it.

<shake head>

Let me give you the benefit of doubt and only address the minimalistic fact to your statement "If they were saved, the bridegroom will not make that remark".

Matt 7

21 Not every one who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who does the will of My Father who is in the heavens.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, was it not in Your name that we prophesied, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name did many works of power?

23 And then I will declare to them: I never knew you. Depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.

This should make thing consistent with the parable.

Unless this is fairy tale too. Then, it is quite scary with today's Christian to just do away with verses that did not fit your theology.


BTW, still awaiting your proof of verses, though ...

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jun 24 2014, 12:27 PM

The fact that he never knew them, means they are not saved.

And your point being?

So what are you trying to prove by bring up this set of verses. Most Christian knows that in this context, the people who called Lord,Lord are not actually saved.

Amazing.

This post has been edited by sylar111: Jun 24 2014, 12:34 PM

The target audience are believers Why would we be workers of the Lord if we aren't?

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jun 24 2014, 12:37 PM

"workers of lawlessness". Are you sure they are workers of the lord.

Ok forget it. Nvm. You win.

I win for what?

At least, be open to consider a bit lar. It doesn't hurt to and will make you "cut straight" the Lord's word better or know the text better.

If you are serious, you would have given a better explaination of why that verse means what you are saying instead of making remarks like this.

I rest my case. You can continue with whatever you do.

You may want to read Galatians chapter 3.

The law is not based on Faith. (Galatians 3:12) Those who live by them, will have to live by them all the way to the end.

Your earlier point was "Getting to know God under the Old Testament Law requires a tall order. It requires perfection and No one is able to fulfil it perfectly because it hinges on own's strength, thus in the word of Apostle, we do the evil we want not and do not the good we want."

And I just shown you a passage that proves otherwise.

Now I know the law is not based on faith. But this is not the point of discussion right?

In a way, it's related.

It's a tall order, in the context of Galatians 3:12, those who wants to live by them, have to make sure they can all the way.

Knowing God through that way, is really impossible if not frustrating.

Hebrews 11 demonstrated a more excellent way of living the new life which is the way of Faith, meant to be revealed and lived under the New Covenant.

All the Patriarchs of God, Man and Woman mentioned in the Hall of Faith were commended for the Faith but they were unable to receive the promise of the New Covenant. (Hebrews 11:39) because all of them were locked (bound) to the Laws of God. (Galatians 3:23-25) until the coming of our Lord Christ Jesus.

God does not want us to know him through the law but through his Son (Grace and Truth) (John 1:17)