Well. It's possible for a Christian to commit suicide. But then what I believe is that as you said, it is most likely a sudden moment of weakness whereby the Christian does not have time to contemplate. If a Christian did have time to contemplate, it would be very much more difficult or even impossible because he would be able to consult with God through prayer. The final end of God for A christian would not be suicide and I believe that if a Christian has more time to contemplate, he would not end up in suicide.

Well Yes, Thank God it is Christ Jesus that's the one who will change us.

It's like this.

1) If you see yourself that is going to need to be changed and you tell yourself, you need to repent and walk righteously with all the will power you can muster, You will fail.

But


2) If you look to Christ Jesus and acknowledge; HE IS THE ONE who has cleansed you, has made you righteous, you WILL walk in obedience. Noticed the past tensed?


Obedience to God doesn't come through this chest beating, remorseful type of repentance and crying at the Altar. That type of repentance is still very much in the Flesh type of repentance, meaning it's Man's way.

What is God's way? God's way of repentance, happens in the change of mindset.

It comes through being humbled in knowing that God is good, God has cleansed even when you fall into Sin. Yes, you guys heard me right.

You may want to contemplate what I just said. May take few more time reading before it sink into the soul and spirit.

God Bless.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 23 2014, 09:46 AM

Hi guys,

Since we're on the topic of science vs religion (psychiatry VS Bible teachings).

I've always wondered and questioned those that say that the verses of the Bible is absolute even though present day science has proven them wrong.

A very good example would be back in the olden days when some scientifically minded dude said the world was round and the earth rotated around the sun and not vice versa. He was shunned and threatened by religious authorities and everyone around him because they were taught that whatever the church says "It is right". Saying the earth was round was blasphemous and a sin and a one way ticket to hell.

But fast forward many years later, when the world has indeed been confirmed to be round and rotates around the sun, the religous guys just went quiet. Thanks to non-religious guys, we know we have 24 hours in a day, 365 days and leap years, birthdays, better navigation accross the earth, etc etc. and from there, today we have Google Maps and Facebook

Don't you think that we ought to have a balance between science and religion? Can't we balance psychiatric treatments with God's teachings?

What do y'all think?

I'm very passionate about interpreting Bible verses, I don't think there's any verses that actually says Earth is flat.

Show me if there is, and I can prove you where it s understood wrongly.

And for the record, it has never been Science Against Bible Teaching.

The Bible is not a manual about Science anyway, so to say we need to strike a balance is totally off tangent.

I've always said this but nobody seems to understand. God allow Man to advance in knowledge, to discover how thing works, Man calls it Science but that does not mean Science nullify the existence of God because God exist and operates outside the confinement of time and space.

To say that God must be confine to the discovery of Science, it totally diminish the concept of God. That is not God. I don't know how to put that in better perspective.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 23 2014, 10:48 AM

Suicide doesn't happen by momentary lapse of weakness. What I mean is, it doesn't happen just like that.

It starts way, waaay before that.

It's accumulated through a period of pain, disappointment, depression, lack of understanding, hurt, etc.

Could be years, months before that.

Most likely, suicide tendency happen when the person gave up hope, God, everything.

From there, it starts.

Is there? Are you referring to Galileo? If yes, the topic was not on that the world is flat.

Erm ... Our 24-hour day comes from the ancient Egyptians who divided day-time into 10 hours they measured with devices such as shadow clocks, and added a twilight hour at the beginning and another one at the end of the day-time. And believe me, they were really religious

I think there is no balancing needed as science is only a tool. It cuts both ways. I am familiar with quantum mechanics, general relativity, evolution and string theories [well as a layman], and it can only describe a physical universe as best as it can be [but still with its problems] but cannot infer / implied anything absolutely ... ironically that will be the philosophy of science. Yet what it describes of our physical universe, I find it really marvellous and at best confirming creation declared in shadow of the attributes of the Creator

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jun 23 2014, 11:31 AM

Erm ... are you responding to Sophierre or me? Oh well, ignore this if you are responding to her. I always that this problem with quotes.

My understanding is a little different as I do not believe in "going to heaven", and thus a myth . I believe we have a higher destiny than that based on the revelation in the Bible.

The response to her was premised on some earlier sharing I had with her. That, even though our salvation is secure, the reward of the kingdom is not (1 Cor. 3:15). If a believer is not matured in the divine life in this age, he will have to go through dispensation punishment in the millennial kingdom where the overcoming believers will enjoy the rewards as co-kings. The defeated believers will be "trained"/"discipled" so that they are will be matured after 1000 years.

But then, this is just a supporting line.

Actually suicide can happen almost instantly.

Very simple example is an Economic crisis. You see people commit suicide almost immediately. You cannot really argue from this stance that they were depressed before that. It's the confusion that happens when they lose almost all their wealth and goes into bankruptcy.

I believe that under this kind of confusion, it is possible that a Christian can actually commit suicide because they are at such a confused as well as panic state, they really have no time to seek for God's guidance.

On the other hand, I think it is almost impossible for a Christian to actually commit suicide under the context you are talking about because they have a lot of time to contemplate on what to do next and if they are real believers, God will definitely be able to give them direction. It is actually during those time that faith becomes stronger for real christian because they realize that they cannot depend on themselves but they have to surrender totally to God.

I know that your denomination belong to watchman nee or something which I really do not conider part of conventional Christianity or true christianity as a matter of fact.

The bible did mentioned heaven many time and also of the promises that believers will get to heaven at the end. If you do not believe in "going to heaven", then why are you calling yourself christian? Are you mocking God's promises?

I think if God is willing to forgive us, there will be no more sins in his eyes.

The bible never mentioned about what you just said. The bible never mentioned about any training for 1000 years. It only mentions that Jesus will be ruling over here for 1000 years with the saints. As to what really happen(All saints revived?) This one is a theological one and will need to be discussed in other context. But what I am pretty sure is no "training" will be done over that 1000 year time period you are talking about to "unmaturing believers"

Well, reward and punishments are 2 different issue.

Anyway, thanks. But I am not interested in reading fairy tales.

Actually Unknown Warrior. No one ever took him to task before?

This post has been edited by sylar111: Jun 23 2014, 11:53 AM

Actually I would argue that if religion(Christianity) was not revived during the reformation era, the science that we know of today may not even exist.

Sorry, we really cannot balance psychiatric treatments with God's teaching because they are mutually exclusive.

Secondly, the assumption that you are making is that psyhiatric treatment will make the patient better. There are many evidence that this is otherwise actually. If you consider making the patient better as being in a non violent state, then so be it. There has been studies that links psychiatric treatment with mass shootings actually.

I do not see the reason why science should be a greater truth compared to religion. Psychiatry is not really science actually because the effects cannot be reproduce. It is known that a diagnosis for the same patients can differ with different psychiatrist.

God's teaching is totally against psychiatry. So I do not see how they can exist together.

Whether I am of conventional Christianity or true christianity, or of a denomination or not etc, you can always make that statement. But please do substantiate your claims please in the spirit of fellowship. Just because my views on "going to heaven" are not of "mainstream" Christianity, it invalidates me as a believers? Did I not believe in the Triune God? Christ? The Spirit?

"I think if God is willing to forgive us, there will be no more sins in his eyes." Err.. duh!

Am I mocking God's promises? No. Rather I have uplifted it to the uttermost. I am just sharing that the deification of man [but not in the Godhead =- theosis(wiki it)] as the pinnacle of God's salvation as the goal. It is 100000000x better than going to heaven. I cannot even substantiate anything from the Bible on this matter of "going to heaven". Even the unbelievers are laughing at the "unrighteousness" of it.

Do you have anything to substantiate on your claims on going to heaven? Please do not bring up traditions.



This post has been edited by pehkay: Jun 23 2014, 12:38 PM

What I have stated is from the bible which is the real authority. Not your fairy tales.

In fact, I hope I am not the only one who called you out. If the other "brothers and sisters" do not call you out, I think I am out of this thread.

Well, even demons also believe in Jesus Christ. So your point being?

Well, actually yes. Because the bible actually mentioned very specifically that a person who adds or subtracts from the scripture, let them be cursed.

If you feel that you want following the bible is too burdensome or if you want to change your views to cater to the outside world, you can always create another religion.

Sorry friend. I am not using traditions here. I am using the word of God. What are you using?

This post has been edited by sylar111: Jun 23 2014, 12:44 PM

Wow ... just wow

Yeah to you too. You want me to show you that verse that states that? Or you do not really follow the bible?

This post has been edited by sylar111: Jun 23 2014, 12:46 PM

Yeah, in your understanding in the spirit of fellowship. I think we can leave the mudslinging statement like " Or you do not really follow the bible?"

ALL SPIRITUAL MATTERS RELATED TO A CHRISTIAN DEPENDING ON CHRIST

Ephesians 4:13 says, "Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Galatians 4:19b says, "Until Christ is formed in you." God shows us clearly in His Word that all spiritual matters related to a Christian depend on Christ. Whether it is our believing in the Lord, our baptism, or our breaking bread in remembrance of the Lord, everything in our Christian life depends on Christ. All spiritual matters depend on whether or not we have Christ. Any experience in which we do not experience Christ cannot be counted as a spiritual experience in God’s eyes.

GOD'S EYES BEING ON CHRIST

God does not require that His children have a change in behavior or a desire to do good. If God’s children change themselves from being indifferent to being zealous, from not reading the Bible to reading the Bible, from not praying to praying, from not attending meetings to attending meetings, God's heart still will not be satisfied. If we had the right understanding, we would know that our seeking God and our slothfulness in not seeking God are actually the same. From the spiritual perspective, reading the Bible and not reading the Bible are the same. This does not mean that it is not necessary for us to be zealous, to pursue the Lord, to pray, to read the Bible, or to meet. This is not what we mean. We should regularly read the Bible, pray, and meet. However, merely reading the Bible, praying, and meeting does not mean that we are spiritual, for these things cannot satisfy God. What counts and what can satisfy God’s heart is that Christ is in our reading of the Bible, in our praying, and in our attending meetings. Only Christ can satisfy God.

Hence, God’s heart is not satisfied if now we are reading the Bible when formerly we did not. God’s desire is not fulfilled if now we pray when formerly we did not. God’s purpose is not accomplished if now we attend meetings when formerly we did not. This is not the way God’s purpose is fulfilled. God’s purpose is not in our attending meetings, in our being zealous, in our reading the Bible, or in our praying. God’s purpose is in Christ. If we are zealous merely for the sake of being zealous, if we meet merely for the sake of meeting, if we read the Bible merely for the sake of reading the Bible, and if we pray merely for the sake of praying, then in God’s eyes all these things are nothing but religious activities, which can never satisfy Him.

All spiritual matters depend on Christ, not on spiritual activities. The reason why all these activities have some value is that they help us to touch Christ. The reason why reading the Bible and praying have some value is that they help us to touch Christ. The reason why seeking God zealously has some value is that it helps us to touch Christ. However, if we merely have a kind of seeking, zeal, Bible reading, prayer, or meeting—all without touching Christ—these things are merely activities and are merely a religion. What is a religion? When we have a certain kind of action and a certain kind of living in which we seek and worship God without touching Christ, that is called a religion. It is neither spiritual nor pleasing to God because in it we do not touch Christ Himself.

I don't believe suicide happens just like that. Nobody responses like that.

It's not easy to end one's life even though at a very critical stage.

From my observation, there's usually a history prior to this, before arriving at that stage.

Same thing with why people divorce, why people go berserk.

It's usually accumulative day to day experiences of negative connotation that reached an explosion point.

And For sure, spiritually speaking it's either the work or influences of the devil

Why not.

I have even given an obvious example to this.

Are you sure that for most of the people who commited suicide because of financial crisis, they do so because they are in a state of depression.
Or you are just rejecting my example for the sake of argument.

If your case is true, then why is there so many suicide cases whenever there is a financial crisis. How sure that prior to each of the suicide during this period, there is a history that cause each person to commit suicide.

Of course it is never easy to take one's life. But during a financial crisis, the people who are badly hit are at a very critical stage because they have just lost everything in just a moment's time.

Also, any 'history' can be overcomed if a person is in Christ.

Honest Question: Have you ever faced any highly pressured situation whereby you have to provide results even though the odds are against you? If you have not, you will never be able to understand what is it like to be under a real boiler situation.

Ultimately, the blame for any sins lies in the person who commits it.

This post has been edited by sylar111: Jun 23 2014, 04:31 PM

Let me give you an example, prior to that state of depression, the guy may have accepted the condemnation that he's not doing good enough or is good enough for anything.
Even when He does good enough, there could be voice telling him, it's never enough, he got to do better. Just an example.

or

It could be that the said person is already in a financial delima, very critical one, takes an unrealistic gamble to invest the last portion he has and found He lost the gamble


What I mean is, people don't decide to suicide in the next few seconds. There's usually a precedent before it happens.

I know about the first example. I think most of us know about the first example.

And no. During a financial crisis, many of the people who are affected lost everything in a blink of an eye. It's not a gradual thing. Properties or stocks could go down by more then 50+% at 1 time even for safer companies. People go bankrupt overnight NOT because of poor financial decisions but because they did not get rid of their stocks in time. You do not understand how a financial crisis works do you?

As I said why not. Have you ever been in a high pressured boiler situation. Do you even realize the complications of what a person has to go through when he faces bankruptcy. A person can lose his sanity after just one incident. He can become depressed forever after just one incident. You are not aware of that? Just one incident can decapitate a person for life. Even if he did not commit suicide, he may not be able to function normally after that.

This post has been edited by sylar111: Jun 23 2014, 04:58 PM