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 Proton Suprima S

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dares
post Aug 17 2013, 10:49 PM

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QUOTE(SoZa @ Aug 17 2013, 10:41 PM)
I don't understand this whole crony talk

Isn't proton deserve to have its preferred manufacturer?

Like fishmonger sell his fish first to his preferred customer before selling it to other customers
*
Yes, but if the vendor produced poor quality parts, then they should be reprimanded or fired.


SoZa
post Aug 17 2013, 10:52 PM

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QUOTE(ruffstuff @ Aug 17 2013, 10:48 PM)
Jolokia sudah mari.  Ini toyoi versi proton supporter. Hahaha
*
Ooohh toyoi... How much I want to summon him here into fnf and put those 2 together in a cage...

No offence jolokia, toyoi is definitely beneath me
giovanni
post Aug 17 2013, 10:53 PM

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QUOTE(jolokia @ Aug 17 2013, 10:46 PM)
NAZA boy spotted...lol...
*
I am nobody's boy just fyi. I also like Honda Jazz and Peugot 308. I look at cars but I don't buy them cos they are expensive. Trust me if it's cheap I would buy straightaway. The old car that I am using have cellophane tape on its front bumper just to prevent it from falling off.

I was looking at cars when I got back from UK but decided against buying one becos I think they are expensive. That's when I loan an old car from my bro (my current cellophane taped car).
SoZa
post Aug 17 2013, 10:54 PM

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Doubled

This post has been edited by SoZa: Aug 17 2013, 10:55 PM
mystvearn
post Aug 17 2013, 10:54 PM

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QUOTE(giovanni @ Aug 17 2013, 09:21 PM)
No vested interest in Vios in whatever way. I would have bought CKD Honda Jazz myself given the price. I am not buying any new car anytime soon. Am driving a family 16 years old Toyota second handed junk at the moment. Just saying the cars here are priced higher becos of our national cars that's all. I am not willing to buy new car to feed the cronies. Just my two cents
*
If you can tell me which car not related to cronies, I too will buy that car, if it is worth it rolleyes.gif

All cars related to crony laa, only big or small crony. In bolehland, no crony inside car company = no business. ETC also got crony in it. Honda also with DRB. UMW Toyota. All other small brands, Naza sapu. Even when Naza started, did not have crony, now you see got crony marriage laugh.gif Also, if outside car company don't have crony also want crony because it makes paperwork "easier".

QUOTE(giovanni @ Aug 17 2013, 09:31 PM)
If you care to read it properly, you will know that there is such a thing called subsidies/rebates which is enjoyed by our national carmakers for their so called R&D work. Essentially they pay less excise duty. Furthermore, non-national carmakers priced their cars higher in Malaysia market to garner the premium feel which adds to the relatively higher prices.
*
Rebates gone long time ago. R&D grants. Normal. Everyone does it. Japan does it. German does it. heck, even UK does it to keep the car manufacturing plants in UK.

If you want to compare proton to other car makers, then you also need to compare the achievements at the same timeline. Cannot compare something 30 years old, with something 50 years old or 70 years old. That is an unfair comparison. Of course Toyota, Ford, or Kia will always win. They been doing it since ages past. If you compare against Chrysler, I say proton is in better shape. Same way, you cannot compare China cars with Proton. Proton will win. Proton more mature. I don't see tons of people buying Cherry even though cheaper and sometimes more features than dugong.

If you compare Kia/Hyundai to Toyota, at the same timeline, then Kia more successful because it is now seriously challenging Toyota for market share.

I think this topic should help explain a bit.

https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/2802804/+20

I'll tell you a well known secret. All governments which have car making plant are at the mercy of the car company. You see, when multinational companies enter a country saying "we will setup manufacturing plant here", it means that: the government of that country has given them 0% or very low tax of any kind for a set amount of years. Some go as far as giving them incentives to come.

Why is this done? If a company makes shop here, people get jobs. When people get jobs, they can eat, not go rioting like Greece. When people have jobs, politicians are happy as people will vote for them again. So country loose income from tax, but in essence the money lost there, is given indirectly in jobs to people. If gomen stop giving incentives, car makers will just close shop and open shop at another country. Simple as that.


QUOTE(SoZa @ Aug 17 2013, 09:59 PM)
I don't know nuts about designing cars laugh.gif I do believe Azlan O. Is a good designer, he is only being hold back by proton's part manufacturer capability.

My only criticism about Azlan O. Is his obsession with rising belt line, it screw the whole car porpotion. If preve has lower boot it will look smarter. The rising belt line also cause preve has poor rear visibility like many preve user complaint. The rear windscreen look like a peep hole. Proton not providing rear view camera are not helping either

Anyway from safety POV, bigger metal area means manufacturer can put more reinforcements for side impact protection
*
This one, unavoidable. All new cars will be higher. No more Honda Prelude low type car. Part of it is to due with pedestrian safety. The front of the car height must be about waist area, so that when hit pedestrian, bones don't break. Part of it is also for accessibility. Getting out of a prelude is harder for a 70 year old person than say a myvi.

By making a car higher also you get more car volume. In fact even the new Swift is higher than old Swift. Same with mini. Looks almost same, but higher due to safety requirement. Can make the car lower, at a cost of NCAP stars.

I am afraid that as we go further in the future, we are going to drive cars that will have seating more like dining table chairs, rather than F1 style seating.

This post has been edited by mystvearn: Aug 17 2013, 10:56 PM
lepet
post Aug 17 2013, 10:55 PM

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QUOTE(giovanni @ Aug 17 2013, 10:47 PM)
I have to reiterate on the fact that whatever excise duty imposed on the car will see the car price being inflated to factor this tax in where we, the end users will pay for it. The company might not absorb all of it.
*
still the can give 12 month bonus?? their car is overprice here!!!

if the tax is reduce for toyota, they selling cheaper but still they make very high profit margin doh!!
lepet
post Aug 17 2013, 11:00 PM

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QUOTE(giovanni @ Aug 17 2013, 10:53 PM)
I am nobody's boy just fyi. I also like Honda Jazz and Peugot 308. I look at cars but I don't buy them cos they are expensive. Trust me if it's cheap I would buy straightaway. The old car that I am using have cellophane tape on its front bumper just to prevent it from falling off.

I was looking at cars when I got back from UK but decided against buying one becos I think they are expensive. That's when I loan an old car from my bro (my current cellophane taped car).
*
if you live in uk... for sure you get cheaper car but high personal income tax!!! friend told me they need to pay tax of 50% of annually income (half of your annual income goes to govt)...
giovanni
post Aug 17 2013, 11:06 PM

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QUOTE(lepet @ Aug 17 2013, 11:00 PM)
if you live in uk... for sure you get cheaper car but high personal income tax!!!  friend told me they need to pay tax of 50% of annually income (half of your annual income goes to govt)...
*
Sorry mate you got it half correct only. They have tax brackets like here in Malaysia. If you earn below 32K pounds perannum you are only tax 20% for that amount. If you earn beyond that, your first 32K are taxed 20% and the remainder 40%. 45% for the next band and so on and so forth. So it's not like u get taxed 50% straightaway. Need I say the government services and general benefits are so much better there? (I will leave that for another topic).
giovanni
post Aug 17 2013, 11:08 PM

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QUOTE(lepet @ Aug 17 2013, 10:55 PM)
still the can give 12 month bonus?? their car is overprice here!!!

if the tax is reduce for toyota, they selling cheaper but still they make very high profit margin doh!!
*
Now I don't know about the 12 months bonus thingy. If tax is reduced their profit margin may remain relatively the same cause they don't earn the tax. The gov does.
SoZa
post Aug 17 2013, 11:13 PM

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QUOTE(mystvearn @ Aug 17 2013, 10:54 PM)
This one, unavoidable. All new cars will be higher. No more Honda Prelude low type car. Part of it is to due with pedestrian safety. The front of the car height must be about waist area, so that when hit pedestrian, bones don't break. Part of it is also for accessibility. Getting out of a prelude is harder for a 70 year old person than say a myvi.

By making a car higher also you get more car volume. In fact even the new Swift is higher than old Swift. Same with mini. Looks almost same, but higher due to safety requirement. Can make the car lower, at a cost of NCAP stars.

I am afraid that as we go further in the future, we are going to drive cars that will have seating more like dining table chairs, rather than F1 style seating.
*
I think you got mistaken with ride height and belt line laugh.gif

Belt line is the window line I presumed? Understand? From the side profile you can see the window rises to the boot. The chunky bonnet is unavoidable though for safety reason as your explain. In design talk the high bonnet forces the belt line/window line to increase in height and the boot follows along. This is basically like a by law book in designing cars

And this also causes car nowadays have tapered greenhouse unlike older car that has narrow bonnet yet generous amount of glass

Anyway this is a mass market car, higher ride height would promote better ingress and degress especially to the elders
giovanni
post Aug 17 2013, 11:16 PM

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QUOTE(mystvearn @ Aug 17 2013, 10:54 PM)
If you can tell me which car not related to cronies, I too will buy that car, if it is worth it rolleyes.gif

All cars related to crony laa, only big or small crony. In bolehland, no crony inside car company = no business. ETC also got crony in it. Honda also with DRB. UMW Toyota. All other small brands, Naza sapu. Even when Naza started, did not have crony, now you see got crony marriage laugh.gif Also, if outside car company don't have crony also want crony because it makes paperwork "easier".
Rebates gone long time ago. R&D grants. Normal. Everyone does it. Japan does it. German does it. heck, even UK does it to keep the car manufacturing plants in UK.

If you want to compare proton to other car makers, then you also need to compare the achievements at the same timeline. Cannot compare something 30 years old, with something 50 years old or 70 years old. That is an unfair comparison. Of course Toyota, Ford, or Kia will always win. They been doing it since ages past. If you compare against Chrysler, I say proton is in better shape. Same way, you cannot compare China cars with Proton. Proton will win. Proton more mature. I don't see tons of people buying Cherry even though cheaper and sometimes more features than dugong.

If you compare Kia/Hyundai to Toyota, at the same timeline, then Kia more successful because it is now seriously challenging Toyota for market share.

I think this topic should help explain a bit.

https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/2802804/+20

I'll tell you a well known secret. All governments which have car making plant are at the mercy of the car company. You see, when multinational companies enter a country saying "we will setup manufacturing plant here", it means that: the government of that country has given them 0% or very low tax of any kind for a set amount of years. Some go as far as giving them incentives to come.

Why is this done? If a company makes shop here, people get jobs. When people get jobs, they can eat, not go rioting like Greece. When people have jobs, politicians are happy as people will vote for them again. So country loose income from tax, but in essence the money lost there, is given indirectly in jobs to people. If gomen stop giving incentives, car makers will just close shop and open shop at another country. Simple as that.
This one, unavoidable. All new cars will be higher. No more Honda Prelude low type car. Part of it is to due with pedestrian safety. The front of the car height must be about waist area, so that when hit pedestrian, bones don't break. Part of it is also for accessibility. Getting out of a prelude is harder for a 70 year old person than say a myvi.

By making a car higher also you get more car volume. In fact even the new Swift is higher than old Swift. Same with mini. Looks almost same, but higher due to safety requirement. Can make the car lower, at a cost of NCAP stars.

I am afraid that as we go further in the future, we are going to drive cars that will have seating more like dining table chairs, rather than F1 style seating.
*
The rebate was gone long ago but it was given long enough. In fact local carmakers especially Proton was given a head start (with all previous protective measures) long ago hence they were already not competing on a level playing field so you can't really make a direct comparison in terms on timeline. I do understand that any government would have helped its local carmaker but to the extent of what our gov did previously to Proton, I am not too sure ( I stand corrected on my view). The amount of support given could have put any carmaker on the right track no?

Yes, that's y cronyism makes Malaysians suffer. shakehead.gif


lepet
post Aug 17 2013, 11:17 PM

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QUOTE(giovanni @ Aug 17 2013, 11:06 PM)
Sorry mate you got it half correct only. They have tax brackets like here in Malaysia. If you earn below 32K pounds perannum you are only tax 20% for that amount. If you earn beyond that, your first 32K are taxed 20% and the remainder 40%. 45% for the next band and so on and so forth. So it's not like u get taxed 50% straightaway. Need I say the government services and general benefits are so much better there? (I will leave that for another topic).
*
i would rather be high tax on the car rather than high tax on my annual income...
btw, normally we dont change car every year...
lepet
post Aug 17 2013, 11:24 PM

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QUOTE(giovanni @ Aug 17 2013, 11:08 PM)
Now I don't know about the 12 months bonus thingy. If tax is reduced their profit margin may remain relatively the same cause they don't earn the tax. The gov does.
*
12 month bonus was highlighted by one of the forumer here...

so dont blame proton for higher price of other oem coz even tge tax is reduce, they still make higer profit margin..

This post has been edited by lepet: Aug 17 2013, 11:25 PM
giovanni
post Aug 17 2013, 11:27 PM

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QUOTE(lepet @ Aug 17 2013, 11:17 PM)
i would rather be high tax on the car rather than high tax on my annual income...
btw, normally we dont change car every year...
*
Actually you bought one car it's equivalent to several years worth of tax. Also actually income tax in UK is high because it's welfare state. Meaning, it's being channelled back to the people through a lot of benefits and services.
giovanni
post Aug 17 2013, 11:30 PM

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QUOTE(lepet @ Aug 17 2013, 11:24 PM)
12 month bonus was highlighted by one of the forumer here...

so dont blame proton for higher price of other oem coz even tge tax is reduce, they still make higer profit margin..
*
Sigh...forget it. Move on.
lepet
post Aug 17 2013, 11:38 PM

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QUOTE(giovanni @ Aug 17 2013, 11:27 PM)
Actually you bought one car it's equivalent to several years worth of tax. Also actually income tax in UK is high because it's welfare state. Meaning, it's being channelled back to the people through a lot of benefits and services.
*
benefit to the people...?
may i know what is the price charge to enter govt hospital in uk?
here is only RM1... 90% of medical cost is subsidies by the govt doh!!!

your statement is too general...

This post has been edited by lepet: Aug 17 2013, 11:42 PM
megat89
post Aug 17 2013, 11:45 PM

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QUOTE(lepet @ Aug 17 2013, 11:38 PM)
benefit to the people...?
may i know what is the price charge to enter govt hospital in uk?
here is only RM1... 90% of medical cost is subsidies by the govt doh!!!

your statement is too general...
*
i think uk citizens enjoy the national health service..and it is free of charge if im not mistaken..

This post has been edited by megat89: Aug 17 2013, 11:47 PM
mystvearn
post Aug 17 2013, 11:51 PM

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QUOTE(SoZa @ Aug 17 2013, 11:13 PM)
I think you got mistaken with ride height and belt line laugh.gif

Belt line is the window line I presumed? Understand? From the side profile you can see the window rises to the boot. The chunky bonnet is unavoidable though for safety reason as your explain. In design talk the high bonnet forces the belt line/window line to increase in height and the boot follows along. This is basically like a by law book in designing cars

And this also causes car nowadays have tapered greenhouse unlike older car that has narrow bonnet yet generous amount of glass

Anyway this is a mass market car, higher ride height would promote better ingress and degress especially to the elders
*
Oh that one. My mistake laugh.gif

QUOTE(giovanni @ Aug 17 2013, 11:16 PM)
The rebate was gone long ago but it was given long enough. In fact local carmakers especially Proton was given a head start (with all previous protective measures) long ago hence they were already not competing on a level playing field so you can't really make a direct comparison in terms on timeline. I do understand that any government would have helped its local carmaker but to the extent of what our gov did previously to Proton, I am not too sure ( I stand corrected on my view). The amount of support given could have put any carmaker on the right track no?

Yes, that's y cronyism makes Malaysians suffer.  shakehead.gif
*
Chinese government have stronger protection for their car makers, yet people still go to china because of the market. No car maker in the world has a level playing field. Local makes will always be given prefernce. Japan, Korea will give preference to their cars. BMW price their cars expensive, but their market is export, hence even their people use Kia.

Also, no government in the world is idiotic to put their industry out to die. Lets say you remove everything for Proton, level playing field. Proton compete, but then people still will not buy proton because now can buy cheaper dugong. Why buy proton since dugong cheaper now. Proton dies out like Chrysler. Now, if you are a politician, making policies, how are you going to face 30k odd proton workers (including manufacturing parts, service, etc) saying, because I want cheaper dugong made by JAPS or THAIS, I rather see 30k MALAYSIAN workers merempat. 30k workers got families, got sedara-mara. As stupid as politicians are, they are not that stupid to loose voters.

Same thing with MAS, same with Petronas. Will always get better treatment. Every country does this. If you don't do this, then you yourself will merempat. Lets say, that you have nothing to do with auto industry, working as grocery shop/hardware shop/own business. So now, you have 30k MALAYSIANS jobless, who is going to buy at your shop/use your facilities.

That is why during Malaysian economic crisis, Tun M say-spend spend. IMF idiot say, keep-keep. Logically when in crisis, you keep money to build revenue. However, if money does not circulate, economy will cripple. If everyone stopped going to McD because of crisis for 1 year, that shop will close. When I got the 3 gen's past accord 2.0 year 2000. Honda so desperate, they put in accessories you cannot find now. Bodylex massger, wood trim, parking pole, Vkool, can put downpayment with credit card some more, fog light and some sort of skyactive guard for 5 years. All free included in price. This was still during economic crisis. Then in 2002, economy got better, honda stopped giving bodylex massager, wood trim, parking pole. Even radio also aftermarket. Fog light not included. Seats don't have cloth cover. Forget skyactive.

If you want to get best value car, see which car comes with the most accessories, and balance with the brand value. As I see it, my new current gen 2010 Accord has less stuff compared to the 2000 Accord. Vkool was factory tinted. Now need to go tint yourself. Skyactiv, no more there. Massage seats-can forget it. When car makers are desperate, they put a lot of stuff. That is why cherry got tons of stuff, people still don't buy because brand value worse than proton. Honda, Nissan, Toyota give so little now because people rate the brand value too high. That is consumer's fault.

At the way Toyota, Honda and to an extent Nissan swindling consumers giving little stuff, I don't see my next car will be an Accord. Then again, it may be a rebadge Accord laugh.gif Kia/Hyundai considered good value as they have tons of stuff. I bet you that if Kia/Hyundai are at H, T and N position, they and H, T, and N at K/H position, H, T and N will give more stuff to consumers.

So, in your quest to have "fair and level playing field" for car makers, you are actually not being fair to your own people working in your own country. So i quote Tun M said: "Free trade can be fair, but Fair trade cannot be free". I don't want Malaysia to be like Indonesia with the huge income disparity or like EU and UK now, all bankrupt because all buy from China but China don't buy back from them.

Please read the link I gave and the pages following that. Then got problem ask back. I don't want to write same thing over and over again.

This post has been edited by mystvearn: Aug 17 2013, 11:58 PM
SithBuster
post Aug 17 2013, 11:59 PM

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QUOTE(mystvearn @ Aug 17 2013, 11:51 PM)
Oh that one. My mistake laugh.gif
Chinese government have stronger protection for their car makers, yet people still go to china because of the market. No car maker in the world has a level playing field. Local makes will always be given prefernce. Japan, Korea will give preference to their cars. BMW price their cars expensive, but their market is export, hence even their people use Kia.

Also, no government in the world is idiotic to put their industry out to die. Lets say you remove everything for Proton, level playing field. Proton compete, but then people still will not buy proton because now can buy cheaper dugong. Why buy proton since dugong cheaper now. Proton dies out like Chrysler. Now, if you are a politician, making policies, how are you going to face 30k odd proton workers (including manufacturing parts, service, etc) saying, because I want cheaper dugong made by JAPS or THAIS, I rather see 30k MALAYSIAN workers merempat. 30k workers got families, got sedara-mara. As stupid as politicians are, they are not that stupid to loose voters. 

Same thing with MAS, same with Petronas. Will always get better treatment. Every country does this. If you don't do this, then you yourself will merempat. Lets say, that you have nothing to do with auto industry, working as grocery shop/hardware shop/own business. So now, you have 30k MALAYSIANS jobless, who is going to buy at your shop/use your facilities.

That is why during Malaysian economic crisis, Tun M say-spend spend. IMF idiot say, keep-keep. Logically when in crisis, you keep money to build revenue. However, if money does not circulate, economy will cripple. If everyone stopped going to McD because of crisis for 1 year, that shop will close. When I got the 3 gen's past accord 2.0 year 2000. Honda so desperate, they put in accessories you cannot find now. Bodylex massger, wood trim, parking pole, Vkool, can put downpayment with credit card some more, fog light and some sort of skyactive guard for 5 years. All free included in price. This was still during economic crisis. Then in 2002, economy got better, honda stopped giving bodylex massager, wood trim, parking pole. Even radio also aftermarket. Fog light not included. Seats don't have cloth cover. Forget skyactive.

If you want to get best value car, see which car comes with the most accessories, and balance with the brand value. As I see it, my new current gen 2010 Accord has less stuff compared to the 2000 Accord. Vkool was factory tinted. Now need to go tint yourself. Skyactiv, no more there. Massage seats-can forget it. When car makers are desperate, they put a lot of stuff. That is why cherry got tons of stuff, people still don't buy because brand value worse than proton. Honda, Nissan, Toyota give so little now because people rate the brand value too high. That is consumer's fault.

At the way Toyota, Honda and to an extent Nissan swindling consumers giving little stuff, I don't see my next car will be an Accord. Then again, it may be a rebadge Accord laugh.gif Kia/Hyundai considered good value as they have tons of stuff. I bet you that if Kia/Hyundai are at H, T and N position, they and H, T, and N at K/H position, H, T and N will give more stuff to consumers.

So, in your quest to have "fair and level playing field" for car makers, you are actually not being fair to your own people working in your own country. So i quote Tun M said: "Free trade can be fair, but Fair trade cannot be free". I don't want Malaysia to be like Indonesia with the huge income disparity or like EU and UK now, all bankrupt because all buy from China but China don't buy back from them.

Please read the link I gave and the pages following that. Then got problem ask back. I don't want to write same thing over and over again.
*
Wow, that makes a ton of sense and really enlightening. Your fingers won't fracture typing for so long? can see you're passionate thumbup.gif
mystvearn
post Aug 18 2013, 12:10 AM

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QUOTE(SithBuster @ Aug 17 2013, 11:59 PM)
Wow, that makes a ton of sense and really enlightening. Your fingers won't fracture typing for so long? can see you're passionate  thumbup.gif
*
I have a secret weapon. It is called: Microsoft Ergonomic 4000 keyboard brows.gif . Been using this for 5 years now. I That and my Logitech M705, gives me superman powers laugh.gif

Been using Ergonomic products since Microsoft Comfort 2000. once you use that, so hard to go back standard keyboard. Cannot use ambidexter mouse also, need to be right handed sculptured, if not hands will suffer. I used normal mouse for 3 months, got blister-since my job involves me sitting and using PC a lot. I don't want to get RSI at 50 years old laugh.gif

My philosophy is simple. Don't skimp on material you use to eat, wear and touch and surrounding area. If not will injure yourself. Then you need to spend more money and time on medication stuff which was unavoidable in the first place.

If a car was my home, I would have bought a BMW and slept in it. But a car is outside the house, in the sun, kena bird shit somemore. Kena langgar, calar. Why need to spend that much money on something that still gets stuck in the same traffic jam.laugh.gif

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