procedures are not important....in any case, other than venesection, there isn't any other procedure students will be allowed to do....most places will not allow catheterisation even...

a lack of apprenticeship denotes a poor medical school....apprenticeship is the close observation of how senior doctors think, behave, interact, manage, communicate, mentor etc...and the close observation of how patients progress through the entire encounter with the health delivery team....

factual knowledge is NOT important...

because it is a given in good med schools with carefully selected students, that they WILL have acquired all the necessarily theoretical knowledge freely available in text books and online...because if that is even a problem, you have chosen the WRONG student...

hence in uk, many junior doctors will have already obtained their mrcp part 1 easily within the fy years...with some completing paces in pgy3....

For clinical skills well, we have to do quite abit. It's just that the nurses do them as well and opportunity comes and go depending on patient. So we have to fight for them to be done.

Tbh, I have to agree about how little factual knowledge actually helps.. In a way.
Knowledge is generally something you pick up and experienced over time. It's about knowing what's safe or dangerous and when to seek help it's important.

Yea, many fy1s are doing their part one now haha.

This post has been edited by Jckc: Apr 26 2017, 11:36 PM

Care to elaborate further 'all' the 'hands on procedures' med students in your school 'could' have physically handled as opportunities/circumstances/discretions arise (probably under supervision), granted not all students get exact similar exposures ...........
that's officially/unofficially allowed/permitted by the stake holders (like attending nurses,fully registered medical officers,hospital admin,med schools etc) concerned ?

I'm speculating the extent of 'hands on' involvements (procedures included) during clinical years , single handedly has the greatest impact on the confidence levels, competency, delivery outcomes of a typical FY1/housemen in relation to his/her contemporaries , no ?

Edit:Granted legality and ethics are concerns.

The gmc has guidance on what we must be competent by graduation. (32 in general but my medical school has 8 extra so 40)
http://www.gmc-uk.org/Outcomes_for_graduat...df_61408029.pdf
(its at the last few pages which they have listed)

Its mandatory for students to be provisionally registered with gmc and graduate safely.
( and yes, we SHOULD be observed doing the procedure. However, due to certain simple procedures, such as bp or pulse rate OR time constraint of junior doctors, its always difficult to get someone to supervise you. We always try to do so if we're not comfortable or competent with the skill. For me, im comfortable doing bloods/cannulas/abgs and etc without supervision as long i know my limits as a student and not harming the patient whereas otherwise ill like to get the junior doc to supervise and comment on my technique and etc)

Yes and no imo. Practice makes perfect but as long youre willing to learn and improve throughout your career, you can be on par or be better in them than your peers. (a lot of europe-trained docs do not do much hands on skills so they have to learn from scratch when they work here)

Is it because its a UK based exam that UK graduates have a better success rates than overseas graduates?

https://www.mrcpuk.org/mrcpuk-examinations/...exam-pass-rates

the pass rate of any exam depends on several factors....perhaps summarised into 3 main ones...

1. the knowledge/ability of the candidates
2. the familiarity with the format of the exam
3. the familiarity with the common questions asked

the test attempts to test 1....but 2 can cause lower assessment of 1 due to silly mistakes related to lack of familiarity, improper time allocation etc...3 skews the result up due to foreknowledge...

the mrcp pass rate statistics show that overall uk trainees pass rates are lower then uk graduates...note that uk trainees include significant numbers of non uk graduates working in the uk, including from eu, as well as​ imgs from the subcontinent, africa and the Caribbean....these uk traniees should have the same factors 2 and 3.....therefore, it must generally be a reflection of factor 1....

and that is not surprising, considering how med students are chosen in different countries...

for the all candidates pass rates, this includes exams conducted for non uk trainees, in uk itself, or at several centres in several countries, including msia...and the lower overall pass rates reflect the low rates from that group...this lower pass rate may be influenced by factors 2 and maybe lack of 3....and to some extend, by the additional factor of not being familiar with uk disease patterns and practices...but also likely reflect the poorer quality of the candidates...

hope that explains the statistics....

This post has been edited by limeuu: Apr 28 2017, 12:41 PM

Thanks heaps.
In relation to all other UK med schools, this 8 extra over GMC requirements is considered below or above average ?
Btw, how's MMC,SMC,AMC requirements , if any, compared against GMC's requirements of 32 items ?

Looks like there will be slight changes to physicians' training pathways in the UK. If i understand correctly, CT (2 years) is going to be replaced by IM (3 years).

https://www.jrcptb.org.uk/file/3238/download?token=7KIY308T

this is at proposal stage but will likely go through....a few observations...

1. Interesting uk finally decided to adopt the North american nomenclature of calling gen med "internal medicine"...

2. But they are NOT adopting the american (and some european) system of residency training...but retains the tried and tested general->specific pathway...ie, they expect all physicians to be a competent generalist first...in fact the proposed 3+4 system devotes 4 years to gen med training...

3. this makes the training long...9 years...longer than the american system's 4-6 years...but have shorten the process from the past (12-15 years) and more in line with european standards, and they are still quoting european guidelines, despite brexit...

4. finally, looks like gen med as a specialty is dead...they are not running a pure gen med programme anymore...

lol so cmt has become 3 years in a nutshell.

there always been a acute internal med speciality but people tend to do both general and internal med that it becomes a combined speciality which you can do in 4 years if im not mistaken. (each requires 3 years and then you can spend an extra year to do the other).

2nd last paragraph, page 5 states: "We do not envisage any enthusiasm or role for single specialty accreditation in Internal Medicine alone. A curriculum for training in General Internal Medicine (GIM) alone as opposed to specialty with GIM was not utilised."

Hey guys, I was wondering if anybody here did their medical electives in HKL? Thinking of applying there for part of my electives and I have a couple of questions but am having some difficulties getting a reply from HKL itself!

Factual knowledge is not as important as working attitude, but it is still required.

Some HO thinks statins are anti hypertensive.

Because having high cholesterol and high blood pressure is interchangeable? (I'm no healthcare professional).

But seriously?

actually, a strong foundation in factual knowledge, especially the basic sciences like biochemistry, physiology, pathology etc is crucial in the competent practice of medicine, the basic skeleton upon which is built wisdom from experiences...(there is some debate about anatomy, but that is another matter)...

basic knowledge is always emphasied in all good med schools...but is not normally a matter of concern, and in the past, and still is in countries with well run doctor training systems, it is ASSUMED that all med students WILL have a strong foundation in "factual knowledge"....and indeed, these students are the creme-de-la-creme and have no problem absorbing such knowledge like a sponge...hard work and attitude just add on that strength....

msia (as well as some other mostly 3rd world countries) is unique that this becomes a matter of concern, and this is purely due to the way students are selected...

why is it surprising that mediocre students, who already have problems coping with the generally easy spm exams, until they get b's and c's, should have problems coping with medical studies?....and that they eventually cannot cope with work in real life?....

and needs "hard work" and "working attitude" to COMPENSATE for this lack of knowledge?...

Is it necessary to go for premium service in the application for a Tier 4 visa?

It is pretty expensive at 1,000 pounds. Relative was informed that if not premium service, passport can get lost.

no need...

Not necessary.
Pure fear mongering by the 'agent'!

Current visa should be valid till September/October, right? If I'm not mistaken, CAS will be given by HEE, after official results are issued by the unis. When will final results be available for your relative?

Is it necessary to have the "official results"? Apparently she has made an appointment to see them on
Friday. Relative is pretty independent and does a lot of things on her own and only ask when necessary esp $$$

Understand that fyi is commencing end of July.

Will check with her on the need for premium service. 550 pounds can do a lot more shopping in London.