This is not a sales thread, please do not post any advertise type of post, advertise of service provided including contact.

If want to discuss, discuss it here, not link to others website.

Noted with thanks. However, adding my contact numbers is for those who would like to call me directly for further clarification as I'm not online 27/4 to entertain LYN forumers. Thank you.

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Added on August 13, 2012, 11:18 am
I beg to differ as that is definitely not my intention.
That is to quote the SOURCE, proof of the pudding, not meant to lead others to discuss elsewhere as you assumed. Thank you.

Any such post will be deleted and not welcomed.
As mentioned this is not a sales thread, this is merely a discussion thread.

Quote source is one thing.
But you do not post something like click www.abc....xxx for info. without any discussion in place.

QUOTE(edyek @ Aug 12 2012, 11:17 AM)
Aiyoyo.... Since boss @pateagle say hibah is a gift not promise return. Gift it is...

But why should i buy expensive gold from Genneva rather than normal gold shop?
This is the fourth time i ask the question.....

I buy from Genneva say Rm250 per gram. But i get hibah every month.

I buy from Gold smith shop say Rm200 per gram. I dont have hibah.

So, if I invest in gold, bukan i invest in gold that sell with cheaper price? Or im looking for high price gold investment plus interest returns?

Im confuse...
*

Hi edyek, glad you finally understood -- "hibah is a gift not promise return. Gift it is..." smile.gif

Before I continue, no "boss" here. Just like you and everyone else,
"I am more concerned about the return of my money than the return on my money." — Mark Twain

To continue...
Up to you to buy gold from whoever. The difference is other gold companies don’t offer you Hibah; you only enjoy capital gains if the price of gold (quoted in the international market) appreciates, minus the spread or whatever the other gold traders offer you when you want to sell. It is clearly stated in FAQ section - http://bit.ly/QMebqy

Yes, it can be confusing based on conventional ways of doing business or "investing" mindset. I had a tough time too, had to clear my mind of all I learned to appreciate GENNEVA that is truly out-of-the box thinking. Today GENNEVA's vision has come true and fulfilling their mission as seen at http://bit.ly/QfEIWG ... hence, my sign-off as "Senior Consultant @Work with The World’s Most Innovative Gold Industry Leader" smile.gif

If you seek further clarification, feel free to call me at (xxx) xxx xxxx or text me with your name and phone number, I'll return call as soon as I can.

Meantime, have a blessed GOLDEN week ahead. Cheers! smile.gif

You can buy gold at cheaper spot price rate, like from banks and bank gold investment but do you get returns every month? Bank gold investment is passive investment, ie wait for gold price to go up. How long to wait? What if the price of gold drops? It is obviously not attractive and the banks know it! That is why banks are giving higher interest rates for FD that are tied to the gold "investment".

By buying gold from a bona fide gold trading company, you are actively getting monthly returns regardless of stagnation or reduction in gold price as explained in my posting above.

Hope this explanation will reduce your frustration and suspense in waiting for an answer.

I beg to differ again. I note that you have deleted my reply to edyek below, which does not support your stand  above.
ADDED NOTE: cherroy, much appreciated if you could reinstate the rest of my replies at this thread (if you've deleted them) so forumers following this thread are better informed. Thank you.

Cheers and have a blessed GOLDEN day! 

Pat Lu, (012) 210 4898 or email: goldgoose.my@gmail.com
Senior Consultant @Work
with The World’s Most Innovative Gold Industry Leader
Member, Gold Bullion Entrepreneurs Association of Malaysia (Gold-BEAM)

Yea, please do a service for everyone here. You are the only one in the 'pro genneva camp' doing the right thing 

If you still do not believe in what the authorities said thus far, may I suggest you write to the following bodies for clarification and post up their replies for everyone's benefit.

1. Bank Negara Malaysia
2. Majlis Fatwa
3. PPIM

(Please feel 'compelled' to post your letters to the above 3 bodies in this thread so that we know you meant what you said  )

Calling them you can only get verbal reply and have information only privy to yourself. Post a comment here based on verbal reply between you and the authorities is worthless to the readers

So far, the authorities have spoken up. Consumers have been warned. Now the burden of proof is on Genneva. Until you enlighten us with some written replies from the authorities, I believe most of us here are believing what the authorities said

Hope to hear the good news from you soon 

Just to clarify ar bro - i ingat their "contract" was/is for 3 to 6 months only.
And whenever the contract ends, one has to pay again the new gold price (ie. market *120% to 130%?)?
Wouldn't that mean one keeps paying oneself?
Sorry ar - i'm a bit blur thus just clarifying the process flow and cost/rewards flow and seeking enlightenment 

My 10 months is just an example la. What I meant is you are on the scheme every month for that period in the examples, regardless you have to sell and buy every 3 or 6 months.

You can say that you are getting back part of  the excess money you paid for the gold at retail price but who would share/give part of the profit to you? My example C at 18 months shows the amount of money in hand (from the monthly rebate)[ compared to FD interest for the same period. Does it really matter the money comes from the profit made by the gold company which you had paid? The principal amount is in the form of the gold bar, which you would get back at the same amount when you sell back to the gold company. In FD that same amount of principal you cash out by submitting  your CD certificate. If you still can't see the REAL gain in my examples, I can't help you because I think my examples are pretty clear.

First of all, I called BNM to clarify. Why don't you try it sometime? I have this feeling that even if I post my letters, you will still dispute it. Please, do yourself a favor and call them and hear from them first hand.

Also, please revisit the Persatuan Pengguna Islam Malaysia. They have removed the word haram. http://www.muslimconsumer.org.my/v2/index....news&Itemid=303. However, as usual, they refused to issue an apology. 

I am still waiting for reply from Majlis Fatwa.

Attached is PPIM's previous post that you quoted ...

If this is true, buyer is paying extra 20% to get the 6% discount in 3months. That means (20-6)=14% goto genneva.
But genneva present it very nicely, by just focus on 2% per month, very smart indeed.

After 3 months, if buyer want to continue, he/she have to pay again and than kena slap one more time, another 14% lost.

The figure might not be correct fully, if anyone can chime in to correct me the figures that will be great.

PERSATUAN PENGGUNA ISLAM MALAYSIA

No. 70X Jalan Keramat Hujung, Bukit Keramat, 54000 Kuala Lumpur

No. Tel: 03-425 77 222 Faks: 03-4256 6617 Hotline: 019-359 1000 Laman Web : www.muslimconsumer.org.my

Siaran Media

1/8/12 - PPIM menerima beberapa aduan mengenai skim yang dilakukan oleh Genneva Malaysia Sdn Bhd beralamat di 11-1, Jalan 3/116D, Kuchai Entrepreneurs Park, Jalan Kuchai Lama, 58200 Kuala Lumpur yang mana syarikat terus mengisytiharkan melalui laman sesawang mereka www.genneva-malaysia.com bahawa perniagaan yang mereka lakukan adalah mengikut syariah sedangkan Muzakarah Jawatankuasa Fatwa Majlis Kebangsaan Ke-100 telah dengan jelas mengeluarkan fatwa bahawa Perlaburan Emas Genneva adalah tidak mengikut Syariah.

Kegiatan ini bukan sahaja melibatkan golongan biasa tapi juga melibatkan ramai pelabur VVIP, Yayasan dan syarikat-syarikat besar. Syarikat ini juga tersenarai sebagai syarikat yang tidak diiktiraf atau diluluskan di bawah peraturan dan undang-undang Bank Negara Malaysia. Maka PPIM menggesa satu siasatan menyeluruh dibuat terhadap syarikat ini yang telah mengutip dana dari orang ramai berjumlah lebih 5 billion ringgit dan ianya disyaki mengalir ke luar negara.

Sindiket penipuan terancang ini harus ditangani dengan segera kerana ia mampu mencetuskan pelbagai masalah ekonomi dan sosial yang teruk pada mangsa dan masyarakat. PPIM menyeru supaya semua pelabur yang terlibat dalam perlaburan haram ini segera menuntut semula wang perlaburan mereka

Sekian.

Before you go into gold investment, you have to ensure that:

1) the gold must be genuine (get it assayed),

2) the gold is in your possession at all times(never release it for safe-keeping by the company!),

3) the company does not cease trading before a certain number of months (% "overpaid" divided by % rebate/hibah per month), and

4) the company buys back the gold at the price it sells you.
I am not supporting Genneva or other gold trading companies but here is how it works for the doubting Thomases:

1. You buy gold at retail price (say 20% above spot/bank/wholesale price)

2. You get 2% rebate/hibah per month

3. So for those who say that the buyer is just getting back the excess money he overpaid in the first place, well, it is true and false.

4. True because you really are getting back the part of the 20% higher price you paid

5. False because after 10 months (20% divided by 2%) you would have got back all 20% excess that you have paid. If the company is still in business after 10 months and you continue to do the same, then every month you are making nett returns of 2%

6. You will only rugi if the company go bust before that 10 months because you would not have got back the 20% excess that you have paid because with the gold in hand, you can only sell it at spot/bank/wholesale price to the bank/goldsmith.

7. If the company continues trading the same beyond that 10 months, the rebate/hibah would be real and at 2%x12months = 24% per year (which is much, much higher than FD/ASN/ASB (non-Melayu no chance because of UMNO's racist policies) or what-have-you!)

8. To make it clearer, here are examples:

A. You buy 100g at RM200/g , ie. RM20k
Spot price is RM160/g , ie you "overpaid" by RM4k for the 100g
Every month you receive 2% rebate/hibah, ie RM400
If the company go bust after say 6 months, than total rebate received after 6 months = RM2,400
You sell the 100g gold at spot price RM16k
So total money you received after 6 months (and selling the gold) = RM16k + RM2,400 = RM 18,400
Which means that you rugi RM1,600 (ie. RM20k - RM18,400)

B. If the company go bust at 10 months, you break even after collecting the 10 months of rebat/hibah and selling the gold at spot price.

C. If the company continues business beyond 10 months, your returns for 100g gold investment at say 18 months would be:
18 x 2% per month of RM20k = RM7,200 (plus the 100g gold in hand)

D. If you put RM20k in FD at 3% per annum for 18 months, you would get RM900.

E. So your nett returns in your gold investment at the 18th month is RM7,200, ie. RM6,300 more than FD!
It is clear that  it is not entirely true that you are just getting back the excess money that you have paid.

If the price of gold goes up, your monthly rebate/hibah would proportionately increase even though the percentage is still the same, eg. 2% per month. It is like forced saving.

How can these company pay you such high returns?
It is from the 20% profit they automatically make when they sell you the gold at retail price because they buy it at spot price. The profit from the big difference, they buy some more gold at spot price and make more profit when they sell that 2nd round of gold to others at retail price, again making another 20% profit. It goes on..

As long as the gold company is doing gold trading and not taking deposits, BNM has no jurisdiction. The other reason where BNM can move in is money laundering. So the source of the money to buy the gold must be clear.

Who cares if the Fatwa Committee says it is non-Syariah compliant. As long as it is legal, the Islamic authorities can't touch even the Muslim investors because there is no punitive Syariah law governing such investments. It is just guilt on the part of the Muslims. But with such high returns, who cares! They are not stealing or robbing anybody unlike many of our Muslim leaders! As for non-Muslims, the Muslim authorities have no bloody right to interfere.

Don't you think it is a workable business model and not Ponzi? But to safeguard and reduce your risk in gold investment, refer back to my initial 4 precautions.

Ah.. so the 10 months was just some example lar, not the contract terms. Understand.

So let me get this straight then.
The crux of this investment then is that Genneva buys back the gold for the same price U paid after the contract ends, thus even if i overpay for something it's safe?
This buyback guaranteed like FD certificates? ie. contractual obligation by a Company which is worth the amount in contractual liabilities

There is an issue now.
If you buy from goldsmith shop and sell back to them, the dispersion around 10-15% depends on the bar and company. Selling price and buy back price are higher than bank.

However, if you buy the gold from Genneva and sell it to goldsmith shop, at least loss 40% of current Genneva price. Goldsmith shop also can choose not to buy your golds if they choose not to. So it is false to apply 20% because no goldsmith shop will buy your bar for free which is not belong to them. You might need to consider this as Genneva no longer promise to buy back ur bar.

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Added on August 13, 2012, 10:43 pm
Hence the four precautions in my first posting in this thread. As long as the gold is genuine (assayed independently with assayer's certificate) I don't think it would be difficult to sell the gold, even to banks. Price? I don't know.

This is not a sales thread, please do not post any advertise type of post, advertise of service provided including contact.

A company saying it's their "secret" is an incredibly lousy answer. No matter how you try to put blame on anyone else. I don't care about the "against" camp as I'm not going to invest/trade with them. I also don't care what you agree with or not.

If the "for" camp can only give lousy answers, they've have lost. That's all. Bye, again, for real.

Bro, still shutting your mind and don't want to accept ? 

Looking at all the announcement/advertisement by Bank Negara. It says "Illegal deposit taking" and "investment scheme enticing investors with high returns"

Section 25(1) of Bafia  http://www.bnm.gov.my/microsites/fraudalert/0201_deposit.htm

Please, give Bank Negara a call to find out. Specifically ask for "Genneva"

So what you are buying at 120% because at the end of the contract, you sell back the gold at 120% and get back exactly the same amount you paid. The gold company gives you part of the profit, ie 6% and take 14% for itself. Who would give you part of their profit? You can't really say that "you are paying yourself" because when you sell back the gold, you are getting back that 20%. And that 6% they give you over three months is more than you can get from your whatever type investments available, short of making some sacrifices to be a political leader and plundering the nation after that! As for the 14% which the company takes, don't all companies need to make profits and cover overheads?

10. Does GENNEVA guarantee the buy back?
■No. You have the choice to sell back and GENNEVA has the discretion to buy at a mutually agreed price.
■GENNEVA  does not in any manner, directly or indirectly, at present or in future gives an undertaking or guarantee the repurchase of the gold products sold to its purchaser (no buy back guarantee).

The goldco had subsequently put up 2 forms for ALL their customers to fill up and sign as follows :
Form SCG712-1 Safe custody of gold products
Form NPG712-1 Payment for new purchase of gold products from Genneva Sdn. Bhd.
These forms were actually to transfer all the risks of the goldco’s buyback arrangement to the customer.
Form SCG712-1 is summarized as follows :
We, the undersigned, hereby intend to sell the following gold product(s) to GMSB.
Pending the completion of the sale of these gold product(s), we hereby deliver the above mentioned gold product(s) to GMSB to be held in safe custody on our behalf.We hereby confirm that we are making the above request and delivery on our own free will.
Form NPG712-1 is summarized as follows :
We the undersigned, hereby intend to utilize the proceeds of the gold products sold by us to GMSB towards payment of our new purchase(s) of gold products from GMSB.
Accordingly, we therefore request GMSB not to issue the cheque for payment of the gold product(s) sold by us to GMSB (“Sales Proceeds”).
We hereby expressedly authorise GMSB to retain the sales proceeds and utilise the same towards payment of our new purchase(s) of gold products from GMSB.
We hereby confirm that we are making the above request and authorization on our own free will.


http://www.martinlee.sg/genneva-gold/comme...ge-14/#comments

atankuasa Fatwa Majlis Kebangsaan Ke-100 telah dengan jelas mengeluarkan fatwa bahawa Perlaburan Emas Genneva adalah tidak mengikut Syariah.

8. Who can buy Genneva Gold based on Syariah Principles?
■Anyone can buy – Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

Before you get ahead of yourself, what makes you think Genneva will

a) Buy back the gold?

b) Pay you at the original purchase price?
http://www.gennevaworld.com.my/index.php/faqs/
And even if they buyback one wonders why you cant take the money out because you will have to sign
two docs?
Can anyone verify that you have to sign those two docs?

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Added on August 14, 2012, 7:46 amJaw

Genneva STILL claim its Syariah compliant.....
So who is right here?

Theres just too many RED FLAGS

The link is just definition of  "illegal deposit taking", where in the link got the words genneva? even if there is so, there are so many companies being investigated . Even Khairy Jamaluddin knows what is  called "guilty by association". Learn to seperate the wheat from the chaff. Investigate means guilty meh? what happened to good old "innocent until proven guilty"? If god dont judge me until i am dead, who have the right to judge me while i am alive?
Eddy, i was wondering whose mind is shut. Looking at your writeup you come across to me as an intelligent person, could it be possible you have interest in pretending to not understand?

CAn you ask doraemon killer to also remove the rubberband gun etc advert in his signiture when posting here then? i am very compassionate one. I dont shoot cicak.

Before you get ahead of yourself, what makes you think Genneva will

a) Buy back the gold?

b) Pay you at the original purchase price?
http://www.gennevaworld.com.my/index.php/faqs/
And even if they buyback one wonders why you cant take the money out because you will have to sign
two docs?
Can anyone verify that you have to sign those two docs?

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Added on August 14, 2012, 7:46 amJaw

Genneva STILL claim its Syariah compliant.....
So who is right here?
Theres just too many RED FLAGS

Ah.. so the 10 months was just some example lar, not the contract terms. Understand.

My 10 months is just an example la. What I meant is you are on the scheme every month for that period in the examples, regardless you have to sell and buy every 3 or 6 months.

You can say that you are getting back part of  the excess money you paid for the gold at retail price but who would share/give part of the profit to you? My example C at 18 months shows the amount of money in hand (from the monthly rebate)[ compared to FD interest for the same period. Does it really matter the money comes from the profit made by the gold company which you had paid? The principal amount is in the form of the gold bar, which you would get back at the same amount when you sell back to the gold company. In FD that same amount of principal you cash out by submitting  your CD certificate. If you still can't see the REAL gain in my examples, I can't help you because I think my examples are pretty clear.