Hello my dear brother, I understand that there is this 'superstition' going on around invoking intercession of prayers, particularly when we all believe that Christ is the sole mediator between God the Father and men.
I will try my best to explain and hopefully, to clear the confusion. Still, I am very happy you ask me about this one because at the very least, to choose to stand in this interpretation or not, people will understand why RCC and Eastern Orthodox practices intercessory prayer at certain times.

In general perspective, “Pray” for non-Catholics is synonymous with worship. But, not all prayer is worship. There are four types of prayer: 1) Worship 2) Thanksgiving 3) Petition and 4) Intercession. The original meaning and use of the word “Pray” is to “petition” or “ask.” The practice of petitioning Saints or Mary dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—It has only been with the advent of Protestantism (500 years old or less) that anyone has questioned the use of this word.

In Genesis 30:14, it says, “Then Rachel said to Leah, "Give me, I pray, some of your son's mandrakes."
In Genesis 40:8, the bible says that Joseph prayed to his fellow captives as follows: “They said to him, "We have had dreams, and there is no one to interpret them." And Joseph said to them, "Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell them to me, I pray you." Here the meaning 'To pray' means merely to ask; it does not mean to talk to God only.
In 2 Maccabees 15:13-14, the dead Jeremiah appears to Judas Maccabees and it says that he prays much for the people of Israel. The saints are not dead, they are alive. Jesus says that "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living" (Matthew 22:32).
Paul says that we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, in Hebrews 12:1. Witnesses have to be alive in order to testify on our behalf to the supreme judge.

As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”
In Revelation 6:10, we learn that the saints in heaven know what is going on down here on earth.
In Luke 16:24, we learn that dead people in hell can communicate with the very dead Abraham.
In Mark 9:4, the "dead" Moses and Elijah appear to Jesus and communicate with Him regarding his exodus from earth. People who believe that being dead in the body is also dead in the soul are called atheists, not Christians. It would be sinful to conjure up a dead person, like Saul did with Samuel (1 Samuel 28:14), in order to gain hidden knowledge (Deuteronomy 18:10-12). But asking for intercession (1 Timothy 2:1) from live, holy people is very biblical, due to the power they have (James 5:16, 2 Peter 1:4). Revelation 5:8 and 8:3 plainly state that the saints and angels present our prayers to God in the form of incense.

So, we do pray to saints, but not to worship them. We pray to ask for their prayers. They pray with us and for us, just as others here on earth can pray with us and for us. Have you ever asked a friend or a family member to pray for you? It is the same thing. Saints pray alongside of us to Jesus as our intercessors. They do not stand "between" us and God. There is indeed one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ. And what is He the mediator of? Paul says in Hebrews 9:15 and Hebrews 12:24 that Jesus is the mediator of The New Covenant (the Last, Everlasting), not prayer. Intercession in prayer does not equate to being the mediator of the New Covenant; they are 2 entirely different things. The saints are equal to the angels, and are His sons, according to Luke 20:35-36. John 17:20-23 says that the saints are one with God, and that He has given them His glory.
It also means, Saints enjoy the Beatification of God - Beatified Vision, Meeting God face to face, when we enter Heaven.

Sometimes, certain Christian denominations do pray to them, but some prayer is making a request. We make requests of the saints and of Mary for their intercession, which the Bible says is pleasing to God. Paul says that Christians should intercede: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1–4).

A request can only be answered by God. We request God’s help, his mercy, and his divine intervention. Nevertheless, we do ask the saints, the Blessed Virgin Mary and others in heaven to petition our prayer to God for us. All with the same goal, that God will help, have mercy and divinely intervene. Of course, through Christ, whose authority lies in His and Him alone, which is why every prayer, at the end, we say, through Christ, our Lord. Amen.

In real life, for example:
You are a good friend with C. Best of best since childhood. C's mum is also very loving towards you whenever you come over to his house.
One day, you played a prank on C but C got caught in a misunderstanding and was very sad over this situation. He refuses to talk to you for weeks for He is sensitive. You are very sorry, yet C does not want to see you, he needs time to cool off. Seeing you standing at the doorway for a few hours, C's mum, who is very loving to you (it can be C's dad/aunt) wishes for both side to reconcile, and to be loving towards each other. C loves his mum very very much, and upon C's mum enlightening and loving words of encouragement and advice, C decided to give it a try, to talk to you over it. In the end, you all are best friends without problems whatsoever again.

From the story, C's mum/dad/aunt can be the Mother Mary or saints who enjoy the beatific vision (face-to-face) with God (C - Christ), and through their intercession, sometimes when the God's answer is No, or Not yet, through our persistent prayers and through invoking intercessory prayers, God, who is all-loving, would grant our wish, even though He sees a little good comes from it/time has not yet come, but God always improvise and through us, work something good out of it. But then Protestants may say, why not go to God straight? the answer lies beforehand. God will also not be jealous of this. In fact, He is happy for we are faithful in our prayers, like a loving Father to son, we too, grant our children toys in order to make them happy
Besides this, we also look at the model life of saints when they are human beings on earth. i.e St Francis of Assisi, St Francis Xavier, St Thomas Aquinas. We understand that Christ has placed the perfect role model for us, through His life and His teachings. More often than not, in today's world we are often tempted and swayed, fell down only to be picked up by God's grace again. This is how all of us feel when we, feel like we fail our Lord. But there are people, Saints now, who had done it. We may heard of this saying, 'Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.' Mother Teresa of Calcutta said, 'Saints are only sinners who keep trying'. They are an inspiration for us, but we definitely do not worship them. Afterall, heaven rejoices when we follow the Lord and our actions are pleasing to Him, through all helps in Christ and through Christ (The Branch and The Vine story) "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? Lk 15:4

Also exists Saints, who devote their life lovingly to the Lord our God, with such dedication that is admiration and inspiration to us, angels and God alike. Exists a supernatural phenomenon when God grants them grace and sanctity - when you have time, you can read up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorruptibility or visit some of these places for a close look-up - again, we do look to them in awe, how they live examples of Christ on earth, not worshipping. It hurts when people say we worship even over these things when we visit them. (Of course, it does not mean one has to reach this supernatural phenomenon to enter the Kingdom of God, but they are prime examples and proof of God's miracle and reward)

Addition: and yes, it happens that many catholics (elders esecially) may not understanding fully or grasp Catechism and foundation of knowledge of Christ, that is why they are constantly reminded by priests to devote attention to our Lord Jesus Christ, and not Mary. For Jn 14:6 No one goes to the Father except through Me. As for me, old habits are hard to change. Sometimes the elders refute this advice, but priest told me once: who are we to judge? (Mat 7:1-2) Do not judge others, then you will not be judged. The way you judge others, that is the way you will be judged. When we condemn that, they are not focusing on Christ! blasphemy! etc etc. For they have a loving heart, and God judges our hearts (1 Samuel 16:7). Afterall, love points to One, who is Love - God. I was satisfied with priest's answer on that one too.

This post has been edited by Jedi: Nov 19 2012, 03:42 AM

"Thats how you in the west have talked about judgement and heaven and hell.."

"He said, we have never done it that way before, because the bible doesn't do it that way."

"Its not a matter of leaving earth and going to heaven. Its heaven and earth joined together."



(HD) Transcript: " The word hell has had a checkered career in the history of the church. And it wasnt hugely important in the early days. It was important, but not nearly as important as it became in the middle ages. And the in the middle ages, you get this polarization of heaven over here and hell over there, and you have to go to one place or the other eventually. So you have the Sistine Chapel, with that great thing behind the altar. This enormous great judgment seat, with the souls going off into these different directions. Very interestingly, I was sitting in the Sistine chapel just a few weeks ago. I was sitting for a service, and I was sitting next to a Greek Orthodox...who said to me, looking at the pictures of Jesus on one wall. He said, these I can understand. The pictures of Moses on the other wall, he said, those I can understand. Then he pointed at the end wall of judgment, and said, that I cannot understand. Thats how you in the west have talked about judgment and heaven and hell. He said, we have never done it that way before, because the bible doesnt do it that way. I thought, whoops. I think hes right actually. And whether youre Catholic or Protestant, that scenario which is etched into the consciousness of Western Christianity really has to be shaken about a bit. Because if heaven and earth are to join together. Its not a matter of leaving earth and going to heaven. Its heaven and earth joined together. And hell is what happens when human beings say, the God in whose image they were made, we dont want to worship you. We dont want our human life to be shaped by you. We dont want, who we are as humans to be transformed by the love of Jesus dying and rising for us. We dont want any of that. We want to stay as we are and do our own thing. And if you do that, what youre saying is, you want to stop being image bearing human being within this good world that God has made. And you are colluding with your own progressive dehumanization. And that is such a shocking and horrible thing, that its not surprising that the biblical writers and others have used very vivid and terrifying language about it. But, people have picked that up and said, this is a literal description of reality. Somewhere down there, there is a lake of fire, and its got worms in it and its got serpents and demons and there coming to get you. But I think actually, the reality is more sober and sad than that, which is this progressive shrinking of human life. And that happens during this life, but it seems to be that if someone resolutely says to God, Im not going to worship you...its not just Ill not come to church. Its a matter of deep down somewhere, there is a rejection of the good creator God, then that it the choice humans make. In other words, I think the human choices in this life really matter. Were not just playing a game of chess, where tomorrow morning God will put the pieces back on the board and say, Ok that was just a game. Now were doing something different. The choices we make here really do matter. Theres part of me that would love to be a universalist, and say, itll be alright. Everyone will get there in the end. I actually...the choices you make in the present are more important than that."

This post has been edited by Deadlocks: Nov 19 2012, 08:12 AM

I have gone to church for past 10 years serving in food bank, street ministry, ushering, mission trip and young adult ministy. Of course I seek his kingdom first. Now after 10 years, I would at least wanna see some help from the church to pair us christians..to no avail...nothing of that.

I am not getting any younger. And the church and the bible tells us not to have unholy yoke with unbelievers. I have remain faithful to seek a christian believing wife but have not been helped much by church.

I have two friends, two christian sisters, they are now in thier 60s. They been serving obediently at church for years, faithfully but they are still single. I don't want to end up like them. Serve, serve, serve...but make not effort to find soul mate. Of course its their intention to remain single to serve...I respect that because its their calling. But its not my calling to celibate...ok.

So yes seek the kingdom of god first but we also have to make some effort in seeking a soul mate. Or else it be like you say wanna go and study medicine at a prestigous university but instead you go through the Arts stream in Form 5. Does that really going to achieve your aim??? You must have faith + action. You say you wanna achieve this, you got to do it. That is why along the way, I have ask christian girls out for a date. But time and time again, they refuse. I don't know what they looking for..man.

I even witness a few christian girls at church, rejected many of us christian guys cause we ain't good enough for them, but ended marrying non-christians. Why? Is it because we christian guys are too good people? We are not bad enough? They want bad boys? Maybe I should start smoking...(sarcasm)....

Hi Jedi,

Appreciate your effort, so I've read your entire explanation with due respect. I'm not one of those who practice TLDR because I can get pretty long winded myself at times.

But still it is not Biblical. Bear with me. I will explain in simple summary. So that it is easier to discuss.

Before that, Just a bit of background of myself, so that you know where I'm coming from. I don't consider myself a pew warmer. At best I have an on-going relationship with the Lord just like yourself. No longer young in age but still young at heart. The things of this world doesn't really interest me that much anymore like it use to.

And I know I don't deserve this, but by God's grace, God does speak to me. I've been getting revelations from the Holy Spirit. To me it's really an honour, because I believe there could be a platform Ministry waiting, if God is willing.

At times, the Holy Spirit would just highlight certain things. And here's one of them.

You agree that there's only 1 mediator between Man and God, Jesus Christ. If there's only one, then the Bible literally means it. I don't consider prayer the same as worship. IMO prayer is prayer, you can ask or petition or just talk to God, it is still classified as prayer.

The reason why the Holy Spirit specifically mention Jesus Christ as the only mediator of channel to God and not through anyone else is because only He alone is the access to God, no one else. He was the only one who came to represent us to God, through his death on the cross in remissions of our sins, the apostles didn't die for us. The Bible specifically mention Jesus is also our High Priest to replace the Priest of Old as in the Old Testament. Therefore there is no longer any need for human priest to represent us to God.

Not the pope or any other priest will be able to do so because the Old Covenant has been made obsolete.

Didn't Jesus himself said, No one comes to the Father accept through me? It didn't say through me and the saints and mary. That's why I say some of the Catholics interpreted the scripture base on loose understanding of it's context.

During the times of the apostles as in the book of acts and so forth, whenever the apostles prayed, Jesus is still their Mediator to God. They cannot access to God without Jesus.

So to say that Catholics pray to them because the saints offer prayers to God? that's the same thing as using the saint or Mary as a mediator to God. It's contradiction.

The keyword here is, you pray to them. Praying alongside with them, would require for them to be alongside with you, just like your friends in Church. But the stark reality is, they are not alongside with you. They are in heaven. They could be praying to God but that's between them and God. Only God can do so through his omni presence power to be with each of his children alongside. The Apostles, mere human beings do not have that kind of power.

So Imagine the multitude who pray to the saints so to speak, but how can those few saints represent alongside with the millions if not billions of believers? The keyword here is alongside as in together? That kind of practise is akin to treating them like some kind of deity very much like Taoism.

It contradicts this verse.

1 Timothy 2:5.
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Only Jesus Christ. No mention of whatever saints.

Another thing I want to highlight to you is that, you err when you say only the saints have power.

You do not understand, we are all saints in the eye of God the moment we put our Faith in Jesus Christ.

We all have the same spiritual gifts In Christ Jesus. The apostles and Mary are on equal ground with all of us with regards to God's blessings.

Is it of your doctrine to believe that the saints are more righteous or better than any of us because of their works?

Because if you say so, I can prove to you, that such doctrines are erroneous. I have a number of devotions that explains this in this thread.

You claim many Catholics (elders especially) may not understanding fully or grasp Catechism. I claim many Christians do not fully understand Righteousness by Faith and not of works.

Especially when you quoted James 5:16 and 2 Peter 1:4, I already more or less understand where you missed out in understanding the scripture.

Go back through the old pages, at least 30-40 pages back or just search by my post, I have written very extensive devotion on this.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Nov 19 2012, 03:00 PM

Seeking God is not doing God's work or ministry bro.

Seeking His Kingdom and His righteousness is spending time with God, seeking only Him as your source of fulfilment in life.

Not Girls, not property, wealth or work satisfaction because there are only superficial level.

I sense there's emptiness inside you because you have not really been seeking God by spending time with Him.

You're trying to fill it up with works which is not the same.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Nov 19 2012, 09:36 AM

Of course I am spending time with God. I do my quiet time, I do my bible study with my friends.
Of course I seek god first.

But I don't deny my human nature which I do want to settle down. What emptiness? You don't know me. I kniow exactly what is works. Please don't tell me works is not important. Works is a manifest of our faith.

You don't tell me that when you convert to christian, you still go out to night club, party and drinking and fool around with girls at the pub while yuo are still being married, right? The conversion to christianity have to manifest in your actions too. You can't just say, I believe in what Christ did for me at the cross, I am saved. Hooray...and then you still live in sinful life. The love for christ has got to manifest in your actions....hence works carried out as a result of your faith. Please don't tell me that works = emptiness.

You don't tell me that you are not affected at all if something not very good happens to you? You never felt frustrated at all?

Yes I am a fallen human being. Yes I am still a sinful human being. But by the blood of christ I am cleansed. Until I die and have the eternal salvation, I will still do battle with sin. Yes I am frustrated...I admit that. But don't don't tell me that I am empty because I did not seek the kindgom of god first.

Well Yeah. The progressive shrinking of human life without Christ in this life to the next stage after death which is literal Hell.

People without Christ in this life is already spiritually dead. That's the shadow copy of Hell on Earth.

Not the real thing. Deep down they are always insecure about many things, especially the fear of the future.

Countless sleeps, worrisome, Depression, Anxiety, Sickness, Poverty, etc. These are the examples.

They are all the curse of sin. A mild type of Hell on Earth.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Nov 19 2012, 10:50 AM

A lot of Christians have faith that God is able to bring them out of their sin through the blood of Jesus but lack the Faith that God is able to bring them into the promised land life. One of fulfilment and contentment in Christ.

I can tell you there are some Christians who hide their pain in the works of ministry but cry behind the scene before God about the unfairness of their life. Because they don't trust God enough.

There are some people can perform work without really believing in God. Do you know that? They do it for the sake of doing. Now I'm not saying you are but just to give you an example it can be so.

Because works cannot make you holy nor righteous. The Bible is very clear, until your have a right believe, then only your life will be transform.

I know for a fact there are some people who can cry out at the alter " Oh Jesus change me" with tears and emotion but still remain the same after leaving Church.

I'm not trying to bring you down, but your level of trust in God has to go much deeper.

Fren,

The trust in God manifest in my actions. Meaning to say, I go out there and do something about it. Not sit there, pray pray and believe that it will come true...but do nothing about that.

Do you pray earnestly to find a wife. But don't bother to go out there to meet people? Always stay at home do nothing? You're not walking the talk.

Of course, I know there are lots of people hiding behind ministry, crying in pain. That is why I don't spend half my life doing ministries. I still have a job to do.

I only do those ministries that my talents can excel in. I won't simply walk into a ministry that I am not capable or not suitable. of course there's no harm trying to see if it fits me or not.

Aiyoh, of course works cannot make one righteous. But works is a manifestation of your process of sanctification ! The result of your transformation, makes you want to serve for his glory and have a heart of servanthood.

Works are the fruits of your labour. Get it?

Actually, I don't really believe in the power of altar call. Correct me if I am wrong, I have never read anywhere in the book of Acts, about alter call.

Let me put it this way (I'm trying to help you, really)

Until you can come to a place before God and say,

Dear God, I submit to your will. Even If I don't see my potential wife, I will be contend with you alone to fill my emptiness.

Until you can come to that place, you'll probably not get what you want.

Until you can say I don't need a wife if it's not your will, you will pursue and not find.

I know it's hard to accept this. I know it's not easy.

But bro and you're wrong to say I don't understand.

you're so very wrong.

I was like you, seeking my life partner like my life depends on it.

I got a friend which he is very good cell leader but some how his faith is not really strong as i am. He is very good in the bible verse but his faith is not that strong when he is facing challenges.

Jesus is your first love. Love him first.

Amen.

Come tonight for Healing 7.30pm at GTPJ. Let the intercessor pray for you and find out what is the problem.

This post has been edited by OlgaC4: Nov 19 2012, 10:42 AM

Erm don't be surprise, some pastors also.

But I notice that God uses people who depend on Him totally even though they seems to exhibit weakness.

God will come in and fill you up when you admit your weaknesses, not your strength.

It takes humility to admit before God, I'm not strong and I don't think I can do it without you God.

Just need simple Faith. That's all. A mustard seed Faith is powerful enough for God to work through you.

This post has been edited by OlgaC4: Nov 19 2012, 11:06 AM

i hope spontaneous limb regeneration is also included. many would benefit from it

Not in Malaysia but i have heard in Indonesia. A young pastor told me.

http://jesuscallsmalaysia.org/MINISTRY-IN-...&doit=showclass


I've been there before, prayer tower in PJ, near amcorp mall.

One of the many testimonies.

1)
Torn ligaments and tissue heals instantly without going through the normal process of body recovery

2)
two hairline fractures to rib bones healed instantly.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Nov 19 2012, 11:55 AM

"Since all the faithful form one body, the good of each is communicated to the others. . . . We must therefore believe that there exists a communion of goods in the Church. But the most important member is Christ, since he is the head. . . . Therefore, the riches of Christ are communicated to all the members, through the sacraments."480 "As this Church is governed by one and the same Spirit, all the goods she has received necessarily become a common fund'' Catechism of Catholic Church 947 - which sums up theologically since its not long-winded and precise to the point

Anyway, yeah, thats RCC and Orthodox practice though. You know, I discussed this with prophetjul and in the end, after all theological discussion he said something that u RCCs always try to justify yourselves with human reasoning of this biblical context, leaving the original context loose. Well, so much for all this. That is why it comes to a point where, I will try to answer your question if you have any though, but that is it, to avoid conflicts. Because I really love to share and to listen and to experience unity. and Believe me, I am very very young (21 yr old), trying my best to serve the Lord too. I am very grateful though, to have experienced and receive help from senior brothers, the Church etc and to experience love. Therefore brother, please forgive my ignorance in certain issues, particularly when it comes to theology, where here explains how the disagreement with Communio Sanctorum came about during the Reformation, and in which this maybe more of help: - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_of_Saints and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercession_of_saints


Yes Alvin, it is true to what Unknown Warrior advises. Always remember 'Thy will, not mine, be done'
You did state that u have 50-60 yr old sisters who are still single, serving the Lord. How do you know that in their hearts are empty? if you notice my previous reply (advice), perhaps some are extremely happy serving the Lord, it is their vocation.

"When I am weak, then I am strong"; "power made perfect in weakness. The key to the mystery of strength made perfect in weakness is the cross of Christ. The Father's love sent his Son to die for us to defeat the power of evil in human nature: that's the heart of the Christian story. We do not worship a deistic God, an absentee landlord who ignores his slum; we worship a garbageman God who came right down into our worst garbage to clean it up.

Even non-Christians like the great Chinese mystic and poet Lao Tze seem to have understood the mystery of strength made perfect in weakness quite profoundly, at least in some of its aspects, without knowing Christ or the cross.

This weakness is the very power of God, the secret of God's omnipotence. God is not omnipotent because he can create a universe or perform miracles. God is omnipotent because he is love, because he can yield to himself, because he can be weak. No theist but a Christian understands the secret of omnipotence. A God who is only one cannot be totally omnipotent.

Only the Trinity, only the God who can continually empty himself to himself, can be omnipotent.

We usually think of the Father as the source of omnipotence, but all three persons are necessary for omnipotence. Omnipotence arises only when we come to the Spirit, who is the love between Father and Son for each other.

When this Spirit enters us, the whole Trinity enters us, and lives his life in and through us. The glorious cross of the eternal Trinity and the bloody cross of Calvary mingle in our souls and lives as we participate in the joy of divine love and in the suffering of divine redemption.



and yes, I may be long-winded, bear with me

This post has been edited by Jedi: Nov 19 2012, 03:21 PM