Hi Alvin, i have been following your sharing with some interest. Here is my own opinion and advice, based on Christian views.
Before we get to the problem:
God is Love. The Bible starts with marriage/union - Adam and Eve on Genesis and ends with marriage - Us to God and His angels, saints in heaven. We all seek this love, either by marriage to God (celibacy) or marriage with spouse (Union of two, become one flesh under God's blessings)

Love is Free, Faithful, Total and Fruitful. <--- Core of Love

Now to your situation: (Numerically to bolded part of your situation)
1) - When you meet/date a non-believer, you have to be patient. If you think her personality, attitude suits you and both of you are talking on the same wavelength, why not give the relationship some time? Afterall everything starts with a spark, and then to friends, and slowly .. For God's love for us is the same. It is unceasing, it is always free, faithful and total. It takes time for non-believers to realise this. To feel this love. The same as when we want to preach God's love, not by the gospel, but by our actions of faith, hope and love. God gives us reason, she can sees this herself, if one day she decides not to be with you, its her free will. You need not be sad for you love her as she is, be it friend or as a lover. It is beautiful for what you have done. If it is not yours, it means God has placed someone better, the best for you.
Of course, you also have a choice. Some christians prefer only christians. Some can accept non-believer (like me for example), with my actions, prayer, with time (even years) I am confident my spouse will feel this love, which is God.

2) - True, to marry and adhere to a certain unhappy marriage means it will be unfruitful. This is not love. It is destructive even at times, like you have said, God wants us not to mingle with those who will weaken our faith, or to throw pearls to the dogs and pigs. I am not sure how old are you - mind telling?, but not all people are called to the ministry of marriage. Some are called to be servant of God. Again, come to love - which is free,faithful,total and fruitful. God does not force us. If we feel that we have another vocation (maybe family wish, maybe our own choice), God always make something fruitful out of our choices. - We do our best, God will plan the rest. He always has plan A - Z for us. It is not always one. Therefore, pray and have faith. God is not within our timeline, sometimes it takes 1 week, at times 1 month, 1 year, even 10 years. Maybe He has another plan? His answer is Yes/No/Not yet. I am not sure which denomination are you from, but Catholics, Anglicans, certain protestants invoke the intercession of Saints (esp patron saint of love and marriage), or Mother Mary to God, and more often than not, is powerful.

3) - The Church, is the House of God. The world is a dusty, tiring place that often beats us down. The Church building is a haven, a quiet refuge, a place to encounter God. Here we drink deeply of the life-giving waters of word and sacrament that revive our drooping spirits (Psalm 23). The grace that flows from the altar bears us back into the world, changed, and able to change others, bringing healing and bearing fruit. The world tells us that we are consumers, employees and voters, and flashes a constant stream of icons at us every day to remind us of this. The Church building is an icon that reminds us of our deepest identity. As we gather for Sunday worship, we who were scattered by diverse loyalties, professions, and life-styles, are now united as the Body of Christ and dwelling place of the Spirit.
Therefore, the Church is not a place to seek love outside God. But the answer you seek is within The Church.
(Mat 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. )
That is why when in Church, focus your heart and soul fully on the Lord, pray and worship. Then, the girl you seek will come naturally (and as you said, christian girls may seek SuperHoly guy, what more when they see someone, who can devote his heart fully to the Lord, not devote his heart to the newly-wed? and to union with God? She also has the Holy Spirit bestowed upon, through the Spirit of Wisdom and Knowledge (Isaiah 11: 1-2), She will see the Christ in you, the same Christ who unites people through His Body - the Church to God.

4) "Do not forget that true love sets no conditions; it does not calculate or complain, but simply loves." (Pope John Paul II). As much difference as we differ in beliefs (Catholics - Bible+Tradition+Magisterium), you have to agree with this beautiful, meaningful sentence. It is Christ's love. Therefore bro, dont give up when you love - to anyone. Give yourself an opportunity, a chance, then others will give their chances to you and to take their chances too

Lastly, love in humankind comes and goes. Only God gives a total and fruitful love. So OlgaC4 has said, seek Him first. Our mission on earth as God's children, is to ' go and make disciples of all nations, ' (Mat 19:28) - through faith, hope and love. (1 Corinthians 13:13)
*Pray: pray that God grants you the strength to persevere, the wisdom and knowledge to prepare yourself for your future spouse, so when the time comes, you present as a glorious gift for your spouse, in Christ, and through Christ. At the same time, ask Lord in prayer, is it his vocation for you? or maybe He has another plan for you? What are your strengths and weaknesses?

I will hold you in my prayers

and Hello people, I have been following this thread too, I appreciate Unknown Warrior's sharing and you all to come and gather as One Body. I am from Penang, and with the Roman Catholic (Please, I hope no bashing over RCCs - I am happy to be here, to see sharing, and love within brothers and sisters)

This post has been edited by Jedi: Nov 18 2012, 09:40 PM

Hello my dear brother, I understand that there is this 'superstition' going on around invoking intercession of prayers, particularly when we all believe that Christ is the sole mediator between God the Father and men.
I will try my best to explain and hopefully, to clear the confusion. Still, I am very happy you ask me about this one because at the very least, to choose to stand in this interpretation or not, people will understand why RCC and Eastern Orthodox practices intercessory prayer at certain times.

In general perspective, “Pray” for non-Catholics is synonymous with worship. But, not all prayer is worship. There are four types of prayer: 1) Worship 2) Thanksgiving 3) Petition and 4) Intercession. The original meaning and use of the word “Pray” is to “petition” or “ask.” The practice of petitioning Saints or Mary dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—It has only been with the advent of Protestantism (500 years old or less) that anyone has questioned the use of this word.

In Genesis 30:14, it says, “Then Rachel said to Leah, "Give me, I pray, some of your son's mandrakes."
In Genesis 40:8, the bible says that Joseph prayed to his fellow captives as follows: “They said to him, "We have had dreams, and there is no one to interpret them." And Joseph said to them, "Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell them to me, I pray you." Here the meaning 'To pray' means merely to ask; it does not mean to talk to God only.
In 2 Maccabees 15:13-14, the dead Jeremiah appears to Judas Maccabees and it says that he prays much for the people of Israel. The saints are not dead, they are alive. Jesus says that "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living" (Matthew 22:32).
Paul says that we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, in Hebrews 12:1. Witnesses have to be alive in order to testify on our behalf to the supreme judge.

As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”
In Revelation 6:10, we learn that the saints in heaven know what is going on down here on earth.
In Luke 16:24, we learn that dead people in hell can communicate with the very dead Abraham.
In Mark 9:4, the "dead" Moses and Elijah appear to Jesus and communicate with Him regarding his exodus from earth. People who believe that being dead in the body is also dead in the soul are called atheists, not Christians. It would be sinful to conjure up a dead person, like Saul did with Samuel (1 Samuel 28:14), in order to gain hidden knowledge (Deuteronomy 18:10-12). But asking for intercession (1 Timothy 2:1) from live, holy people is very biblical, due to the power they have (James 5:16, 2 Peter 1:4). Revelation 5:8 and 8:3 plainly state that the saints and angels present our prayers to God in the form of incense.

So, we do pray to saints, but not to worship them. We pray to ask for their prayers. They pray with us and for us, just as others here on earth can pray with us and for us. Have you ever asked a friend or a family member to pray for you? It is the same thing. Saints pray alongside of us to Jesus as our intercessors. They do not stand "between" us and God. There is indeed one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ. And what is He the mediator of? Paul says in Hebrews 9:15 and Hebrews 12:24 that Jesus is the mediator of The New Covenant (the Last, Everlasting), not prayer. Intercession in prayer does not equate to being the mediator of the New Covenant; they are 2 entirely different things. The saints are equal to the angels, and are His sons, according to Luke 20:35-36. John 17:20-23 says that the saints are one with God, and that He has given them His glory.
It also means, Saints enjoy the Beatification of God - Beatified Vision, Meeting God face to face, when we enter Heaven.

Sometimes, certain Christian denominations do pray to them, but some prayer is making a request. We make requests of the saints and of Mary for their intercession, which the Bible says is pleasing to God. Paul says that Christians should intercede: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1–4).

A request can only be answered by God. We request God’s help, his mercy, and his divine intervention. Nevertheless, we do ask the saints, the Blessed Virgin Mary and others in heaven to petition our prayer to God for us. All with the same goal, that God will help, have mercy and divinely intervene. Of course, through Christ, whose authority lies in His and Him alone, which is why every prayer, at the end, we say, through Christ, our Lord. Amen.

In real life, for example:
You are a good friend with C. Best of best since childhood. C's mum is also very loving towards you whenever you come over to his house.
One day, you played a prank on C but C got caught in a misunderstanding and was very sad over this situation. He refuses to talk to you for weeks for He is sensitive. You are very sorry, yet C does not want to see you, he needs time to cool off. Seeing you standing at the doorway for a few hours, C's mum, who is very loving to you (it can be C's dad/aunt) wishes for both side to reconcile, and to be loving towards each other. C loves his mum very very much, and upon C's mum enlightening and loving words of encouragement and advice, C decided to give it a try, to talk to you over it. In the end, you all are best friends without problems whatsoever again.

From the story, C's mum/dad/aunt can be the Mother Mary or saints who enjoy the beatific vision (face-to-face) with God (C - Christ), and through their intercession, sometimes when the God's answer is No, or Not yet, through our persistent prayers and through invoking intercessory prayers, God, who is all-loving, would grant our wish, even though He sees a little good comes from it/time has not yet come, but God always improvise and through us, work something good out of it. But then Protestants may say, why not go to God straight? the answer lies beforehand. God will also not be jealous of this. In fact, He is happy for we are faithful in our prayers, like a loving Father to son, we too, grant our children toys in order to make them happy
Besides this, we also look at the model life of saints when they are human beings on earth. i.e St Francis of Assisi, St Francis Xavier, St Thomas Aquinas. We understand that Christ has placed the perfect role model for us, through His life and His teachings. More often than not, in today's world we are often tempted and swayed, fell down only to be picked up by God's grace again. This is how all of us feel when we, feel like we fail our Lord. But there are people, Saints now, who had done it. We may heard of this saying, 'Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.' Mother Teresa of Calcutta said, 'Saints are only sinners who keep trying'. They are an inspiration for us, but we definitely do not worship them. Afterall, heaven rejoices when we follow the Lord and our actions are pleasing to Him, through all helps in Christ and through Christ (The Branch and The Vine story) "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? Lk 15:4

Also exists Saints, who devote their life lovingly to the Lord our God, with such dedication that is admiration and inspiration to us, angels and God alike. Exists a supernatural phenomenon when God grants them grace and sanctity - when you have time, you can read up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorruptibility or visit some of these places for a close look-up - again, we do look to them in awe, how they live examples of Christ on earth, not worshipping. It hurts when people say we worship even over these things when we visit them. (Of course, it does not mean one has to reach this supernatural phenomenon to enter the Kingdom of God, but they are prime examples and proof of God's miracle and reward)

Addition: and yes, it happens that many catholics (elders esecially) may not understanding fully or grasp Catechism and foundation of knowledge of Christ, that is why they are constantly reminded by priests to devote attention to our Lord Jesus Christ, and not Mary. For Jn 14:6 No one goes to the Father except through Me. As for me, old habits are hard to change. Sometimes the elders refute this advice, but priest told me once: who are we to judge? (Mat 7:1-2) Do not judge others, then you will not be judged. The way you judge others, that is the way you will be judged. When we condemn that, they are not focusing on Christ! blasphemy! etc etc. For they have a loving heart, and God judges our hearts (1 Samuel 16:7). Afterall, love points to One, who is Love - God. I was satisfied with priest's answer on that one too.

This post has been edited by Jedi: Nov 19 2012, 03:42 AM

"Since all the faithful form one body, the good of each is communicated to the others. . . . We must therefore believe that there exists a communion of goods in the Church. But the most important member is Christ, since he is the head. . . . Therefore, the riches of Christ are communicated to all the members, through the sacraments."480 "As this Church is governed by one and the same Spirit, all the goods she has received necessarily become a common fund'' Catechism of Catholic Church 947 - which sums up theologically since its not long-winded and precise to the point

Anyway, yeah, thats RCC and Orthodox practice though. You know, I discussed this with prophetjul and in the end, after all theological discussion he said something that u RCCs always try to justify yourselves with human reasoning of this biblical context, leaving the original context loose. Well, so much for all this. That is why it comes to a point where, I will try to answer your question if you have any though, but that is it, to avoid conflicts. Because I really love to share and to listen and to experience unity. and Believe me, I am very very young (21 yr old), trying my best to serve the Lord too. I am very grateful though, to have experienced and receive help from senior brothers, the Church etc and to experience love. Therefore brother, please forgive my ignorance in certain issues, particularly when it comes to theology, where here explains how the disagreement with Communio Sanctorum came about during the Reformation, and in which this maybe more of help: - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_of_Saints and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercession_of_saints


Yes Alvin, it is true to what Unknown Warrior advises. Always remember 'Thy will, not mine, be done'
You did state that u have 50-60 yr old sisters who are still single, serving the Lord. How do you know that in their hearts are empty? if you notice my previous reply (advice), perhaps some are extremely happy serving the Lord, it is their vocation.

"When I am weak, then I am strong"; "power made perfect in weakness. The key to the mystery of strength made perfect in weakness is the cross of Christ. The Father's love sent his Son to die for us to defeat the power of evil in human nature: that's the heart of the Christian story. We do not worship a deistic God, an absentee landlord who ignores his slum; we worship a garbageman God who came right down into our worst garbage to clean it up.

Even non-Christians like the great Chinese mystic and poet Lao Tze seem to have understood the mystery of strength made perfect in weakness quite profoundly, at least in some of its aspects, without knowing Christ or the cross.

This weakness is the very power of God, the secret of God's omnipotence. God is not omnipotent because he can create a universe or perform miracles. God is omnipotent because he is love, because he can yield to himself, because he can be weak. No theist but a Christian understands the secret of omnipotence. A God who is only one cannot be totally omnipotent.

Only the Trinity, only the God who can continually empty himself to himself, can be omnipotent.

We usually think of the Father as the source of omnipotence, but all three persons are necessary for omnipotence. Omnipotence arises only when we come to the Spirit, who is the love between Father and Son for each other.

When this Spirit enters us, the whole Trinity enters us, and lives his life in and through us. The glorious cross of the eternal Trinity and the bloody cross of Calvary mingle in our souls and lives as we participate in the joy of divine love and in the suffering of divine redemption.



and yes, I may be long-winded, bear with me

This post has been edited by Jedi: Nov 19 2012, 03:21 PM

Yes, unfortunately I do not have the time to browse many pages for now (give me a few weekends). I really like your sharing on Faith.
However, for Christians, Faith must go hand-in-hand with works - I shall come back with this during the weekend okay? thank you!

Peace be with you all. Have a blessed weekend ahead.

привет olga, give me one more day, I will add more to what Unknown Warrior has said, and to try my best to tell you. TGIF tomorrow and I have more time.

May the Lord guide you Happy to see this from me a catholic myself , I will pass materials to you via PM, in addition to what this thread has to offer

Great, I like this post, I shall explain , with time, God willing, to my best to all these differences by concise, refined articles - as opposed to the TLDR Intercession of the Saints I did for all who to view better.
and to Olga as well.

Thanks be to God the ceasefire is now official in Gaza-Palestine.

from sin. Men fell off grace, hence we become corrupt.

Medically speaking, it comes from bacteria viruses fungi

Routinely, it comes from external factor improper diet, lack of exercise, our lives - stress, smoking? alcohol?, internal factor : genetics, family history

but we Christians know very well, also all Abrahamaic religion, that it results from sin.

In addition, (to add up on what Unknown Warrior has said, I will draw the 28th Sunday in Ordinary Time little sermon that I give to my Catholic Christian Fellowship student group (now 35th)

Mk 10:17-30

As Jesus was setting out on a journey, a man ran up,
knelt down before him, and asked him,
"Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good?
No one is good but God alone.
You know the commandments: You shall not kill;
you shall not commit adultery;
you shall not steal;
you shall not bear false witness;
you shall not defraud;
honor your father and your mother."
He replied and said to him,
"Teacher, all of these I have observed from my youth."
Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said to him,
"You are lacking in one thing.
Go, sell what you have, and give to the poor
and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me."
At that statement his face fell,
and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

Commentary:

The Gospel reading left much for us to ponder. Let us check the first two lines, the man came up to Jesus. Why Jesus? Why not Bruce Wayne the Batman? Why not Liam Neeson? Ok serious, why not other rabbis or teachers of that time? here are plenty.

hmmm, the moment of our conception, God has placed a longing in our hearts. St Augustine says, 'You have made us for yourself, and our heart is restless until it rests in you.” It is natural for man to seek God. All of our striving for truth and happiness is ultimately a search for the one who supports us absolutely, satisfies us absolutely, and employs us absolutely in his service. A person is not completely himself until he has found God. “Anyone who seeks truth seeks God, whether or not he realizes it” (St. Edith Stein). In this reading, the man is longing for a guide from the Divine Being.

And then he called Jesus GOOD. - He hears within himself the voice of conscience, which urges him to what is good and warns him against what is evil. Anyone who follows this path reasonably finds God. - why on this context? lets look at the following paragraph.

Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. Christ gave a very clever answer. Jesus here rebuking the man for calling Him good and thereby denying His deity? No.

Rather, He is using a penetrating question to push the man to think through the implications of his own words (not just out of respect), to understand the concept of Jesus’ goodness and, most especially, the man’s lack of

goodness. The young ruler "went away sad" (Mark 10:22) because he realized that although he had devoted himself to keeping the commandments, he had failed to keep the first and greatest of the commandments—love the

LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength (Matthew 22:37-38). The man’s riches were of more worth to him than God, and thus he was not "good" in the eyes of God.

Jesus’ fundamental lesson here is that goodness flows not from a man’s deeds, but rather from God Himself. Jesus invites the man to follow Him, the only means of doing good by God’s ultimate standard. Jesus describes to the

young ruler what it means to follow Him—to be willing to give up everything, thus putting God first. When one considers that Jesus is drawing a distinction between man’s standard of goodness and God’s standard, it becomes

clear that following Jesus is good. The command to follow Christ is the definitive proclamation of Christ’s goodness. Thus, by the very standard Jesus is exhorting the young ruler to adopt, Jesus is good. And it necessarily follows

that if Jesus is indeed good by this standard, Jesus is implicitly declaring His deity.


The logic can thus be summarized as follows:
1: Jesus claims only God is good.
2: Jesus claims to be good.
3: Therefore, Jesus claims to be God. <---where the man reasonably finds on his path
, in his quest of longing for Divine Love, he found the Divine Being from whom, Divine Love flows.

To follow the Mat 17-30 I posted: this is exactly what Jesus said after the 'rich' guy left, refusing to leave everything behind and follow Jesus.

Jesus looked around and said to his disciples,
"How hard it is for those who have wealth
to enter the kingdom of God!"
The disciples were amazed at his words.
So Jesus again said to them in reply,
"Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle
than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."
They were exceedingly astonished and said among themselves,
"Then who can be saved?"
Jesus looked at them and said,
"For human beings it is impossible, but not for God.
All things are possible for God."
Peter began to say to him,
"We have given up everything and followed you."
Jesus said, "Amen, I say to you,
there is no one who has given up house or brothers or sisters
or mother or father or children or lands
for my sake and for the sake of the gospel
who will not receive a hundred times more now in this present age:
houses and brothers and sisters
and mothers and children and lands,
with persecutions, and eternal life in the age to come."

the comments for this passage are answered by Unknown Warrior at least 50%, in the part of self-glorification and humility. We always want to fly before we can walk, arent we? But we are actually able to crawl only, and before we fly, we must SERVE - learn to walk.

so you see, Christ came down as full God, full man, He is the King, but the King He meants, is not the human King who sits on a humanly throne. This is also why Jews refuse to accept Jesus as the Messiah, because they expected someone more glorious, full of glory u can say, to come to this world and save their nation (from the Romans at that time).
It also has a rumor that Judas betrayed Christ, because Judas was expecting a glorious King, and not Jesus. Hence he accepted the 30 pieces of silver because he lost faith in his teacher.

Jews will nevertheless, see Christ in His full glory on the 2nd coming of Christ which will be their First - during the end of times, and we Christians will see the 2nd coming.

This post has been edited by Jedi: Nov 24 2012, 01:04 AM

Discussion with Unknown Warrior (1st Post)


Protestants:“Good Works have nothing to do with getting into heaven. Faith alone is what gets you into heaven.” (Some) Protestants don't believe in the necessity of good works for salvation (faith alone). Catholics believe that good works are a necessary fruit of one's faith.

Catholics and Orthodox: ''Faith must go hand in hand with works for a Christian, to get into heaven''

Misconception: Some Protestants think that Catholics add beliefs to what is necessary for salvation; Catholics believe that Protestants subtract beliefs as to what is necessary for salvation.

The real confusion which I found out today afterall: works of flesh or works of faith?


First before we go on, I must say you have right it very clearly yourself, and I agree with 95% of it : by bolding what you wrote (apart from 1 article). I even saved many of it to my additions for future reference and share with people!!. I also conclude that after all that is being justified by others in the name of RCC/Protestant, we actually hold the same belief, unless, the person is adamant and understands the scriptures differently than an ordinary Christian or holds himself superior in interpretation. I will write why I agree on my next post as I plan to also put an article here for our bros n sis to clear this misconception

Now to go on to some of your quotes which I really like, thank you for sharing must have helped many many people who viewed them : (I will go in retro manner by timeline and at times not in order, to page no 150)





Start Loving others as how Christ Loves the lost. - Oct 28th The power of loving others keeps you in victory

and by the great jihadist of Christendom

Continuation from 1st:

Protestants:“Good Works have nothing to do with getting into heaven. Faith alone is what gets you into heaven.” (Some) Protestants don't believe in the necessity of good works for salvation (faith alone). Catholics believe that good works are a necessary fruit of one's faith.

Catholics and Orthodox: ''Faith must go hand in hand with works for a Christian, to get into heaven''

Misconception: Some Protestants think that Catholics add beliefs to what is necessary for salvation; Catholics believe that Protestants subtract beliefs as to what is necessary for salvation.

The real confusion which I found out today afterall: works of flesh or works of faith? Must be cleared

Before I start, please correct me for my ignorance and forgive me about that. and I do this for the interest of all Christians, not to justify any sides.


Why exists this misconception?

1) The Protestant New Testament contains the same books as the Catholic New Testament. Although Luther showed great hostility to St. James's Epistle because of its doctrine of the necessity of good works and contemptuously called it an "epistle of straw," he clearly saw that he had no more reason for excluding that book than he had for rejecting the other books of the New Testament. The differences between the Protestant and Catholic New Testament arise from changes in specific passages in various books of the New Testament.

2) There are many who have pointed out that Luther added the word, "alone" to Romans 3:28 (you can read one such example in this question) so that the Luther Bible reads:
for we reckon a man to be justified by faith alone without deeds of law
where the Greek reads:
for we reckon a man to be justified by faith without deeds of law

From wiki 'Luther Bible',The word "alone" does not appear in the Greek texts,[9] but Luther defended his translation by maintaining that the adverb "alone" was required both by idiomatic German and the apostle Paul's intended meaning.

Answer: Yes and no. Yes he added it, no it is not the atrocity that it necessarily implies.

Part of Luther's defense of the translation is that inclusion of the word "alone" is more grammatically correct than its exclusion.

His problem, though, is in the interpretation of the verse. If we're being true to the original Greek the passage is better understood, "of the set {faith, works of the law} man is only reconciled by faith."

Causes: Because when he was RCC Monk, He was a faithful person who did all his best to imitate the life of Christ. But he felt that something was missing. He felt that what he did was NOT ENOUGH, that people are still dying,

quarreling etc. Being a theologian and he is a professional theologian when it comes to St Paul's doctrine especially, one day he found new meaning in the Letter to the Romans. (Something like Buddha getting enlightenment)

There, he understood that his actions were in vain because he lacked faith. Then, he started to be more faithful than ever, and he did not care about actions for actions without faith is dead. But he had forgotten this, Faith without

action is equally dead.

I understand Protestants (some, who do not grasp the Scriptures properly or listen to a certain Pastor/anyone alike bashing RCCs) accuse us Catholics of trying to work our way into heaven, as if our works precede our

faith. They have it exactly backwards. Our faith precedes our works. Faith in Jesus and the resultant works go together like fire and heat. You can't have fire without heat, and you cannot have true faith in Jesus Christ without

good works. Jesus cursed the barren fig tree in Matthew 21:19 because it didn't bear fruit. Yes, it was a fig tree with leaves, but a useless fig tree because it didn't do what it was supposed to do - bear fruit.

Good works are the fruit of our faith, according to Paul in Colossians 1:10.

Jewish works of the law, which Paul condemns in Romans 3:28, are not good works.

James 2:24 PLAINLY says - You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Matthew 5:16 commands us all to do good works as a way to let our light shine before men, so as to give glory to God.

In Matthew 25, at the final judgment, only the people who performed good works got into heaven (Matthew 25:31-46). The people who did not were banished into hell. In those verses, Jesus said that whatever we do for the least of our brethren, we do to HIM.

Matthew 7:21 says "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (In other words, one has to do the good

works prescribed in Matthew 25:31-46!)

In the book of James, God declares through Scripture that faith without works is dead (James 2:14-17). Who wants dead faith? Dead faith is no faith at all. True faith in Jesus has good works embedded in it. Paul says that

scripture makes you complete by equipping you for every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Paul also says in Colossians 1:10 that good works are the fruit of our faith;

This is so important because

Jesus cursed the fig tree in Matthew 21:19 because it did not bear any fruit, and in Matthew 7:19 Jesus says that every tree that does not bear good fruit is to be cut down AND THROWN INTO THE FIRE.

Jesus says that we will do greater works than He did (John 14:12). The only useless kind of works are old Jewish works of the law (Galatians 3:10), like circumcision, ritual hand washing, and dietary laws.
These useless works of the law are certainly not good works, which we have to do as a result of our faith in Jesus Christ, and which we were created for (Ephesians 2:10).

Hebrews 10:24 says to stir up one another to "love and good works", which indicates that love and good works GO TOGETHER.

1 Timothy 6:18 says that the rich are to also be rich in good deeds, so that they can attain heaven.

Titus 3:8 says that those who believe in God must do good deeds, because they are excellent and profitable.

Therefore, Catholics, just like Jesus Christ and his apostles, don’t do good works in order to be saved; rather, we do good works because that is what Jesus expects us to do if we truly have faith in Him. Doing good

deeds is the imitation of Christ's life on earth, who raised the dead, healed the crippled, and made the blind see. St. Paul says that there are three things that abide; faith, hope, and love, and THE GREATEST of these is LOVE,

not faith - reminder (1 Corinthians 13:13). Faith in Jesus Christ and the resultant good works go together like heat and light from a flame! Pretty hard to separate those two?!


To sum up, echoing what Unknown Warrior shared with brothers and sisters alike here, meaning RCCs and Protestants should hold the same Truth

So, my dear bros, if Faith is the Door,

Entering the Door (receiving faith), you see God, our Lord Jesus, you go and kneel/hug him etc (JOY and ELATION) = receiving grace

One who opens the door, HOWEVER, may decide to ENTER or NOT TO ENTER.

U may have faith (u open the door), to receive Grace if you truly have faith is another matter. One can proclaim Lord Lord but doing things that is not in the name of the Lord.

Faith + Grace = Fruits, Works of Law Faith


Thank you, for viewing and may God bless you all. and Thank you, Unknown Warrior, for your sharing. God willing, one day, if you ever come to Penang, I shall treat you a big one

This post has been edited by Jedi: Nov 24 2012, 04:54 AM

This post has been edited by Jedi: Nov 24 2012, 05:43 AM

Actually is just Post #3570 that is important, others are all quotes from your examples that I agree

hehe, God bless!


on a side note: tell me what do you think of this year's Dec 21,2012 even though it is not the end of times.

My friend was talking with me over the phone for an hour for this issue. He worries much that if Christ comes, he is not ready. acc to my friend, the 3-day darkness of earth (where the sun will be eclipsed - can be scientifically explained) but falls too much coincidentally with Christ dying on the cross. It will happen at 3.21pm (GST?!) - Christ died around this time, and there was total darkness.
3 days, Resurrection. and the Sun will appear again. well he seems to think that after this, is a 'new' period on earth, perhaps a period of more chaos and dark times..
Of course, as Christians we should prepare always regardless of when etc even though it will not be in our lifetime, and also to look optimistically.

This handsome?


btw, excellent posts about 10 Commandments and although quite a 'drama', it is wonderful to see how arguements bring about stronger relations btw bros n sis and a more fruitful understanding.

the Truth indeed sets us free. Christ is the truth, therefore, when we love, we do not break the 10 commandments, that is how we, living images of Christ, should imitate on the life of Christ.

If we love for example, I love Olga. therefore someone asks me to kill Olga but why would I? 'since Olga is a female name I would use 'she' ', in this way, the commandment 'Thou shall not kill' is fulfilled. We are free from the law.

John 8:32
New International Version (NIV)
32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Bro Unknown Warrior wants this idea conveyed basically

You are a gifted preacher. I bold your last quote: it sums up what I wanted to say about we both agree faith + grace = fruits (works of faith)
but in this sermon that you give, you let me realise one more thing: faith + works still will not work, and this is why I feel unworthy of the righteousness that you ask me to feel - to believe that I am this righteous person. It all inter-connects, flowing beautifully like a music scoresheet.

yeah, i sent it to my friend.

about ur advice to bro alvin on subconscious unforgiveness, I want to to share one of my own experience: the darkest time of my life. It is also this exp that I come to God ever closer than ever, that I understand what is weakness being made perfect in strength (of God)

I was in a relationship only once in my whole life, with a russian girl (extremely beautiful one too) 4 years ago (I study med in rus). It was my 1st year, coming out of a chinese all-boys sch, growing up in an asian env, we are used to guys courting girls. and Girls (jual mahal) and play the tom and jerry game to attract attention. Come here, I would say I am born with good looks (cute, sweet type) and I naturally attract ppl to look at me several glances. But bec of family upbringing (thank my parents), I am not one of those who go and court and want a relationship to get attention or 'glory'. In rus, girls court guys. They marry young (20-22 are prime age for marriage). Unbeknownst, they are also open-minded, outspoken. There was 1 I really like bec of her efforts to gain my attention, and would do all sorts to ask me out and help me in shopping, translating for me to rus in many things. We grew close and we just kissed (I reluctantly give and go for all out romance after her clever ways of indicating to me). At that time, I indulge in a lustful 1st kiss. and soon I am chained in this desire to want more kisses.

God, so love me, did try to warn me many many times, through all little miracles that I only found out after I was hurt (dumped) and I recalled what went wrong.
Most significant 1st miracle I tried to bring her to church, to bring her to closeness with Christ. I am a very cheerful innocent person at that time, as in I thought I can have a most perfect first love-->marriage etc she agree to come to me if not I go to hers. First time just before entering church premise, she hesitates, and kissed me. that was the first kiss where my lips bleed. (I dont know why...until I recall - God wanted me to know this is not the correct person and will lead me away, like the sacred heart of Jesus bleeding) I decided to agree to her not to enter
Other warnings include she walked past the cross and altar of church without glancing, hiding behind me and said she is afraid, during solo walk Holy Spirit tells me she will not wait for me etc etc

Anyway, its full of ups and downs. Bec I felt being used even though we kiss every time theres no satisfaction, once watch movie in room, she hinted want me to stay back and just sit there - God knows what she thinks (no XXX as I very very particular about this, till marriage), to pull myself out before its too late, I said I would get home and then she agreed. and we started to make out less . fast forward to last moments: its Good Friday. we went to christian fellowship (student group) to watch Passion of Christ together. She just refused to look at how Christ got crucified and close eyes or look down. She is afraid..or so I thought and I hold her hands and take down the cross from my neck for her to hold.
During easter, her candle was blown away, while all of us our candles are still lit (despite some slight winds) - and Holy Spirit at that time tells me, her faith is wanting. she will betray me and I will see.

3 weeks later after good friday, i wanted to invite her for authentic Chinese dinner. when I went to her room, I walked past a dark shadowy couple there making out lustfully (I used to maim myself from looking at romances of others for it induces negative thoughts or desires). it was locked, I walked away...and then, suddenly a voice called me from behind: how are u jeffrey? my name
to my horror, she was sitting there with a moroccan guy, That stunned moment: Holy Spirit repeats: she betrays you.

I just said: are you happy? and she nodded and I left , running as fast as i can, and I cried uncontrollably. flashes of memories of Crucifix of Christ and the betrayal of Peter denying 3 times (3 weeks it takes after Easter) and to think back of her refusal to see crucifix scene bec she will exactly do this to me 3 weeks later all make the more I hate her, for everything of this to come true. This is the most cruel way of dumping someone but from it, from this, Christ strengthen me to where I stand today, which I totally be grateful of. I rmb I had a depression of a few months, replacing classes when I feel better, I even think of ____ my life, for there goes my perfect dream. I couldnt bear it, I wish the 2 months faster come, so I can get home to malaysia and at least forget all these for a while. But I rmb, I am the hope of my parents, I cannot be irresponsible.

as u know we RCC believe in Sacrament of Confession. I have to make confession before I can receive Eucharist (bec its mortal sin to think of ___ life, and not to forgive). I refuse to forgive her I was full of anger, such that the priest ask me before he initiates the rite of reconcillation: do u wish to forgive her? I said no, not within this time. He did it anyway, and somehow I felt lighter, I feel calm and when I try to be angry, I could not during the Mass.
God bore all of it upon Himself. Its also a miracle this one. till now I have no explanation how I stopped to hate her. It is how I started to pick myself up. ''what i can say from this is, I firmly believe, through sacraments of RCC grace of God can be imparted to RCCs apart from what we general Christians practice''

There was even once, shortly after, I went to church after class just to sit and talk with God, crying all over. The bright lit summer day turns grey and then rains heavily when I cried to God. and I felt touched, that God still tells me then: He is always with me.
Following then, I grew closer and love God more, for He saved me, from a disaster that could have been worse. Not just attending and celebrating the Mass, my friends, esp christians encourage me, ask me to attend talks etc, and through that, through the priest who is still very much cares for me and calls me a friend, I now can lead my life happily, in Christ. Each time I think back, I would wept in tears, so after 2 years, I become stronger
Now, after the seniors graduated, I became elected to president of catholic fellowship student group with previous presidents guiding me and moulding me, and I try my best to serve Lord even the Church helps me, sends me to Vatican for free trips, for meetings, shaking hands with Cardinal, Archbishops, celebrating Mass with the Pope, I am thankful for all I have, for with Christ, it definitely is a better, more fruitful life.

we never speak again after that, despite her attempts to (i.e invite me to her house again to eat (alone), want to photostat or need my help in Eng for smtg..) I think the most beautiful love I can gave during that period: is Christ - I gave her a Rosary with the Cross amongst the minor- teaching her chinese, strengthening her english, a chinese b'day celebration with my bare hands amongst, even though I never acknowledge her as my gf publicly - which is the reason my friends laugh at me and pointed to me for the reason she dumped me.

Of course, I thank God for the lesson, it makes me matured in thinking, and in preparing myself for my future bride. I nv pray for love, for I am studying well, my life is full of graces of God. I believe He sets my life in motion and carry me, so I need not be afraid anymore I do however, pray to not be over-passionate (be it rus, lithuanian, polish, italians, spanish, wherever I go they come attracted esp to what I have to say - even though they also say I am long-winded, and hugs, kisses on cheek are norm in EU, even holding hands to not let them slip in winter - so I really have to pray for be loving, but not being too passionate in what I do, but within limits) and I am a bit perfectionist. I do still have russian friends who are good, truthful and loving at the same time, which to me I say exceptional russians, for contemporary rus 80% goes for physical. Something, which I think, I pray for all the time.



oops, another TLDR

This post has been edited by Jedi: Nov 26 2012, 01:14 AM

where is the like button?

its true, I also hope Bro Alvin realises this asap, regardless of age.



When God presents that perfect girl for you, Before you know it, you are already the perfect knight in shining armour as you now prepare towards God.

no one said anything about sitting down and doing nothing. what I try to convey and encourage bro is to work your way towards God, towards love. its on my 1st ever reply to you (the advice part)

have a blessed week ahead.


Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. (Mat 18:22)

and Luke Chapter 6



For consolation of self,

"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. (Jn 15:18) - I always remind myself this when people attack us, Christians or say that we brainwash others. It gives you strength to do more for God.

I hope bro Unknown Warrior has no problems with me doing a little preaching and sharing.

readings are available here: (The 1st reading is OT, 2nd reading and Gospel reading is NT and all are together and related as u know of the OT and NT relations)
http://www.usccb.org/bible/readings/112512.cfm

yesterday we catholics celebrate the Solemnity of Christ the King

In case you have no idea what that means: 'This day completes the Christian journey through the life of Jesus Christ on earth and in heaven which began with the preparation for the birth of Jesus in Advent'
In another words, Catholics now prepare for period of Advent, the birth of Christ



Today we read about Christ, coming as King, the Dominus, the Alpha and Omega of the world. Dominus is the Latin word for master or owner. When we speak about King or Kings, we would not forget Kings that came and conquer: namely Alexander, Genghis Khan, Augustus Caesar, and Adolf Hitler, to name a few. And some kingdoms have lasted a very long time, such as Rome whose Eastern half lingered on for 2000 years.

But despite all their machinations, pretensions, and self-glorifying monuments, the great rulers of the earth all proved mortal like anybody else. The had their day in the sun only to disappear. Their kingdoms, too, ultimately passed away, leaving abundant ruins for generations of tourists and archeologists to explore.

In contrast, Christ's Kingdom: Dn 13 ''His dominion is an everlasting dominion
that shall not be taken away,
his kingship shall not be destroyed.''
Rv 8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, " says the Lord God,
"the one who is and who was and who is to come, the almighty."

He is not the President or the King you can simply vote in or out, at our pleasures, for he does not belong to the power structures, custom and practices of this world Jn 18 '"My kingdom does not belong to this world.'' Rather, He is 'the way and the truth and the life' Jn 14:6. He is the CENTRE of our private, public, spiritual, intellectual, physical, and the -ships of our lives, the absolute TRUTH. The question remains: Do we submit ourselves to this TRUTH?

My dear bro n sis, in today's world where relativism (Truth does not matter, I decide what I want.) is preached at large, it oftens wrestle against the embodiment within us, the living images of Christ. How so?

Look at the Kings existed on earth, they jealously guarded their glory, sharing it with no one. Their ascent to the pinnacle of power was made over the backs of others, and they did not hesitate to eliminate any and all rivals. Same as Pilate, Governor of Judea where often are unrests, if you look one line further than today's Gospel Reading, he questions Jesus 'Truth? What is truth?", of Latin Quid est veritas?'. Like in relativism, Truth is a matter of indifference. As long as whatever works, power is maintained, the ends always justify the means. Power, Violence, Self-grandiose, these are qualities in relativism, and reflectively, of a worldly King.

A Divine King however, rather than executing his opponents, he forgave them. Rather than dominating his subjects, he exalted them. He even called them not servants, but friends, and bestowed on them a share in his own priesthood and kingship. Though he died, like other kings, it was for a different purpose than Augustus in his bed or Hitler in his bunker. He died willingly to save his people, and his death was not a result of a battle lost or a plan gone awry, but of a glorious victory planned before the world began.

Unlike the wordly Kings and Pilate with his self-justified truth, Jesus comes to testify the Truth. ''For this I was born and for this I came into the world,
to testify to the truth.
Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice."
More often than not, if we follow our own paths, that is, without God, we justify our 'truths' as long as it is intellectually and morally righteous. How ignorant we are! When this 'truth' lose the moral part, tyrants impose their will. Its happened, its still happening, politics (abortion legalised namely) around the world, fell to temptation only to justify in defense: I did not harm anyone - under the aegis of truth.

Hence, if we are to proclaim Christ is our Saviour, we should SERVE the truth. Dn 7 'the one like a Son of man received dominion, glory, and kingship;' If Jews proclaim Israeli high priest to throne of Yahweh (treated like King even now),what more of Christ, the definitive final high priest representing people before God, and with God's grace, be leader of the world. This is the ruling order to the truth! To guide people to God.

and to quote from Pehkay posts back:
Finally, His True Kingship, and at his heavenly coronation, when he ascended to his Father, he was given what all the rest lusted for–a worldwide dominion that will not pass away. This judgment, this kingdom, will have the last word. No election will overturn it in four years or four million years. There is no one stronger who can rest the dominion from his Almighty hand.

Today, amidst the chaos of outside world, the Church instituted this feast Christ the King serves as a reminder to us that we know the end of the story and should not be fooled by the braggarts who strut and the bullies who gloat. They’ll be gone soon. And He’ll be here soon. How soon no one knows.

This post has been edited by Jedi: Nov 26 2012, 03:15 PM

to help, first u must HEAR. if just explaining the Christian doctrines and ways it will be grounds for them to think: yala u try to impose your belief on others etc

Ill briefly explain so no TLDR

HEAR

goes backwards

R - Respect. First you must respect him as a person regardless of his religion and beliefs. then you will have no presumptions and assumptions about him, in a negative way.

A - Attention. 2nd, You must give attention to the person - meaning no answering phone calls, no looking sideways but maintain eye contact with the person so he or she feels secure and have your attention, then gain your respect in return, first by asking him or her: Why do you think so? How have you come to this conclusion?

E - Empathy. Listen attentively and while doing so, not staring at him or her uninterestingly or at her pretty face his handsome face. Try to be empathetic to what they have to say. responses like 'I see, I understand why you think so, etc' is apt.

H - Help. After you get to why and how they came to their beliefs, this is how you can help him or her.

lastly, I present you a very good article about Divinity of Christ - http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/christ-divinity.htm
There, if you go to general topics, Peter Kreeft explains excellently about Core of Christianity, Existence, Arguements etc, bookmark and read. Its really good! For Christians.

Take some time to read and digest, and then, maybe u can help your friend Also refer my post no 3565 on the previous page.

This post has been edited by Jedi: Nov 26 2012, 10:21 PM

Dear sis/bro, do not believe everything you see first sight. First of all, Catholics are also Christians. Since I am like the only catholic active here (for now), Ill explain what I already know, and forgive my ignorance on the part I had not. You are also christian, and you have the Spirit of Discerning, Knowledge and Wisdom to know what is right and what is wrong.
Now thank God u have that, if not u would not ask.

to the 1st part:
This is the Christian Community Bible- Catholic Pastoral Edition. Is it not the same as Protestant Bible? (I dont know where the video maker get his source but its clearly done without much research)


to the 2nd part:
Why Catholics do not have gifts of the holy spirit? This title itself is so effin wrong. Catholics believe in Christ too, what is there for this person who made this video to judge or post smtg without doing proper research, and that RCC believe in Is but discard Corinthians? No, we all believe the same, Catholic or Protestant.

His half-baked story and condemnation and judging....

Let us look at Isaiah 11

Judge me if I understand the Scripture wrongly, RCCs and Protestant do believe in the same



First, to understand this, one also must understand that this book is about Israel's glory and prosperity declined after kingdom of David. Judah is between two great nations of that time, Ashur - Assyria and Egypt. Days of Anguish indeed. The israelites knew about Yahweh because of their books and because the old people told their children, therefore they still go to Jerusalem to offer sacrifices and follow religious customs of their elders. BUT, Isaiah will reproach them, all of this is nothing more than human laws, a religion that is learned and does not spring from the heart.

This faith has no power. It is a mustard seed but without water. Isaiah is the man who at this time lived this experience and encountered the living God. (Chapter 6)

This book is about a persevering struggle to arouse faith in those deprived of vision. and about God's promises to David's descendants.

Isaiah 11: Israelites live their lives as normal, after David they only hoped for a future King better than David or at least at his level. Why? Because the promise that God made to David about his descendants (2 S 7:14) was not understood to be announcement of future Messiah. Isaiah is the first to announce the Messiah, HERE. Presented as 'A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse' and better than David, Emmanuel (he is also called son of Jesse like David).

Better? the Spirit of the Lord dwell in him always, and unlike the prophets inspired by Spirit of God which is only sometimes.

Spirit of wisdom and intelligence, as Solomon had
Spirit of prudence and strength, like David
Spirit of knowledge and respect for the Lord, as Moses and and Patriarchs had.

The RCC 7 Gifts of the Holy Spirit that he presented (author did not write clearly, but only condemn), from this Isaiah passage are in accordance to St Thomas Aquinas (Doctor of the Church for RCCs), in his Summa Theologica
and is the guideline for Catechism of Catholic Church, BUT

like our Protestant brothers, we believe in all gifts (they do overlap) listed by St Paul
please refer here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gifts_of_the_Holy_Spirit
and there is one sentence there which sums up: In addition, Roman Catholicism[17] and Eastern Orthodoxy also continue to believe in and make use of all of the spiritual gifts. - We believe in all, not that we do not have (like the video maker said)

I do not possess theological knowledge to tell you why CCC chooses from Thomas Aquinas as guideline, but not from St Pauls sources (let me get back to you on this one after I asked priest in church)

Part 3 (RCC “Catholics break the biblical command to not call anyone on earth father by referring to their priests as Father”.)

This passage is often taken out of context, but is wrong to do so. You should not read the Bible and take verses and apply it to whatever you wish. As we dig deeper into this passage, if we were to read it literally then no one can be called father. This would include our biological father and the “Founding Fathers” of our country.

One of the Ten Commandments given us by God was to “Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother.” It doesn’t say “Dad”; it says Father.
Furthermore, there are also passages where Jesus refers back to the “fathers” of Israel. And, St. Paul in describing his very own church leadership refers to himself as the father to his children in 1 Corinthians 4: 14-15.

“I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel”

In James 2:21, James refers to Abraham as our father.
In 1 John 2:14, John is writing to the fathers.

Now,
In taking the full context of Matthew 23, you see that Jesus is condemning the scribes and Pharisees for lack of humility for not looking toward God for authority but rather setting themselves up as the ultimate authority. In the chapter, Jesus condemns them for using the titles rabbi (master), abba (father) and moreh (teacher), for their own selfishness and personal gains. A very crude example of this is a man having children so that he can get a tax benefit and treats his children as such. He is taking the role of “father” for his own selfishness and personal gains.

For RCCs,
Catholics refer to Priest as “father” as a term of endearment and respect. The priests provides for our spiritual welfare just as a father of a family provides food, shelter and love for his family. Priests, through the Eucharist, provide us with our Spiritual food; through Reconciliation, provide us with forgiveness; through mass and the Bible, they teach us about God and His teachings; they listen and give us advise; and by their vocation, they sacrifice their life in service for us and our families. The Priest is our spiritual Father and we are his spiritual children.

“The world looks to a priest, because it looks to Jesus! No one can see Christ; but everyone sees the priest , and through him they wish to catch a glimpse of the Lord” – Pope John Paul II

Hyperbole is used in the Bible in several places, in order to make a point. The point with “call no man on earth your father” (Matthew 23:9) is to let us all know that our Heavenly Father is the Father of us all (“Our” Father). Other examples of hyperbole would be “all have sinned” (Jesus, 1 day old infants have not sinned), and “all Israel will be saved” from Romans 11:26 (Israeli murderers, robbers, sorcerers, fornicators, etc., who do not repent will not be saved). Jesus says in Luke 14:26 ,"If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Does anyone really think that statement by Jesus is to be taken literally? And we have this holiday called “Father’s day”. Do you celebrate this day with Catholics?



About Mary, about Pope (who say he is mediator to God? only Christ is, as RCCs and Protestant believe the same) ), tell me what you believe now and why you think RCC is wrong, and I will reply to u another day.

And from what I see, we should not attack each other, if only we have the good will to try to understand what went wrong, what had to be right, this Church on earth would be united as one. It all happens when 1 try to justify his claim, this is human error, not God's. What is to say the protestants are more true than RCCs about gifts of holy spirit? I know that Assembly of God only accepts people for baptism if, and only if, they have the power to speak in tongues This problem happens when 1 tries to justify his interpretation of the bible above all others, and hence even though pastor do not call themselves 'father', they are akin to the 'father' that Jesus condemns in the same Mat 23:9 that they use to attack RCCs, when in truth, they argue btw each other and break off forming their own church etc problems. So, let us try to be open to each other, bros n sis in Christ Have a blessed week!

This post has been edited by Jedi: Nov 28 2012, 01:14 AM