Now I might want to ask: if God created men just to have fellowship with men, not intend to have men to do good or bad or death, then why would God be unhappy with King David for his fornication?

That too one should see why men cheats.

Just like Adam, he knows its wrong. But makan je. why? Sometimes men are really dumb lol.

How can we forget, ... before God can come into man (if man have taken the tree of life), Satan as the embodiment of the tree of knowledge of good and evil ... entered, mingled, joined, and make himself one with man FIRST. (YUCK!!)

In the fall man has not only a fallen human nature but also a sinful nature mixed with the satanic nature. As a result of the fall, we have been constituted sinners (Rom. 5:19). In order for a substance to be constituted in a certain way, a particular element must be added to it. By God’s creation, we were good, righteous people. However, due to the fall of Adam, sin was injected into our being and constituted us sinners. Sin has been wrought into us and constituted into our being. Therefore, sin is not merely an outward deed—it is an inward, subjective element in our constitution.

When man fell, he did not only make a mistake and do something wrong. In the fall something more serious than a mistake occurred: sin was injected into man’s being. We may think that Adam merely disobeyed God and made a mistake in taking the fruit of the tree of knowledge. We need to realize that when Adam ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge, something evil, and even satanic, entered into him. Through man’s fall an evil, satanic element was injected into mankind. The Bible calls this element sin, and sin is the very nature of Satan, the evil one. In Romans 5 through 8 there are many indications that sin is like a living person: it entered (5:12), it reigns (5:21), it can lord it over us (6:14), it deceives us (7:11), it kills us (7:11), and it dwells in us (7:17). Once sin, the evil element of Satan, was injected into man, man was constituted a sinner. Now instead of being proper human beings, we are sinners by constitution.

Sometimes believers wonder how any brother who is spiritual and experienced could fall into serious sin. We should realize that we are capable of such sin. Consider David as an example. David, of course, was an Old Testament saint. He truly was saintly and wrote many spiritual songs. But was David’s sinful nature eradicated? Certainly not. For the sake of his lust he had a certain man murdered, and then he took that man’s wife. Even someone as saintly as David was capable of such sin. David did not become saintly after committing that sin; he was saintly beforehand. Nevertheless, he still fell into sin.

IN GENERAL

Since the time of Adam, everyone born of woman bears this sinful nature; all of them are of the flesh. We cannot expect this flesh to improve. Human nature is hard to change. In fact, it will not change. The Lord Jesus said, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh.” We should focus on the word “is.” That which is born of the flesh is flesh. No matter how much a person reforms, improves, and cultivates himself, the flesh is still the flesh. No matter how much a person tries to perform charitable, benevolent acts, send relief aid, love others, or serve, he is still the flesh. Even if he can do all these things, he is still the flesh. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh.” <B>Good flesh is still flesh</B>. Since it is the flesh that is born, it will be the flesh that will result. No man on earth can change his flesh. Neither can God in heaven change man’s flesh, that is, man’s nature.

We know that the flesh is always the flesh. This is why God gave us a new life and a new nature. But what shall we do with the flesh? Since God considered it hopeless and impossible, He decided to terminate it, that is, to put it to death. There is no better way than to cause the flesh to die. Hence, “they who are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and its lusts.” (Gal 5:24).

This is why we need daily, gradual salvation of God's infusion into our being. When we were saved, our spirit was regenerated, but our soul will take our whole life. (offtopic ... man because very complicated after salvation having two elements (God and Satan) warring in him/her -- another time)

In conclusion, debbie, just enjoy God ... ... pray to be infused with Him as your everything. Eat Him, drink Him. Forget about trying to be GOOD. The moral teachings in the Bible are the by-products of the infusion of God's element into you. But, we man, having a religious mind, made the moral teachings the center!

When you are filled with God, grow with God etc, how can you not be good? Even more, it will be spontaneous and effortless in living out Christ because your constitution is God . You did not struggle to be a human because your constitution is human. Ultimately, the real goodness is God Himself. The problem is lies with our constitution.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Apr 15 2011, 01:51 PM

I was once pretty enjoy having fellowship with God, for many years. Until one day, something happened in my life and I found out how the christians describe Jesus is entirely different from what I first know Him. My joy in Him is totally sapped off, my peace is all gone, my hope is all disappeared. Jesus, whom I first know, is the only God in my mind, ever. The Jesus that I know of is forever merciful, forever forgiving, forever patient, forever understanding, forever gentle etc, who does not look at how many times you fail to do good, who doesn't look at those ritual practices to show faith, who doesn't count on your mistakes etc. But now from all the testi and all the condemnations and judgments I received from many Christians, I was told that all these impressions I have of Jesus is NOT true.

Jesus is my only hope in life, but now I don't know to who should I cling to. I'm lost and confused. Out of a sudden I don't see any purpose or meaning in life.

Do you know Pastor Philip Mantofa? He has a testi about visiting to hell. He said there are many religious christians are actually in hell now, you get me? If you can answer me and clear my doubts about this, I will definitely get closer and closer to Him.




If you don't want to ask about the family problem (which you claim it is one sort of prosperities), fine, then I would like to know the justification in this: If salvation is guaranteed, why are these Christians in hell?

This post has been edited by debbieyss: Apr 16 2011, 12:59 AM

debbiesys, being an atheist for more then half my life, i can honestly tell you that you do not need a god to be a good person. the question now is not whether god exists or not, but instead it is do we still need that story in today's world?

but that's my opinion la dont report me k

you are wrong, what you are looking at is just a view from the earth, and to the earth, nothing more.

what we christian believe is our current life on earth, and most importantly, our eternal life.

sigh. this is it isnt. why people believe in god. because without it they feel that they dont have meaning in their life. your goal in life is to enter heaven?

yeah, if God didnt even promise us heaven. why should i love and obey Him at the 1st place?

You earn your place in heaven..............Don't believe in GOD then no heaven lo

---

Added on April 16, 2011, 2:19 amBTW............anyone know any place to buy a bible in klang??

This post has been edited by thelion4ever: Apr 16 2011, 02:19 AM

Sure, you do not need God to be a good person. But with God, you can be even more than good. Through God, nothing is impossible.

So the question of needing "that sort of story" is negligible. We know its real.

Nope

Goal in life here is to be the salt and light. To be blessed and to be a blessing for others, while giving glory to God.

Then, follow your spirit within. If you have lost the enjoyment, then what you are doing now, is against the divine life within.

We can bear witness to this in our experience as believers. When we were regenerated, something began to flow within us. This is because as regenerated persons, we have a flow, a current, within us. This flow is the flow of life. The more we love the Lord, spend time with Him, and contact Him, the more this current courses through us. If we check with our experience, we will realize that before we were saved, we did not have this kind of flow within. It was only from the time that we opened ourselves to the Lord and received Him as our Savior and life that this flow began within us. It was the current, the flowing, of the spiritual “electricity.” We have this experience repeatedly as Christians. Suppose we spend some time with the Lord and enjoy Him. During that time, do we not feel something flowing within us, burning within us, and even energizing us? This is the fellowship of the divine life. We as believers have the “current” of the divine life within us.

The proper way to experience Christ as life is to have this flow within us. If we do not have this current flowing within us, something is wrong. Just as a room may be installed with electricity but may not have the electrical current in operation, we may have Christ as the divine life but lose the fellowship of the divine life. If we check with our experience, we will realize that this is truly the case. Having the flow is just like breathing: the air is all around us, but unless we breathe, there is no way to take it in. The way to know whether we are in the fellowship, living by Christ, and experiencing Christ is simply to check whether there is a flow within. Do we have the current within us? If we do not have the flow or if the flow is ebbing, we must cry out to the Lord and open to Him.

The Fellowship of Life Resulting in Joy

When you have the flow of life, you will have joy. When I see you with a long face instead of a shining face, I know that you have lost the inward flow. If you have the inward flow, regardless of your situation, you will be full of joy. Indeed, your having joy means that you are in the flow, in the fellowship of the divine life.

Christians, as a rule, must be joyful persons; they must be persons who are full of joy at all times. Sometimes we are so full of joy that we feel we will burst unless we shout “Hallelujah!” “Praise the Lord!” or “Amen!” Sometimes we are so full of joy that our silence must cease and we must bubble over by speaking. As Christians, we should not be so silent. Because we are so full of the current, flowing, and bubbling of the divine life within us, instead of being quiet, we must shout and speak. You will find that the more you express what is flowing within, the more the fellowship of life will flow within you. This is what it is to be a Christian in the fellowship of the divine life.

----------------------------------------------------
I won't trust all these videos. Always check the Word of God and the feeling in your spirit. Once you touched God, you are saved eternally. Of course, there is the matter of the reward of the kingdom / dispensational punishments in the 1000 years millennium, this has nothing do with salvation and going to hell.

Be assured of your salvation!

I will use the next thread to post a excerpt of an article on eternal salvation ...

The believers in Christ have been saved with security, the security of being saved once forever. God’s salvation is eternal. Once we have received this salvation, it is secured eternally. This is proved by twelve things:

(1) By the Invariable God

Our salvation is secured by the invariable God Himself. James 1:17 says, “All good giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the lights, with whom is no variableness or shadow cast by turning.” Here giving refers to the act of giving, and the gift, to the thing given. The lights in this verse denote the heavenly luminaries. The Father is the Creator, the source, of these shining bodies. With Him there is no shadow cast by turning, as there is with the heavenly orbs in the moon turning its dark side to us or in the sun being eclipsed by the moon, for He is not variable, not changeable. God, the unchangeable One (Mal. 3:6), has saved us, and our condition and situation cannot affect His nature or change what He has done for us.

(2) By God’s Unchanging Will

God’s eternal salvation is secured by the unchanging will of God. Ephesians 1:5 tells us that we were predestinated according to God’s will. In John 6:39 the Lord Jesus says, “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I shall lose nothing, but shall raise it up in the last day.” The Lord’s word indicates that the Father’s will is that none of those whom He has given the Son should be lost. This is the will of God concerning our salvation. God’s will is more steady and stable than a rock. Although heaven and earth may be removed, God’s will, which is unchanging, remains forever.

(3) By God’s Inseparable Love

The salvation we have received of God is also secured by God’s inseparable love. First John 4:10 says, “In this is love, not that we have loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son a propitiation concerning our sins.” The word “this” refers to the following fact: not that we have loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son a propitiation concerning our sins. In this fact is the higher and nobler love of God.

Romans 8:35-39 reveals that God’s love is inseparable. Nothing is able to separate us from the love of God. Verses 38 and 39 say, “I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” We are God’s beloved ones, and nothing can separate us from His love. Once God loves us, He loves us forever with an eternal, inseparable love. Therefore, God’s salvation is secured by His love. This means that our eternal security is the love of God. We may be assured that nothing will separate us from the love of God, because this love does not derive from us or depend on us but is derived from God and depends on Him. This love was initiated by God in eternity.

In Romans 8:39 Paul points out that the inseparable love of God is in Christ Jesus our Lord. If the love of God were shown apart from Christ, there would be problems, for apart from Christ, even a sin such as losing our temper would separate us from the love of God. However, the love of God is not merely the love of God itself but the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. Because the love of God is in Christ Jesus, we may be assured that nothing can separate us from it. Hence, God’s inseparable love is a vital factor in the security of our salvation.

(4) By God’s Irrevocable Calling

God’s salvation is secured by His irrevocable calling, which is based on His selection. God selected us, chose us, before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4). It was not we who selected Him but He who selected us (John 15:16). His selection is not of our works but of Himself. God has called us not according to our works but according to His own purpose (2 Tim. 1:9). This calling is irrevocable. “The free gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” (Rom. 11:29). God will never repent of it nor regret having called us. His calling has nothing to do with our works; our works cannot affect God’s calling, for it is irrevocable. Hence, God’s calling, being initiated by God, not by us, is the security of our salvation.

(5) By God’s Unchallengeable Justification

God’s eternal salvation is secured by His unchallengeable justification. Justification is God’s action in approving the believers according to the standard of His righteousness. The righteousness of God is revealed to faith (Rom. 1:16-17). For the showing forth of His righteousness, God must justify us, and He has justified us who believe in the Lord Jesus (Rom. 3:26). It is the righteous God who has justified us (Rom. 8:33). His righteousness is the foundation of His throne (Psa. 89:14). God’s throne is established forever and nothing can shake it. Our salvation, being secured by God’s righteousness and His unchallengeable justification, is as unshakable as God’s throne.

(6) By God’s Almighty Hand

The believers’ salvation is also secured by God’s almighty hand. In John 10:29, the Lord Jesus, referring to His sheep, says, “My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all, and no one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand.” God the Father is more powerful than anything. He has a mighty arm, and strong is His hand (Psa. 89:13). No one can pluck us out of His hand.

(7) By God’s Eternal Life

Our salvation is secured by God’s eternal life, by the life of God. The Lord Jesus said, “I give to them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever” (John 10:28). The divine life which we have received is eternal, and something eternal cannot be changed. Therefore, the fact that the divine life is eternal is a vital element in the security of our salvation.

To say that once we are saved we can be lost again means that the eternal life which has been given to us would be called back. But eternal life will not be recalled once it has been given to us. God’s eternal life is the security of our salvation. As long as we have eternal life, we have eternal security, and we shall never perish.

(8) By God’s Unbreakable Covenant

Our salvation is secured by the unbreakable covenant of God. God has saved us by His new covenant (Heb. 8:8-13). It has definitely been covenanted that He has written the law of life within us and that He will never remember our sins. As the faithful God, He will never break His covenant (Psa. 89:34). God is bound not only by His righteousness but also by His faithfulness. Hence, His unbreakable covenant with His faithfulness is a security of our eternal salvation.

(9) By Christ’s Perfect and Complete Redemption

Another matter that secures our salvation is Christ’s perfect and complete redemption. Our condition may change, but Christ’s redemption, being perfect and complete, cannot be changed. Christ died for us (Rom. 8:34), and the redemption accomplished by His death is an eternal redemption (Heb. 9:12). By offering Himself once to God Christ has perfected us forever (Heb. 10:14), and His eternal redemption issues in our eternal salvation (Heb. 5:9). Thus, Christ is able to save us to the uttermost, not only in extent but also in time (Heb. 7:25).

(10) By Christ’s Eternal Salvation

The believers are saved with security by Christ’s eternal salvation. Hebrews 5:9 tells us that Christ is the “cause of eternal salvation.” This verse speaks not of everlasting salvation but of eternal salvation, of which all the effects, benefits, and issues are of an eternal nature, transcending the conditions and limitations of time.

The eternal salvation we have in Christ is based on the eternal redemption He has accomplished for us, which is much better than the temporary atonement carried out by the priests according to the order of Aaron. That temporary atonement covered sin but never put it away, whereas Christ’s eternal redemption has put away sin, solving the problem of sin forever. Furthermore, Christ’s eternal salvation is not merely an objective redemption to solve our problem of sin on the negative side but also a subjective salvation to save us into His perfection and glorification on the positive side. Such an eternal salvation is not limited by time and space, for it is all-embracing with the divine element and nature. The divine element and nature of Christ are the basic constituents of His eternal salvation, which not only saves us from negative things but also saves us into positive things, even into God Himself. Such a saving is all-embracing, not limited by time and space.

(11) By Christ’s Mighty Hand

In John 10:28b the Lord Jesus declares concerning His believers, “No one shall snatch them out of My hand.” The Son’s mighty hand is for our protection. Not only the Father’s hand but also the Lord’s hand will keep us from perishing. No one can snatch us out of the Father’s hand nor out of the Lord’s hand. We are secured by two divine hands, the Father’s hand of love and the Son’s hand of grace, both of which are powerful to keep. Because the hands of the Father and the Son will never fail, the believers are eternally secured and will never perish.

(12) By Christ’s Unfailing Promise

Finally, our salvation is secured by Christ’s unfailing promise. The Lord Jesus said, “All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and him that comes to Me I will by no means cast out” (John 6:37). Here we see that the Lord Jesus promised that He will never reject or forsake anyone who comes to Him.

All the verses concerning the twelve factors of the security of our salvation are clear and unambiguous. These verses give us a solid foundation for the security of our salvation, and nothing can annul them. Therefore, all the believers in Christ may have the proper faith to believe that God’s salvation is eternal.

pehkay, thanks for your explanation!

I still have one more question then:



Mind to explain who are these people that gnashing of teeth? Are they Christians who do not do God's will? If yes, then that means even one has accepted salvation, because of his works not divine enough, he lost his salvation, which doesn't go align with the 12 secured salvation quotes.

This post has been edited by debbieyss: Apr 16 2011, 04:57 PM

Let's just say that the place you're referring to isn't really the "Hell" most people believe about.

When you read the Bible, is salvation "going to heaven" or "not going to hell" or something else?

When the great Prophets did not understand the Lord, they prayed for wisdom and understanding.

I don't get what you both are trying to explain.

i gepo a bit: which part u dont understand?

First part was just a question, what is salvation to you? When Jesus came down to Earth, what did he save us from?

Second part was that we humans can only understand just so much of the scripture. And there is alot with cannot understand through reasoning alone or at least using the reasoning and logic we use for all the things around us. I haven't had the time to read all of pehkay's responses and I'd like to answer some of your questions too, but in any case, if you know God is real, then you can build a relationship with them. Like the Prophets, they went born with all the wisdom and understanding the ever needed and just spoke them all out. The also had visions and revelations they did not understand. They also had questions that weren't addressed in any scripture they had before them. So they prayed and asked God for answer, wisdom and understanding. God may not have given you dreams or visions, but he has given you the Bible. And what we can do to help you understand the Bible and how it applies in your life and how it answers your questions is just as much as God has revealed to us. And this may or may not satisfy the things you want to know. I or anyone else can also pull out a few ambiguous bible passages and read anything into it. You'd be surprised how people use passages in Isaiah to claim they're the manifestation of some prophecy made by Isaiah. So, in addition to asking questions here or in church or anywhere else, it's really important to pray about it. God isn't a silent God. He's answered me and many other people in ways ranging from very vaguely to very directly. He's in everyone one of us. Of course he's placed people on earth to guide others. We can be attentive to these guidance, but ultimately we don't become followers of the leaders on earth. We're led by the God.

have you guys started planning on what to do in heaven?

its gonna be pretty boring you know...

No not yet. I dunno maybe play tiv tac toe with Jesus? When the time comes we'll know