Ho ... V5? .... where ayumi?

Vorador, u singaporean?

Why amused?

As in versus the Spirit led Christian

Ah yoh, we are all Christian believing in Christ ... why "not the same"?

The cross is "meaningless" outwardly/physically if we don't experience the cross of Christ in our daily life. Do we experience Christ's death in dealing with world, Satan, sin, old man (Rom 6:6), flesh (Gal 5:24) etc ....

I am afraid that what we Christian today have is just an outward icon but not spiritual reality ...



This post has been edited by pehkay: Feb 18 2011, 02:38 PM

Which part? KK?

Am I? Iconography has creep much into the church after the 1st century. I don't think the early believers have that....

Anyway, my point is another: having the object doesn't mean anything. It doesn't have any power ....

One who lived in the reality of the death of Christ (Phil 3:10) and of course, the resurrection of Christ is another thing ...

Never been to tamparuli ... been to Ranau, Tenom, Keningau and Nabawan

In Malaysia?

Some manna for today ..

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in offenses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) (6) And raised us up together with Him and seated us together with Him in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,

He not only raised us up from the position of death, but also seated us in the highest place in the universe. The heavenlies are the high position into which we have been saved in Christ. In the book of Romans, Christ as our righteousness has brought us into such a state that we may be acceptable to God. In the book of Ephesians, Christ as our life has saved us into such a position that we may be above all God's enemies. The church people today are in the heavenlies.

The word “heavenlies” is rather peculiar. It refers not only to a place, but also to an atmosphere with a certain nature and characteristic. God's salvation by life has brought us into a heavenly place and into a heavenly atmosphere with a heavenly characteristic. When we meet together, we often have the deep sense that we are not in an earthly atmosphere, but in a heavenly atmosphere. However, if you go to a theater or some other worldly place, you will have the sense that you are immersed in an earthly atmosphere. Because we are in a heavenly atmosphere with a heavenly nature and a heavenly characteristic, we are a heavenly people. God's salvation has transferred us into such a realm and atmosphere.

Bible Verses

Eph 4:3 Being diligent to keep the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace: (4) One Body and one Spirit, even as also you were called in one hope of your calling; (5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism; (6) One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

In exhorting us to safeguard the oneness (4:3), the Apostle Paul points out seven things as the base, the very foundation, of our oneness: one Body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father. These seven ones are of three groups. The first three can be grouped together, the Spirit with the Body as His expression and the Body related to the one hope... The next three can also be grouped together, the Lord with faith and baptism, that we may be joined to Him. Then we have one God and Father, who is the Originator and source of all. The Spirit as the Executor of the Body, the Son as the Creator of the Body, and God the Father as the Originator of the Body—all three of the Triune God—are related to the Body.

The keeping of the oneness is a matter in the Triune God. This means that the Triune God Himself is the base of our oneness, its fundamental basis and very foundation.... In our experience, however, the Spirit is first because He is directly related to the oneness, to the carrying out of the oneness in the one Body. Following this, we have the Lord as the Accomplisher and the Father as the source. Therefore, our oneness is the Triune God realized and experienced by us in our Christian life.

Galatians 2:19 says, “I…have died to law that I might live to God.” This means that the requirement of the law upon us as sinners is that we should die and that according to that requirement Christ died for us; hence, our obligation under the law, our relationship with the law, was terminated. This makes it possible for us to live to God.

GOOD MEN AND EVIL MEN BOTH LIVING TO THE LAW

The Gentiles, however, who do not believe in God and do not have God, still live to the law. They live to the law because they do not have God, just as those who do not have a car have no choice but to walk. In addition to not knowing God and not having God, they have the evil power of Satan within them that incites them to sin and to do evil. They know that they ought to do good and to stay away from evil, so naturally they establish certain rules and determine principles for human conduct. Although they do not have God and even have Satan within them, as human beings they still have a desire to be good and to do good. In this contradictory situation certainly they will live under the law and attempt to keep the various principles of human conduct under the law. Their hope is to be successful in their attempts to keep the law. They do not think about God; rather, their thoughts are altogether on the law.

Their practice is most displeasing to God because it puts God aside. In their attempts to keep the law in order to be virtuous, well-behaved, and good people, the unbelievers act by themselves and thus put God aside. They do not acknowledge that there is God—they deny the existence of God, yet they try to maintain a high standard of conduct by being very careful in their speech and actions. In this way they put God aside, conducting themselves and trying to do good by themselves. Just as those who sin and do evil, such as robbers, swindlers, and extortioners, are without God and put God aside, so those who are proper, upright, and well-behaved can also be without God and put God aside.

This shows us that some people have fallen into evil and thus have put God aside, while others have fallen into good and thus have also put God aside. In our society there are these two categories of people. One category consists of those who are capable of committing every crime under the sun, including being treacherous, cruel, deceitful, and evil. There is no doubt that such ones have put God aside and that God has no place in them. The other category consists of people who are well-behaved, who conduct themselves properly, who are trustworthy, and who possess high morality yet at the same time vehemently deny the existence of God. Such ones have also put God aside, and God has no place in them.

Of course, I am not referring to the initial gospel but if it generates statement like 'these kind of message serves much good to Christians and non-Christians alike.' then at least, the passage did its job towards Christians who desire to seek deeper truths on Christian experience.

Unfortunately, today, statement like the above is common as we have a "religious" mind ... dividing things between good and evil. My goal is help Christian to know something about God's purpose:

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MAN BEING CREATED TO CONTAIN GOD

In the beginning God created man neither to do good nor to do evil. Rather, God created man for His purpose. He wanted man to have fellowship with Him, to be filled with Him, to live in Him, and to be mingled with Him as one entity. Man was created for God as a vessel to contain God (Rom. 9:21, 23). This is similar to a glass being made as a vessel to contain water. It is wrong to put dirty things into the glass, but even if we put gold into it, it is still wrong. This is because the glass was made as a vessel to contain water, not other things.

Human beings were created neither to contain evil nor to contain good. We were created neither to be evil persons nor to be good persons. Then what kind of people should we be? How can a living person do neither evil nor good? Can anyone escape from good and evil? None of us can. A person who is without God cannot escape from good, evil, and death in his life. Only a person who has died does neither good nor evil.

BEING NEITHER GOOD MEN NOR EVIL MEN BUT GOD-MEN

Praise the Lord that those who have God’s life have another choice—to be God-men. As those who have the life of God, we would not do evil, neither would we do good; even the more, we would reject death. We are afraid of good, evil, and death. However, there is One of whom we are not afraid, and not only are we not afraid of Him, but we even desire Him. This One is God. Why do we desire God? It is because God is man’s goal and content, and man was created for God.

In the garden of Eden there were two trees: the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 2:9). Concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the Bible says that he who eats of it shall surely die (v. 17). When someone eats of this tree, it may seem to be evil, but it is actually death, or it may seem to be good, but in reality it is still death. The issue of evil is death, and the issue of good is also death. These three—good, evil, and death—are inseparable. Then what is the tree of life in the middle of the garden? This tree of life is life itself. What man sees is life, what he eats is life, and the issue of his eating is also life. Who is this life? This life is God Himself.

Please remember that in the garden of Eden the first tree— the tree of life—is God Himself, and the second tree—the tree of the knowledge of good and evil—is good, evil, and death. People on earth who do not have God choose the second tree instead of the first. The result of choosing the second tree is good, evil, and death. They are good men, evil men, and eventually dead men. These three kinds of persons are all in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Then, as saved ones, are we good men, evil men, or dead men? Praise the Lord, we who have been saved have the life of God in us, so we are God-men.

However, is our real situation like this? Are we God-men in our daily living? This is a big problem. It is very difficult for us to be freed from the law in our human living. We are always turning back to the law, and the law is always following us. Even today, having become Christians, we still cannot easily break away from the law, and instead of living to God, we still live before the law to be people of the law. Although we have been saved and we have God in us, we do not live to God.

As human beings we were created for God Himself. We are vessels to contain God. We should not take good or evil into us; rather, we should take God into us. How can God be put into us? It is by means of the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures tell us clearly that when the Holy Spirit is in us, God is in us (1 John 3:24; 4:13; Rom. 8:9a, 11). What does God want us to do? God wants us to be dead to the law so that we may live to God. Before we were saved, we lived to good and evil; that is, we lived to death. Now that we are saved, we should start learning to live to God. This means that as vessels to contain God according to His purpose in creating man, we should live to God instead of living to the law. We should be neither good men nor evil men but God-men.
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Hope it help you as it has helped me.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Apr 6 2011, 12:10 PM

This is a handful question ...

Since man ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which signifies Satan, Satan's nature entered into man. This nature incites and stirs up man to endeavor to do good that he may please God. This becomes a vice of the fallen sinner. Some may be shocked upon hearing this, thinking that all religionists exhort and encourage people to do good, and they may wonder why I say that man's desire to do good is incited by Satan. Parents like to encourage their children to do good, and even you yourself have an inner desire to do good. Is it good or bad to determine to do good and to encourage others to do good? From man's standpoint, it is good. Today's society everywhere encourages people to do good. As far as human society is concerned, this is good, but as far as the accomplishing of God's economy is concerned, this is not good and is something against God.

God's intention in His economy is to accomplish a goal, that is, for the Divine Trinity to gain man to be His organism. God's economy is not to work out man's goodness; to work out man's goodness is something of God's enemy. Human goodness is God's enemy. What God wants is to have an organism that lives out God to express God, manifest God, and be joined with God as one. Such a living organism is what God wants. From the viewpoint of God's economy, for man to do good is for man to be in enmity with God.

Before the law was given, God first gave man a sweet promise; He promised the fallen sinner that the seed of woman would come. This seed of woman would destroy the enemy, the serpent, who had damaged man. The seed of woman would become man's righteousness and man's salvation. Prior to His coming, however, man would neither believe nor receive Him. Therefore, God had to decree His law to man. The law was not there in the origination of God's economy. It was added because of man's transgressions, while God's economy was proceeding (Gal. 3:19). Due to man's fall and his not knowing himself, God was forced to insert, to add, the law. To add implies that something was not there originally. The law was not there originally but was added later in order to expose man's real condition and true nature and thus show man the true picture of himself.

The Law of God Being a Portrait and Testimony of God

The law of God is a portrait and testimony of God. In Romans 7 Paul says that the law is holy and spiritual and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good (vv. 12, 14). The law is good, holy, and spiritual, yet even so, it is only a portrait, a "photo" of God. The law describes to us what kind of God He is, what kind of image He bears, and what kind of attributes He possesses. Hence, the law as God's portrait is called "the testimony" of God in the Old Testament (Exo. 32:15; Psa. 78:5). God's portrait, God's description, is God's testimony. Your photo is your testimony. When you give me a picture of yourself, you testify to me what kind of person you are. The moment I look at the picture, I know what kind of person you are. Similarly, the law is a portrait and testimony of God. When we see the law of God, we know what kind of God He is.

To continue:

It Being Impossible for Sinners to Fulfill the Requirements of God's Law

The law, therefore, exposes our condition, showing us that it is impossible for sinners to fulfill the requirements of God's law. Although man cannot do good, he desires and wills to do good. Actually, man's condition is that he does not care for God; rather, he cares for things other than God. He does not take God as his satisfaction nor takes what God has accomplished as his enjoyment and rest; rather, he wants to strive by himself and bear the burdens alone. Today people have fallen into a condition of hatred, murder, and fornication. Today people commit fornication like those at the time of Sodom.

Since man's condition is such, God considers His law, His reality, as His requirements upon sinners. It is as if He says to man who desires to do good, "These are My requirements. Do you want to do good? Go ahead! If you can work out all the Ten Commandments, I will justify you." According to Romans 7, it seems that Paul was able to work out the first nine commandments, but he was not able to work out the last commandment concerning not coveting. The law of God makes it impossible for sinners to fulfill the requirements of God, because God's law is for the purpose of exposing man. It cannot give life (Gal. 3:21). The law as a "photo" is good, but it does not have life. Furthermore, there is something that the law cannot do, in that it is weak through the flesh of sinners (Rom. 8:3a). The law itself is not weak, but the flesh of man that tries to work out the law is weak, so the law became weak and impotent.

The Law of God Being Able Only to Expose Man's Sinful Nature and Wicked Deeds

Since the law cannot give life and is impotent, being weak through the flesh of sinners, why did God add the law? The law of God was added for the purpose of exposing man's inward, sinful nature and his outward, wicked deeds (Rom. 3:20b; 5:20a). We have violated every one of the Ten Commandments. The law is a mirror. When we stand before the mirror of the law, we all are exposed.

The Law of God Becoming the Custodian and Child-conductor of God's Chosen People to Bring Them to Christ-Grace

Nevertheless, the law of God has a positive function in God's hand. The law has become the custodian and child-conductor of God's chosen people to bring them to Christ-grace (Gal. 3:23-24). God's chosen people were shut up and guarded under the law, just like sheep being kept in the sheepfold (John 10:1, 16). In His economy God used the law as a sheepfold to keep His elect in custody until Christ came. The law was able only to demand and condemn; it could not give life. There is no life in the law; there are only commandments. Life is in Christ. He is the life-giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45b), the only One who is able to give life. When we are under law, we are just like children, and we need the law to be the custodian and child-conductor watching over us. This kind of watching over is not with an evil intention; it is for our protection. Hence, this custodian becomes our child-conductor, and this child-conductor brings us to Christ. Today Christ as the life-giving Spirit is the grace that we enjoy. When Christ comes, grace comes. He became flesh and was full of grace, and of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. Now we are no longer children under the custody of the law. Rather, through our faith in Christ Jesus we have become children of God to enjoy Him as our grace.

To debbieyss:
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Sorry, if I "bypassed" your question ...... note that in my sharing, my goal to help you to see higher, deeper truth concerning God's purpose than to deal with these questions directly. Usually, if we have spiritual light to see God's purpose, these questions will become er... irrelevant .... Well, to address the matter of human marriage ... we need to see it is a shadow of what is in God's heart.

So here goes:
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The Bible is a romance. Have you ever heard this before? It may sound secular and unreligious. However, if you have entered into the deep thought of the Bible, you will realize that the Bible is a romance, in the most pure and the most holy sense, of a universal couple.

The male of this couple is God Himself. Although He is a divine Person, He desires to be the male of this universal couple. This very God, after a long process, has resulted in Christ as the Bridegroom.

The female of this couple is a corporate human being, God's redeemed people, including all the saints of the Old Testament and the New Testament. After a long process this corporate person results in the New Jerusalem as the Bride.

This Romance in the Old Testament

This holy romance is repeatedly revealed throughout the Old Testament. Immediately after the record of God's creation, we find the story of a marriage (Gen. 2:21-25). In this marriage Adam is the type of Christ as the husband, and Eve is the type of the church as the wife. In Ephesians 5 we see the couple typified by Adam and Eve-Christ and the church. The type of Adam and Eve reveals that the persons of this universal couple must be of the same source. God created one person, Adam, and out from this person a wife came. Eve was not created separately by God; she came out of Adam. Eve was made out of a rib, a piece of bone, that came from Adam, indicating that both Adam and Eve proceeded out of the same source. In this universal couple the wife must come out of the husband. Likewise, the church must come out of Christ. The two persons of this couple must be of the same source. They also must be of one nature. Furthermore they must share one common life. Adam's nature and life were also Eve's. Eve had the same nature and life as Adam. The two persons of this couple were of one source, of one nature, and had the same one life. Without doubt, they also had one living. When God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone;....", indirectly it is God saying that it is not good for God to be alone.

This couple is the secret of the universe. The secret of the whole universe is that God and His chosen ones are to be one couple. Hallelujah! We, God's chosen ones, and God are of one source, of one nature, and have one life. Now we also need to have one living. We are not living by ourselves or for ourselves; we are living with God and for God, and God is living with us and for us. Hallelujah!

Several times in the Old Testament God referred to Himself as the Husband and to His people as His wife (Isa. 54:5; 62:5; Jer. 2:2; 3:1, 14; 31:32; Ezek. 16:8; 23:5; Hosea 2:7, 19). God was desirous of being a husband and of having His people as His wife. Many times the prophets spoke of God as the Husband and of His people as His wife. Humanly speaking, we always think of God in a religious way as the Almighty, feeling compelled to worship Him. But do you married brothers expect this from your wives? Our God certainly is the Almighty God, and, as His creatures, we must worship Him. Many verses speak about worshipping God in this way. However, have you never read in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Hosea that God desires to be a husband? In ancient times God's people built the temple and established a system of worship complete with priesthood and sacrifices. One day God intervened and spoke through Isaiah saying, "I am tired of this. I am weary with your sacrifices. I want you to love Me. I am your Husband, and you must be My wife. I want to have a marriage life. I am lonely. I need you. I need you, My chosen people, to be My wife."

The Full Romance in Song of Songs

Among the 39 books in the Old Testament, there is one book called the Song of Songs. Song of Songs is more than a romance; it is a fantastic romance. Have you ever read a romance like the Song of Songs? As far as I am concerned, the Song of Songs is the finest romance. It speaks of two people who fall in love. In Song of Songs we find a woman falling in love with a man saying, "Oh, that he might kiss me with the kisses of his mouth. I am thirsty for this." Immediately, her beloved is at hand, and the pronoun changes from "he" to "you" (S. S. 1:2-3). "Your name is sweet, and your love is better than wine. Draw me, my beloved. Don't teach me, draw me. I don't need a pastor or a preacher. I don't need an elder or even an apostle. I need you to draw me. Draw me, we will run after you." What a romance!

In the case of Adam and Eve we saw that the couple had one source, one nature, one life, and one living. In Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Hosea we saw that God desires to have a wife who will live together with Him. God longs to have a marriage life, to have divinity live together with humanity. But His people failed Him. In Song of Songs, however, we see the genuine marriage life. What is the secret of such a romance? The secret is that the wife must take her husband not only as her life and her living, but as her person.

(too much I can share from SS)

This Romance in the New Testament

Now we need to consider this romance as it is portrayed in the New Testament.

There is no doubt that the gospels give us a full record of Christ as our Savior. However, have you noticed that the four gospels also tell us that Christ has come as the Bridegroom (Matt. 9:15; Mark 2:19; Luke 5:34; John 3:29)? He has come for His bride. When the disciples of John the Baptist saw many people forsaking John to follow the Lord Jesus, John told them not to be troubled, that Christ is the Bridegroom, and that all the increase belongs to Him (John 3:30). The Bridegroom has come for the bride. What is the bride? The bride is the increase of Christ. Each of the four gospels presents Christ as the Bridegroom coming for the bride.

In the epistles Christ and the church are portrayed as husband and wife (Eph. 5:25-32; 2 Cor. 11:2). The epistles clearly liken Christ and the church to husband and wife. If we know what is unfolded in the epistles, we will see that Christ is revealed in them as our Husband and that the believers are revealed as His counterpart, as His wife. We must be one with Him in source, in nature, in life, and in daily living.

In the book of Revelation Christ is unveiled as having a wedding (Rev. 19:7) and the New Jerusalem is presented as His wife (Rev. 21:2, 9). In chapter 19 of Revelation we see that Christ will enjoy a wedding feast, and in chapter 21 we see that the New Jerusalem will be His wife. In Revelation 21 and 22, the last two chapters of the Bible, we see that the ultimate consummation of the whole Bible is this universal couple-the husband and the wife.

Furthermore, the Bible tells us that this couple with the two persons are one flesh (Gen. 2:24; Eph. 5:31). Adam and Eve were one flesh. Since they were one flesh, they were also one man. Christ and His chosen people are one, universal, corporate man with Christ, the Husband, as the Head (Eph. 4:15) and with the church, the wife, as the Body (Eph. 1:22-23). Eventually, these two become one, all-inclusive, universal, corporate man. In Ephesians 5 the church is presented as a wife, and in Ephesians 1 the church is presented as the Body of Christ. She is Christ's wife and Christ's body. Christ is her Husband and her Head. So, Christ and the church are a universal, corporate man. This is the kernel of the divine revelation in the Word of God. The kernel is simply a couple and a man: a couple with the Triune God as the Husband and His chosen people as the wife, and a man with Christ as the Head and with His chosen people as the Body. This is the central revelation of the whole Bible. In the couple the main aspect is love, and in the man the main aspect is life. Christ and the church, as a couple, are a matter of love, and Christ and the church, as a man, are a matter of life.

Seeing this, do we still treat our marriage so lightly?

This post has been edited by pehkay: Apr 9 2011, 01:34 PM

To debbieyss pt 2: predestination is a can of worm .... . On the previous thread, we can safety say it is not God's desire to have broken marriages / predestined a spouse to leave ... (strange thought).

So, here I am again not answering your question on predestination per se, but my hope is that you will see something higher, that is, predestination is FOR God's purpose.

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Scripture reading: Eph 1:4-5

In a strict sense, predestination has nothing to do with you but of God's desire to have sons. We have been selected and called for God's purpose (Rom. 9:11). In eternity past, God predestinated us unto sonship, marking out a destiny for His chosen ones before the foundation of the world. The goal of God’s predestination is sonship. We were predestinated to be sons of God even before we were created. Hence, as God’s creatures, we need to be regenerated by Him so that we may participate in His life to be His sons. Sonship implies not only the life, but also the position of the son. God’s marked-out ones have the life to be His sons and the position to inherit Him (Eph 1:4)

God predestinated us unto sonship according to the good pleasure of His will, which is His purpose (Eph 1:4). This reveals that God has a will in which is His good pleasure. God predestinated us to be His sons according to this pleasure, according to the desire of His heart. The book of Ephesians speaks not from the standpoint of man’s sinful condition, as does the book of Romans, but from the standpoint of the good pleasure of God’s heart. Hence, it is deeper and higher.

In verse 4 we see that God has chosen us to be holy. However, to be holy is the procedure, not the goal. The goal is sonship. We have been predestinated unto sonship. In other words, God has chosen us to be holy so that we might be His sons. Thus, to be holy is the process, the procedure, whereas to be sons of God is the goal. God does not merely want a group of holy people; He desires many sons. It may seem to us that it is adequate for God to choose us to be holy. We may be fully satisfied with this. Nevertheless, God has chosen us to be holy for a purpose, and this purpose is that we might be the sons of God.

Let us take baking a cake as an example. When a sister bakes a cake, she firstly prepares the dough by mixing various ingredients together with flour. As the ingredients are mixed in with the dough, we may say that the dough is a picture of sanctification. First the dough is separated; then it is sanctified through having various ingredients added to it. After the sister mixes the dough, she shapes it into a certain form. Likewise, God first separates us, and then puts Himself, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, into us. Then follows the process of mixing. To say that God mixes us means that He disturbs us. We may like to have a tranquil church life, but often God intervenes to turn things upside down. Nevertheless, this is the normal Christian church life.

To be holy is to be mingled with God. God sanctifies us by putting Himself into us and then mingling us with His nature. This is a matter of nature, of having our nature transformed with His. We were born human, natural, but God wants us to be divine. The only way this can take place is through having the divine nature put into our being and mingled with it. In this way, God makes us holy. Thus, sanctification is a procedure to transform our nature. This, however, is not the goal. The goal is related to being formed or shaped. This is the reason that along with God’s choosing us to be holy, there is the need of His predestinating us to be sons. To be holy is a matter of nature, but to be sons is a matter of being formed. God’s sons are people conformed to a particular form or shape.

The golden lampstand in Revelation 1 illustrates this. In nature, the lampstand is golden, but in form it is a lampstand. In order for a golden lampstand to be produced, the material must first be pure gold. This refers to the procedure. But the goal of this procedure is the producing of the lampstand with a definite form. In like manner, to be made holy is the procedure for us to become sons of God.

When I saw that holiness was for sonship, I said to myself, “How could you ever have been satisfied with holiness as an end in itself? You can only be satisfied with being a son of God.” Thus, we are not only holy, but also the sons of God. We have not only God’s holy nature, but also the Person of His Son. Therefore, we are not merely holy lumps, but also sons of God.

All Christians know that the genuine believers in Christ are the church. But the church is not merely a group of saved ones. The church is a collective people who have been made holy in nature to be the sons of God. This collective people must be sanctified, saturated, and mingled with God’s nature. Then they will be the sons of God. Such a people is the church.

The situation of today’s Christianity is far removed from this. In Christianity we see groups of people who are saved, but who are still common and worldly, not having any holiness whatever. Furthermore, they do not live like sons of God. Rather, many of them live like sons of sinners. Although so many believe in the Lord Jesus, have been washed in the blood, and have been regenerated by the Spirit, they are still worldly and common, with no mark of holiness in their living. They are absolutely the same as their neighbors, friends, and relatives. Nevertheless, they talk about being the church. What a shame to God, and what a shame to the church! The church is constituted as a collective people who have been separated unto God and who are saturated with the nature of God and fully sanctified to live like sons of God.

(in another side note)

The New Testament clearly reveals that the purpose of God's selection, predestination, and calling is sonship (Eph. 1:4-5). We have been predestinated unto sonship. We are not common sons; we are royal sons, sons of the royal family who are destined to be kings. Romans 8:29 says, "Whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son." This is God's purpose. God's purpose in selecting, predestinating, and calling us is to make pitiful sinners into royal sons so that, after the process of transformation has been completed, we may reign as kings.

Genesis 1:26 reveals that God's purpose in His creation of man was that man might express Him in His image and represent Him with His dominion. The New Testament also says that we have been made priests and kings (Rev. 1:6; 20:6). As priests, we bear the image of God to express Him, and as kings, we have the dominion of God to represent Him. During the millennial kingdom, we shall express Him in His image as His priests and we shall exercise His dominion with His authority to rule over the earth as kings. Now, we are daily undergoing the process of transformation that we might bear the full image of God and exercise His authority.

If we look at ourselves, we shall say, "The more I look at myself, the less I look like a son of God, much less like a king. How pitiful I am! Although I have been saved for many years, I'm still so poor." Praise the Lord that we realize that we are so poor. Do not be disappointed or discouraged. This is why we are under the process of God's transformation.

Of the fifty chapters in the book of Genesis, twenty-five and a half are devoted to the record of Jacob with Joseph. In these chapters we see that Jacob was under God's dealings and discipline. Everyone who was involved with or related to Jacob became a means whereby God dealt with him. God used his father, mother, brother, uncle, wives, and children. But when Jacob finally came out of the oven, he became a prince of God.

What was the purpose of Jacob's experience? Was it for him to have peace, joy, and a happy life? If we say this, Jacob would reply, "I don't agree with you. In my whole life I have not had much peace, not even when I was in my mother's womb. God did not put me first; I had to fight for it. And when I lost the fight, I had no peace. I cheated my brother, and he wanted to kill me. Then my mother helped me to flee to my uncle Laban. Laban was much more skillful than I in cheating. Don't talk to me about peace. I haven't had much peace or joy, but I've had many dealings." God's purpose for Jacob was not to give him peace, joy, and a happy life and then to take him to heaven. God's purpose was to deal with this pitiful supplanter until he was transformed into a prince of God bearing His image to express Him and exercising His dominion to represent Him. This is God's goal. When we come to the end of Genesis, we see that Israel was exactly this type of person. When he saw Pharaoh, he did not say a word. He simply stretched forth his hands and blessed him (47:7, 10). Jacob bore the image of God, expressing Him in a full way. Furthermore, through Joseph, he was the one who had dominion over the whole earth, representing God on the earth. Thus, at the end of Genesis we see God's goal, the goal of His selection. Today we are on the way of Jacob. We have all been called, justified, and are enjoying God's grace. At the same time, we are under God's dealings. Not only is God's little finger upon us, but also His thumb. This is God's dealing and God's transformation. This will make us not only a son of God, but also an Israel, a prince of God.

(still a lot to share ... but ....

If you gone through things without knowing God's purpose ........ here is some reading which helps me ... but again, you have to see it from the viewpoint of God's perspective in gaining us (Jacob's experiences)

What is the distinction between the living God and the God of resurrection? Because, while the living God can perform many acts on man's behalf, the nature of the living God cannot blend with the nature of man. When, on the other hand, the God of resurrection works, His very nature is wrought into the nature of man. Brothers and sisters, please note carefully that even when the living God has performed some act on your behalf, after that act as before it, He is still He and you are still you. His working on your behalf does not impart anything of His nature to you. The living God can work on behalf of man, but the nature of the living God cannot unite with the nature of man. On the other hand, when the God of resurrection works, He communicates Himself to man by that which He does for him. Let me cite two illustrations.

When the children of Israel were in a hopeless plight in the wilderness, the living God opened a way for them across the Red Sea. The dividing of the Red Sea was a miracle which demonstrated to them that God was the living God, yet that miracle performed for them did not bring any measure of the life of God into them. They witnessed many other divine acts in the wilderness—e.g., God gave them bread from heaven and water out of the rock—but despite those and other wonders performed by God for them, nothing of God Himself was thereby imparted to them.

In contrast to this, the apostle Paul testifies to knowing not only the living God, but also the God of resurrection. Paul was so sorely tried that he despaired of life, but it was thus he learned to trust in the God who raises the dead. When the God of resurrection acted on his behalf to raise him from the dead, that divine act not only accomplished something for Paul; it also communicated God's own nature to Paul.

The miracles wrought for Israel in the wilderness were acts of the living God; but despite the many miracles wrought for them, nothing of God was wrought into their constitutions. The miracles wrought for Paul were wrought by the God of resurrection, and each fresh miracle wrought a fresh measure of God Himself into the life of Paul.

The miracles wrought for Israel in the wilderness were acts of the living God; but despite the many miracles wrought for them, nothing of God was wrought into their constitutions. The miracles wrought for Paul were wrought by the God of resurrection, and each fresh miracle wrought a fresh measure of God Himself into the life of Paul. Alas! though generations have passed since the resurrection, many Christians are almost ignorant of the God of resurrection and are only interested in the living God. Let me try and bring this matter home to our daily lives.

A brother becomes seriously ill. His case is considered hopeless, but God has mercy on him and works a miracle on his behalf so that he recovers. Thereafter, he testifies to the fact that God is the living God. Yet within a short time of his recovery he plunges right into the world. Even when he is living in the world, he still remembers that God is the living God and that God preserved his life from death. But he has experienced no increase of divine life; he has only experienced a miracle of healing.

Another brother becomes ill. Day after day passes without a vestige of improvement. For long he keeps hovering at the edge of the grave. Then, when he has completely despaired of life, in the depths of his being he gradually becomes aware of God. Resurrection life begins to work within, and he awakens to the fact that this resurrection life is a life that can overcome all affliction and can even swallow up death. He is still conscious of much weakness and is sorely tested; nevertheless, the realization deepens that God is not working to make His might known in external acts, but is working to impart Himself. Light breaks upon him gradually, and gradually health returns. This brother does not just experience a healing; he comes into a new experience of God. The other brother could testify to a miracle wrought in his body, and shortly after could plunge right into the world; but if this brother gives a word of testimony there is nothing sensational about it, and there is no stress on the healing; yet, you meet God in his life.


...............


What is the significance of suffering? This, that the devastation it brings to the old creation provides an opportunity for the God of resurrection to impart Himself to His creatures, so that they emerge from the death process with a divine element in their constitution. The primary purpose of suffering in this universe, particularly as it relates to the children of God, is that through it the very nature of God may be wrought into the nature of man. "If indeed our outward man is decaying, yet our inward man is being renewed day by day." Through a process of outward decay an inward process is taking place that is adding a new constituent to our lives.

Beloved brothers and sisters, through hardship and pressure a divine element is being wrought into the very fabric of our beings, so that we cease to be colorless Christians, but have a heavenly hue imparted to our lives that was lacking before. Whatever else suffering may effect in this universe is incidental; this is primary—to bring those whom the living God has made possessors of created life into the uncreated life of the God of resurrection. It is in the death experiences which come through suffering that the life of the creature is blended with the life of the Creator. We may know the living God without such drastic experiences, but only through death can we come to an experimental knowledge of the God of resurrection.

Suffering is the God-appointed lot of the Christian. The Christian's happiness is not to be found in external things, but in learning to enjoy God Himself in the midst of trial. Paul and Silas could rejoice and sing His praises while they were in prison, because their happiness did not come from outer circumstances, but from an inner enjoyment of God. In Paul's short letter to the Philippians, written during his imprisonment, there are over a score of references to joy. In deep distress he could still be joyful because in his affliction he was learning to know Christ, to appropriate Him and to enjoy Him. His outward circumstances were all conducive to sorrow, but it was in sorrow that Christ was imparted to him as the source of his joy.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Apr 9 2011, 02:37 PM

Of course ... ... it was never to answer your question ....

It is to bring you out of your present human situation and to look from God's perspective of His heart pleasure.

Int the end, God will use everything from our friends, boss, family, husband, wife, environment, sufferings etc just to gain you to be a matured son of God in the divine life. Everything is in the Father's hand.

Jacob was like that. Paul was too. And many more in front of us.

It is evident that Job and his friends did not see the positive aspect of God's economy in dealing with His holy people. That is, God wants to strip, not to judge, His holy ones that He might gain them so that they might gain Him more.

Job's friends thought that what he was suffering was a matter of God's judgment. However, Job's sufferings were not God's judgment but God's stripping. The Sabeans took away Job's oxen and donkeys, the "fire of God" devoured his sheep, the Chaldeans took his camels, and a great wind caused the death of his sons and daughters (Job 1:13-19). All these things were God's stripping, but Job and his friends regarded them as God's judgment. Throughout the centuries, many readers of the book of Job have had the same concept, thinking that Job suffered because of God's judgment.

Have you ever had the thought that quite often God does something to strip you? Even though you may not be wrong, suddenly certain things happen to you, and God uses these things to strip you. It is through His stripping that God dispenses Himself to those who love Him and seek after Him. Job lost all that he had, but ultimately he gained God Himself. God stripped his all in order that He could be his all for his full transformation and conformation to the glorious image of God in His Son (Rom. 8:29). Job and his friends did not have the adequate revelation of the divine truths. As godly men, they expressed their sentiments within the limits of the revelation they had received.

And you still want to be a Christian ? (joking) The goal is too glorious. Sometimes, I don't like to share this aspect ... THERE are LOT MORE positive things in the Bible e.g. God's dispensing, His riches, His living in us, His one with us, etc ...

This post has been edited by pehkay: Apr 10 2011, 09:47 PM