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mumeichan	Feb 18 2011, 07:43 AM Return to original view \| Post #1
Member Senior Member 4,152 posts Joined: May 2005	Yay v5 finally. Praise God
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mumeichan	Feb 21 2011, 09:45 PM Return to original view \| Post #2
Member Senior Member 4,152 posts Joined: May 2005	QUOTE(mekboyz @ Feb 21 2011, 07:39 PM) So does christianity frown upon homosexuality? because i noticed one forumer is a member of the PLU/LGBT club whilst also being a member here. It's not a behavior that God condones and is spoken against in the Bible. However there are other stuff that God doesn't condone too. And everyone is called to God, homosexual or not and whoever that does whatever else that doesn't please God. It isn't right to exclude a homosexual from a Christian group as it isn't right to exclude a stingy person from a Christian group. Now, as to why God doesn't like homosexuality or whether the Bible really has something against it or not, that's not even worth an argument. To become a Christian doesn't mean to lose the argument. Being a Christian ultimately is a relationship between you or anyone else and God. They can seek out God and I trust God will reveal to them what he wants them to do and not to do. I'm not here to prescribe the recipe to go to heaven or hell and similarly that isn't the responsibility of any Christian. Nor is it out responsibility to go out in a theological warfare to convince anyone that the Bible needs to be interpreted in a certain way. Anyone who want to know what's good or bad just needs a sincere heart to please God and God will handle the rest. We might frown upon homosexuality, not because of what it is, but because or what God has decided.However our job as Christians isn't to frown upon anyone in this world. Our job isn't to judge anyone either. That isn't what Jesus nor any of the apostles though us. This post has been edited by mumeichan: Feb 21 2011, 09:50 PM
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mumeichan	Apr 4 2011, 09:30 PM Return to original view \| Post #3
Member Senior Member 4,152 posts Joined: May 2005	QUOTE(Jellymaker @ Apr 4 2011, 09:22 PM) feeling like the world going into revelation chapter... According to history the world has been like this since the very beginning. The mass media just want to stir up the 'doomsday' feeling because it's good for business. Although there will be signs before the end of the world, Jesus already said that he will come when people least expect it.
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mumeichan	Apr 6 2011, 11:48 AM Return to original view \| Post #4
Member Senior Member 4,152 posts Joined: May 2005	QUOTE(pehkay @ Apr 6 2011, 10:29 AM) Galatians 2:19 says, “I…have died to law that I might live to God.” This means that the requirement of the law upon us as sinners is that we should die and that according to that requirement Christ died for us; hence, our obligation under the law, our relationship with the law, was terminated. This makes it possible for us to live to God. GOOD MEN AND EVIL MEN BOTH LIVING TO THE LAW The Gentiles, however, who do not believe in God and do not have God, still live to the law. They live to the law because they do not have God, just as those who do not have a car have no choice but to walk. In addition to not knowing God and not having God, they have the evil power of Satan within them that incites them to sin and to do evil. They know that they ought to do good and to stay away from evil, so naturally they establish certain rules and determine principles for human conduct. Although they do not have God and even have Satan within them, as human beings they still have a desire to be good and to do good. In this contradictory situation certainly they will live under the law and attempt to keep the various principles of human conduct under the law. Their hope is to be successful in their attempts to keep the law. They do not think about God; rather, their thoughts are altogether on the law. Their practice is most displeasing to God because it puts God aside. In their attempts to keep the law in order to be virtuous, well-behaved, and good people, the unbelievers act by themselves and thus put God aside. They do not acknowledge that there is God—they deny the existence of God, yet they try to maintain a high standard of conduct by being very careful in their speech and actions. In this way they put God aside, conducting themselves and trying to do good by themselves. Just as those who sin and do evil, such as robbers, swindlers, and extortioners, are without God and put God aside, so those who are proper, upright, and well-behaved can also be without God and put God aside. This shows us that some people have fallen into evil and thus have put God aside, while others have fallen into good and thus have also put God aside. In our society there are these two categories of people. One category consists of those who are capable of committing every crime under the sun, including being treacherous, cruel, deceitful, and evil. There is no doubt that such ones have put God aside and that God has no place in them. The other category consists of people who are well-behaved, who conduct themselves properly, who are trustworthy, and who possess high morality yet at the same time vehemently deny the existence of God. Such ones have also put God aside, and God has no place in them. And there's a third category who accept the existence of God and make no effort to improve their conduct. Let's not forget about this. Besides, I really don't think these kind of message serves much good to Christians and non-Christians alike. I'm not talking about you, but this reminds me of something a pastor said. He said Christians go out say "I've thing thing with me, the Gospel, the Good News, it hasn't really done anything much for me, but here, I'm offering it to you. Hopefully it'll do something for you." A lot of Christians have this attitude right? This post has been edited by mumeichan: Apr 6 2011, 11:51 AM
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mumeichan	Apr 17 2011, 01:58 PM Return to original view \| Post #5
Member Senior Member 4,152 posts Joined: May 2005	QUOTE(debbieyss @ Apr 16 2011, 04:57 PM) pehkay, thanks for your explanation! I still have one more question then: Mind to explain who are these people that gnashing of teeth? Are they Christians who do not do God's will? If yes, then that means even one has accepted salvation, because of his works not divine enough, he lost his salvation, which doesn't go align with the 12 secured salvation quotes. When you read the Bible, is salvation "going to heaven" or "not going to hell" or something else? When the great Prophets did not understand the Lord, they prayed for wisdom and understanding.
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mumeichan	Apr 18 2011, 02:02 AM Return to original view \| Post #6
Member Senior Member 4,152 posts Joined: May 2005	QUOTE(debbieyss @ Apr 17 2011, 07:07 PM) I don't get what you both are trying to explain. First part was just a question, what is salvation to you? When Jesus came down to Earth, what did he save us from? Second part was that we humans can only understand just so much of the scripture. And there is alot with cannot understand through reasoning alone or at least using the reasoning and logic we use for all the things around us. I haven't had the time to read all of pehkay's responses and I'd like to answer some of your questions too, but in any case, if you know God is real, then you can build a relationship with them. Like the Prophets, they went born with all the wisdom and understanding the ever needed and just spoke them all out. The also had visions and revelations they did not understand. They also had questions that weren't addressed in any scripture they had before them. So they prayed and asked God for answer, wisdom and understanding. God may not have given you dreams or visions, but he has given you the Bible. And what we can do to help you understand the Bible and how it applies in your life and how it answers your questions is just as much as God has revealed to us. And this may or may not satisfy the things you want to know. I or anyone else can also pull out a few ambiguous bible passages and read anything into it. You'd be surprised how people use passages in Isaiah to claim they're the manifestation of some prophecy made by Isaiah. So, in addition to asking questions here or in church or anywhere else, it's really important to pray about it. God isn't a silent God. He's answered me and many other people in ways ranging from very vaguely to very directly. He's in everyone one of us. Of course he's placed people on earth to guide others. We can be attentive to these guidance, but ultimately we don't become followers of the leaders on earth. We're led by the God.
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mumeichan	Apr 18 2011, 04:02 AM Return to original view \| Post #7
Member Senior Member 4,152 posts Joined: May 2005	QUOTE(Kal-el @ Apr 18 2011, 02:18 AM) have you guys started planning on what to do in heaven? its gonna be pretty boring you know... No not yet. I dunno maybe play tiv tac toe with Jesus? When the time comes we'll know
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mumeichan	Apr 18 2011, 06:58 AM Return to original view \| Post #8
Member Senior Member 4,152 posts Joined: May 2005	QUOTE(Deadlocks @ Apr 18 2011, 06:31 AM) Let's just say I do not believe the "Hell" most people have their impression about. This is because of that the idea of polarisation between heaven and hell were only advocated so much in the Middle ages, but never the early chronology depicted in the Bible. The lack of advocacy of the disciples of Jesus of how heaven and hell which were polarised compared to the ones who advocated it in the dark ages GOT ME REALLY SUSPICIOUS. I believe in Jesus Christ, but I do not believe the "Hell" that many people had impression on. Call it instinct, but I do not find the advocacy of issues to be believable, because those who are in wisdom will understand that it is only INSTANT GRATIFICATION through MARKETING. Heaven and hell is indeed a topic with a lot of confusion. A reason for it is because the people who translated the Bible translated many things to mean hell. I would say one would need a few read through of the Bible and knowledge about ancient Hebrew, Greek, Latin and understanding about early Judaism to get the idea of how the idea of hell changed over time. And also one has to consider why Bible translators choose to translate the Bible in a certain way. We can use a translated Bible, and say screw the interpretations of the translators and proceed to reverse-translate it using haphazard knowledge. And for this very reason, I believe such topical studies cannot be done through listening to people lecturing about it. It's something that must be initiated with clear purpose of understanding God more and willing to invest alot of time into it with one or more partners who are not afraid to challenge doctrines, yet willing to understand how the doctrines come into place in the beginning. Personally I'm with aiyume that this should be a chat thread and serious theological stuff should go to RWI. I also think that atheistic stuff should go to RWI too. It's not quite appropriate to have part of this to be relax and chit chat, then comes some serious theological discussion and some contemptuous from atheist. For whatever reason you do not believe in God and whatever your motivation is to enlighten us that God does not exist, this really isn't the place for it. And if you do not believe in God, you do not have to put us down by being silly here. And if you seriously think you have the duty to prove to us that God does not exist, then being more respectful might be the first step you want to consider. Otherwise, you're simply trolling in the thread. » Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... « I admit that I and most Christians out there do not understand a whole lot about God nor do we know all the secrets of the universe. Similarly you don't. I was really open to God not existing and I spend many years mulling over the idea. I read books written by Dawkins and considered many philosophical arguments against God and I was fully convinced God didn't exist. But through more study, disproving the existence of something is really a very hard task and there really as many philosophical propositions for the existence of God. If you want to be wise, then for any case, you have to consider all arguments, all conditions and all assumptions and be ever ready to accept more fact that come into the picture and your study goes on. Even a lifetime's worth of knowledge isn't enough to be sure of anything and the history of science has shown. I thought do not put the foundation of my believe on these arguments for God's existence, I place it on the experience with God, which is something I can't describe in word and I know is the trump card for skeptics. If I can't even put it to words, probably it's just my stubborn belief or imagination and there's no reason for you to believe in me. Yep that's right, you've no reason to believe whatever I say, but you've every opportunity to seek out that experience for yourself. What I or any evangelist that do at the most it convince you to be more open to God's existence and less hardheaded, but we can't convince you by some argument that God exist. If that was to experience God, then those Prophets and Apostles would have spent their making philosophical arguments. If I wanted a religion for the sake of having a religions, honestly I think I'd just subscribe to Buddhism or some New Age thinking that I can mold to fit all my expectations about what a God should be or some higher power or whatever. We're not out there to convince you that the belief in God is some philosophical framework that fits with everyone's thinking, wishes, goals and objectives. And so if you still want to busy yourself with these kind of merry go round arguments please take it to RWI. QUOTE(jdreamer) We can talk about lots of things here, for examples.. gospels songs (Hillsong, etc), choirs, churches, bible knowledges, or even share our expriences with the Holy Spirit, our Lord, etc. Plus, if there's a chance, we may also go for a gathering or something, or even a trip together like visiting the other churches or do some charity works together. U can also inform us about any events that going on in ur churches, or any concerts & conferences in Malaysia. smile.gif Remember, we're not promoting Christianity or trying to evangelize by this thread as its not allowed here. Therefore, we're only here to gather and talk about our daily life, our churches, gospel songs, events going on, or the concerts and conferences, even camps, etc. tongue.gif I'm not trying to make this thread into a flaming zone, but still, we welcome any religious forumers to join us here. So, if ur intended to come in here to insult our religion, please stay away from this thread. wink.gif And if u have any questions about the gospel songs, or even the churches, environments around the churches etc, feel free to ask. smile.gif This post has been edited by mumeichan*: Apr 18 2011, 07:23 AM
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mumeichan	Apr 18 2011, 11:31 AM Return to original view \| Post #9
Member Senior Member 4,152 posts Joined: May 2005	QUOTE(hotjake @ Apr 18 2011, 10:10 AM) it cuts both ways mang LIKEWISE, for whatever reason theists do not see eye to eye with atheists' stand on God's non-existence and whatever your motivation (however good it seems at first - always turns into atheist bashing in the end) is to enlighten us that God does exist, Atheism tereds opened by theists for the sole purpose of bashing and ridicule or using pseudo-Science like Intelligent Design as justification tool (the various holybooks are enough) only serve to increase the disillutionment and hate even more. We are sure you believe in God and understand why, you do not have to put us down just because we are different. Just as religious bigots exists so those overly indulgent atheists that cross the border of civility. And i'm sure you owe it to your God to spread the good news especially to non-believers i.e. atheists and whatnot, then being more understanding might be the first step you'd want to consider. in /k trolls beget trolls something /k tards have grown accustomed to unless a MIRACLE happens. 'So many gods, so many creeds, so many paths that wind and wind while just the art of being kind is all the sad world needs' ~ Ella Wheeler Wilcox Thank you very much I totally agree with you. It cuts both ways. Theist doing atheist basing is not acceptable either. It's stupid. Like I said, I totally see where how people can get really passionate about atheism and how it leads to ridiculing too. I lost my faith once and I lost it because I began to subscribe to the very arguments I was against. Theist, atheist and whatever other kinds of grouping always will lead to disparaging of other groups that hold conflicting opinions. Sometimes people don't do it intentionally, it just snowball and people bandwagon on. I can't eliminate trolls, but I can make a stand so that people who might not want to troll in the first place don't.
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mumeichan	Apr 18 2011, 10:21 PM Return to original view \| Post #10
Member Senior Member 4,152 posts Joined: May 2005	QUOTE(pehkay @ Apr 18 2011, 03:58 PM) » Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... « Haha, someone brave enough to ask. Yes, salvation is not "going to heaven" (but there is heaven and lake of fire ...). Mind you, this statement will riles a lot of feathers and thrashed years of Christian "traditions".... and offends a lot of dear brothers and sister here ... The ultimate consummation of everything in the Bible is the New Jerusalem. What is the New Jerusalem in a nutshell: a) it is a mingling, a constitution, of the Triune God with His chosen and redeemed people” b) it is a composition of God’s chosen, redeemed, regenerated, sanctified, transformed, and glorified people who have been deified c) the ultimate consummation of God’s complete salvation —the crystallization of the union and mingling of God with man, the processed and consummated Triune God with His regenerated, transformed, conformed, and glorified tripartite elect. The New Jerusalem is not a physical city, as commonly believed by Christians. Rather, the book of Revelation indicates that the New Jerusalem is a divine and spiritual sign. The revelation of the entire book of Revelation is mainly made known to us by signs (Rev. 1:1) symbolizing important persons and things, such as the golden lampstands in 1:12, signifying the churches bearing the shining testimony of Jesus Christ; the stars in 1:16, signifying the bright and shining messengers of the churches; the mysterious Babylon the Great in 17:5, signifying religious Rome; and the bride in 19:7, signifying the overcoming saints as the spouse of Christ. Hence, the New Jerusalem also should be a sign, signifying the ultimate consummation of the divine Trinity dispensing Himself into His chosen people. The Tabernacle of God The New Jerusalem has two natures, humanity and divinity. According to its humanity, the New Jerusalem is the tabernacle of God among men-the dwelling place of God in His humanity among men on the earth (Rev. 21:3). In the Bible, the tabernacle is a human dwelling place. The New Jerusalem is a human dwelling place because it is constituted with humanity. It is God's human dwelling place on earth. John 1:14 says that God was incarnated in the flesh to tabernacle among men. He is God, but He has become a man. He partook of humanity as His nature, so He dwells in humanity. The Temple of God According to its divinity, the New Jerusalem is the temple of God as the dwelling place of His redeemed elect (Rev. 21:22). The holy city is the temple of God because it is divine. It is the temple of God, yet it is the dwelling place of His redeemed. How could this be? Because this is God's temple, the dweller must be divine, but what about us? Are we divine or human? According to its humanity, the New Jerusalem is the tabernacle, but God dwells in the tabernacle. God can dwell in a human dwelling place because He has become a man. According to the divinity of the New Jerusalem, it is a temple for God to dwell in. If you are only human and not divine, you cannot dwell in the temple. We human beings can dwell in a divine temple because we have been made God in life and in nature but not in the Godhead. The New Jerusalem is a mutual abode. According to its humanity, it is a human tabernacle. According to its divinity, it is a divine temple. It is a human dwelling place, but the Dweller is God. How can God dwell in a human place? Because He became a man. In the same way, how can we humans dwell in God's temple? Because we have been made God. This is the mutual abiding of God and man (John 14:20) The Human Wife of the Redeeming God According to its humanity, the New Jerusalem is the human wife (with the divine life and nature) of the Lamb- the redeeming God (21:2, 9). This human wife can marry a divine Person because she has the divine life and nature. This qualifies her to match the redeeming God. On the one hand, she is human. On the other hand, she is divine. Because she is human, she can be the redeeming God's human wife. Because she is divine, she can marry Him, a divine Person. The Divine Husband of God's Redeemed Elect According to its divinity, it is the divine Husband (the redeeming God in His consummated embodiment, Christ, with the human life and nature) of God's redeemed elect. The wife is human, and the Husband is divine. How can a human wife marry a divine Person? Because she has the divine Person's divine nature and life. How can the same entity also be a husband? Because the New Jerusalem is divine. The divine God is a part of its constituent. Therefore, on the one hand, it is a wife. On the other hand, it is a husband. The New Jerusalem is the wife according to its humanity and the husband according to its divinity. But as the divine Husband, the New Jerusalem has the human life and nature. In its humanity and in its divinity it is both a mutual abode and a couple, a wife and a husband. You will notice its base is gold, silver and precious stone. The river going forth from Garden of Eden in Genesis issues in three precious materials, which typify the Triune God as the basic elements of the structure of God’s eternal building—Gen. 2:12; Rev. 21:11, 18-21: Gold typifies God the Father with His divine nature as the base of God’s eternal building—2 Pet. 1:4. Bdellium, a pearl-like material produced from the resin of a tree, typifies the produce of God the Son in His redeeming and life-releasing death and His life-dispensing resurrection as the entry into God’s eternal building—John 19:34; 12:24; cf. Rev. 21:21. Onyx, a precious stone, typifies the produce of God the Spirit with His transforming work for the building up of God’s eternal building—2 Cor. 3:18; Rom. 12:2. This is mentioned by Paul in 1 Cor. 3 and the base of the city of New Jerusalem is constituted of gold, silver and precious stones. 1) New Jerusalem is of pure gold; it is constituted with and full of God’s life and nature. Her appearance and light are like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone (v. 11). The foundations of the wall of the city are adorned with every precious stone, and the first foundation is jasper (v. 19). Revelation 4:2-3 says that the One who is sitting on the throne is like a jasper stone in appearance. Hence, the appearance of the city is God. The city proper refers to its content, which is pure gold; the wall refers to its appearance, which is precious stones. This matches the definition in the Bible. The inward nature of those who are saved is absolutely God’s golden nature, and the outward appearance is precious stones, the appearance of God. The content of the city is gold, and her appearance before the nations is precious stones; she has God’s glorious nature within and God’s glorious image without. 2) Silver signifies the redeeming Christ with all the virtues of His person and work. Today the Son of God is signified in God's building as the silver. With bdellium there was the thought of life secretion only, but with silver there is the thought of redemption, which includes the shedding of blood and the secretion of life. Although pearl is replaced with silver in 1 Corinthians because of the need for redemption, pearl was God's original concept. Consider how a pearl is formed. An oyster living in the sea is wounded by a piece of sand. The oyster secretes life juice around the grain of sand until the sand becomes a pearl. Christ is the oyster who lived in the ocean of this world. We are the grains of sand that wound Him and, after injuring Him, stay at His wound. His life secretes His life essence, enveloping us with it layer upon layer. Eventually, after becoming fully enclosed by this life-secretion, we become a pearl (Matt. 13:46). This is the experience of regeneration. Originally, we were small pieces of sand, but we became pearls as the life juice of Christ enveloped our being. Every gate of the New Jerusalem is a pearl, signifying the entrance into the kingdom of God (Rev. 21:21). The Lord Jesus said that unless we are born anew we cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5; cf. Titus 3:5). We all have been born again and can enter into the kingdom. Furthermore, by becoming pearls, we even become the entrance itself. Today, experiential, we seek the daily experience of the resurrection of Christ subjectively by the bountiful supply of the Spirit (the reality of resurrection) of Jesus Christ that they may be conformed to the image of the firstborn Son of God (Phil. 1:19; Rom. 8:29). We are required to do two things: to experience Christ's death subjectively in our daily walk and also to experience the power of resurrection in our daily walk. 3) Where do precious stones come from? A precious stone is a transformed item. All precious stones originally were of other materials. Some of them were formed into igneous rocks by pressure and heat. Others were formed into sedimentary rocks by pressure and by the flowing of water. All became precious stones. Diamond (Exo. 28:18) is formed out of carbon by heat and pressure. Under extreme pressure and intense heat the carbon becomes a diamond. These are the principles of the transformation of precious stones. We, the believers in Christ, were created by God with dust (Gen. 2:7). Through our regeneration by the Spirit we became stones (John 1:42). When Peter came to the Lord, the Lord told him he was a stone. He was no longer dust. By our growth in the divine life in Christ as the living stone (1 Pet. 2:4), we are transformed into precious stones (1 Cor. 3:12a). This transformation takes place by the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:18). With Christ there is His death and resurrection. With the Spirit there is transformation. God is triune and His intention is to work Himself into us as the gold to be the base. In other words, He works Himself into us to make us divine, golden. But how can God work Himself into us? He does this by Christ's redemption and resurrection and also by the Spirit's transformation. The Father's golden nature is the base. The Son's redemption and resurrection are the steps to work the Triune God into us. Christ died on the cross with the intention of working the Father into His believers as the golden base. Then in resurrection He became the life-giving Spirit to carry out the work of transformation. We may have the base, redemption, and resurrection, but if we do not have transformation we are still not golden. We are dusty, because we were made by God in the old creation. But God works Himself into us as the gold through Christ's redemption and resurrection by the transformation of the Spirit. This is the working of the Triune God to bring Himself into our being and transform us altogether into His image. .............. (This subject is too awesome and a lot to say and share e.g. its furnishing, throne, supply, etc (it's experiential today) .... but I defer to another time .. only if you are really interested ...) How can this compare with going to heaven .... (sigh) here goes the bomb .... Ok you described what New Jerusalem is and how it's formed. I don't really see it this way but either way, what did Jesus save us from? True we do join God in a holy place after Jesus comes again. But before all that, he came the first time to save us right? Why, to save us, to offer us salvation, to redeem us, many words to use here. By what would have been different before he came? I'm asking because people see salvation = going to heaven and I agree with you that it's not, or at least it's the latter part of the picture. I think most important is to see that Jesus came to save us from sin that keep us away from God. Like you mentioned earlier, so that we're not bound to the Law of Moses anymore that judges us guilty for our sins and brings death. Saved us because no amount of animal sacrifice can forgive our sins and make us right with God. So what He really saved us from is the broken relationship between man and God. So that we can become one with God, like before Adam and Eve sinned. True he made alot of promises to for the people who glorify God and he gave alot of warning to the people who don't. But he didn't come down for that, God was already punishing and rewarding people in the past. Even the greatest of the Prophets we're perfect or sinless, so he came to pay the price for all those sins, past present and future, so all the people who have kept themselves holy can reunite with God. Why does he have to do all this complicated steps? I have no idea, it's because he wants to. I think by realizing this, everything else naturally follows. This post has been edited by mumeichan: Apr 18 2011, 10:26 PM
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mumeichan	Apr 18 2011, 10:24 PM Return to original view \| Post #11
Member Senior Member 4,152 posts Joined: May 2005	QUOTE(Aoiota @ Apr 18 2011, 10:19 PM) Yes I am Deadlocks. The fact here was mumeichan was replying to my post, and she misunderstood me that I was trolling, when I was only stating a different idea of Hell. Err, I was replying to your hell and I agree partly with you on that. But the trolling part was a general view for all the people who post in this thread. Sorry. I should have made it clearer. This post has been edited by mumeichan: Apr 18 2011, 10:25 PM
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mumeichan	Apr 19 2011, 10:45 AM Return to original view \| Post #12
Member Senior Member 4,152 posts Joined: May 2005	QUOTE(debbieyss @ Apr 19 2011, 09:02 AM) Yes, I have already thought of that, as I said, I have many many questions on my mind, and that's why you can see me replying your comments right away. Then I have 2 questions here: 1. If hell isn't for christian who has already attained salvation, does it mean what Ps. Philip Mantofa said in his testimony - seeing religious christian in the hell, is a lie? Or an illusion only? 2. If that "Luke 13:28 - weeping and gnashing of teeth" is only indicating self blame, then who are these people that self blaming? And when and where do they self blame? Many commentary says that this verse indicates the believers who do evil and can't enter heaven, so they are weeping and gnashing of teeth. And again, if it's works that determine human's destination, it simply means salvation is not by grace, but by works. If Christ hasn't come back to judge the world, how is there a hell? We really don't know what hell is. Concepts of places and stuff are all simply earthly concepts. You can read the visions prophets see and revelations. They way man sees these things have really no meaning. All the stuff they see only comes when God decides to them and again doesn't have much connection with the concepts we normally have for those things. So whatever hell may be or how God wants to punish people later, it's certainly not something within our understanding. So I do not believe in people who claim to have traveled to hell or see hell. All these kinds of stories bring more division and confusion for Christian, how can it be said to be from God? If it's from God, what glory are they ascribing to God by these stories? Even John who saw in awe and fear of the things to come wrote it in a way we don't understand today. So many people use so many kind of interpretation to read Revelations. The Jew during Jesus time memorized the scripture and knew it my heart yet had no idea that Jesus was the savior that was written about in the scripture. Even the apostles traveling with him did not understand until the time he choose for them to. And for Luke, like I said earlier, if you really want answers, you need to do some historical and language study of the Bible. Look up Gehenna for a brief idea of what I'm talking about and then again, the information on the internet is really a mixed bunch. It's unwise to do haphazard bible study by relying on information from various writeup online and other people's commentaries. And you'll also be face with the choice between literal and analogical interpretations. That's why I feel Bible study should go with prayer cause we depend on God for understanding ultimately. And we're all already saved from sin by God's grace. There's no work need to get this salvation or that can undo it. Jesus came and died and paid the price for our sin. That is so we can be one with God again. Because if the price for sin isn't paid or if our sins are not forgiven, we can be with God. But going to be able to be with God eternally when Jesus comes again, we have to keep ourselves holy because unholy things can't be with a holy God. And God will still judge people for the bad things they do. This is the same for all the people past present and future. Jesus paid the price for the people who lived and died before Him too.
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mumeichan	Apr 20 2011, 11:31 AM Return to original view \| Post #13
Member Senior Member 4,152 posts Joined: May 2005	QUOTE(debbieyss @ Apr 19 2011, 04:47 PM) I know we are to work on the salvation, but how do you know if what you are doing is right? Even each christian has his own justification and judgement, some christian says bow down to idol for certain special occassion is ok, as long as you know your heart is right with God, where some say can not, some still go to pubs oftenly some do not etc... This is also another issue that arouse many arguements among christians. If you are saying salvation is by grace and faith, then those strong faith who eats offered food is ok while to those who has little faith eating offered food is a sin, both parties also correct; if both parties also correct, just the matter how strong one's faith is, then why are there so many arguements? Debbie, that's why we say our God is a living God, not a statue and definitely not a book. We have the writing of the Holy man of God and it was compiled into the Bible we have now. It' serves as our guide and reference point and tells us alot about the nature of God and the ways man before us please God, disobeyed God, was rewarded by God and was punished by God. It has also prophesies which we understand and which we don't. Like I said, salvation restored our relationship with God. In Acts, all the believers were given the Holy Spirit, which essentially means God is living in us. Before Jesus, only 1 chosen person was given the Holy Spirit at any time, like King Saul and King David and they works wonders yet still displeased God in many ways. Now that same Spirit is in us exercising its wonder and authority, but we still falter. So I understand your worry about knowing what's right or wrong, I used to seek a fixed set of rules to live my life and thought that I'd just need to tick off all the conditions on some check list and go to heaven. But it doesn't work like that. That's going back to the time of the Law of Moses, where God gave these people a law to follow because they were so stubborn and didn't want to please God. Take some time and read Mathew 19, where Jesus teaches about divorce. We see that even though divorce was kind of allowed in the Law of Moses, it did not please God. Read Deuteronomy 24 to see what it says in the Law of Moses. It's not a matter about both being correct. With food, eating whatever food doesn't make you a better or worse person and doesn't bring you closer or further from God. Consuming things that have already been offered to idols too doesn't mean anything really. However, we love God very much and we're not bring glory to him by eating things that have been sacrificed to idols infront of people. And if we have alot of others food, we can show our respect for him by not eating food offered to idols even if we're alone. But the Bible speaks out strong against any form or idol worship. And if someone who believe in God thinks that it's really wrong to eat this food when it's not, he might be affected if he seen another believer eating food offered to idols. That wouldn't bring glory to God and it's not helping our brothers in Christ. So it's not a good things to do that. See all these things weren't preach in the context of going to heaven or hell, it was preached in the context of living for God. That's why I don't like quoting scriptures cause it takes the whole context of the book or letter it's written in away. So why is there so much arguments among Christians? It's because we reject the power of God. We reject that God can guide us. We reject that God is a living God. We want to go back to the legalistic past which Jesus showed wasn't the way to please God. So how do we please God? First is to know that God is real and he is really God, all powerful over everything. Know that God isn't just a text in some book or a set of rules like a computer program that is going to run on the final day and separate good and evil into heaven or hell. This kind of conviction requires the grace of God, seek it and God will give it to you. I guarantee you no argument will convince you that God truly exist and this is the right God. It's something you have to experience spiritually and you will be fully convinced. Then realize that you have been saved from sin by Jesus Christ. From there build up a relationship through prayer and Bible study. Bible study without prayer is dead, the Bible has only so much and isn't the book of answers to everything question on earth. Even wondered why some people are like so passionate about their faith? It's because they've come to love God. It takes time, but when you seek an active relationship with God and come to know him more and more, you'll love him. And because you love him you want to do everything to please him. You will feel joy and not guilt when you do something that pleases God. You will be sure and not doubtful when you do something to please him. If anyone wants to established a set of rules to follow, it will come to no end. The scripture isn't meant to set up more rules to follow. How much clothes should be wear according to the scripture? If we wear an inch too short, is it a sin, or a cm too short or an mm too short? If one says we can't eat offered to idols, how do they decides what idols are? What happens if they don't know the food was offered to idols. If they call people to give up 1/10 of their earning to the Lord based on the Law or Moses, how are we going to calculate that. Should we use pre-tax income amount? What exactly constitutes income? How do we give it to the Lord? Through a local Church? Does donating to the Red Cross make it giving to God? I tell you there's no end and you'd really be using the fringes of logic to pull out scriptural justification for all these questions. If someone thinks another Christian is doing something that displeases God, he can explain it to the other person according to his convictions. But he should out of the desire to please God and that the other person may please God, and not to set the rules straight for heaven or hell. Read the letter of the apostles and Paul, are they writing to set the set the rules down for heaven or hell or are they writing so that we can live a life set apart for God? This post has been edited by mumeichan: Apr 20 2011, 12:05 PM
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mumeichan	Apr 20 2011, 11:59 AM Return to original view \| Post #14
Member Senior Member 4,152 posts Joined: May 2005	QUOTE(debbieyss @ Apr 20 2011, 11:26 AM) Said is easier than done. Everyone also say the same thing. But when one christian said he is fine to drink some alcohol, how do other christians react? There is only condemnation, discouragement, make every effort to put you down, or deny the fact what you have "heard" of God saying during your quiet time is not from God and telling you "Oh no, God is not like that one... You have to do this do that etc". This illustrates my point. Drinking is definitely not wrong. Even Jesus drank. He even changed water into wine for a wedding feast, and that is probably the most well known miracle. But then Paul goes on to tell Timothy in 1 Timothy 3 that elders in the church shouldn't drink too much. If other Christians feel that drinking is not OK and we know it, why do we drink? Are we helping the other brothers and sisters in Christ by drinking and showing them that drinking is OK? Read 1 Corinthians 14: 26-39. Paul is talking about how Church meetings should help the Church. Take note of verse 36, right after he says women should keep silent during church meetings. He says "Did God's teaching come from you? Or are you the only ones who have received that teaching? Read it in context of the whole of 1 Corinthians and you'll see that really no one us are the only people who understands God's teacher or the only person God's speaks too. So we can be vary of such majestic claims by anyone. And we can also stop thinking that we're the only right ones. I'm being corrected everyday by Christians and non-Christians and by people who have little and who have alot of faith. By people who have deep scriptural knowledge and by those who have shallow. True, people do condemn others all the time, but they're not the models we look up too, we look at God, at Jesus. Also read 1 Corinthians 10:23-33 and 6:12-20. Paul teaches us how we should live our lives for God. He starts out by saying "I am allowed to do all things." But all things are not good for me to do. This post has been edited by mumeichan: Apr 20 2011, 12:01 PM
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mumeichan	Apr 20 2011, 12:27 PM Return to original view \| Post #15
Member Senior Member 4,152 posts Joined: May 2005	QUOTE(debbieyss @ Apr 20 2011, 12:14 PM) If other Christians feel that drinking is not OK and we know it, why do we drink? Are we helping the other brothers and sisters in Christ by drinking and showing them that drinking is OK? --> So as you said, we should look up to Jesus. Jesus drank, so it means we can also drink. Simple. So there's no need to say we are not helping other brothers and sisters in Christ when we drink. No, you got me wrong. I mean we look up to Jesus. Jesus drank, and drinking was common at the time. But it don't mean it's a simple fast rule we can drink and we don't need to care about everything else. No one thought it was wrong at that time Jesus was drinking. But then read the parts in 1 Corinthians that I mentioned above. We can drink and we can do alot of things. But when we do these things, we should ask ourselves are we doing this for God? Is it bringing glory to God? Is it helping our brothers in Christ? Or we discouraging them? We have the mindset that we know it's OK to drink so we drink and we can prove everyone wrong. It might not be a sin to drink, but if it serves no purpose for God, we shouldn't indulge in it. If it's detrimental to the faith of our brothers in Christ don't. Why don't, because we don't want to. Not because it's a black and white rule. In others words QUOTE --> So as you said, we should look up to Jesus. Jesus drank, so it means we can also drink. ~~Simple~~ not so simple. So there no IS a need to ~~say~~ think if we are not helping other brothers and sisters in Christ when we drink. Another after thought, this doesn't just pertain to the things our society passes some moral judgment on. Is folding origamis a sin? I don't think anyone, secular or not would think folding origamis is a sin. Now should we fold origamis? Ok yea let's fold origamis, nothing wrong with that. It's kinda fun or some people, some people can make really beautiful crafts out of it. Now let's say I want to devote my whole life to origami, I'll do nothing but fold origamis all day, making new creations all the time. So when I decide to do this, I should first think, am I doing it for my pleasure or for God's pleasure? Am I helping anyone in the faith with this? Is this the way I'm fulfilling my call to be a witness for Christ? Am I thinking about Jesus when I make this decision? Is that anything from doing origami all day that I might use for God's purpose? This post has been edited by mumeichan: Apr 20 2011, 12:29 PM
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mumeichan	Apr 20 2011, 12:53 PM Return to original view \| Post #16
Member Senior Member 4,152 posts Joined: May 2005	QUOTE(mekboyz @ Apr 20 2011, 12:34 PM) dey unker i used to be a hindu before i became rational. and part of hinduism is about prostating to idols. so are you saying that 1 billion+ people are wrong? Those 1 billion plus people are not worshiping our God. If they don't believe in Christianity in the first place, there's no use to use our standards to judge them right and wrong. The right and wrong is between a person and God. So now you are a rational. So while you were a Hindu you were irrational right? So you're saying those 1 billion + people are irrational? This post has been edited by mumeichan: Apr 20 2011, 12:55 PM
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mumeichan	Apr 20 2011, 03:46 PM Return to original view \| Post #17
Member Senior Member 4,152 posts Joined: May 2005	QUOTE(debbieyss @ Apr 20 2011, 01:49 PM) [/spoiler] If we really want to think if what we do would glorify God, then we all should avoid in doing many many things eg. ake public transport instead of personal car to decrease air pollution. Do you take public transport to college and to work? Even if you posting this during your working hours, or during the time when you should be working on your own college study, is does not help brothers and sisters in Christ, it is not glorifying God. This is also the same as you are asked to follow the no-ending-laws. You can put them down in a piece of paper to track how much you have repented but are you happy? You are struggling to be happy which boils down to be list of laws! A church's pastors whom I know personal did drink wine during a dinner and that dinner was also attended by other non-christians and new christians. So would you go up to them and tell these pastors do not drink? Would this arouse conflicts and unhappy circumstances during the dinner? This is just an example only. What i'm trying to say is that why and what is the point if we just look into other people's flaws? Keep what is right to yourselves and don't force others to do it, live in peace with everyone. Actually I do, I cycle two miles a day back and forth and around school. I even cycle to the supermarket to do groceries. However I'm doing it to save money that can be better spent on other things. I'm not convicted to decrease pollution but I'm sure others are. It's 3 am now almost 4am where I am and I'm posting this because you were asking question and I hoped to share some of my view and some passages in the bible that related to your question. Besides, it's really not up to you or anyone else to judge what I am doing as glorifying God or not, because as I said it's a relationship between me and God. I said we should glorify God and you pick on something I am doing and say it's not glorifying God. Whether am am trying to glorify God or not depends on my intentions right? And we were on the topic on how to decide what is right or wrong. My reply was essentially that if we love God, we try to glorify him. We're not ticking off a checklist if right and wrong or the right way to glorify or the wrong way etc. Glorifying God doesn't mean making everyone happy. Jesus and the apostles didn't make everyone happy. In fact they made alot of people angry and invited alot of persecution for the themselves. Glory is given to God by his standards, not ours. Anyone can find at least something wrong with anything by using some arbitrary, secular or not. As good example is what you just did. To me I was trying to help you understand Christianity better and that was my way of serving God. You saw it as using my time that I should be studying and that's not glorifying God. All the "many things" that you said we should not do are things based on arbitrary standards. What should be decrease pollution? That answer to that lies upon many arguments and standard or morality. My answer was that one should seek out a relationship with God and be guided by the Holy Spirit as to what he should do and should not do. Lets God personally guide the person. What matters in the end is how God judges and now how the world judges a person by any worldly standard. I don't know what no-ending-laws I am following. I also don't see how putting down anything on a piece of paper is going to track how much I repented. I don't think there's a quantity or depth to repentance. I'm am happy because I've come to know God. I also don't see how I'm certainly struggling to be happy or how that translates into a list of laws either. I've a feeling you're not bothered to read what I wrote or the passages I pointed out. If the Church pastor knows that drinking wine is going to invite condemnation to himself and the church, then it would not be wise to drink it. And if such a thing did happen in the Church I attend or the local Christian community I am in, I will talk to the person. I can't and I won't force anything down the person nor am I judging the person. He can hear me and whatever he does it's his own decision. If he feels there is nothing wrong with it in the end, that's his conclusion. I can't read a person's mind or measure his faith and I can't know whether he does what he does or God for not. That is between him and God. And this applies for any other situation as well. You can read the Bible yourself and you'll see that we are to live a life to glorify God. As to how and what glorifies God, I nor anyone else possesses the rulebook for that because it's a matter of the relationship with the believer and God. God knows what he wants, so we should be talking to God. So it's pointless if you throw out an example and ask if that is glorifying God. I'm telling you to ask God. Even if there wasn't God, humans aren't capable of living in peace with everyone. Even by completely secular means, there is no way world could become a place where everyone keeps what's right for himself and not force it unto others. This is because what's right for someone can end up wrong another person. Social dynamics dictate that no such egalitarian system can exist. Fundamentally I believe that as Christians, we want to let the world know about Jesus. But we can't change people into Christians, it has to come from their own conviction and God's grace. As to looking for faults withing the practice of Christianity, looking for faults isn't something we should be doing. But if we see a fellow believe going astray, we would want to guide him back. That's doesn't mean we're forcing our view unto him, which I say it's wrong. There's no way we can force something which is a matter of faith onto another person. That would just lead to external compliance. Finally as usual I'm not interested to argue over our viewpoints. I replied to some of our post because you seemed to be looking for answers to Christianity for yourself and I shared come of the things I know and some of my thoughts on looking for answers yourself. I'm surprised at the last sentence because I thought you were asking about the conditions of going to heaven and hell and not about find flaws in people or living in peace with everyone. You don't have to agree with all the things I said. It's your prerogative in the end to find the answers yourself. If you want to seek God, you can keep an open mind, seek God, read the Bible and you can pray. You can read all the philosophies of the world and all the other religious books too. You can ask people to share their experience and knowledge with you. But if your pursuit is not to find God, but to come in with a set ideal and and find every part that disagrees with you, Christianity or not, you'll just end up arguing with people over things you disagree and nothing comes out of that. You won't find God if you're looking for an explaining or interpretation of Christianity that will suit all your ideals. I can say it doesn't suit all my ideals either. If you don't agree with the way God does something, I can't help you with that. God decided it to be that way. This post has been edited by mumeichan: Apr 20 2011, 04:11 PM
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mumeichan	Apr 24 2011, 01:10 PM Return to original view \| Post #18
Member Senior Member 4,152 posts Joined: May 2005	Let's be happy as we remember Jesus rising again today. Happy Easter. Unshackle yourself from the chains of restraint and shout and sing praises to the Lord today. If you're happy and you know it praise the Lord. :clap :clap This post has been edited by mumeichan: Apr 24 2011, 01:11 PM
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mumeichan	Aug 4 2011, 04:27 AM Return to original view \| Post #19
Member Senior Member 4,152 posts Joined: May 2005	If anyone thinks that he has the right interpretation of the bible and that everyone else who is reading the bible as it is can't understand what god wants to reveals to that person by reading the bible, please write and publish "the bible as rewritten by <insert name>"
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