Doesn't know there is a christian thread here. So cool

Let's just say I do not believe the "Hell" most people have their impression about.

This is because of that the idea of polarisation between heaven and hell were only advocated so much in the Middle ages, but never the early chronology depicted in the Bible.

The lack of advocacy of the disciples of Jesus of how heaven and hell which were polarised compared to the ones who advocated it in the dark ages GOT ME REALLY SUSPICIOUS.

I believe in Jesus Christ, but I do not believe the "Hell" that many people had impression on.

Call it instinct, but I do not find the advocacy of issues to be believable, because those who are in wisdom will understand that it is only INSTANT GRATIFICATION through MARKETING.

This post has been edited by Deadlocks: Apr 18 2011, 06:35 AM

Heaven and hell is indeed a topic with a lot of confusion. A reason for it is because the people who translated the Bible translated many things to mean hell. I would say one would need a few read through of the Bible and knowledge about ancient Hebrew, Greek, Latin and understanding about early Judaism to get the idea of how the idea of hell changed over time. And also one has to consider why Bible translators choose to translate the Bible in a certain way. We can use a translated Bible, and say screw the interpretations of the translators and proceed to reverse-translate it using haphazard knowledge. And for this very reason, I believe such topical studies cannot be done through listening to people lecturing about it. It's something that must be initiated with clear purpose of understanding God more and willing to invest alot of time into it with one or more partners who are not afraid to challenge doctrines, yet willing to understand how the doctrines come into place in the beginning.

Personally I'm with aiyume that this should be a chat thread and serious theological stuff should go to RWI. I also think that atheistic stuff should go to RWI too. It's not quite appropriate to have part of this to be relax and chit chat, then comes some serious theological discussion and some contemptuous from atheist.

For whatever reason you do not believe in God and whatever your motivation is to enlighten us that God does not exist, this really isn't the place for it. And if you do not believe in God, you do not have to put us down by being silly here. And if you seriously think you have the duty to prove to us that God does not exist, then being more respectful might be the first step you want to consider. Otherwise, you're simply trolling in the thread.


This post has been edited by mumeichan: Apr 18 2011, 07:23 AM

it cuts both ways mang
LIKEWISE, for whatever reason theists do not see eye to eye with atheists' stand on God's non-existence and whatever your motivation (however good it seems at first - always turns into atheist bashing in the end) is to enlighten us that God does exist, Atheism tereds opened by theists for the sole purpose of bashing and ridicule or using pseudo-Science like Intelligent Design as justification tool (the various holybooks are enough) only serve to increase the disillutionment and hate even more. We are sure you believe in God and understand why, you do not have to put us down just because we are different. Just as religious bigots exists so those overly indulgent atheists that cross the border of civility. And i'm sure you owe it to your God to spread the good news especially to non-believers i.e. atheists and whatnot, then being more understanding might be the first step you'd want to consider. in /k trolls beget trolls something /k tards have grown accustomed to unless a MIRACLE happens.

'So many gods, so many creeds, so many paths that wind and wind while just the art of being kind is all the sad world needs' ~ Ella Wheeler Wilcox

Thank you very much

I totally agree with you. It cuts both ways. Theist doing atheist basing is not acceptable either. It's stupid. Like I said, I totally see where how people can get really passionate about atheism and how it leads to ridiculing too. I lost my faith once and I lost it because I began to subscribe to the very arguments I was against. Theist, atheist and whatever other kinds of grouping always will lead to disparaging of other groups that hold conflicting opinions. Sometimes people don't do it intentionally, it just snowball and people bandwagon on. I can't eliminate trolls, but I can make a stand so that people who might not want to troll in the first place don't.

meh, super boring.

also jesus uses hacks to win

Wow, you are fast in pointing it out (I guess you might have thought of it) I alluded that in "Of course, there is the matter of the reward of the kingdom / dispensational punishments in the 1000 years millennium, this has nothing do with salvation and going to hell." It is a large subject.

Saved but Not Receiving the Kingdom Reward

In the New Testament, from Matthew to Revelation, there is a line of thought concerning reward, and we would do well to pay attention to it. In Matthew 5 and 6 the Lord Jesus speaks repeatedly concerning reward (5:12, 46; 6:1-2, 5, 16). In 1 Corinthians 3:8 Paul says, “Each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.” Then in verse 14 he goes on to say, “If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.” In Revelation 22:12 the Lord Jesus says, “Behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me to render to each one as his work is.”

There is a great difference between salvation and reward. “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works that no one should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9). This clearly and emphatically reveals that eternal salvation is altogether by grace through faith, having nothing to do with our works. Nothing that we have done, are doing, or will do can affect our eternal salvation (a gift) which is absolutely a matter of God’s grace (a gift) through our faith (a gift) in the Lord Jesus. God has imparted to us the ability to believe in the Lord Jesus, and by believing we are saved and have life inHis name (Acts 16:31; John 20:31).

Once we have been saved, we cannot be lost; that is, we cannot suffer eternal perdition. Those who have been saved by grace through faith will never perish (John 10:28-29). Our eternal salvation is forever secured by the will of God, by the selection and calling of God, by the love and grace of God, by the righteousness of God, by the covenant of God, by the power of God, by the life of God, by God Himself, by the redemption of Christ, by the power of Christ, and by the promise of Christ. We have been born of God, and we cannot be unborn. By faith we have been joined to the Lord to become one spirit with Him in a marvelous organic union. This joining and union are eternally secure in the divine life. Regarding eternal salvation in relation to the kingdom re- ward, we must avoid extreme theological views. One extreme view insists that we are saved eternally and that we can lose neither our salvation nor the kingdom reward. The other extreme view claims that salvation is conditional upon good behavior and that we can lose both our salvation and the kingdom reward. The truth in the Bible is balanced: eternal salvation is by grace through faith, and it cannot be lost; the kingdom reward involves righteousness and works, and it can be forfeited.

A Reward according to Our Works

Hebrews 10:35 says, “Do not cast away therefore your boldness, which has great reward.” This reward is the kingdom reward, which is something in addition to eternal salvation. Whereas eternal salvation is by grace through faith, having nothing to do with our works, the kingdom reward is given for our work as believers in Christ. According to 1 Corinthians 3:8 we will be re-warded according to our labor, for the Lord will give to us according to our work (Rev. 22:12). Although we are saved, we may not receive the kingdom reward because we are devoid of the work which the Lord can approve (1 Cor. 3:15; Matt. 7:21-23). If we do not labor by the Lord’s all-sufficient grace to carry out His economy (1 Cor. 15:10; 2 Cor. 12:9) and if our work does not remain after it has been tried by fire, we will not receive the reward of the kingdom. It is contrary to the Scriptures to teach that all believers will receive the kingdom reward no matter how they live and work after they are saved. The basic truth concerning the kingdom reward is this— receiving the kingdom reward is not a matter of God’s saving grace but of our subsequent work. If we are faithful servants in this age, we will enjoy the kingdom with the Lord in the coming age (Matt. 25:21, 23). If we are not faithful, we will suffer loss and undergo some kind of dispensational punishment (v. 30).

The kingdom reward will be decided at the judgment seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10), where the Lord will “bring to light the hidden things of darkness and make manifest the counsels of the hearts” (1 Cor. 4:5). At His coming back, the Lord Jesus will set up His judgment seat and judge all the believers with respect to their life and work. There, at the judgment seat, the decision will be made regarding the kingdom reward, with the Lord, the righteous Judge, determining who will receive the kingdom reward (2 Tim. 4:8). Those who receive this reward will enter into the joy of the Lord and reign with Him as His co-kings, sitting with Him on His throne. This will be the fulfillment of the Lord’s promise in Revelation 3:21: “He who overcomes, to him I will give to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat with My Father on His throne.”

Moses looked away to the kingdom reward (Heb. 11:26) and Paul endeavored to obtain it (1 Cor. 9:24-27). Throughout the course of his Christian life, Paul was running the race for the kingdom reward, not having the assurance that he had laid hold of this reward. Only at the end of his life, immediately before his martyrdom, did he know for certain that the crown of righteousness had been prepared for him and for all who love the Lord’s appearing (2 Tim. 4:7-8). With Paul as our pattern (1 Tim. 1:16), we should run the race set before us, not trusting in ourselves or assuming that all is well simply because we are saved. We may receive the kingdom reward or we may not. For all of us, this matter is pending the Lord’s decision at His judgment seat. The Lord’s word concerning the kingdom reward is serious and weighty. It is truly a word of righteousness...

This balanced understanding solves both extreme views: Calvinism vs Arminism. It will help you now to understand passages especially in Matthew 24 and 25, other portions of Matthews and Hebrews. (Your question) Weeping indicates regret, and gnashing of teeth indicates self blame.

If we cooperate with God's supplying grace, we will mature in life in the church age, and this earlier maturity in life will constitute a prize with which the Lord will reward us at His coming back. However, those who do not mature in life in the church age will not be ready at the Lord's coming back to enter into the millennial kingdom and share in the divine blessings of that age as a prize. Therefore, during the millennial kingdom their names will be erased from the book of life. After being disciplined by the Lord and growing in life unto maturity during the millennial kingdom, they will share in the divine blessings in the stage of eternity. They did not cooperate with the Lord in the church age, will be dispensationally disciplined by the Lord during the millennial kingdom and will miss the divine blessings in that stage. However, the names of those who have lived an overcoming life in the church age will remain in the book of life during the coming age of the kingdom.

To participate in the coming kingdom is also to gain our soul, to save our soul, and to enjoy the salvation of our soul. If today we love only the Lord and not our soul, that is, our self, and if we live by Him and according to His standard, then when He comes back He will reward us with the kingdom. In the kingdom we shall have no problems, sorrows, or sufferings in our soul, for at that time we shall gain our soul, we shall save our soul, and we shall enjoy the salvation of our soul. However, if we are defeated believers, we shall be punished during the kingdom age, and that punishment will involve our soul, with the gnashing of teeth as a sign of suffering in our soul. (Matthew 16).

The question: will you be gained by the Lord in these 70-80 years or be perfected during the 1000 years? .... The good news, all will be matured as the New Jerusalem after the millennium.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Apr 18 2011, 04:05 PM

ohm and you believe there exists a heaven?

tell me, why do you say its boring?

There's hell, hades and Lake of Fire. Take your pick

You're not different. You're just not being indifferent enough to our views on your kind through our bible. Why should it bother you if we look at disbelievers as "lost souls" if you do not even subscribe to our beliefs? K.P.C buat apa?

Haha, someone brave enough to ask. Yes, salvation is not "going to heaven" (but there is heaven and lake of fire ...). Mind you, this statement will riles a lot of feathers and thrashed years of Christian "traditions".... and offends a lot of dear brothers and sister here ...

The ultimate consummation of everything in the Bible is the New Jerusalem. What is the New Jerusalem in a nutshell:

a) it is a mingling, a constitution, of the Triune God with His chosen and redeemed people”

b) it is a composition of God’s chosen, redeemed, regenerated, sanctified, transformed, and glorified people who have been deified

c) the ultimate consummation of God’s complete salvation —the crystallization of the union and mingling of God with man, the processed and consummated Triune God with His regenerated, transformed, conformed, and glorified tripartite elect.

The New Jerusalem is not a physical city, as commonly believed by Christians. Rather, the book of Revelation indicates that the New Jerusalem is a divine and spiritual sign. The revelation of the entire book of Revelation is mainly made known to us by signs (Rev. 1:1) symbolizing important persons and things, such as the golden lampstands in 1:12, signifying the churches bearing the shining testimony of Jesus Christ; the stars in 1:16, signifying the bright and shining messengers of the churches; the mysterious Babylon the Great in 17:5, signifying religious Rome; and the bride in 19:7, signifying the overcoming saints as the spouse of Christ. Hence, the New Jerusalem also should be a sign, signifying the ultimate consummation of the divine Trinity dispensing Himself into His chosen people.

The Tabernacle of God
The New Jerusalem has two natures, humanity and divinity. According to its humanity, the New Jerusalem is the tabernacle of God among men-the dwelling place of God in His humanity among men on the earth (Rev. 21:3). In the Bible, the tabernacle is a human dwelling place. The New Jerusalem is a human dwelling place because it is constituted with humanity. It is God's human dwelling place on earth. John 1:14 says that God was incarnated in the flesh to tabernacle among men. He is God, but He has become a man. He partook of humanity as His nature, so He dwells in humanity.

The Temple of God
According to its divinity, the New Jerusalem is the temple of God as the dwelling place of His redeemed elect (Rev. 21:22). The holy city is the temple of God because it is divine. It is the temple of God, yet it is the dwelling place of His redeemed. How could this be? Because this is God's temple, the dweller must be divine, but what about us? Are we divine or human? According to its humanity, the New Jerusalem is the tabernacle, but God dwells in the tabernacle. God can dwell in a human dwelling place because He has become a man. According to the divinity of the New Jerusalem, it is a temple for God to dwell in. If you are only human and not divine, you cannot dwell in the temple. We human beings can dwell in a divine temple because we have been made God in life and in nature but not in the Godhead. The New Jerusalem is a mutual abode. According to its humanity, it is a human tabernacle. According to its divinity, it is a divine temple. It is a human dwelling place, but the Dweller is God. How can God dwell in a human place? Because He became a man. In the same way, how can we humans dwell in God's temple? Because we have been made God. This is the mutual abiding of God and man (John 14:20)

The Human Wife of the Redeeming God
According to its humanity, the New Jerusalem is the human wife (with the divine life and nature) of the Lamb- the redeeming God (21:2, 9). This human wife can marry a divine Person because she has the divine life and nature. This qualifies her to match the redeeming God. On the one hand, she is human. On the other hand, she is divine. Because she is human, she can be the redeeming God's human wife. Because she is divine, she can marry Him, a divine Person.

The Divine Husband of God's Redeemed Elect
According to its divinity, it is the divine Husband (the redeeming God in His consummated embodiment, Christ, with the human life and nature) of God's redeemed elect. The wife is human, and the Husband is divine. How can a human wife marry a divine Person? Because she has the divine Person's divine nature and life. How can the same entity also be a husband? Because the New Jerusalem is divine. The divine God is a part of its constituent. Therefore, on the one hand, it is a wife. On the other hand, it is a husband. The New Jerusalem is the wife according to its humanity and the husband according to its divinity. But as the divine Husband, the New Jerusalem has the human life and nature. In its humanity and in its divinity it is both a mutual abode and a couple, a wife and a husband.

You will notice its base is gold, silver and precious stone. The river going forth from Garden of Eden in Genesis issues in three precious materials, which typify the Triune God as the basic elements of the structure of God’s eternal building—Gen. 2:12; Rev. 21:11, 18-21:

Gold typifies God the Father with His divine nature as the base of God’s eternal building—2 Pet. 1:4.
Bdellium, a pearl-like material produced from the resin of a tree, typifies the produce of God the Son in His redeeming and life-releasing death and His life-dispensing resurrection as the entry into God’s eternal building—John 19:34; 12:24; cf. Rev. 21:21.
Onyx, a precious stone, typifies the produce of God the Spirit with His transforming work for the building up of God’s eternal building—2 Cor. 3:18; Rom. 12:2.

This is mentioned by Paul in 1 Cor. 3 and the base of the city of New Jerusalem is constituted of gold, silver and precious stones.

1) New Jerusalem is of pure gold; it is constituted with and full of God’s life and nature. Her appearance and light are like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone (v. 11). The foundations of the wall of the city are adorned with every precious stone, and the first foundation is jasper (v. 19). Revelation 4:2-3 says that the One who is sitting on the throne is like a jasper stone in appearance. Hence, the appearance of the city is God. The city proper refers to its content, which is pure gold; the wall refers to its appearance, which is precious stones. This matches the definition in the Bible. The inward nature of those who are saved is absolutely God’s golden nature, and the outward appearance is precious stones, the appearance of God. The content of the city is gold, and her appearance before the nations is precious stones; she has God’s glorious nature within and God’s glorious image without.

2) Silver signifies the redeeming Christ with all the virtues of His person and work. Today the Son of God is signified in God's building as the silver. With bdellium there was the thought of life secretion only, but with silver there is the thought of redemption, which includes the shedding of blood and the secretion of life. Although pearl is replaced with silver in 1 Corinthians because of the need for redemption, pearl was God's original concept.

Consider how a pearl is formed. An oyster living in the sea is wounded by a piece of sand. The oyster secretes life juice around the grain of sand until the sand becomes a pearl. Christ is the oyster who lived in the ocean of this world. We are the grains of sand that wound Him and, after injuring Him, stay at His wound. His life secretes His life essence, enveloping us with it layer upon layer. Eventually, after becoming fully enclosed by this life-secretion, we become a pearl (Matt. 13:46). This is the experience of regeneration. Originally, we were small pieces of sand, but we became pearls as the life juice of Christ enveloped our being. Every gate of the New Jerusalem is a pearl, signifying the entrance into the kingdom of God (Rev. 21:21). The Lord Jesus said that unless we are born anew we cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5; cf. Titus 3:5). We all have been born again and can enter into the kingdom. Furthermore, by becoming pearls, we even become the entrance itself.

Today, experiential, we seek the daily experience of the resurrection of Christ subjectively by the bountiful supply of the Spirit (the reality of resurrection) of Jesus Christ that they may be conformed to the image of the firstborn Son of God (Phil. 1:19; Rom. 8:29). We are required to do two things: to experience Christ's death subjectively in our daily walk and also to experience the power of resurrection in our daily walk.

3) Where do precious stones come from? A precious stone is a transformed item. All precious stones originally were of other materials. Some of them were formed into igneous rocks by pressure and heat. Others were formed into sedimentary rocks by pressure and by the flowing of water. All became precious stones. Diamond (Exo. 28:18) is formed out of carbon by heat and pressure. Under extreme pressure and intense heat the carbon becomes a diamond. These are the principles of the transformation of precious stones.

We, the believers in Christ, were created by God with dust (Gen. 2:7). Through our regeneration by the Spirit we became stones (John 1:42). When Peter came to the Lord, the Lord told him he was a stone. He was no longer dust. By our growth in the divine life in Christ as the living stone (1 Pet. 2:4), we are transformed into precious stones (1 Cor. 3:12a).

This transformation takes place by the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:18). With Christ there is His death and resurrection. With the Spirit there is transformation. God is triune and His intention is to work Himself into us as the gold to be the base. In other words, He works Himself into us to make us divine, golden. But how can God work Himself into us? He does this by Christ's redemption and resurrection and also by the Spirit's transformation. The Father's golden nature is the base. The Son's redemption and resurrection are the steps to work the Triune God into us. Christ died on the cross with the intention of working the Father into His believers as the golden base. Then in resurrection He became the life-giving Spirit to carry out the work of transformation.

We may have the base, redemption, and resurrection, but if we do not have transformation we are still not golden. We are dusty, because we were made by God in the old creation. But God works Himself into us as the gold through Christ's redemption and resurrection by the transformation of the Spirit. This is the working of the Triune God to bring Himself into our being and transform us altogether into His image.

..............


(This subject is too awesome and a lot to say and share e.g. its furnishing, throne, supply, etc (it's experiential today) .... but I defer to another time .. only if you are really interested ...)

How can this compare with going to heaven .... (sigh) here goes the bomb ....

pehkay, lu tarak kerja meh? monday yet u type so long... lolz

ditto your kind

sure thing, hellboy.

great, biatchieangel

This post has been edited by hotjake: Apr 18 2011, 06:09 PM

humans cant be angel

does everybody in heaven get a pair of wings?

really lazy wanna walk la

you dont need wings

Proton cars will ferry u around.

i heard hell is where all the cool people hang out. is that true?

yup you might just fit in nicely..