Sup gamers! Not sure if there is anyone here that can answer these questions but i'll try my luck anyways.

Recently, I've been playing so many PC and console games and started thinking how the gaming industry has evolved to such great extents, so much so that games are being pushed out so fast and the quality and story of a game is comparable to even that of movies and TV series. There are so many great game developers now and some new ones are coming up in the indie scene. Which leaves me thinking, when is Malaysia ever gonna reach that level?

With that in mind, how does one actually start out? What do you need? How much will it cost to run a game company?
And if we already have local game developers, why have they not earn a place alongside big names like Obsidian Entertainment, Visceral Games, Naughty Dog, and so on. Don't get me wrong, developing a game involves tremendous amount of hard work and patience. But I think Malaysia has some brilliant minds and if given the opportunity, could reach that level some day, if not sooner. Not to mention that some of our colleges and universities are already offering courses in game designing, 3D development and what not.

Anywho, just thinking out loud. Would appreciate the opinions shared here. And who knows, maybe opportunities might be made here and that one day, a game development company could be formed, and we'd come up with an awesome game that the whole world will know of. Just sayin'

RM2 million cash wil be enough to start a company designing games.

Call me if u hv the cash.


Tx

This post has been edited by rattan: Jan 10 2011, 12:45 AM

we do have a local codemaster team here, but they focus on the art side

and local devs would need to start small with indie games before they join the big boys

I program iPhone games for a small company. Always wanted to work in the games industry.

If you want to go Indie (one or few developers) you can save a lot of money. But it's also tough, you need to be talented and make an original interesting game to make money.

And how long does it take for you to develop an iPhone game generally? I know the duration and scope of work depends on the game itself. But just need an estimate. I too have wanted to work in the games industry. Perhaps now is a good time.

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Added on January 10, 2011, 2:17 amYeah I do see that trend going on. And that's probably the most practical way. Considering that path at the moment.

This post has been edited by Dogma18: Jan 10 2011, 02:17 AM

I'm trying my luck too.. I already have a company..kinda..

For mobile gaming, devs usually have to have a shorter turn around time. They probably develop games in a month or so the most. The games are sold at a very low price point hence they have to keep development costs low and development times short. It's just the nature of the mobile gaming market.

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Added on January 10, 2011, 2:32 amThere is a reason why the west has so many good game designer. They make games. End of story. By the time they think about setting up their own studio they would have got a lot of experience and know how. It is extremely vital to just start making games. And no...it's not that difficult. As long as you have some basic programming knowledge you can pick up some pretty easy to use tools to make games. What's difficult is... well, you'll see for yourself when you start making them. I don't want to spoil it for you.

This post has been edited by frags: Jan 10 2011, 02:32 AM

Here's the thing, you can't start up a games development house just by thinking "I want to make games". You gotta have a plan beyond just the idea of just making games.

You gotta have direction, purpose and proper management to make sure that you can develop a game because it IS a serious undertaking.

So far, I think the only local studios that have done anything original was Phoenix Studios (Of Fung Wan Online) and they have since long closed shop.

I hear so many people say they want to make games but when asked for details and other pertinent information, they just come out blank.

All it needs is an idea and the desire to execute that idea. If you don't have that then your brand new Malaysian games studio will just be destined to do kiddie ports for big games or asset production.

So, the obvious route would be, the indie route. Plan out the game you intend to make. Think of the tools and platform you're going to be using and then see if you can do it yourself or hire someone if need be. The point is TAKE INITIATIVE. Nobody's going to hold your hand to make a game and if you want to be a proper games development house, you HAVE to start at the individual level first. Just look at notch (Minecraft) and Chris Park (AI War). Both these fellas started out solo, but once they became established, then sought to expand their efforts into a proper business.

Alternatively, there's always the modding method (Which is very high risk with little reward). Start a mod team. Again you'll need to have a game in mind to make before embarking on this as well... Except that since you're building a mod, its a lot easier and cheaper since you don't have to pay anyone. Make one that's successful enough and then you've got a shot at commercializing it. Just ask Tripwire (Red Orchestra, Killing Floor) and Black Cat Games (Alien Swarm).

Wanting a game studio for the sake of having a game studio to your name just sounds foolish... You'll need far more than that... Get that, then you've got a good headstart over everyone else.

heh, H@H@ may sound harsh, but its the truth buddy

alot famous game maker start their game merely as hobby
Game like indy doesnt need to be graphic wise, just need "unique-ness"

Only them I think, bless them. Ubisoft went to Singapore. So close, yet so far.

Around 3 months from proposal, testing then conception. Do you have any programming experience by the way?

This post has been edited by Andrew Lim: Jan 10 2011, 09:20 AM

I always wanted to do game programming but got stucked with normal software programming. Normally I work alone on my projects but for game project, I can code but I cant draw so its pretty much nothing as well..even the coding part, I think I can make 2D games only especially I'm still stuck with VB.NET(actually it also can make quite good game) and now my 1st year degree, only I started to learn C++.

Another thing was the idea. I happen to came out with a idea of making multiplayer minesweeper. Not just people fight for score. Its like turn based. In a game, you can choose to bring like 4 special skill to the better ground. You can plant new bomb where enemy duno it but you know where is it. So its like see who make the wrong step 1st etc. It was built with multiplayer in mind so I finished the login and game lobby part(with the server console as well. It actually running with ability to retrieve current game, chat in game lobby and login with correct user/pass) and no more than that (Was thinking how to make the minesweeper game with so many picture boxes I need to put). It is my 1st time trying to program game and finally I failed. Dream too big, maybe had to start with single player game with online scoreboard.

This post has been edited by sasaug: Jan 10 2011, 10:27 AM

Yeah game programming is hard. It's not easy to create a fun game with good graphics.

It's good to start out with simple games. I started out with Tic-Tac-Toe then progressed to making an AI to play Minesweeper Flags. Although these projects were small, they helped buff up my resume and nail a game programming job.

But now I want to do my own indie game because working for a company has a lot of disadvantages.

currently I'm working on my coursework project creating games for directX 9 , hell so many things need to learn about this API =.=! not yet dx11 lol.

my alpha build screenshot lol..



This post has been edited by Mr.Botz: Jan 10 2011, 10:57 AM

Well said. And I fully agree, so this isn't just some passing statement. I wanna research as much as I can and what is needed. Hence the topic.

I unfortunately, don't have the skills to program a game. What I do have is an idea. A few actually. That's why I need a team.
But it's the intricacies of starting out a game company that I'm ignorant about. And I'm not afraid to admit that. Which is why I'd be grateful for any advice given.

I only have one thing to say ...

Don't try it in Malaysia.

No I don't. I'm planning to source out some.

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Added on January 10, 2011, 11:05 amWhile I appreciate your participation in this thread, I would rather you explain to me why I shouldn't try it in Malaysia and not just simply saying it.

This post has been edited by Dogma18: Jan 10 2011, 11:05 AM

haha generally malaysia workforce still way lack of the knowledge in game designing n 2 make matters worse,,,job opportunity 4 graduates with game development degree is very slim here...that is also the reason y we dont c malaysian representative in CES bcoz we just dont have the skill set 2 develop new gadgets while competing with the big boys...if only we can make high quality local made cellphone,,,i long ago ardy throw my nokia phone 2 the dustbin dy shows u y there is no nokia phones in japan n korea bcoz their local phone is way better than foreign phones n their people r big supporter of their local made cellphone...this also apply 2 games haha my 2 sens

This post has been edited by skylinegtr34rule4life: Jan 10 2011, 11:40 AM

What problems have you faced so far? And how long have you been doing it?

Then, get some programming, artistic or management skills. You cant just run a development team, as you have no skills at all. I worked with mod teams before (in DoW1 community), every single leader(compiler in IDH mod, thudmeizer in AI Mod,mastrorobertus in SL Mod) in the community have some amazing skills like programming, hacking, modelling or something. If you dont have any skills, how you gonna lead the team if you dont even know how things works.

Developing a game isnt as easy as you think and it is not the same as playing a game. Playing a game is fun, but developing isnt the same, as you are looking at that small aspect almost everyday, trying to debug it or code new features. I was with AI testing, where i have to play a race(which was Imperial Guard, as it's AI is very broken, and i was good with them in multiplayer) daily, just to figure out what build orders to implement for the AI. If not, i usually just run a script that force the Player 1 of the game, to be run by the AI, where technically im watching how the AI play to find how many face palming actions the AI is doing like the AI decides to spend the rest of the day building infinite bunkers for some weird reasons. So that another Polish guy, Larkin can code or debug the AI.

I have almost no programming skills, which means i cant code lua scripts, where i just stuck as a AI tester, sucks in a way, but it gives me an eye opener where game development isnt for me. It's not that fun coding the AI, as it's pretty tedious due to the amount of probabilities and the amount of time needed for testing. At the end, you got a pretty similar to human AI, where it micros, retreat dying units, have multiple build order, uses every single thing in the game and so on. It feels damn natural and it wipes typical players all over the floor. It does feel damn good, but im not keen about having game development as my future career. Thats why i say, games are fun to play, but developing it isnt the same as playing in almost every way.

Also, the way you write the post, it makes me feel as if you just woke up one day and say:" OH YEH, im gonna make a game. lulz". Seriously, the way you are now, i think i'll salute you if you have some sort of semi working alpha as i really have no confidence that you will achieve anything, without any skills at all. Ideas alone wont get you anywhere, as you can see in various modding community(not just DoW, also applies in UT, Total War and so on), where people with ideas only, but no skills, they wont get anywhere. You need skills, to bring your ideas into code.

I think, what you should do now is, get some programming skills and start the work yourself as an indie or better, join a mod team, as they always need people with skills. Then, slowly build whatever you are thinking to do, at the same time, decide whether this is for you or not.

Btw, long live, Imperial Guard!!!!

In Malaysia, there are plenty of companies doing asset development for bigger games, even Codemasters Malaysia is the same. They're only doing asset development here as the costs are lower for the workforce. That's why during their presentation over at Comic Fiesta they've only stated explicitly that they need 3D modelers and animators.

As for companies that are actually developing games at the moment I can only think of one which is a mobile game/DS game development company. Not very good ones at that, but they seem to be surviving.

Regarding advice for starting a games development team. I would suggest to start small like many others have stated, a mod team should increase your exposure to various foundations of games design and other factors. While indie games will force you to think out of the box or build something with that needs a really big box.

As to gathering insight into the gamesdev scene? Pay attention to GDC, look up the past years' highlights, nothing gets lost in the Internet. DevDiaries is also a great place to start for people who wants to have a basic knowledge of how certain games achieved their aesthetics, since I know and have watched devdiaries from... Let's see: Capcom, Bethesda, Lionhead, Bioware, Silicon Knights, Codemasters, Bungie, Microsoft Games, EA, Insomniac, Sucker Punch, SCEA, SCEJ, Epic Games... and etc etc. Lastly, blogs can be an amazing source of insight as well. Platinum Games runs a great blog with lots of details from Sound to After Effects for games like Bayonetta/Vanquish and etc, Valve blogs usually brim with information after a new game release* (Until the stupid hats got released anyways.), Lionhead also tends to communicate with players plenty. Their official forums are also usually an alternative source for development insights.

*:Also, developer's commentary also provides good insights into games design.

I have to agree with Cheesenium - having an idea is not enough. Everybody and his brother has an idea. "Hey, let's make a game like <insert famous game here> but with <revolutionary innovative fun game mechanic>!" I've met many people who have had ideas, not only in the games industry. I was in the banking industry for a while too. And I can say those people who have no development experience tend to over-estimate how much they can accomplish and underestimate the amount of resources they need.

Even if you want to go Indie, most of the Indie game developers are people who know how to code. They know the limitations of what a machine can do, and how hard it is to implement so-and-so feature.

hehe..I only have my company name registered..so far..it's only me and a couple of people.. it's kinda embarrasing really.. I thought it would be easy.. boy,was I wrong..

Ok aspiring game developer, here's some tips for you despite having zero programming skills:
1 - Pick up a simple game development tool like Yoyo's Game Maker. With it you can make simple top down old school JRPG games. Its designed to allow people with very little programming skill to do game development. Its not very powerful (Though some really good stuff was made with it), but it will at least serve as a good stepping stone to help you get familiar with game development
2 - If you're feeling more adventurous and gutsy, try Unity3D. Its definitely more programming centric, but its not impossible to pick up even if you don't have a background in programming (Since this was designed with that in mind). This is something you can really sink your teeth into if you're willing to dedicate the time since this software suite is good enough for production level quality games (Like Arcen's AI War and Tidalis). There are tons of tutorials for you to use for this. Another alternative is Unreal Engine, but that's a lot harder to tackle as a starter project. The plus to these two dev tools is that they're free to be used for indie developers, so if you want to press on with a proper release, you can.
3 - Learn a programming language... Simple as that. You're not looking for a career in IT, so you don't need to spend years perfecting it, but you just need enough to be able to at least understand how it works, so at the very least, when working with a team, you won't bombard your coders with stupendous requests. But even as a solo effort, programming knowledge will definitely be a boon. Picking up a programming language is all about whether it "clicks" with you. If it does, you could probably be able to master the basics in less than a week... If it doesn't a whole month wouldn't be enough and even then, its a real uphill struggle to fully understand it. My recommendations for languages is just C++ (Both procedural and Object Oriented Programming concepts) as that alone will give you enough tools and understanding to get around to using it.

Most game designers these days don't have programming skills (The kinds that graduate from "game designer" courses), but that's ok in Western countries since the pool of game programmers, coders and developers is so large there that you don't really need it. That's not true here and so you have to get down into the trenches for it. Don't focus too much on "I need a team" and instead try to do it yourself first... Only when you realize that you need help do you go sourcing for others.

I think he meant piracy problem in Malaysia...

and i also say stay with this motto

"Make a game from a dream/vision of a man, not a coorparate company who make money"

This post has been edited by Edison83: Jan 10 2011, 02:32 PM

can consider making flash games.

if you are really good, you can get nice sponsor monies from flash games websites.

i think gemcraft got about usd 18k sponsor money from armor games.


super meat boy started out as meat boy flash game also.

Based on what I read about Flash development is that its highly esoteric... Meaning that its hard to translate all the skills you learned in Flash (Or ActionScript which is the name of the language used) for use in other game development tools. So, unless you plan to do only Flash games, not really recommended as its a very big time investment and it severely limits your scope. Again, its not impossible, but it doesn't sound easy.

I think case in point would be the time difference between Meat Boy and Super Meat Boy's release times.

It's a start! And I applaud you for your efforts in this.


Actually, I've always had the dream of making an awesome game for years, so it wasn't just a revelation I had one day. But seeing that now we have the technology and access to development tools so easily, I figured that we as Malaysians should step up in the industry. While I've dabbled with some programming before, my skill sets fall into marketing mostly. But I understand fully that I need to have the skills to bring my ideas to fruition. Thinking of trying out Unity3D as H@H@ mentioned.

PS: I prefer Eldar, Warp Spiders ftw


Yes, I think what you said about reading up developer diaries is important. At the moment, I've only seen developer's commentaries and videos pertaining to the development of the games I've played. So i'll get on that then. Thanks for the tip.


Great advice man. I think I'll try out Unity3D. There's quite a lot of support material there!

This post has been edited by Dogma18: Jan 10 2011, 02:37 PM

Erm try game maker. Unity is still a step up if you haven't really had programming experience. Plus it's 3D. You can make 2D stuff but game maker is way easier to use to do that. It has stuff like animating sprites etc. Easier to do that in game maker than in Unity 3D. You want easy to understand tutorials check out the TiG Source forums. Lots a game maker devs there.

Didn't we have Gamebrains here as well? Not sure how are they doing now.

talk about mod.... it took me about 1 month to finish a l4d2 level (not campaign) and still alot thing to fix and i start lose interest and giv up.

And wth man. I posted all these resources and links in the Game design stickied thread here. Take a look at it.

Gamebrains were the dev studios that I lumped under "Doing kiddie ports of big games". That being said I think they were planning an original release during the Xbox and PS2 era, but nothing materialized from it I think. Yeah I haven't heard about them in years though (I think they moved to Singapore or something)

Googling them shows that they are still in Malaysia but are now full on "Doing kiddie ports games for mobile devices"

This post has been edited by H@H@: Jan 10 2011, 03:11 PM

Bleh....totally forgot that it was there. Thanks. Will be doing quite a bit of reading now.

Just to add since everyone has great points:

1) Have a good team of talented individuals. The problem for Malaysia is that we are lacking good programmers. We have more 3D artists but the tried and tested ones ... not so.
2) Contacts, contacts, contacts. If you want to start, you must have a hook somewhere to get your first project. If you don't, sorry.
3) Your greatest enemy is piracy and the mentality of Malaysians (as in why should they buy it if they can get it for free or better).

Off course there are more if you want to get right into it.

This post has been edited by Koross: Jan 10 2011, 05:46 PM

But why limit ourselves to Malaysia only?

You don't have to just sell games in Malaysia. This is 2011, the era of digital distribution. You can create a website like Minecraft's and sell via paypal. If your game is good enough, you can send a demo or copy to Valve and if they approve you can sell it in Steam.

This post has been edited by Andrew Lim: Jan 10 2011, 06:19 PM

I suppose if you sell it through the internet instead of retail it will definitely reach out internationally.
But thats all I can say. The job of "making" games is out of the question for me, my career path leads elsewhere. I just buy and play whatever people make, an entertainment when I'm bored or when I want to relax.

If any of you are interested in developing MMORPG let me know and i will share my experience and knowledge with you

One thing i can say is that you will need foreigners expertise and experience to help you out if you're thinking of developing a MMORPG. The mentality and culture here just won't be sufficient

WTH Are you TalKiNG about?!!!!!! I pLay thE Best MmmORPG Ever Created! DoTA!

Looks like the scar from killing floor.

start indie

dont be too ambitious

get creative yet realistic

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Added on January 10, 2011, 7:36 pmalso its a good idea to make 2d games first, cost is cut ALOT

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Added on January 10, 2011, 7:39 pmAnd this might sound ridiculous but, make a game in RPG Maker or Game Maker, sure you may know nothing much about serious programming languages like C++, but at least you'll be able to design your games with a good knowledge of how its going to be implemented.

This post has been edited by justinlee999: Jan 10 2011, 07:39 PM

bingo! it is, i took it and turn it as a sprite for the alpha build

, always nice to know kf is useful other than to kill stuff lol.

oh damn. I agree with this. Everyone want to do the game design, and not programming. that one of the problem I see here.

Another problem is, most "game company" in Malaysia top priority is making money, not good games. so after joining a company, you will end up doing flash/java ... etc game base on client crappy design.

I was quite into game development last time, but after changing job to my new company. I am doing more post production for tv now. I guess I will start to develop my own game really soon using my free time.

I want to do programming..as long someone provide a superb idea...and sprite then i make 1 =D

no worry. not pointing at you

I used to see alot of people that post something like this in other forum
"I want to make a RPG, looking for programmer, game artist , desginer. music composer"

then, the dude didnt show what he can do or what he had done in the past. just expecting someone to do his game.

lol I mean one of the stuff that make me stay away from game is graphic and as well of vb.net limitation(well i believe it can be done just more time testing around). I coded a lot program with 1 running 1 year and still maintaining and with stuff like those store where people buy stuff. Its a program which uses gaming as its element. It's something like Rapidleech service but the whole user system is based on gaming where you gain exp for stuff you download, buy items like double exp or unlimited link for free server etc. Few days back, i just added a pack where you can buy with points to get random icons. These icons can be crafted to form new one and unlock some icons which is not available in the pack. Well just for fun since it doesnt cost any cash to get it and those icons are displayed in chatbox for visual effect only. I like to take gaming element into it but yet I cant program a game xD I just taking c++ up,currently in degree 1st year 2nd sem so they just teach those pretty lame console based program so I still stick to VB.NET for my project

In Malaysia, being successful as a game developer has its own restrictions. I've spoken to a counselor in my college and he said that the gov gives the green light for games that have moral value and are non-violent. For example, if you want to create a WWII FPS based on the Japs against the locals to promote nationalism, the presence of blood, bad history and weaponry are no-nos, due to elements of violence

The joy of completing a game is rewarding, but the processes are grueling. Depending on the architecture, the main focus is usually on the core; programming.

AFAIK, the only international and legalized GD company is Codemasters(?)

This post has been edited by UserU: Jan 10 2011, 10:55 PM

Well I guess the goverment green light only true when you are applying grant from the government. You can still do violent and nasty game if you want

Yup. Like digital distribution.

Hate to contribute to malaysia's brain drain, but if you want work with a proper development studio, you have to be prepared to relocate overseas.

Try getting some back issues of the Edge, you don't have to get a current issue. That magazine is chock full of ads from developers looking for people with certain skills. You may not have the skills now but it's a good guide if you're looking to further your education with a focus towards game development.

Actually, scratch that - just check out http://www.next-gen.biz/jobs for the type of specialist skills they are looking at. The magazine itself is still pretty good as the back pages are full of articles on development studios who are basically advertising for talent. AFAIK if you're ambitious you can aim for it.

Just make sure you actually have a portfolio when you do apply.

Refer to the words in bold, IMHO there is a reason why they only teach "lame console based program". Most likely the course is to introduce concept of Object Oriented Programing (OOP). Add in fancy Windows GUI will confuse the students further more. That is the reason why they stick to the simple and trusted console based program.

Nowadays it's very rare to find couses that teach GUI programming in C++. Most of the time the teachers in Universities also don't have experience with it. I had to teach myself C++ graphics and Win32 programming by myself many years ago.

Nowadays it's slightly easier to do graphics in C++ thanks to GUI libraries like SDL, wxWidgets and Qt. These libraries have OpenGL bindings so it's possible to do 3D graphics too.

Dreams alone wont make it a reality.

I think you need skills before you even start your own game.

Would be better if you try some game that use lua, as it's quite easy to use. At the same time, you get to experience game development yourself to see whether is it suitable for you or not. You can be filled with enthusiasm now, but after you actually get your hands on it, you might not enjoy it. The main thing is, you must enjoy making games, so that you can make awesome games. That is also why the Western developers make better games generally because they love making games. If not, look elsewhere, like i am in engineering now, as i like solving problems in running analysis.

This post has been edited by Cheesenium: Jan 11 2011, 10:11 AM

These days you could probably skip learning C++ in order to do games. Python is used in creating Eve Online for example. It can also use the libraries listed above.

Wah, all talk into making games. What about selling them? Selling is more important than making them.

If doing games, I suggest going into small apps with short development like facebook aps. Selling games especially PC games = suicide cause sure pirate like mad. Promoting outside like awareness campaign oversea is really expensive. Malaysia is like Free to Play model. In Japan, this so call (doujin) amateur game makers actually makes money because piracy in Japan is a taboo. "Recettear" sold over 100k copies because of "Japan" brand. No point spending time,effort and especially money into something that would go down the drain. If sell in Malaysia price would be around RM 10 - RM 25 would be reasonable.

I suggest being amateur is better, you keep your job. At night or weekeend spend sometime doing it with a group. Almost capital free btw.

Python is a great language. Extremely easy to learn, and still as good as C++.

IMO, you need to know how to make games first before selling them. If you cant even make anything, how you gonna sell it even though you have great marketing.

Great marketing? You can sell things without the actual product. Its call scamming.

Im not keen with scamming.

There are enough scamming in the gaming industry.

Welcome to the internet age, where you can sell your games everywhere not just the country you live in. There are people out there who believe in paying for products. They also happen to live in countries with higher currency exchange rates. So it is possible to make a living from making games.

Recettear didn't sell just because of its a "Japan" brand name, it pretty unique and good as well. Wasn't there a game called Amnesia that sold 200k which is not Japanese in origin?

Money should not be the only driving force when creating a game. If you can make good games, the money will come.

True, the gaming industry is something you can't get serious in Malaysia.

Recettear is a bit overrated, its the power of perception. If Recettear is made in Malaysia, you think can same success? I don't know how The Star manage to pick this news up. Walau, game from some Muslim country? Already minus points and very difficult into making into headlines. Must be too many otakus. Can make games here, but need publish elsewhere. For example most of our CG cartoons. The truth is Upin and Ipin will never catch on other parts of the world.

Minecraft is something new. But i haven't try Amnesia.

Who the hell puts made in Malaysia or America or Japan in their product description for games? With DD services, you publish internationally, so no problems there either.

Well, i concede. Make sense now after reading this article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_v...ame_development

Honestly speaking, if you can, don't skip C++. Yes, its old and fairly backward compared to the newer fancier languages, but the best thing about C++ is that its a great everyman language since it teaches you the two main programming paradigms (Procedural and OOP) and is similar enough in syntax to just about every modern programming language (The only exception would be VB.NET, but even then, its just syntax as fundamentally they still function the same).

I say this because you should never view programming languages as just an esoteric skill where you only master one language when its fairly easy to master quite a few if you're willing to put the time into it. Besides, you never know what language you'll end up using in the end due to various factors, so its better to not put all your eggs in one basket.

I couldn't agree more. It needs patience, hard work, and most importantly, initiative. And it's true what you said about enjoying making games. So i'll have to get into it first before I can make decision to get things moving. Reading up on YoYo and Unity3D now. But what is lua?


EDIT: Ok I googled lua already. Which games uses lua?

This post has been edited by Dogma18: Jan 11 2011, 03:37 PM

Garry's Mod. It uses LUA files

Many Valve games use Lua to some extent. World of Warcraft also used to use Lua files for configuration. Not sure if they still do.

LUA scripts are used very extensively in most multimedia works. They're used in everything from 3D animation, event scripting, configurations, AI and other stuff... So, its not really limited to games really.

But LUA scripting isn't a development language per se... Its more of a skill that helps development that kind of thing. Yes, its great to pick up but I'm not sure of how useful it is in terms of bottom up development.

If you game is good , you dont even need to worry on how to sell them.
You only need to worry when your game is crap.

Not necessarily true.

True, bad games sold well and good games may be in the darkness.

Also I like to design games, but so do most people, however, as long as I got the money to ask people to do it, why not?

I'll just be the publisher and design games.

Programming is hard to do, but easy to master.

But design is easy to do, but hard to master.

I do programming for a living and I'm pretty sure you have that backwards.

It's all on how you advertise your products. The problem with going Indie is that you do not have the luxury to properly market them. Unfortunately, if you don't market them, no one is going to hear about it. Forget about comparing your product with the success of Minecraft, because to get that lucky and successful as an indie is rare. True that it is possible to get to that height of popularity but to count on it happening to you is unrealistic.

Indie is a good way to start from, since it involves a lower budget compared to starting a company. Many university students are doing that as a start.

I don't really agree with that. Minecraft also didn't gain popularity from the beginning; until a year later when people begin to discover it. When Steam came into light, it then shot up to fame. Even if someone doesn't have the cash to market it widely, simply creating a website or a video is sufficient enough to get people into trying out the game.

Another thing is also waiting for a suitable publisher for the game. It can first be distributed freely or with a micro-payment system, until a good publisher comes by and handpicks it(like Steam buying the patent rights of Minecraft).

This post has been edited by UserU: Jan 12 2011, 11:43 AM

Wait, what?

Steam own Minecraft? Source?

Plus, Minecraft picked up marketing speed after the alpha launched (Prior to that it was just a free alpha that was very different than how it was when the actual "pay to play" alpha launched) and word of mouth started spreading. It hit its stride around the time RPS started posting on it, or it was briefly mentioned in a TF2 blog post.

But yeah... Minecraft is still indie dude.

So your history of Minecraft's success isn't really right.

And you DO need marketing. Just looking through the list of games in TIGSource and that should tell you that you have a TON of competition and so you need to market yourself well to set yourself above a lot of the other crapware indie games.

Looky here for probably THE best guide to indie marketing
http://gillen.cream.org/wordpress_html/?page_id=693

Minecraft went viral. It's the user videos. And the attention it got. 99% of devs/publisher could never have planned that. You heard of NightSky before?

My bad. Guess that I've overlooked into the Steam thingy. But I've to agree that marketing plays a huge role in generating customers.

About the Minecraft history, I've read it from PCGamer. It stated that Markus started a blog and posted a video of Infiminer(which came out as Minecraft later) in 2009

@frags: Nope

This post has been edited by UserU: Jan 12 2011, 12:08 PM

Duuuuuuuuuuude, wrong again. Infiniminer inspired Minecraft, it isn't the same game. Infiniminer is from the guy behind Zachtronics Industries (Who just released the truly excellent indie puzzler, SpaceChem).

Seriously, you need to reread your Minecraft history.

I disagree. Minecraft is a cult hit, and cult hits usually don't get much followers. The cult hit status stopped and minecraft exploded prolly when RPS/Kotaku started having so f***ing many posts dedicated to it.

Exactly. They have a website and a trailer for the game. Yet you haven't heard of NightSky. yet...

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Added on January 12, 2011, 12:54 pmWhat were they posting about? It's those ridiculous user made videos.

This post has been edited by frags: Jan 12 2011, 12:54 PM

I meant I was disagreeing with UserU when he said NOPE to you. Not disagreeing with you frags.

Yeah my point is that the big sites like Kotaku started featuring them a lot because of the viral user made videos. Completely out of the hands of the developer. You could argue that maybe the design of Minecraft accommodated such viral videos, but I know even Notch never expected all this.

Not agreeing or disagreeing with you. Just adding to the conversation.

Point is, marketing your game is very important. Just as important as designing and coding an awesome game.

Perhaps I should have said "easier" it certainly isn't easy to master, but designing has lots of things to do, but almost anyone can do designing, just how good it is. From what I've seen, my programmer friends took quite a while to learn the language, but once it sets off its fairly easy to code properly provided you have good coding habits.

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Added on January 12, 2011, 2:55 pmoh and notch made a decent game and just happened to be lucky
And maybe he attracted people who liked to spread the news?

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Added on January 12, 2011, 2:57 pmAlso, I'm certain Notch has a connection with magazines like PC Gamer, causing them to repeatedly talk about minecraft all day long

This post has been edited by justinlee999: Jan 12 2011, 03:01 PM

He's just lucky to have his game going viral, people test to see the hype. Get hooked, Notch gets profits.

My few cents.
From what I know, try starting small with the games by experimenting from codes to how the game behaves and what type of game segment you're aiming for. You can have 2d RPGs, 2d action shooters and some storyboard games like Sam & Max, who knows maybe later you may be one of the guys who made some big azz titles.

Development of the game needs alot of analysis and requires you to do alot more homework than before. From financial point of view to time, resource and skills which is obvious.

For coding, using the right prog language is important in my opinion. Bugs usually cause by human error though.

For Marketing, depending on what audience are you aiming at. Hardcore or casual or super casuals ? Having lots of ads for the game doesn't prove much success when the market is full of the type game you have to offer.

It doesn't necessary to be like big budget titles.

Personally I'm not very good at any prog languages (learned C++, Java), never good but decent also I'm more of an art guy.

However this doesn't stop me from making new maps with home-brew functions on it for games since these days you can easily find editors or getting free SDKs to make your own stuffs with a little of coding knowledge.

What made a programmer very happy? 1, manage to solve a problem. 2, people actually using his software or playing his game. Dont talk about money but when I do program, this 2 is what that make me super happy and especially when people give comments about it and when some people say thank you, I can smile the whole day.

I dont know what makes a good game but if there is people actually playing your game and like it, its enough for me. That is how we programmer get our spirit to continue coding, coding ,coding xD

There's alot of people who is money minded and they don't care whether you do it for passion or the love of doing it.
They just want money from the stuffs you do else they'll paste a "wasted time" over your back just because it's their opinion, which is sad.
But then again, doing programming for getting food on the tables is another matter, money really matters here though.

The bolded part: Programming language, just like our normal everyday language, gets trickier & more complicated the further & deeper you venture. Perhaps your friends find it easy to code properly later on due to the fact that they were just using the basic functions such as "for" looping & so on? I'm pretty sure it gets more intense when it comes to big projects, since I've experienced that during my final year project & industrial training.

What you mentioned there are stuffs that you'll normally experience when you've just completed a workable program / game. However, the headache comes when you're squeezing your brain dry trying to come up with improvements & additional stuffs that can make the program / game better.

i'm pretty sure UserU wrote that in response to [bold+underlined]
programming language (in my case is C++) for start is pretty easy, but it went hard as i'm learning it and implementing it. essentially programmers/devs should be someone who can stay calm in various situations, have critical and analytical skills, experimental , will/eager to learn new stuff, open to suggestion and critism, realistic, good personal and interpersonal skills, stress tolerant..etc etc.

i'm agree with majority whom reply here saying that ambition and ideas alone wouldn't survive in gaming industry, especially if its a small time dev. both two combined with programming skills are essential. one also need to understand the flow of how games are created from scratch to 1 solid software. then comes the capital and marketing strategy along with that.

long short story, a (game) dev should be a master in >2 dev aspects and at the same time knows as much as possible in every other aspects. one wont come out as a master right away, it took time, effort and exp.


as for TS, learn 1-2 language. start with simple cmd games, then slowly implement GUI. dev multiple genre of games..one with words and texts (hacking games for example), puzzle games. then slowly add new rules and ideas to yours games. see and feel how it grows. 1 year should be enough to acquire those skills. from that point, expand skills to even broader aspect. mix and match them all. learns as much language, libraries and softwares during this time period. enjoy it, and it'll be fun i promise



p/s: i stop at C++ midway and thats the only programming language i learn.

This post has been edited by Invince_Z: Jan 15 2011, 11:42 AM

So very hard to get job even if you have game dev degree?

hi there , I'm from local Indie Games Development team Ammobox Studios. I'd like to share a bit of my 2cent about games development in Malaysia.

I think it is a bit misrepresented that Malaysia only have Gamebrains and Codemasters or that Phoenix Games Studios ( creator of Fung Wan ) has 'closed shop'.

Firstly, Malaysia have many other games/animation related company, just to list you some ( other than codes/gamesbrains ), Streamline Studios, Sage, Titoonic ( now Citizentree ) , riverwalk, Cubiinet , Igloo,
there are a bunch of other more.

I don't particularly think it is hard to get job in any of those company as long as you have a solid skill that you're confident with . Be it programming or art , or sound.

However, if you want to make game, you don't have to work for a game company. Of course it helps by providing you more experience and contact, but bear in mind because you work for games company doesn't mean you get to work on a game that you like.

The statement that it is impossible to go into gaming industry in Malaysia is a bad idea is such a wrong statement. Always remember this, starting indie team in ANY part of the world is same. With internet available we are equipped with the very SAME knowledge that is available to any americans, Europeans, or anyone else for that matter. Everything that can be learn there can be learn here. Most indie development teams have no studio experience. I can testify to that as half of our development team at the moment are not from Malaysia and they work on our game because it is a game that they like and they believe in the team behind it. None of them have studio experience.

It is true however that Malaysians are suffering from Brain drain, everybody knows that. There are better paying job in other countries, thus they're all being leeched internationally.

However, to get back on topic, for those who really want to start their hands into the games development industry. Picking up a specialization , and joining and indie team is the best way whether it is a modding team or a commercial team. Don't be trapped by the idea that Indie team are a bunch of hobby-ist having too much time in their hands and are people who live with their parents up to 30 years old. Indie teams are not just that, some indie teams are seriously capable of producing AAA quality games today due to the tools that are available at very low cost.

One of the team that I know is
http://www.interstellarmarines.com/



so well.. that's my 2 cent.

What! Didn't know IntMar were created by indie guys..I got one question, if now i take Bsc in computer games development, will i be accepted by big developers when i graduate?

matters on your work quality and also matters on your dedication.