10gate can make a stalker 20t faster than 13 gate, and is only 35 minerals behind at the 2:30 mark. Gas is also faster with 10gate if assimilator is always timed with core. 10gate is also faster tech.

10gate's 1st stalker (chrono'ed) comes out at 3:50
11gate's 1st stalker (chrono'ed) is at 4:10

terran 10rax turbo reaper is at 3:23.
So yes, 20t is very important.

Also 1 zealot is very important vs early marauder. Having Stalker + Zealot allows your stalkers to hit Marus while your Zealot tanks. Remember: Marus win vs Stalkers straight up. Also, Zealots have a higher dps than Stalkers so if Marus just ignore your Zealot, they die even faster.


EDIT to add:
Maru ball will of course be creamed by VRs/immortals, but with gateway units, just make a balance of zealots and stalkers. The thing is, zealots do more dps than Stalkers but a Stalker light army will be kited to death. A Stalker heavy army will be eaten alive by Maru's higher dps.

This post has been edited by nexous: Aug 25 2010, 08:55 PM

econ wise 12 gate would always superior with just slight set back on the first stalker in favor for a 3-4 gate play, or even decent robo teching while your stalkers continue to pump.

also, that 1 zealot = free kill for marauder concussive.
and terrans typically do 11 rax(or 10 rax with thats very close to 11)/gas/SD in same 11 food timing. watch the IEM replays.

and zealot are 50 shield 100hp, stalkers 80/80... so uh... not quite lol
they do have higher dps thats for sure, provide they dont get kited/sniped to death loololol

and lol maru...

12gate is superior, a tiny bit. Like I said, 35 minerals (lol) at the 2:30 mark. Whether this gap widens or closes depends on chronoboost strategy.

Zealot is almost always a must vs Marus. Reason again and again is Stalkers suck vs Marus. You say Stalkers have 10hp more than Zealots but do you know they take bonus damage from Marus? Marus will obliterate any pure Stalker army. Stalker's only use is to take pot shots at Marus when they're kiting Zealots. That's what I said in earlier, read it again.

The reaper strat used in the IEM especially by Morrow is NOT a turbo reaper strat typical in TvP. It's a delayed reaper build where you go for more reapers instead of faster reapers.
Delayed reapers suck vs protoss as Stalkers > Reapers.

Just to add numbers:

Marus do 10 dmg (+10 to armored)

9 hits to kill a Stalker
16 hits to kill a Zealot

This post has been edited by nexous: Aug 25 2010, 09:38 PM

thats where careful micro comes in. pure stalkers would still amass slightly quicker than rauders due to warp gate, and theres always the option to go 1) chargelot 2) immortals or even a 4 gate stalker spam mixing some zealots in to soak dmg while the stalkers just obliterate everything.

and lets not forget sentries for shield and or force block to split the MM up for the killing
and yes, i do know rauders do 20 dmg to stalkers, however stalker does 14 in return to rauders too, so it isnt too bad eitherway. if you add in shields, its 18 dmg vs 14. so the gap is even lesser.

of course theres stim pack in the equation, and thats where you play the terran is OP card.

and FFS, maru? really? wtf maru.

VRs and Immortals are not answers to a Maru timing push. There's no reason a Terran pushes with only Marus well into stargate/robotics tech. They can also push in the timing window before your immortal/VR is up, when you've just invested a ton of mins/gas on tech and have a lesser army.

The numbers I gave above already accounted for armor and shields.
Sentry shield is rather useless vs large hits like those from Marus. They are great vs Marines and lings though.

I'm not sure if you've seen a 2/3 Maru push/harass. Essentially only 2/3 Marus knocking at your door. If you have 1 zealot/2 stalkers, you'll have an easy time against this as opposed to a pure 3 stalker composition. Marus eat Stalkers for breakfast.

Stalkers do crap dps btw. Zealots do more dps to armored units than even Stalkers with their +2 bonus. Don't believe me? Take the unit's damage multiplied by the inverse of their attack speed. Stalkers are about the most crap damagers in the game, with exception to sentries.

This post has been edited by nexous: Aug 25 2010, 11:22 PM

build wise, i am in the same school ar nexous...
getting a zealot before a stalker (by the time ur zealot is done, ur core is just done)...
after all i experienced the marauder opening a few times on beta to be vary of it...
even if he go reaper and zealot is bad against it (with 2-3 probes off mining), it would buy me some time for my stalker to come out...

nt only PvT, on PvP having some zealots is still better (i tried a pure stalker compo and got owned by stalkers backed with some zealots)

how many zealots to stalkers?
based on my gut instinct and my resources LOL

2 gate 1 robo 1 stargate is viable btw .....been testing this build ~
just need to do sthg with void ray lol .... it best to hit turtle player~

with you can always FF to block the ramp and preventing MM enter isnt it?

while defending, stalker always able to do free shot since it above the cliff .....so far ....2 gate robo ...den early timing push is quite effective against terran ...unless bunker up ....if that happen camp outside his base with proxy pylon..

1) toss tech transition is a easier compared to other races due to chrono

2) sentry shield against zergling...? really? wow. (tooltip is ur friend btw)

3) without stim pack, i can out micro/macro rauders at my gates and i have the defensive position advantage. warp gates should be about done too thanks to chrono

4) stalkers may not be the highest dps'ers, but they certainly do not do crap dps. why else people f***ing 3-4 gate and spam stalkers all day long?

5) you play sc2 with the objective of taking out your enemy. not looking at a dps meter like some dpser in WoW raids. seriously.

6) and for god's sake, Marauder. rauder, mara are common shorts. maru? what the f***.

---

Added on August 26, 2010, 4:34 amPVP/PVZ i will typically get a zealot in 1v1, PVT however, i favor more stalkers so i dont get my zealot free kited and killed. once i get charge up then i will only bother zealots.

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Aug 26 2010, 04:34 AM

same to me..no charge no zealots,
normally I used 1 sentry 2 stalker def in the base while I speed build obs to scout their base

if PVP or PVZ can zealot without charge. if PVT, f***ing concuss just makes em too god damn useless. and in 1v1, losing that 1-2 unit early on can very well mean a gg depending on the situation

hmm, PVP i believe it comes to micro when fighting, stalkers+sentries combo can own stalkers+ zealot combo since u can use sentry to separate their zealot and stalker and own them 1 by 1..

micro rules..

and yeah, for PVZ, zealot is a must to tank those zerglings..=/

This post has been edited by raylee914: Aug 26 2010, 09:40 AM

What's a tech switch?
Getting the tech buildings up duh. You can't chrono those structures.

Read the sentry shield tooltip again, and tell us what do you understand from it. Here's a tip:
from a 50 dmg attack, the shield reduces 2 dmg, only 4% of damage mitigated.
from a 6 dmg attack, the shield reduces 2 dmg, a whopping 66% of damage mitigated.
See a relationship? Larger hits are less affected by GS.

Stalkers do actually have the lowest dps, bar Sentries. Rather than think about why people do things like massing stalkers, why don't you tell us what Protoss unit has an even lower dps?
Stalker heavy army is not a strong composition mid game onwards unless your opponent is massing marines or roaches only. They are usually used to support Colossi and being the only non-stargate anti-air.

DPS is kinda important and is the main reason why a pure Stalker army will lose in a straight up with Maru and Hydra.

- and what comes after building the production building? build the damn units

- http://sc2armory.com/game/protoss/units/sentry

zerglings do range attack now? ok.

- so everyone massing stalkers are DOIN ET WRONG. tell that to the pro gamer korean thats playing SC2 for A LIVING


and christ maru.

so vs a terran going MMM as u have scouted...
would u guys prefer to push out with 3-4 gate? or stay back and tech to colossi/ storm?

last nite i went with the first approach and failed badly (2 attempts) while beating another on blistering sands dropping my 70% winning rate ...

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Aug 26 2010, 01:26 PM

i will go 2-3 gate and try to aim for immortal/colo

but my stalkers will still go for early aggression as im a more aggressive player and taking out even a scv or marine would satiate that bloodthirst lol

i did make a push after my 2 gate, 1 zealot 1 sentry 2 stalkers while waiting for warpgates...
but if he do wall in, cant really do much besides tickling the supply depots LOL...
4 gate vs their T is

maybe i'll give ur build a try...

4 gate too hard vs T. all T has to get is tanks and you instant cry ady LOL

at least immortal can do *something* about it, or colo for high ground vision, and after thermal lance, you can snipe tanks with some good blink micro assist. (and colo > MM ball lol)

early aggression, even if its just SD ticking, it'd get his scv busy, and at least keep him contained, where you can attempt for expansions

even without tanks it feels hard...
when they have tanks, i could blink n snipe tanks but those darn concussive shells

Most of the time I'll wait and see, only will take my move once my obs is up. It's best if you could have a DT or 2 in your group. Works best when everything is so messy on screen.

fast scout and adapt your units to counter them..

pure MMM I will use stalker+collosious+zealot
MMM+ tank/thor = stalker+zealot+immortal
MMM+tank+vikings =they must be turtling too much = have to expand faster than them d =/