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 Next Gen Console: PS3 vs XBOX 360 vs. Wii, Next Gen speculation discussion

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SUSMatrix
post Feb 11 2005, 02:08 AM, updated 19y ago

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Just what do u guys predict and wants from the next gen consoles?

Personally in general, i would like to see:
-built-in VGA output!!! There doesn't seems like a good reason why this isn't included (other than cost factor). Not only that, having the option for multiple TV/monitor output will open up new possibilities.

-Built in HDD is a must!! But seems like cost factor is again taking this out of XBOX2 and there's no news of PS3 having built in HDD. And oh, just make sure the HDD is a standard PC IDE HDD..

-NO MORE CRAP SEQUELS!! If they can't make good sequels, just don't make it!

For the PS3, i would like to see:
-IMPROVED IMAGE QUALITY!! With Nvidia around, I'm quite sure we'll finally have a formula for JAGGIES-BE-GONE!!

-A bit more generous with the video RAM. I hope it's not another 4MB video ram fiasco that makes the PS2 texture so flat.

-More durable machines!!!

-DD5.1 realtime encoding!!

-No more crappy 8MB memory card. It's understandable they wanna make it propriatery...but at least use the SONY Memory stick or something bigger...but price will be prohibitive though. There's no way they'll allow standard cheap CF cards to be use...sigh..

-An instruction manuals to developers:
"Teach yourself to code the PS3 in 21 days without losing your hair." Now that the CELL is confirmed to have 8+1 cores ( with 10 cores executable in parallel, the last core can have 2 threads or something like that). Just hope that they have a proper suppport for developers or nobody will be able to use it except Ken Kutagari.

More news here about PS3:
http://hardware.gamespot.com/Story-ST-15015-1483-x-x-x



For the XBOX2, i would like to see:
-A better console design!! Currently, it looks too much like a BOX with an X on it.

-Backward compatibility!

-More Japanese RPG and games! If they can get this right, they'll be serious contender to SONY PS3.

My prediction of hardware superiority:
Somehow I've a feeling that the PS3 will be the most powerful hadrware around this time...by virtue it'll be released about 1 year later than XBOX2. Provided that the Cell don't turn out to be another Saturn+PS2. MS is taking the steps of SEGA by releasing a console early to capture the market...as long as they don't make the same mistake as SEGA did.

My prediction of software superiority:
I still don't see Japanese developers clamoring onboard XBOX2...eventhough SquareEnix did mentioned interest in XBOX2....i think SONY has some % of share in Square...so...Western support for XBOX2 will be there though, so the situation likely remains unchanged.

Oh yeah... i forgot to mentioned Nintendo? Seriously...I've no interest in them.

In a few months time, more questions shall be answered at GDC & E3.

Things is looking interesting!

This post has been edited by H@H@: Apr 30 2006, 11:49 PM
PrivateJohn
post Feb 11 2005, 03:04 AM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ Feb 11 2005, 02:08 AM)
-Backward compatibility!
*
So far no backward compatibility because it changes from nvidia to ati cards. So microsoft will be liable for making it compatibility. They are still finding ways, loop hole to make backwards compatibility happen.

We can't really say who gona win next round 'coz we don't have any in depth story yet. IMO, next console war they won't be any hardware superior over each other i guess. Interesting point is xbox 2 gona have 3 version.

In terms of price maybe xbox 2 gona have advantage 'coz m$oft?....ati? (don't know whats the real reason they change to ati though)

I definitely want a hdd inside a console, it's just soooooooooooo nice to have a hdd in a console.

I want a built in media center....xbox mod media center has proven that it's a very convenient all in one entertainment system. Why want to have so many dvd player tv out cards stack near your tv, just one console will do!!

I gona wait and see, which one better then i will buy....instead of being a fan boy or something.
prazole
post Feb 11 2005, 03:59 AM

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MOST IMPORTANTLY THE LINE UP OF GAMES

normally i buy a console coz i want a single game so badly...

oooo... DID U KNOW THAT... they are already working on the next DOAX game... i heard its not volleyball this time... hehehhe.... on XBOX2 of coz...

hardware issue sure is there la... i mean 1 year gap difference... sure technology and pricing factor... will benefit the PS3...

THE REAL WINNER is the one will the BEST developer support IMO..
i mean they are still producing WOW factor graphic on the PS2 (inferior hardware , anyone?) suprising but YES... GT4 MGS3 still WOW me at least...
thats y u cannot juz listen to the numbers... let the game do judgement...

and YES HDD SUPPORT.... although i think my XBOX will last long for sometime even if xbox2 come out... with XBMC and all...
billytong
post Feb 11 2005, 09:11 AM

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What I want is the able to support 2 TV output. (which nobody cares)

Since most or all Consoles have 2 players. I dont want to play games with my other partner by spliting the TV screen into two.
khazz
post Feb 11 2005, 09:24 AM

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in my opinion people will buy xbox when they can provide winnning eleven
fariz
post Feb 11 2005, 09:32 AM

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I'll buy them all, PS3, Xbox 360 (?) and Nintendo Revolution (?)
stringfellow
post Feb 11 2005, 10:49 AM

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Good to hear that, Ace. One less fanboy in this world is a much needed relief, since you'd be supporting gaming in general, not the consoles.
PrivateJohn
post Feb 11 2005, 01:13 PM

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QUOTE(billytong @ Feb 11 2005, 09:11 AM)
What I want is the able to support 2 TV output. (which nobody cares)

Since most or all Consoles have 2 players. I dont want to play games with my other partner by spliting the TV screen into two.
*
OMG, you said what i wanted for quite sometimes.

QUOTE(khazz @ Feb 11 2005, 09:24 AM)
in my opinion people will buy xbox when they can provide winnning eleven
*
It's out in xbox. Somehow you show that out there alot of "soft"core gamer just wanna buy a console to play winning eleven, some sports games. Alot of my friend do.

BTW, prazole if what you said is true...squaresoft coming to xbox then the competition is really up to the console design, hardware, marketing liao. Almost all the game are cross platform, haha. For me i will either buy ps3 or xbox 2, gamecube revolution yet to see. Unless it's cheap then i gona buy both of them (like now i have both ps2 & xbox)

This post has been edited by PrivateJohn: Feb 11 2005, 01:17 PM
billytong
post Feb 11 2005, 04:23 PM

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u know what?

I am guessing the next Xbox design will just like the old xbox with a X letter on top.

But this time Xbox 2 might come with a pair XX on top. tongue.gif sweat.gif Cool! yawn.gif


PS1 can sit horizontally, PS2 can sit vertically. PS3 stick on the wall? shakehead.gif tongue.gif

Gamecube Revolution? The console have more cubical surface than the old one? tongue.gif
shinjite
post Feb 12 2005, 01:54 AM

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Instead of guessing here, some might be true and some might not be true
So I'll just wait for the announcements of all the consoles, especially PS3 during E3
prazole
post Feb 12 2005, 03:53 PM

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oh yeah i forget one thing

please design a COOL looking thing...
i dont particularly like the PS2 and Xbox design...
yeah ps2 is the worst.. gc the best!
shinjite
post Feb 12 2005, 07:00 PM

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PS2 is way better than the GC for my taste
PS2 colour and design is stylish
Zaryl
post Feb 12 2005, 08:01 PM

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Perhaps a new set of layout for the PS3's controllers?

Make 'em FPS friendly. tongue.gif Also, the D-pad must have total of EIGHT directional buttons, not just 4, which is only up, left, right, down. Make it like the good ol' Sega Genesis days. Can play those fighting games more easier, coz more accurate to do shoryuken & whatnot.

Za Cell processor huh? Let's hope it's not gonna be so difficult to program, otherwise may end up like Sega Saturn. The developers are able to utilize only ONE of the processor in PS2 according to what I read in GAMEPRO magazine. (forgot which issue already). So, no use they make lotsa CPUs but can use only a few. whistling.gif

Just my humble opinion. smile.gif
bug_vengeance
post Feb 12 2005, 08:35 PM

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when is E3 ?
stringfellow
post Feb 12 2005, 10:08 PM

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http://www.e3expo.com/e3expo/

Mark your calendars for May 17th-20th, folks!
PrivateJohn
post Feb 13 2005, 12:25 AM

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Cocky Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer
mambo
post Feb 14 2005, 12:31 AM

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aaahhh hope to c new ps3 with hdd built in and no more save card.. and most important ly more RPG.... Eh guys true ah squareenix intrested in xbox??? if tru the it's a problem to Sony.
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post Feb 14 2005, 01:34 AM

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For me, me dun really care whatever super-spec that the next-gen console may have...
Me just wanna play great games... And most of the great games comes and/or ported for Nintendo consoles (search for gaming consoles history...) Other great games that not on Nintendo consoles, mostly already ported to PC (How they play Serious Sam/GTA3 using just an analog joypad? Using combination of mouse and keyboard is the best way to play FPS...)
Me used to own NES and SNES, skipped N64 and GC in flava of PS and PS2...
Me's so sorry Miyamoto... But me promise your NDS and NRevolution will sit happily my GBP,GBC and GBA, let the PS-variant gather dust!
SUSMatrix
post Feb 14 2005, 10:10 AM

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More cell read up in relation to RAMBUS. It's lucky for RAMBUS that SONY is still dealing with them after all their failure on the PC platform. Looks like they'll have another go at the PC market.

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2341

On another note....there seems very little info about the XBOX2 (rumours or otherwise) being out...it's quite suprising since the XBOX2 should be out 1 whole year before the PS3....and Nintendo is even worst...totally no info.

But let's not forget one interesting though....IBM is involved in ALL the consoles CPU, one way or another...The Cell=SONY+TOSHIBA+IBM, PowerPC(xbox2)=IBM+Motorola?, and Revolution also uses a chip which IBM is involved...POWERPC also??

I wonder if there's some agreement that prevents IBM from being 3-headed snake...hee-hee...take the tech developed from one company and bring it to the other...

Maybe they should have a division called IGM instead...INTERNATIONAL GAMING MACHINE!!




SUSMatrix
post Feb 14 2005, 10:19 AM

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QUOTE(mambo @ Feb 14 2005, 12:31 AM)
aaahhh hope to c new ps3 with hdd built in and no more save card.. and most important ly more RPG.... Eh guys true ah squareenix intrested in xbox??? if tru the it's a problem to Sony.
*
Not more RPGs...but GREAT RPGs...the RPGs on the PS2 has been mostly sad sequels except the FF series. It just doesn't have the strong RPG precesnce of the PS1.

SQUARE-ENIX has expressed "interest" in the XBOX2, but as far as I'm concerned, it's going to be all talk only...if SONY is still holding those shares in Square-Enix, there's no way Square-Enix is going anywhere near the next-box.

And oh yeah...where the heck is the sequel to Final Fantasy Tactics!!! There just isn't any good "tactics" RPG games this generation.

SUSMatrix
post Feb 14 2005, 10:24 AM

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QUOTE(PrivateJohn @ Feb 11 2005, 03:04 AM)
So far no backward compatibility because it changes from nvidia to ati cards. So microsoft will be liable for making it compatibility. They are still finding ways, loop hole to make backwards compatibility happen.

We can't really say who gona win next round 'coz we don't have any in depth story yet. IMO, next console war they won't be any hardware superior over each other i guess. Interesting point is xbox 2 gona have 3 version.

In terms of price maybe xbox 2 gona have advantage 'coz m$oft?....ati? (don't know whats the real reason they change to ati though)

I definitely want a hdd inside a console, it's just soooooooooooo nice to have a hdd in a console.

I want a built in media center....xbox mod media center has proven that it's a very convenient all in one entertainment system. Why want to have so many dvd player tv out cards stack near your tv, just one console will do!!

I gona wait and see, which one better then i will buy....instead of being a fan boy or something.
*
Yes..if the XBOX2 does have 3 versions...it's going to be quite weird...how do they plan to control the software version? Does the high-end XBOX2(rumoured to be a PC+XBOX2) have hardware advantage? Upgradable? if that's the case, the traditional software advantage development on console will be compromised as developers have to take in consideration of future upgradability.

anyway, the next gen won't be a viable buy until maybe 2/3 years later(consider 1st next gen console is XBOX2, and released end of this year)...when price has dropped and the "ahem" chip has stabilized... smile.gif

lucashii
post Feb 16 2005, 09:21 AM

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for i wat i want is PS3 NOW!
H@H@
post Feb 16 2005, 03:47 PM

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Here's something from the rumour mill.

Xbox 2 release around "late October and early November"

Source : Evil Avatar
PrivateJohn
post Feb 16 2005, 06:32 PM

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I don't want xb0x 2 so fast!! Xb0x still got alot of potential with all the great games lately.
H@H@
post Feb 23 2005, 09:54 AM

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Here's some interesting details on some problems with the Cell of the PS3 regarding power as well as some insider info on the Xbox 360
SUSMatrix
post Feb 23 2005, 11:44 AM

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QUOTE(H@H@ @ Feb 23 2005, 09:54 AM)
Here's some interesting details on some problems with the Cell of the PS3 regarding power as well as some insider info on the Xbox 360
*
Err..can't see anything..only black screen with side bar and top bar...anyone else have same problem or just my PC??
PrivateJohn
post Feb 23 2005, 12:13 PM

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I can visit the site with no problem. Using streamyx?
prazole
post Feb 23 2005, 12:44 PM

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QUOTE(PrivateJohn @ Feb 16 2005, 06:32 PM)
I don't want xb0x 2 so fast!! Xb0x still got alot of potential with all the great games lately.
*
IMO, xbox havent reach its peak yet
and already going to be replaced already...

but then.. heard xbox2 going to use back DVD
hehe.. that means... "P" still will be alive for next gen console...
SUSMatrix
post Feb 23 2005, 04:30 PM

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Rumours...that the XBOX2 will NOT be usind HD-DVD...probably too expensive to make the media and drive....which, IMO is GOOD.

IF XBOX2 stick to DVD, PS3 use BR-DVD...than we can guess which machine will have "P"...and become a worldwide best seller...hee-hee.
H@H@
post Feb 24 2005, 11:19 AM

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More dirt on the next gens...

A leaked photo of the Revolution and a possible removable hard-drive for the Xbox 2
SUSMatrix
post Feb 24 2005, 07:03 PM

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That Revolution picture is SO FAKE. We could probably rig a much better shot than that.

At least the toilet bowl fake of the PS2 was innovative.
PrivateJohn
post Feb 25 2005, 12:44 PM

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Microsoft dude ----> Sony

Sony Dude ----> Microsoft

Next gen console battle is getting interesting.
SUSMatrix
post Feb 25 2005, 05:39 PM

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SQUARE DEVELOPS FOR XBOX 2!!!

http://xbox.ign.com/articles/590/590650p1.html?fromint=1

Well....sort of, but it's good....given that PS3 is looking the way of BR-ROM...XBOX 2 could be the only choice of the next generation.

cocklea
post Feb 25 2005, 08:47 PM

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aiya Blu-Ray ps3 oso sure got "buatan malaysia" one lar coz that one is mass produce, unlike the UMD which is Sony Exclusive and that mini dvd disc used for GC which is Nintendo Exclusive. The Blu-Ray if not mistaken is backed by alot of company ya? So later sure got Blu-Ray burner, and someone would be able to "h4x0r" the PS3 games and then we chipped our Ps3 with Magic7 or a Messiah8 and Malaysia gamer can rejoice!! This is just a theory from me lar so dont get your hopes up tongue.gif
SUSMatrix
post Feb 26 2005, 12:24 AM

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QUOTE(cocklea @ Feb 25 2005, 08:47 PM)
aiya Blu-Ray ps3 oso sure got "buatan malaysia" one lar coz that one is mass produce, unlike the UMD which is Sony Exclusive and that mini dvd disc used for GC which is Nintendo Exclusive. The Blu-Ray if not mistaken is backed by alot of company ya? So later sure got Blu-Ray burner, and someone would be able to "h4x0r" the PS3 games and then we chipped our Ps3 with Magic7 or a Messiah8 and Malaysia gamer can rejoice!! This is just a theory from me lar so dont get your hopes up tongue.gif
*
Don't be so sure. Even DVD takes some time to become mass market. And when PS2 was released, DVD has been around for ages(in fact DVD has been around for years before the launch of PS2). With BR-DVD, there's NONE on the market and PS3 will probably be the world's first consumer BR-DVD player as well.

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post Feb 26 2005, 01:18 AM

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yes there is commercial BR-DVD player/burner now...in Japan of course...and it's bloody expensive...
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post Feb 26 2005, 01:42 AM

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Everything new is bloody expensive sweat.gif


tidusthecoolest
post Feb 26 2005, 04:05 AM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ Feb 26 2005, 12:24 AM)
Don't be so sure. Even DVD takes some time to become mass market. And when PS2 was released, DVD has been around for ages(in fact DVD has been around for years before the launch of PS2). With BR-DVD, there's NONE on the market and PS3 will probably be the world's first consumer BR-DVD player as well.
*
I agree. PS2 takes almost 2 years before "ahem" version of DVD game come out. Before that, all "ahem" game are on CDs with CG movies on the game got cut off to make the game fit in a CD. sweat.gif

Maybe they will make the "ahem" PS3 game in a DVD first with CG movies got cut off to make it fit in a DVD? unsure.gif

This post has been edited by tidusthecoolest: Feb 26 2005, 04:06 AM
PrivateJohn
post Feb 26 2005, 10:40 AM

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Anyway...here is one of the xbox 2 strongest weapon...XNA development kit.

QUOTE
Epic's Tim Sweeney has been one of the early supporters of Microsoft's XNA initiative. Has XNA been an important factor for Midway when it comes to planning for next-gen titles, especially now that you have added PC development?

Matt B: It remains to be seen how XNA exactly works, but in principle we're, of course, totally behind it because the cost of creating games is getting so high that we need to develop for multiple platforms. Therefore, anything that makes it easier to go from the Xbox to the PC with the same core code base, absolutely we're behind it.

Right now, it's too early to know what will happen with XNA. It's one of those things that everyone is behind in principle because it is a good idea, but we'll have to see how it all plays out.
If it really works out, alot of game developer gona shift over to xbox 2 'coz the cost of making game is lower like what Matt B said. 1 Tool, games for 2 platform...

Maybe that's one of the reason Hironobu Sakaguchi move over to microsoft. The game market is all about profit. No profit, no resources to make another game.
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post Feb 26 2005, 10:44 AM

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next gen game need that much storage??? i mean more than 9gb??
i bet the biskut tawar team will find a way to transfer BRD to DVD9..
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post Feb 26 2005, 10:51 AM

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On second thought, maybe this is the real reason he left square.
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post Feb 28 2005, 12:13 AM

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hey guys, what if suddenly Sony announce that PS3 is going to use a 12 inch UMD?? Aku nangis sial.
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post Feb 28 2005, 01:58 PM

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hahha after investing so much on blu-ray disc, dun think sony will do that,
SUSMatrix
post Feb 28 2005, 03:05 PM

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QUOTE(ruffstuff @ Feb 26 2005, 10:44 AM)
next gen game need that much storage???  i mean more than 9gb??
i bet the biskut tawar team will find a way to transfer BRD to DVD9..
*
Err..Blu Ray, i think can store about 30GB. Double sided Blue Ray can store about 50GB...

How do you transfer 30GB to a 9GB disc???

of course, the actual game itself might not be that big, but i've no doubt developers will either be cramming more useless FMV onto it or just dump some dummy files in there to fill up the disc...

PrivateJohn
post Mar 3 2005, 03:40 AM

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How microsoft do it?
More Japanese Game Luminaries Pick Next-Gen Xbox!!!

Microsoft Game Studios Interview: Next-Gen Partnerships

This post has been edited by PrivateJohn: Mar 5 2005, 04:31 PM
SUSMatrix
post Mar 4 2005, 10:35 AM

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Read somewhere. It seems like the CELL isn't really 8 cores...More like 2 cores + 8 SIMD extension, in a technical analysis somewhere.

So, it might not be that much more powerful than the other next-gen console as initially thought. Have to wait n see.

H@H@
post Mar 5 2005, 01:25 PM

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Nintendo Revolution may alienate 3rd party developers

Not surprising really...
SUSMatrix
post Mar 7 2005, 05:29 PM

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Aiya Nintendo...always acting weird one...3rd party is the KEY to a console success. The PSX was the prove of that when they sapu all the 3rd parties from Nintendo and SEGA.

Still cannot learn from mistakes...

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post Mar 7 2005, 07:12 PM

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if only nintendo learn their mistakes.....then it would be the best...
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post Mar 8 2005, 12:08 AM

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Microsoft Announces XNA Studio

Well, for nintendo we can't really say next gen console wars gona be their knockout round...with current "rumours" only...there are yet to be seen.

This post has been edited by PrivateJohn: Mar 8 2005, 12:11 AM
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post Mar 9 2005, 07:08 AM

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Xbox Next info on Gamespy and the Physics Processing Unit are here for your pleasure today...

I know the PPU isn't exactly for Next-gen, but hey, it might...
fariz
post Mar 9 2005, 11:00 AM

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QUOTE(H@H@ @ Mar 9 2005, 07:08 AM)
Xbox Next info on Gamespy and the Physics Processing Unit are here for your pleasure today...

I know the PPU isn't exactly for Next-gen, but hey, it might...
*
3 PPC cores, next-gen vpu, 256mb system ram, dvd-9.. it's powerful but at what cost?
QUOTE(Gamespy)
Keep in mind that all of this information is based off of alpha development kits and current projections for the final hardware. Everything is subject to change.

PrivateJohn
post Mar 9 2005, 03:30 PM

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QUOTE
* All games must be Live-enabled. (Live-Aware Minimum)

* All games must be HD-compatible with 720p the minimum spec, 16:9 aspect ratio, 5.1 surround sound and anti-aliasing.

* All Xenon games can be played using custom soundtracks encoded in WMA or MP3 up to 320Kbps.

* All in-game videos to use XMV (Xenon Motion Video) based on Windows Media 9, which will includes the mandatory HD-DVD codec. All video should run at 720p, 30fps and with 5.1 sound.

On a 4:3 standard tv, games will be letterboxed. (THANK GOD!! Halo3 wont have a stretched circle crosshair like halo2 does in widescreen then!)


SWEET.

BTW...Final Fantasy father Hironobu Sakaguchi demonstrated an Xbox 2 game to Hirokazu Hamamura

This post has been edited by PrivateJohn: Mar 10 2005, 12:41 AM
PrivateJohn
post Mar 10 2005, 05:02 AM

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Microsoft Reveals First Details of Next-Generation Xbox

Microsoft Game Studios Chooses Unreal Engine 3 (epic showcase of unreal championship 2 makes microsoft choose unreal 3 engine?)

NovodeX Physics SDK to Support Next Generation Xbox

Some angry fan comment on the news..
QUOTE
Vadcolis
Vadcol memo: 1304 hours

With my 15 years of videogame experience, I guarantee that these features will not be used in Xenon. However I do believe the custom music tracks will prevail. Don't get me wrong, I seriously believe Xenon is going to kick Sony's PS3 in the ass.

Bungie and other lazy-ass developers have no more excuses for developing half-ass games. Xenon's power and the XNA software will be the major tools for unlocking "Masterpiece Games". The next time I see a half-ass game like Halo 2, it going to be serious civil lawsuit handed out to these dumbasses, I'm not playing.

As for Nintendo's Revolution....LMAO.....they are finished. Just stick with your pathetic GBA N64 Advance unit, lol.


Another thing, why there are not much news about sony upcoming ps3 other than chaging power of the new ceo. I can't wait for the next gen console. It's the future....home entertainment system.

This post has been edited by PrivateJohn: Mar 10 2005, 06:21 AM
nairud
post Mar 10 2005, 02:37 PM

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Quoted from Gamespy
QUOTE
The Guts of the Next Box

# CPU - Xenon's CPU has three 3.0 GHz PowerPC cores. Each core is capable of two instructions per cycle and has an L1 cache with 32 KB for data and 32 KB for instructions. The three cores share 1 MB of L2 cache. Alpha 2 developer kits currently have two cores instead of three.

# GPU - Xenon's GPU is a generation beyond the ATI X800. Its clock speed is 500 MHz and it supports Shader 3.0. Developers are currently working with an alpha 2 GPU. Beta GPU units are expected by May and the final GPU is slated for a summer release. The final GPU will be more powerful than anything on the market today; in game terms, it would handle a game like Half-Life 2 with ease.

# System Memory - Xenon will have 256 MB of system RAM. Keep in mind that this number should not be equated to typical PC RAM. The Xbox has 64 MB of system RAM and is a very capable machine.

# Optical Drive - As many have speculated, Xenon will not use Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. Games will come on dual-layer DVD-9 discs. While the media is the same as that of the current Xbox, the usable space on each disc is up to 7 GB. The drive is slated to run at 12X.

# Memory Units - Xenon will use 64 MB to 1,024 MB memory cards. 8 MB is reserved for system use, leaving a 56 MB to 1,016 MB for user data.

# Hard Drive - As many have speculated, Xenon's hard drive is optional. 2 GB of the drive will be used as game cache. The final drive size is still being determined.

# Camera - Xenon will have a USB 2.0 camera. It's capable of 1.2 megapixel still shots and VGA video. Photos can be used in-game and for gamer profiles. The camera can also be used for video chat. It's unknown if the Xenon camera will allow for EyeToy-like gameplay. Developers are currently using a simulated camera driver.

# Sound Chip - Xenon does not have an audio chip in the traditional sense. Decompression is handled by hardware, while the rest of the chores are handled by software. DirectSound3D has been dropped in favor of X3DAudio. The former was deemed too inflexible.
with them having to stick to DVD and now using only DVD9, i think it'll be great news for every potentiol xbox xenon owners. More and more homebrew stuff and modchips

This post has been edited by nairud: Mar 10 2005, 02:38 PM
rash_462
post Mar 11 2005, 03:53 AM

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Revolution is confirmed to be backwards compatible with GC games and will have wi-fi out of the box.
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post Mar 11 2005, 03:59 AM

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QUOTE(rash_462 @ Mar 11 2005, 03:53 AM)
Revolution is confirmed to be backwards compatible with GC games and will have wi-fi out of the box.
*
In that case, NGC games is still worth to collect kei. smile.gif
SUSMatrix
post Mar 11 2005, 09:35 AM

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Huh? XBOX 2 no sound chip???? Err...why ler? Sound chip is cheap nowadays. Using the CPU to handle the sound/music will take away some of those processing power...

But since the media remains as DVD, it's good news for us..smile.gif

But i can't understand...why use specialize mem card....allow us to plug in cheap thumbdrive lar!!! But at least it's not only 8MB...

As for the HDD, i wonder if we can plug in standard IDE/SATA HDD again like XBOX or MS learnt it's lesson and use some propriatery connector....

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post Mar 12 2005, 02:44 AM

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i give a rat's ass about tech stuffs..i just wanna play GOOD GAMES!!!
tidusthecoolest
post Mar 12 2005, 03:08 AM

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Optional HDD for Xbox 2? Why make it optional?
PrivateJohn
post Mar 12 2005, 03:29 AM

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QUOTE(tidusthecoolest @ Mar 12 2005, 03:08 AM)
Optional HDD for Xbox 2? Why make it optional?
*
Perhaps not everybody need the hdd? Like current xbox, how many actually used up the 8 gb hdd if they don't know about the function or those buy it just for gaming but not home media center.
tidusthecoolest
post Mar 12 2005, 04:10 AM

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QUOTE(PrivateJohn @ Mar 12 2005, 03:29 AM)
Perhaps not everybody need the hdd? Like current xbox, how many actually used up the 8 gb hdd if they don't know about the function or those buy it just for gaming but not home media center.
*
But wouldn't it degrade game performance? Most Xbox games need HDD to use as cache right?
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post Mar 12 2005, 04:14 AM

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QUOTE(tidusthecoolest @ Mar 12 2005, 04:10 AM)
But wouldn't it degrade game performance? Most Xbox games need HDD to use as cache right?
*
Slower loading time perhaps but i thought xbox next does come with hdd but how big it is are still unknown, maybe default size just few gigs but then it's upgradable? Xbox can have superior loading time part of the hdd as well. The cache file is in xbox drive x or z. Goto check again.

This post has been edited by PrivateJohn: Mar 12 2005, 04:19 AM
tidusthecoolest
post Mar 12 2005, 04:26 AM

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QUOTE(PrivateJohn @ Mar 12 2005, 04:14 AM)
Slower loading time perhaps but i thought xbox next does come with hdd but how big it is are still unknown, maybe default size just few gigs but then it's upgradable?
*
You mean that Xbox 2 will have HDD, but it's for system's use only? And if we want to use HDD on Xbox to store files, etc we have to buy an optional HDD?
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post Mar 12 2005, 04:55 AM

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Maybe? All sort of rumours our there. Just goto wait till this e3. Hope i can go e3 with my friend this year since his gf going USA for studies.

Anyway, my bro start saving money for xbox next already. Since he is a working person, xbox next will be more affordable compare to last time when none of us have any income.
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post Mar 12 2005, 08:09 AM

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Reggie Fils-Aime confirmed that Revolution wont be released this year.
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post Mar 12 2005, 08:19 AM

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I wouldn't get my hopes up about going to E3. The show isn't open to the general public. sad.gif
QUOTE(from www.e3expo.com official website of e3 2005)
Frequently Asked Questions

Is the show open to the public?

No, E3 is not open to the public. E3 is a trade event and only professionals from the industry will be allowed to attend. Individuals who are not able to document their direct and current professional affiliation to the interactive entertainment industry are not qualified to attend E3. All E3 attendees are required to show government-issued photo I.D. (such as a driver's license or passport) upon request.
Hangmen
post Mar 12 2005, 03:18 PM

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Just like when the PS2 first came out, the latest console graphics will be superior to PC when it came out for one or two years, then it became on-par with PC after another year and probably become outdated in another year or two later. That's the nature of consoles.

This post has been edited by Hangmen: Mar 12 2005, 03:18 PM
tidusthecoolest
post Mar 12 2005, 03:46 PM

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QUOTE(Hangmen @ Mar 12 2005, 03:18 PM)
Just like when the PS2 first came out, the latest console graphics will be superior to PC when it came out for one or two years, then it became on-par with PC after another year and probably become outdated in another year or two later. That's the nature of consoles.
*
Because it's not upgradeable maa.
PC you can upgrade the component to make it more powerful, but you can't upgrade console.

.... I read somewhere that someone modded his Xbox with 1.4 Ghz CPU. Double the original speed. But not compitable with some games. sweat.gif
Spawnster
post Mar 12 2005, 03:52 PM

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i think i read that xbox2 will hv 2gb hdd....
Hangmen
post Mar 12 2005, 03:56 PM

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QUOTE(tidusthecoolest @ Mar 12 2005, 03:46 PM)
Because it's not upgradeable maa.
PC you can upgrade the component to make it more powerful, but you can't upgrade console.

.... I read somewhere that someone modded his Xbox with 1.4 Ghz CPU. Double the original speed. But not compitable with some games.  sweat.gif
*
Probably after two years of the next-gen console's life, newer and more powerful PC hardware will appear. There will probably be like a 5.2Ghz CPU and 1GB RAM is becoming a minimum, with newer mobos supporting more than 16GB of RAM, as well as new 80GB HD being available for as low as RM150 (or even lower!). Heck who knows, perhaps there will be the likes of nVidia Geforce 8800 Ultra or ATI Radeon X1850XT with 512MB or more video memory. At that point, it is likely standard for most mid-range graphic cards to run Doom 3 at 60fps on 1280 x 1024 and for low-end ones to run at 40+fps on 1024 x 768. The possibilities of the future is many and awesome.

This post has been edited by Hangmen: Mar 12 2005, 03:57 PM
Hangmen
post Mar 12 2005, 04:01 PM

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...which makes me think? What will the likes of PS4 and XBOX 3 be? Only future trends in the upcoming consoles of PS3 and XBOX 2 will tell.
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post Mar 12 2005, 04:01 PM

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yeah the problem is can u keep up with the $$$$....that's the question. that's why i got the xbox....after calculating how much it'll cost to upgrade my P3 933 to at least a 2.8ghz machine.... 'nuff said. tongue.gif
billytong
post Mar 12 2005, 04:06 PM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ Mar 11 2005, 09:35 AM)
But i can't understand...why use specialize mem card....allow us to plug in cheap thumbdrive lar!!! But at least it's not only 8MB...
*
Think again, Why would I(as microsoft,Sony,nintendo) want to give the business to thumb drive company when I sell 8MB memory card at a good price?

QUOTE(tidusthecoolest @ Mar 12 2005, 03:08 AM)
Optional HDD for Xbox 2? Why make it optional?
*
if I not mistaken...from the net news.....by making the HDD optional is to reduce the overall cost of XBOX. This can allow microsoft improve its price competitive.

A HDD cost nearly RM200. It is not a RM20 product that u can simply add in.
tidusthecoolest
post Mar 12 2005, 04:14 PM

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QUOTE(billytong @ Mar 12 2005, 04:06 PM)
Think again, Why would I(as microsoft,Sony,nintendo) want to give the business to thumb drive company when I sell 8MB memory card at a good price?
if I not mistaken...from the net news.....by making the HDD optional is to reduce the overall cost of XBOX. This can allow microsoft improve its price competitive.

A HDD cost nearly RM200. It is not a RM20 product that u can simply add in.
*
But surely they can get discount for buying HDD in bulk right?
Microsoft's reason to get rid of HDD is probably their Memory Card didn't sell well because people are saving all their games in the HDD instead of Memory Card.
nairud
post Mar 12 2005, 04:38 PM

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Additional Xbox Xenon Info

QUOTE

# Wireless Options: Xenon will enable both wired and wireless controllers (like the Nintendo WaveBird or the Logitech controllers), and will come with RF receivers for wireless options. The system also supports an optional Internet router/adapter.


# Controllers: The new controllers will be around the same size as the current S-controllers. Microsoft has eschewed the dual triggers for shoulder buttons, and the design is said to be a mixture between the current S-controllers and the current PS2 controllers. They will not feature slots for memory cards, which, we're told, are on the console itself. The system supports 64 megabyte memory cards. There are three controller slots, two controllers on front of the system, plus one USB on the back. Controllers have 2.5mm jacks for headset use.


# Console Design: The Xenon console design is said to be much smaller than Xbox, which seems obvious. The new design is styled less like a Corvette and more organic in shape. Its size falls somewhere between the new slimmer PS Two and original PS2.
Hangmen
post Mar 12 2005, 04:42 PM

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Sony seemed obsessed with the number three. I remember that the PS1 CPU is 33Mhz. When the PS2 came out, the CPU is 333Mhz. So, do you think that the next console, the PS3 will have a 3.3Ghz (3333Mhz) CPU?
nairud
post Mar 12 2005, 04:46 PM

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still, if they really come out with a 3G processor, it wouldn't beat the 3 processor running in Xenon.
tidusthecoolest
post Mar 12 2005, 05:57 PM

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Ah, I read from IGN that to play Xbox games on Xbox to we have to buy the optional HDD. Xbox 2 is using laptop HDD and not desktop HDD like Xbox 1.
nairud
post Mar 12 2005, 07:53 PM

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nowadays, laptop HD are easy to find already. so no prob tongue.gif
PrivateJohn
post Mar 12 2005, 08:28 PM

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QUOTE(silkworm @ Mar 12 2005, 08:19 AM)
I wouldn't get my hopes up about going to E3. The show isn't open to the general public. sad.gif
QUOTE(from www.e3expo.com official website of e3 2005)
Frequently Asked Questions

Is the show open to the public?

No, E3 is not open to the public. E3 is a trade event and only professionals from the industry will be allowed to attend. Individuals who are not able to document their direct and current professional affiliation to the interactive entertainment industry are not qualified to attend E3. All E3 attendees are required to show government-issued photo I.D. (such as a driver's license or passport) upon request.
*
SUXOR.

QUOTE(tidusthecoolest @ Mar 12 2005, 05:57 PM)
Ah, I read from IGN that to play Xbox games on Xbox to we have to buy the optional HDD. Xbox 2 is using laptop HDD and not desktop HDD like Xbox 1.
*
That sux. I have bad karma with laptop hdd which die off easier. (experienced it...3 laptop hdd gone)

Wait a minute, what you means is in order to play xbox games on xbox next, you need to buy optional hdd?If xbox next games, the default settings will do?

Oh man, that's great. Remember it's not suppose to be backwards compatibility. So that's the loophole microsoft been talking abt. Before that they can't make it backwards compatibility 'coz of legal binding, nvidia etc and they said they gona find a way to make it happen.
tidusthecoolest
post Mar 12 2005, 09:04 PM

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QUOTE(PrivateJohn @ Mar 12 2005, 08:28 PM)
*

That sux. I have bad karma with laptop hdd which die off easier. (experienced it...3 laptop hdd gone)

Wait a minute, what you means is in order to play xbox games on xbox next, you need to buy optional hdd?If xbox next games, the default settings will do?
*
Yes, The HDD is only needed to play Xbox 1 games. Also if you want to use custom soundtrack. I think the load time of Xbox 2 game will decrease if we have the HDD installed.

Laptop HDD is expensive. 40 GB is RM 275 and 100 GB is RM 780. And still not sure whether we can buy any laptop HDD and plug it in or need some kind of adapter to attach it (like PS2).

But using laptop's HDD will make Xbox 2 unit smaller and slimmer.

This post has been edited by tidusthecoolest: Mar 12 2005, 09:05 PM
PrivateJohn
post Mar 12 2005, 09:24 PM

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Sony promises developers an easy ride on PS3
Hangmen
post Mar 12 2005, 10:05 PM

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The 25GB Blu-Ray discs makes me think, do we really need that much of a storage? I mean, 10GB sounds reasonable. I'm worried that the trend of putting cheap, generic extras (galleries, interviews, scene viewer, etc) just to fill in the freespace will become all too common. How will console ports to the PC be? Perhaps that is why high capacity HDs of 200GB and above are slowly becoming affordable to mid-range users. Heck, add in maybe another three years and low-end users may be able to enjoy that luxury for a third or less of the price three years before.
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post Mar 13 2005, 04:41 AM

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GDC: Getting Unreal with Epic's Mark Rein

QUOTE
MR: There's no question that the graphics are going to be a huge upgrade. You know, people are such snobs, with this "oh, it's not about graphics" thing. That's such nonsense. It's totally about graphics, What's the difference between the first Metal Gear Solid and the latest Metal Gear Solid? Right, it's "wow, the graphics!" There's no question, that's going to be the first thing that people see - they're going to see that the visuals are just spectacular.

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post Mar 16 2005, 07:18 AM

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A peak at the next Xbox's launcher
snipersnake
post Mar 16 2005, 04:01 PM

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i dunno bout the blu ray disc....but i heard the nextboxt gonna have dvd9 as standard media!!

dang!!


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post Mar 16 2005, 06:42 PM

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Why dang? Should be good news for pirates and users from this side of the globe. Otherwise people might just pack up and publicly claim gaming being too expensive and quit altogether.
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post Mar 16 2005, 09:41 PM

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I am just worried how much all the next gen games gona cost as the game developing are getting more and more expensive. Just wondering whether i could afford ori in the years to come.
Price of ori is very high already, so as an alternative to "game rental"...malaysia have its own robin hood.
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post Mar 16 2005, 09:53 PM

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QUOTE(stringfellow @ Mar 16 2005, 06:42 PM)
Why dang? Should be good news for pirates and users from this side of the globe. Otherwise people might just pack up and publicly claim gaming being too expensive and quit altogether.
*
I AGREE! I am so glad they use back the DVD. But if use HD-DVD oso not bad i think.
cocklea
post Mar 16 2005, 09:54 PM

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I hope this is not a repost:

user posted image
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user posted image
cocklea
post Mar 16 2005, 09:55 PM

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Xbox 2 Gets More Square Enix Talent!!

Since the surprise announcement a couple of weeks back that Japanese development studio Mistwalker, a team headed up by Final Fantasy father Hironobu Sakaguchi, would be developing two Xbox 2 RPGs, things have seemingly gone quiet on the games... on our side of the Pacific, at least. In Japan, however, the island nation's most popular game magazine, Famitsu, has featured weekly interviews concerning the new projects.

This week's interview, conducted with Sakaguchi himself, contains a big surprise: more Square Enix talent for Xbox 2. According to the magazine, Daisuke Fukugawa, who previously served as battle planner on Final Fantasy Tactics and as planner for Legend of Mana is now serving at Mistwalker as director on one of the team's two projects. Hiroshi Arai, who supervised 3D graphic design for Final Fantasy 7 and served as modeling supervisor on Final Fantasy 9 is now at Mistwalker, doing modeling work on both projects.
Sakaguchi suggests in the interview that work on the new projects is progressing smoothly. Over one hundred developers are working on the games, which are being co-developed by Microsoft and Mistwalker. As was originally revealed, Mistwalker is working on the music and scenario sides of the games with Microsoft Game Studio handling the technical aspects.

If you want to play Sakaguchi games early in the next generation, you're going to have to get an Xbox 2. According to Sakaguchi, the only next generation games currently in development at Mistwalker are these two Xbox 2 titles, which pushes aside the possibility that the company is also developing for PlayStation 3 and Revolution at this time.
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post Mar 16 2005, 09:56 PM

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Microsoft Game Studios Chooses Unreal Engine 3

Epic Games, one of the world's leading developers of cutting-edge computer and videogames and the pioneer of the award-winning Unreal Engine, today announced that its Unreal Engine 3 technology and tools will be used in games developed by and published by Microsoft Game Studios.

Earlier this year, Epic became an official licensed tool and middleware provider for the next generation Xbox platform, and its partnership with Microsoft Game Studios further demonstrates its commitment to meet the challenges of developing for next generation hardware, and to deliver tools and technology that empower the development and publishing communities to efficiently deliver high quality, unique content.

In using Unreal Engine 3, the Microsoft Game Studios team will be able to truly exploit the unique hardware features of the next generation Xbox platform and harness the enormous power that its team has at its disposal.

"We only work with the best partners and utilize the best technologies, and Epic and the Unreal Engine 3 hit the mark on both those fronts," said Shane Kim, General Manager, Microsoft Game Studios. "Our teams are creating incredible games and content for the next generation Xbox platform, and by integrating Unreal Engine 3 into our development infrastructure we are able to really maximize our teams' performance and deliver the quality content and creativity that the market has come to expect from us."

Mark Rein, vice president of Epic Games agrees, "We are hugely excited that Microsoft Game Studios have selected Unreal Engine 3 for its next generation Xbox platform games. It's an opportunity for us to show the industry the true capabilities of our tools and technologies and is a testament to the incredible amount of hard work by our teams here to deliver tools and technologies that are 100% tuned into the needs of next generation development. It further demonstrates our ability to deliver the most flexible, most productive tools and technology in the market today."
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post Mar 17 2005, 09:38 AM

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QUOTE(PrivateJohn @ Mar 16 2005, 09:41 PM)
I am just worried how much all the next gen games gona cost as the game developing are getting more and more expensive. Just wondering whether i could afford ori in the years to come.
Price of ori is very high already, so as an alternative to "game rental"...malaysia have its own robin hood.
*
Somehow, I've a feeling that the industry might be killing itself with it's own weight...some developers commented that next-gen games are going to cost a heck lot more with more people needed and longer time to develop.

With all this factor in mind, publisher and developer will try to stay safe to tried and true formula...we are already seeing less and less original games this generation, only more sequels based on successful franchise.

I don't hope to see another industry blowout like the days of the Atari...

And yes, i think ori price will only go higher....i wish there's game rental in Malaysia too, i wouldn't mind renting original games which can play online and other benefits. But the cost is too prohibitive (imagine, one game is RM200 to RM300.....1000 titles in the library will cost RM200K to RM300K already)...and i don't think it can survive...look at DVD rental...only a few shop (only one i know of, actually, in Mont Kiara), which probably struggling to survive.

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post Mar 18 2005, 11:39 AM

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what happen to those good ol days where gaming is all about fun, not serious techie stuffs..
nairud
post Mar 18 2005, 02:25 PM

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I think the trend now is to have more realism and better graphics rather than gameplay and story.

That's why M$ is pushing for HD games in their Xenon
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post Mar 18 2005, 06:02 PM

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i just hope the push for realism and better graphics doesnt kill gameplay and story
SUSMatrix
post Mar 19 2005, 12:53 AM

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Here's an extremely nice read on tech details of the CELL chip.

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2379

Seems like it might not be much more powerful than the XBOX2 3 Dual Cores PowerPC chip....more importantly....IT DOESN'T SOUNDS LIKE EASY PROGRAMMING AT ALL.....seems like it's the PS2 all over again....at least, with Nvidia at helm with the GPU, we don't have to worry so much about jaggies!!!

Chee
post Mar 20 2005, 05:17 PM

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i found this at one of the xbox next generation website.

user posted image

user posted image

This post has been edited by Chee: Mar 20 2005, 05:18 PM
Hangmen
post Mar 20 2005, 09:10 PM

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Perhaps the 21st century trend in games is better graphics. I mean, new skoolers nowadays prefer eye-busting graphics more than new gameplay mechanics. Otherwise, they'll whine crap like:
- "OMG, game is RoXXorz but gfx so SuXXorz!"
- "Why the hell did [insert reviewer here] gave [insert title here] a 9 out of 10? With the graphics as ugly as a 6-year-old drawing, it must've suck, and the strange thing is, I never even own or played that game!"
^Trust me, I met someone like that before, really piss me off! mad.gif
Yup, its new engine and an old chassis. I guess for us old skoolers who had been on the scene for quite some time, the era of gameplay revolution is over. Maybe it isn't, but its my opinion anyway. wink.gif
PrivateJohn
post Mar 21 2005, 04:37 AM

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For me...what i hate next gen is all my adventure game are gone. Monkey island, sam & max etc. Look at lucasart...what type of game he is releasing now.
PrivateJohn
post Mar 21 2005, 04:40 AM

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QUOTE(Chee @ Mar 20 2005, 05:17 PM)
i found this at one of the xbox next generation website.

user posted image

user posted image
*
The first picture microsoft dude already confirm it's a fake.
Second picture is somebody on the forum design and he/she hope the next gen would look like that.
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post Mar 21 2005, 02:23 PM

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it's still big for the first pic....what microsoft wants now is portibility, and small form factor.
bug_vengeance
post Mar 21 2005, 04:13 PM

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but the 2nd pic looks cool
futuristic
Hangmen
post Mar 22 2005, 07:06 PM

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Well, I don't think console-makers should overemphasize design. What matters is whats on the inside, not the outside.
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post Mar 22 2005, 07:35 PM

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QUOTE(Hangmen @ Mar 22 2005, 07:06 PM)
Well, I don't think console-makers should overemphasize design. What matters is whats on the inside, not the outside.
*
I thought alot don't like xbox bulky look?
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post Mar 22 2005, 07:49 PM

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QUOTE(Hangmen @ Mar 22 2005, 07:06 PM)
Well, I don't think console-makers should overemphasize design. What matters is whats on the inside, not the outside.
*
no not the inside that counts,its the game if xbox have FFX then people would chose xbox not ps2 ,so u can have all those fancy feature but with bad games.its not gonna last long
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post Mar 22 2005, 08:02 PM

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next gen ps3 i hope would be as small as a PS TWO (the new version) and with the introduction of cell processors for ps3, itll sure leave xbox in the dust. ^^

+ i hope tht ps3 would have a chromed look and the word ps3 illuminates whnever the console is in use, tht'll be cool. hehe..
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post Mar 22 2005, 08:43 PM

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it would be better if it glow in the dark tongue.gif
Hangmen
post Mar 23 2005, 01:22 PM

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QUOTE(PrivateJohn @ Mar 22 2005, 07:35 PM)
I thought alot don't like xbox bulky look?
*
But I think that the X-Box is bulky because it needs to fit in all its hardwares and internal components and stuff. Instead of just the design, they should also focus on what materials are they using. That way, maybe it can reduce cost and weight.
fariz
post Mar 24 2005, 09:05 AM

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here's another PS3 mockup..

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/playstation-3...t-images-036977

user posted image
user posted image
nairud
post Mar 24 2005, 10:28 AM

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it's so frickin bulky for a PS3 laugh.gif
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post Mar 24 2005, 02:18 PM

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errrr... UMD slot?? U can play ur PSP games on Ps3?? if that is real, awesomeness!!!!! Wheres the Blu-Ray slot????????? ANd controller port oso seems to be missing.

i read in the link u posted, confirm fake. Its actually a photoshopped Digital Camera wacko.gif wacko.gif Expert sial!

This post has been edited by cocklea: Mar 24 2005, 02:22 PM
PrivateJohn
post Mar 24 2005, 02:25 PM

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If you have ps3...i don't think you will still remember what is psp.
Hangmen
post Mar 29 2005, 01:15 AM

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Well, if it doesn't transform into a giant robot in which whiny 12~14 year olds can ride on, then its not a PS3. laugh.gif

Seriously, is it just me or the next-gen features are incredibly predictable? Example: will feature better online play, a hell lot more stuff to download, ability to render sharply complex and power-hungry graphics, etc. Console-makers should try to come up with something that the consumers wont expect if they want to gain momentum in the upcoming next-gen console wars. What should they come up with? hmm... I give up.
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post Mar 29 2005, 08:30 AM

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john,
why would you think that those ps3 owners will not remember what's a PSP?
PrivateJohn
post Mar 29 2005, 10:20 AM

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QUOTE(nairud @ Mar 29 2005, 08:30 AM)
john,
why would you think that those ps3 owners will not remember what's a PSP?
*
Erm let say...tekken 6, metal gear solid 4, final fantasy 20....you will be sitting there playing that instead of psp. PSP are for mobile use anyway. Currently the graphic is abt the same as ps2, so sometimes eventhough you are not travelling you will still play it at home.
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post Mar 29 2005, 10:43 AM

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QUOTE(PrivateJohn @ Mar 29 2005, 10:20 AM)
Erm let say...tekken 6, metal gear solid 4, final fantasy 20....you will be sitting there playing that instead of psp. PSP are for mobile use anyway. Currently the graphic is abt the same as ps2, so sometimes eventhough you are not travelling you will still play it at home.
*
yes, when those are out and you'll be playing it at home. but you did say about travelling. that's where PSP comes in, just like what GBA is hanging around kids' neck walking in shopping malls playing it.

If someone is on the go, PSP will come into play. Ppl will still remember and will use PSP.
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post Mar 29 2005, 11:13 AM

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nolar, PS3 keluar, pple buang PSP tunggu PSP2 laugh.gif
SUSMatrix
post Mar 29 2005, 06:01 PM

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I agreed with hangmen...it is all getting pretty stale...frankly, i don't need next gen console rite now....the current gen console are just fine especially the XBOX. And i'm not excited at all by MS GDC presentation which shows a lot of useless online features, more ways to squeeze money from gamers, and even....horrors!! advertisment in your games!!!

If the next gen turns out like this, I'll just keep playing the current consoles and dig up all the old ROMS and emulators....there's a whole lot of games in there!

eone
post Mar 29 2005, 11:16 PM

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concept on creating ur own model skin or even might the mesh as well and put it for sale online, quite coooool
Hangmen
post Mar 30 2005, 01:42 PM

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Well, if they want to make an upgradeable console, that'll be a great idea IMO.
Advantage:
- Will make that particular console live possibly twice longer than others.
- Harder to ditch that particular console due to upgradeability.
- Console modding anyone?

But...
Disadvantage:
- ...if they come up with cheapo useless upgrades just like the Sega CD or Sega 32X.
^ Seriously, if you remember the ol' console race of Genesis VS SNES, you know what those are and how it went.

Another feature that I hope future console games should have: visual tweaks. Turn off or on neccessary or unneccessary features to make the game run faster or better, like body counts, decals, anti-aliasing, etc.
tidusthecoolest
post Mar 30 2005, 01:49 PM

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Upgradeable console is a no-no to game developer.
Simply because not all gamer will buy the upgrade.
And game developer will think twice to make a game that needs the upgrade because only gamers who buys the upgrade will consider buying the game.

Example: PS2 HDD & Network Adapter.

PS2 is not as successfull as Xbox in online gaming simply because not every gamers buys the network adapter/ HDD upgrade.
Xbox is more successful because they have it built into their console since launch. This is probably why the new slim PS2 is now shipped standard with network adapter built in.

This post has been edited by tidusthecoolest: Mar 30 2005, 01:50 PM
Hangmen
post Mar 30 2005, 07:51 PM

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Sigh, alright, that ain't cool then.
Well, if they give console the ability to download Torrents, that'll be a good thing, until the RIAA and MPAA bust your house with MP5s and... laugh.gif

Ok, seriously, I don't think downloadable paid games will be popular either. Sooner or later, something like what I mentioned above will appear: a site which hosts illegally downloadable games for nothing at all.

This post has been edited by Hangmen: Mar 30 2005, 07:51 PM
SUSMatrix
post Mar 31 2005, 10:12 AM

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Yeah...upgradable consoles...SURE DIE. History has prove it self many times over since the 70's...there were many consoles no one remember today that has provide upgrades even before SEGA CD or 32X....all failed.

For a good look at consoles history , pls go to: www.classicgaming.com

You'll be enlightened. smile.gif

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post Mar 31 2005, 11:01 AM

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Well, if it's upgradable for media center purpose then why not? It could save the cost, some might just wana play the game whilst some wana make it a home media center.
Hangmen
post Mar 31 2005, 11:09 AM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ Mar 31 2005, 10:12 AM)
Yeah...upgradable consoles...SURE DIE. History has prove it self many times over since the 70's...there were many consoles no one remember today that has provide upgrades even before SEGA CD or 32X....all failed.

For a good look at consoles history , pls go to: www.classicgaming.com

You'll be enlightened. smile.gif
*
Yeah, I knew that already, that's why I mentioned:
QUOTE
But...
Disadvantage:
- ...if they come up with cheapo useless upgrades just like the Sega CD or Sega 32X.
^ Seriously, if you remember the ol' console race of Genesis VS SNES, you know what those are and how it went.
PrivateJohn
post Apr 1 2005, 12:31 AM

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Xbox 360: Downloadable Demos From Day One, Wireless and data storage via PC

QUOTE
Interestingly, SPOnG has had it confirmed by several senior sources that the Xbox 360 will feature wireless connectivity out of the box. Furthermore, data storage via PC will be featured, though information seen to date makes reference to this being used solely for media storage. However, downloadable Xbox content could, in theory, be stored too, though we should make it clear that the possibility of such content being stored in this way is mere speculation at this point.
This post has been edited by PrivateJohn: Apr 1 2005, 12:34 AM
SUSMatrix
post Apr 5 2005, 08:49 AM

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I still think XBOX 360 is a dumb name...but i can see why MS don't want to call it XBOX2 as it'll be deemed inferior to the PS "3".

But at least give it a better name...XBOX Windows?? LOL.
eone
post Apr 5 2005, 01:34 PM

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then xbox '4' lar, superior than ps3 ^^
PrivateJohn
post Apr 6 2005, 12:27 AM

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Okamoto hints at more Japanese support for Xbox 2

QUOTE
Okamoto didn't give any specifics of what titles Game Republic is working on for the next-gen console, but he did confirm that due to the company's deal with Microsoft Game Studios, the titles would be fully exclusive to Xbox 2 - with no chance of them being ported to other consoles, which he described as "a disappointment".


If it's not money, i seriously don't know what is causing that. Microsoft must have spent hell lots of money in securing all of these exclusive deal.

As for the name, if between xbox next and 360...i would prefer the earlier one.
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post Apr 6 2005, 12:29 AM

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QUOTE(Hangmen @ Mar 30 2005, 07:51 PM)
Sigh, alright, that ain't cool then.
Well, if they give console the ability to download Torrents, that'll be a good thing, until the RIAA and MPAA bust your house with MP5s and... laugh.gif

Ok, seriously, I don't think downloadable paid games will be popular either. Sooner or later, something like what I mentioned above will appear: a site which hosts illegally downloadable games for nothing at all.
*
eh my xbox can download torrent. hehehehe smile.gif
do it in XBMC.. biggrin.gif
PrivateJohn
post Apr 6 2005, 01:05 PM

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CNN Gives a Sneak Peek to Next Xbox

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Three days before it officially begins, the company will finally take the wraps off of its next generation Xbox (which will almost certainly be named Xbox 360).


Awww gawd....microsoft is doom.
SUSMatrix
post Apr 6 2005, 06:36 PM

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I hope it don't turn out as a yo-yo. LOL. 360 indeed. Stupidest name ever for a console? But then again Dreamcast sounds stupid also..
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post Apr 7 2005, 12:16 AM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ Apr 6 2005, 06:36 PM)
I hope it don't turn out as a yo-yo. LOL. 360 indeed. Stupidest name ever for a console? But then again Dreamcast sounds stupid also..
*
and i thought xbox360 sounds like... a shoe like that.. erm..
i would prefer xboxnext!
PrivateJohn
post Apr 8 2005, 11:24 PM

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If xbox 360 i would use a sticker to cover the figure 360.

Microsoft Announces Publishers Committed to Deliver Content for Next-Generation Xbox Platform

QUOTE
These premier publishers join Microsoft Game Studios, whose stable of game developers will bring exclusive content to the next-generation Xbox platform. These developers include BioWare Corp., Bizarre Creations Ltd., Bungie Studios, Epic Games Inc., FASA Studio, Lionhead Studios Ltd., Rare Ltd., as well as newcomers Yoshiki Okamoto's Game Republic Inc., Hironobu Sakaguchi's Mistwalker and Tetsuya Mizuguchi's Q Entertainment Inc.

fariz
post Apr 9 2005, 09:59 AM

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http://gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7881
QUOTE
Scheduling clash prompts media fears, gives PS3 a short head-start over Xbox 2

The PlayStation 3 looks set to be the first of the next-generation consoles to take a bow in front of the world's media - albeit only by a matter of hours, with Sony announcing that its pre-E3 conference will take place just ahead of Microsoft's.

Sony will hold its event on a sound stage in Sony Pictures' complex in Culver City, just outside Los Angeles, at 15.00 PST on Monday, May 16th, and is expected to show off the next-generation PlayStation for the first time at this event.

Three hours later at 18.00 PST, Microsoft will kick off its own event in downtown Los Angeles, where it is expected to finally take the wraps off the next-generation Xbox, currently known only by its development codename Xenon.

The scheduling is threatening a headache for media and industry types who need to attend both events, since if the Sony event runs on for a while it could be quite tough to get from Culver City back into downtown LA in time for the 6pm kick-off with Microsoft.

Outline hardware specifications for both systems are fairly well known; the Sony system uses the custom Cell processor, created in partnership with IBM, and a next-gen NVIDIA graphics chipset, while Microsoft has opted for standard IBM Power-series processors and an ATI graphics solution.

However, a number of key elements remain to be confirmed, such as the amount of RAM in the systems, the type of media they will use - PS3 is expected to use high capacity Blu-Ray discs, while Xbox may well stick with the current DVD technology - and whether either will feature a hard drive

Of course, what many consumers will want to know is simply what the devices look like, with the external appearance of both systems being kept a closely guarded secret so far - and, indeed, what they're called, as neither company is expected to use the obvious "PlayStation 3" and "Xbox 2" naming scheme.

mark your calendar people..
PrivateJohn
post Apr 9 2005, 01:13 PM

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Metronome Announced

Trailer

I can't wait for this adventure game! Using sound & noise? Ouch!

QUOTE
Key Features

Sound recording
Record and store any sound you can hear. Different sounds have different properties making them valuable for a wide variety of tasks.

Use recorded sounds in various ways
Fight enemies by using loud and destructive sounds.
Manipulate and soothe characters by using melodious and seductive sounds.
Fool enemies by clever usage of the right sounds at the right time.

Sound based problem solving
Record and replace the sounds of objects in the world to make them behave differently, combine recorded sounds to create new functionality and fuse them into items.

Make some noise
Can't find the specific sound you need? Create it yourself! Shove a bookcase down some stairs, throw a rock through a window or simply annoy someone enough to make them shout at you and then record the result.

Planting ideas
By merging collected sounds and various ingredients, ideas can be created. Ideas that can be used to inspire and control citizens.

Cinematic soundtrack integration
Our music system allows unprecedented control over the presentation and style of the gameworld. Subtly let the footsteps of a shady character you are following coincide with the sneaky beat of the music, have him stop and look over his shoulder exactly as the music pauses."

Technology
Metronome is powered by Artificial Studios' Reality Engine

PrivateJohn
post Apr 10 2005, 03:52 PM

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Tsuyoshi Tanaka interview (man behind devil may cry 3), i just extract some interesting one, for full interview go get a copy of edge (march)magazine.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

When you talk about the action game market for the ps2, what do you consider the competition to be?
We don't consider there's much that rivals DMC3. Tetal Gear Solid is not really an action game....so i can't think of any competition in this genre

Has Capcop begun next-generation work?
Yea, we are already thinking about it. I'm very interested in network communication so I'm getting ready for PSP. The reason why i like PSP so much is because in my mind games should be very casual. You can just pick one up [lifts pencil case] and enjoy it, then put it away. The graphics are good, the sound is really good. I'm already thinking about how to incorporating some cool music into my games. It's a great machine.

Where do you see gaming in five years?
First of all I should say this is my opinion, not Capcom's. So, personally, I'm not sure how Nintendo is going to be in four or five years' time. It's hard to tell because i still think Mr Miyamoto's games are interesting and will continue to be so. Having said that, Xbox 2 is going to be really popular. I think Xbox 2 will be a hit. American games are growing and becoming more popular., and that thrend is going to continue on Xbox 2.

It's been interesting to see that the original Xbox failed to catch on in Japan, though.
First of all, the japanese are simply not into games at the moment. Halo 2 sold 5-6 million around the world, but it didn't reach 100,00 copies in Japan. There was a feeling that western games were not suitable for Japanese players, but actually Halo 2 is perfectly suitable for Japanese tastes. However, it came out at the wrong time and did not sell. It's camethe same with the Xbox itself : everyone already has a PS2 and a GameCube. Ps2 won. Japanese gamers didn't have any need to buy another console, so Xbox was just too late. And it's not just Microsoft's games - I like GTA, but it only sold about 300,000 in Japan even with the PS2 numbers being what they are. It's a conservative time fot the market.

What's your take on Nintendo's DS?
I think it's interesting. I have one idea i'd like to take to DS. However, the majority of opinion is that PSP is going to be bigger. It's the same situation as the PS2: people in Japan bought the PS2 even if they didn't like games. They could use it as a DVD player. With PSP you can download images from your camera, your computer, and so on - it has that ' not just a games machine' appeal.

Will that affect Nintendo's next console?
It's hard to say because when you look at the machines Microsoft and Sony are about to release it's not just about gaming, is it? They are multimedia devices. From that point of view, I have an expectation that Nintendo will release a pure games machine. That's why it came up with touchscreen technology. So there's no comparison there. It depend on the user, whether they want a pure gaming machine or something like the PS2. It was a trend that consumers went for a PS2. Maybe there'll be another trend for pure gaming. nintendo could still surprise us all.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


-No wonder microsoft is like an 'ol lady who can't wait but to rush out its next gen console.

-His comment about the Halo 2 is actually quite true, i can't believe there are more Hardcore Team Fortress Classic (fps) Players in Japan comparing to other country, visit own-age.com if you wana view their clan video (the last dinasour 2)

-It's true next gen console are trying to make it a product for everybody instead of "console? what? for kids? No thanks"
Electronic Entertainment business is just getting bigger and bigger.
rEDs
post Apr 10 2005, 05:01 PM

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next gen console?

i'll get the phantom console...lol.
SUSMatrix
post Apr 12 2005, 09:05 PM

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QUOTE(rEDs @ Apr 10 2005, 05:01 PM)
next gen console?

i'll get the phantom console...lol.
*
The phantom is some of the dumbest idea in decades. It has zero unique selling point.

(1) NO CONSOLE GAMES. - it's just playing standard PC games in a console! Console gamers don't want this sh**.

(2) UNDERPOWERED PC - As PC gamers are more likely to invest in high-end hardware and worry more about FRAMES PER SECOND/3D MARK 05 scores than the game itself, the phantom is outdated even before it hit shelves.

(3) INFERIOR ONLINE GAMING - PC Online gamers and XBOX Live is already well established. There's no need for this.

(4) BROADBAND DOWNLOAD - Not everyone has broadband. it is just limiting it's own market.

Basically console gamers will shun it because there's no console specific games while PC gamers will ignore it because it's an outdated piece of crap.

They should just give me their money to invest in a burger stall or something. laugh.gif

This post has been edited by Matrix: Apr 12 2005, 09:06 PM
PrivateJohn
post Apr 13 2005, 10:33 PM

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AGEIA Technologies Interview
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This post has been edited by PrivateJohn: Apr 13 2005, 11:17 PM
H@H@
post Apr 14 2005, 06:33 AM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ Apr 12 2005, 09:05 PM)
The phantom is some of the dumbest idea in decades. It has zero unique selling point.

(1) NO CONSOLE GAMES. - it's just playing standard PC games in a console! Console gamers don't want this sh**.

(2) UNDERPOWERED PC - As PC gamers are more likely to invest in high-end hardware and worry more about FRAMES PER SECOND/3D MARK 05 scores than the game itself, the phantom is outdated even before it hit shelves.

(3) INFERIOR ONLINE GAMING - PC Online gamers and XBOX Live is already well established. There's no need for this.

(4) BROADBAND DOWNLOAD - Not everyone has broadband. it is just limiting it's own market.

Basically console gamers will shun it because there's no console specific games while PC gamers will ignore it because it's an outdated piece of crap.

They should just give me their money to invest in a burger stall or something. laugh.gif
*
Just to add, the Phantom will only be available in the US first and likely will never hit the Asian market. Anyway, I still think this is a piece of vaporware and doesn't deserve any attention.

But, I do like its keyboard/mouse combo...
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post Apr 14 2005, 09:50 AM

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QUOTE(H@H@ @ Apr 14 2005, 06:33 AM)
Just to add, the Phantom will only be available in the US first and likely will never hit the Asian market. Anyway, I still think this is a piece of vaporware and doesn't deserve any attention.

But, I do like its keyboard/mouse combo...
*
I seriously doubt it can even be released in the US, especially now with all the heat on for XBOX360/PS3. I suppose nobody even remember it!

btw, you can also get keyboard/mouse combo with on XBOX with an adapter.

This post has been edited by Matrix: Apr 14 2005, 09:52 AM
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Sony Wants to Avoid Blu-ray Disc HD DVD War

Looks like Sony gona abandon Blu-Ray disc anytime now.
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post Apr 14 2005, 11:47 PM

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QUOTE
The Xenon retail console will include 512 MB of UMA system memory. This is eight times the amount of memory that was available in the Xbox. The Xenon system software will still reserve six percent (32 MB) of total memory for system components, such as the visible features of the Xenon HUD, as well as the non-visible background system tasks.



Everything we have supports the Beta Hardware that will be shown at E3 - we hope to be able to support the Xbox's massive homebrew community well into the next few years - after all it's that same community that has helped to shape the Xbox's great success.

Xbox 360 Will Have 512Mb Memory

Thanks to the homebrew community we xbox user were able to enjoy all the extra features on our xbox. Microsoft acknowledge all their hardwork as well.
Microsoft didn't hunt down the homebrew software creator although they use copyrighted SDK etc from microsoft to create all of this (like XBMC).
That's why we goto compose the source code ourselves, they can't host it on their website. It's illegal.

Now on next gen console, microsoft was hoping to "Thanks" them by giving more support on the homebrew community. Kudos.
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post Apr 15 2005, 01:34 PM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ Apr 14 2005, 09:50 AM)
I seriously doubt it can even be released in the US, especially now with all the heat on for XBOX360/PS3. I suppose nobody even remember it!

btw, you can also get keyboard/mouse combo with on XBOX with an adapter.
*
I know you can, but the thing is, they made their keyboard and mouse combo in a way that you can use it on a couch (or at least free from the restraints of using a table)

Kinda hard to explain but it was shown at the last E3 and it does seem pretty interesting.
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post Apr 15 2005, 01:54 PM

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Ya saw it, have some kind of stands or something.
Maybe try using those tray, the one for having breakfast on your bed...don't know what's it call...put your keyboard and mouse on top.
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post Apr 15 2005, 02:10 PM

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no la, this one la ->user posted image

just using ur lap tu put it, and support both left/right handed
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post Apr 15 2005, 07:09 PM

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What i meant is for current console keyboard mouse converter.
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post Apr 20 2005, 02:09 AM

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The Xbox 360 is rumoured to come in 2 versions... One with a hard drive and another without...
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post Apr 20 2005, 08:12 PM

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QUOTE(Neowin)
Nintendo may leave Sony and Microsoft to squabble amongst themselves over who's got the best next-gen console at this year's E3, according to reports. Both the PS3 and Xbox 360 will go on show at the event, but reports from Japan say the Nintendo Revolution will remain under wraps. There'll be a few rolling demos of games currently in development, but no console and no revolutionary controller on display.

So why the decision to stay out of the limelight? Well, it seems that Nintendo boss Satoru Iwata is worried about rivals nicking all his best ideas at this early stage. That's how revolutionary the new console is, apparently... and also the exact same line Nintendo used to avoid showing Mario 128 at a previous E3. So what exactly can we expect to see on the Nintendo stand? Well, most of the space will be devoted to promoting the new Nintendo Online service.


Wacha wacha wacha wacha wacha!!!!
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post Apr 21 2005, 07:47 AM

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Ninja Gaiden Black, an Xbox 360 Launch Title?

user posted image

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post Apr 22 2005, 07:35 AM

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Well, to put all doubts to rest, Nintendo is coming to E3... What? Did you really think they were that stupid (and arrogant)?
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post Apr 22 2005, 11:17 AM

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QUOTE(H@H@ @ Apr 22 2005, 07:35 AM)
Well, to put all doubts to rest, Nintendo is coming to E3... What? Did you really think they were that stupid (and arrogant)?
*
nah...I don't think they're stupid or arrogant. i think they're just SCARED. From the looks around the net, all the hype is gearing towards XBOX2 and PS3. Nintendo has to decide if they want to clash on with the big boys. if their system fails to impress(which is very likely...in terms of hardware power, i don't see them able to beat MS or SONY this time.), it would be disaster for them and the "Revolution" will be introduced without anyone taking notice.

So, they actually opt for a strategy to introduced the Revolution when the heat is over for the PS3 and XBOX2. It's a strategy that can either backfire or succeed. if they wait too long, the possibility of the media losing interest is there. Also, if their hardware isn't up to mark and they wait longer, it'll even give worse impression.

So looks like they've decided to risk the head on collision...to keep the hype for the Revolution alive and hopefully, nobody will notice it'll be slightly inferior (if they wait for next E3, it'll definitely looks a lot inferior to the PC technology then and also the matured development of the other next gen consoles).

But i think they made a mistake...if they want to show at E3, they should have boiled up the hype with all sorts of "leaked" info to keep the media drooling, like SONY and MS. With the sudden turnaround of strategy, it reminds me of the Saturn when it was released unexpectedly in the US and nobody take notice due to lack of publicity and PR from SEGA then.


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post Apr 22 2005, 11:22 AM

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XBOX 360 PICS!! True or False?? Possibly true...but the design doesn't looks very nice...

user posted image

More readup at xbox.ign.com

http://xbox.ign.com/articles/606/606544p1.html

This post has been edited by Matrix: Apr 22 2005, 11:23 AM
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^saw that pic earlier... Can't make out much from it aside from the fact that it is chrome.

Anyway, dunno whether this has been posted, but here's some first pictures of the Xenon Development kit for the Xbox 360. Its a Mac G5 in case you're wondering.
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post Apr 22 2005, 06:16 PM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ Apr 22 2005, 11:17 AM)
But i think they made a mistake...if they want to show at E3, they should have boiled up the hype with all sorts of "leaked" info to keep the media drooling, like SONY and MS. With the sudden turnaround of strategy, it reminds me of the Saturn when it was released unexpectedly in the US and nobody take notice due to lack of publicity and PR from SEGA then.
*
nintendo always have a good fanbase..
ppl love nintendo's first party exclusive titles...
yes u can say GC's sales the poorest but remember that every GC owner buys original games.. unlike the ps2 and xbox...

the only thing i juz hope is juz that all the 3 systems dont come out near to each others release date...
if not... i dun think i have enough money..
other than that " LET THE CONSOLEZ WARZ II begins "
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Here's an interesting bit... A small link to a teaser for the XBox 360 unveiling on MTV... Doesn't show much really, but hey... it does drop some hints.
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post Apr 23 2005, 03:35 PM

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QUOTE(prazole @ Apr 22 2005, 06:16 PM)
nintendo always have a good fanbase..
ppl love nintendo's first party exclusive titles...
yes u can say GC's sales the poorest but remember that every GC owner buys original games.. unlike the ps2 and xbox...

the only thing i juz hope is juz that all the 3 systems dont come out near to each others release date...
if not... i dun think i have enough money..
other than that " LET THE CONSOLEZ WARZ II begins "
*
Err...i think everyone can afford to buy ori in US/EU/Japan where the main markets are, regardless of console system....if you're talking about local market, there's probably *less than 50 GC owners buying ori or otherwise.

And i really don't care about getting the next gen console first hand. let the price drop and until totally no more games being produced for PS2 and XBOX then only i'll consider getting one.


*A very pessimestic guess...which is likely true. LOL.

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Here's some more Xbox 360 pics... One here and another here.
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post Apr 25 2005, 09:22 AM

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More shocking news!

Well, sort of.

It seems like SONY and TOSHIBA is in negotiations to combine both the BlueRay disc and HD-DVD format. Currently, they still can't agree on the details and technology to use, but it's a step in the right direction.

Perhaps this is why the rumour of XBOX360 using the same DVD-ROM standard because the next-gen format is too late coming and still unfinalized. If this the case, the PS3 could be NOT using the Blue Ray standard also, but the new standard if they(SONY & TOSHIBA) can agree in time that is.

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post Apr 25 2005, 08:41 PM

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good that they still use DVD as media...
Its definitely easier for us malaysian gamer this way to get RM5 game.. smile.gif

plus i think right now only game dev start to utilise DVD9 format..
no need use new format la.. DVD9 can stay longer around:)
and lets say if they really need to put super high res video CG...
and high quality texture and sound.. i dont mind having like DVD1 and DVD2..


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post Apr 26 2005, 12:45 AM

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Toshiba Gives First Public Demo of the Cell

QUOTE
In the demo, 48 MPEG-2 streams stored on a HDD were read, decoded and projected to a 1080i resolution display divided into 8 x 6 cells, each of which showed a different video fitted to the cell size. The company expects to use this technology to display moving thumbnails in a video list.

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Some speculation about the Revolution... Courtesy of IGN

Its gonna feature some form of real-time 3D projection (Like a hologram) and their controller is gonna utilize a touchscreen or gyroscope thingamajig.

QUOTE
If that's not enough, he goes on. During the ShoWest film conference, a panel featuring George Lucus, Robert Zemekis, James Cameron, Robert Rodriguez, and a satellite feed from Peter Jackson discuss their plans to integrate cheap digital stereoscopic 3D into major theater chains by 2007. Here's where things get interesting: Burgess claims to know an agent who spoke to Robert Rodriguez, stating they knew of a game machine that would exploit this new wave of 3D entertainment well before Hollywood could jump in on the market.

Burgess goes on to say he spoke to an industry friend about his new theory, to which the industry friend said that Nintendo had shown a real-time 3D add-on for GameCube behind closed doors. When? At last year's Electronic Entertainment Expo in Los Angeles. Furthermore, Burgess claims the Revolution will certainly sport wireless controllers, among other, unknown wireless capabilities. Also, according to Burgess, the Revolution controller will feature either a touch-screen or some form of proprietary PDA device.

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Now that's cool.
If revolution machine design are not like gamecube, way cooler... i will take back my words on buying xbox 360 and ps 3....instead i will get xbox 360 and revolution.
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post Apr 27 2005, 09:06 AM

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3D hologram?? How would they project that? Do you still need a TV than? Or it's just an additional feature of the console?? Interesting.

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QUOTE(Matrix @ Apr 27 2005, 09:06 AM)
3D hologram?? How would they project that? Do you still need a TV than? Or it's just an additional feature of the console?? Interesting.
*
Ah, based on some discussion over at Evil Avatar, its probably not gonna be a hologram, but more like a projection with realistic depth...

Remember those special 3D glasses that you could buy and hook up to your Geforce cards in the PC? It works the same way except that you don't need the glasses. It sort of makes images "pop out" so you can define depth of field.
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QUOTE(H@H@ @ Apr 27 2005, 01:58 PM)
Ah, based on some discussion over at Evil Avatar, its probably not gonna be a hologram, but more like a projection with realistic depth...

Remember those special 3D glasses that you could buy and hook up to your Geforce cards in the PC? It works the same way except that you don't need the glasses. It sort of makes images "pop out" so you can define depth of field.
*
Interesting...but somehow i think this is a novelty. Sure it'll be nice...for the first few days at least...but after awhile, does it really improve the gameplay? Like the DS...despite all the "originality" claims...not a lot of games is really making use of the idea.

Also...i always have a phobia with these so called 3D effect...(like those wearing the glass)...basically it projects the images in two different colors (usually the green hue and the red hue) and slightly displaced. With the glasses, it tricks the eye into seeing the same object at different angles....what i'm worried is, WHAT LONG TERM EFFECT DOES IT HAVE ON MY EYES? This is no joke, my eyes isn't worth destroying over some "3D effect". Also, will you get cross eye in the long run?? Who knows.

Anyway, nobody knows what Nintendo have up their sleaves, but if it's something that does some trick to deceive my eyes, they better have an indepth explanation of the long term effects, if any.

This post has been edited by Matrix: Apr 27 2005, 02:17 PM
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post Apr 27 2005, 02:20 PM

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QUOTE(H@H@ @ Apr 27 2005, 01:58 PM)
Ah, based on some discussion over at Evil Avatar, its probably not gonna be a hologram, but more like a projection with realistic depth...

Remember those special 3D glasses that you could buy and hook up to your Geforce cards in the PC? It works the same way except that you don't need the glasses. It sort of makes images "pop out" so you can define depth of field.
*
One thing you can say about Nintendo, they produce unique hardware. Which is great really, pity that they lost sales (ie. Virtual Boy) because of their interest to bring in revolutionary stuff to consumers.
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QUOTE(Matrix @ Apr 27 2005, 02:16 PM)
Interesting...but somehow i think this is a novelty. Sure it'll be nice...for the first few days at least...but after awhile, does it really improve the gameplay? Like the DS...despite all the "originality" claims...not a lot of games is really making use of the idea.

Also...i always have a phobia with these so called 3D effect...(like those wearing the glass)...basically it projects the images in two different colors  (usually the green hue and the red hue) and slightly displaced. With the glasses, it tricks the eye into seeing the same object at different angles....what i'm worried is, WHAT LONG TERM EFFECT DOES IT HAVE ON MY EYES? This is no joke, my eyes isn't worth destroying over some "3D effect". Also, will you get cross eye in the long run?? Who knows.

Anyway, nobody knows what Nintendo have up their sleaves, but if it's something that does some trick to deceive my eyes, they better have an indepth explanation of the long term effects, if any.
*
Well, the 3D glasses use a similar system albeit with a different technique. Instead of the monitor projecting separate hues of colour and the glasses having different polaroid lenses, the GeForce glasses used different shutter speeds for each lense, so it framerate on each lense is different (Or is slightly of sync) to give you a change in depth.
Though it doesn't mess with the colour definition of your eyes, it does cause headaches if you play for long...

Which in hindsight would be a stupid move for Nintendo as you're asking ppl to play LESS.
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i wann see this in future consoles.
http://www.sega-16.com/Feature-%20Sega%20VR.htm
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post Apr 27 2005, 02:25 PM

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QUOTE(H@H@ @ Apr 27 2005, 02:21 PM)
Well, the 3D glasses use a similar system albeit with a different technique. Instead of the monitor projecting separate hues of colour and the glasses having different polaroid lenses, the GeForce glasses used different shutter speeds for each lense, so it framerate on each lense is different (Or is slightly of sync) to give you a change in depth.
Though it doesn't mess with the colour definition of your eyes, it does cause headaches if you play for long...

Which in hindsight would be a stupid move for Nintendo as you're asking ppl to play LESS.
*
LOL! That's a good one. Maybe additional video games warning are needed for the Revolution. U know usually, we only get the "shezepoid"...something warning about flashes of TV can cause seizure blah..blah..Now maybe we need special warning for this!

QUOTE(bem69)
One thing you can say about Nintendo, they produce unique hardware. Which is great really, pity that they lost sales (ie. Virtual Boy) because of their interest to bring in revolutionary stuff to consumers.
Revolutionary is fine and great, but at the same time IT MUST BE PRATICAL. Things that is not pratical, usually fails.


This post has been edited by Matrix: Apr 27 2005, 02:28 PM
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post Apr 27 2005, 09:15 PM

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Report: Cell Processor Impressive, but Not an Intel Killer

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"Some have called Cell an Intel killer, which is completely ridiculous," said Kevin Krewell, In-Stat analyst. "The only place where the Cell processor can be considered competition for Intel will be where the Sony Next Generation Game Console competes with the Media Center PC."


Xbox 360 Controller to be Longhorn Compatible

This post has been edited by PrivateJohn: Apr 27 2005, 10:04 PM
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post Apr 27 2005, 10:48 PM

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QUOTE(PrivateJohn @ Apr 27 2005, 09:15 PM)
uik, i tot 360 controller is wireless, no?
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post Apr 28 2005, 12:15 AM

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Don't know, if wireless also can be compatible with longhorn what?
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post Apr 28 2005, 08:57 AM

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QUOTE(PrivateJohn @ Apr 27 2005, 09:15 PM)
okay...now which one of us is going to pay USD 2,495 for that technical analyst report on the Cell?? sweat.gif
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post Apr 28 2005, 09:42 AM

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so is this really final design for 360?

user posted image
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post Apr 28 2005, 10:12 AM

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No idea....sound like it is but i think microsoft won't let real pic to leak...just some fakes to boost up the hype?
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post Apr 28 2005, 10:54 AM

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that image taken from computerandvideogames.com

here are what they said:

QUOTE
XBOX 360 UNLEASHED: FINAL DESIGN REVEALED

New ourcolony.net image confirms removable hard drive... Leaked render shows the whole thing!

16:51 Two stunning images of Microsoft's next-gen console have emerged from rabid internet forums, exposing the Xbox 360 in all its glory.
And while Microsoft has refused to comment on the accuracy of these images, our sources have confirmed that these are the most truthful visions of Xbox 360 yet seen.

The first image slipped out of ourcolony.net late on Friday. As you can see it's a more detailed vision of the previous ourcolony.net image we showed you here, but this time we're in no doubt as to what those strange bumps and lozenges are: This image seems to confirm that the Xbox 360 will indeed feature a removable hard drive, since a '40 GB' label is clearly visible.

The second image (thought to be a render rather than a photograph) initially appeared on internet forums but corresponds with the ourcolony.net picture - and was quickly endorsed by our sources.
As you can see, the Xbox 360 - which we'll be calling it from now on since the evidence is there in black and white - has a much slimmer figure than the current Xbox. It's sleek, smooth and white, with the same swooping design that has been discussed by insiders for weeks. You can also clearly see how it could be positioned vertically or horizontally.

Interestingly, the lack of controller ports (and the presence of an IR receiver) means that the Xbox 360 is very likely to use wireless controllers. The large circular power button, illuminated by green light, also confirms rumours of a 'ring of light' design. We're expect interesting and unusual features from this ring of light beyond just showing you that the console's powered up, but at the moment they remain a mystery.

With the official worldwide unveiling of the Xbox 360 only weeks away Microsoft is staying tight-lipped about these images. "Microsoft does not comment on rumour and speculation," said a spokesperson.

The next-gen console will be officially unveiled during a special MTV program to be broadcast around the world on May 12/13 (times and details here. More in-depth details will be discussed the following week at E3.

So there it is? What do you think? It's certainly different to the current Xbox. Let us know your opinions and ideas in the forums, and we'll bring you the latest on Microsoft's next-gen beast as it comes.



front image :http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/gmo...ox360_front.jpg

frm side view:
user posted image

looks like its still bulky...

This post has been edited by gmos: Apr 28 2005, 11:04 AM
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post Apr 28 2005, 11:03 AM

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shit. why they use proprietry memory unit? doh.gif
use thumbdrive la.
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post Apr 28 2005, 11:08 AM

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user posted image

that its called marketting strategy...all those accessory especially memcard will return them more profit..

ermm.i wonder..is that front xbox usb port is for controller?only 1 port?



This post has been edited by gmos: Apr 28 2005, 11:17 AM
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post Apr 28 2005, 11:26 AM

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Now the last picture...it really looks very convincing...
How big is the actual machine anyway? What microsoft did said is size between ps2 and ps2 slim...it doesn't look that way but it is smaller than xbox.

If that is the real machine, no port then how is it gona be compatible with longhorn OS? Let say the wireless receiver is built in...otherwise how else we gona use the wireless controller.
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I'm not too keen with wireless controllers for a few reasons:

(1) Weight
(2) Battery life!!! I'll hate recharging the controller every few days like what i'm doing with my Logitech mouse now. Long session of gaming will suck up battery fast....unless they have some new battery solution that can last a few weeks or so...but i doubt it. I wish there's an option of wired controllers.

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i heard that "lubang" beside the power button, might be where u can cucuk the original Xbox controller. Apparently it is hidden in the lubang there. i dunno, still a rumor, but i wish its true. Me too prefer a wired controller.
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post Apr 28 2005, 12:52 PM

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what about this ps3 mushroom like design..
and when the fliptop opened up,it looks abit like toilet seat. sweat.gif
anyway nice imagination though..
user posted image

This post has been edited by gmos: Apr 28 2005, 12:54 PM
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Hell naw ps3 gona look like that. First it looks so fake, second it doesnt look practical.
rash_462
post Apr 28 2005, 03:49 PM

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http://brokensaints.com/blog/?p=48#comments

QUOTE
It will also have gyroscopic controls, but like Brooke said, not all the games will use it. For instance, earlier I mentioned Nintendo has a Halo killer in development for the Revolution. This game will use the gyroscopic controls for aiming as wel as other things. Our game isn't using this function.

The controller will also be pressure sensitive. The pressure you put into it will determine certain things, such as movement. This is another optional capibility. Someone on Nintendo's board mentioned this months ago. They said that "touching is good, but feeling is better." This may sound strange, but it provides great controls. Racing games will really be helped by this control setting.

The Nintendo Revolution will also include voice control more advanced than anything seen so far. Nintendogs is just the beginning. To achieve this, Nintendo sent us headsets (similar to ones you can use for Xbox Live) that are wirelessless communicating with the console. Imagine being able to merely call for an airstrike or reload your gun by giving out commands orally. So far, we have put this feature to the test the most; as you can see, I'm excited over this feature.

"From what I've heard, Capcom and Namco are sold on the Revolution and are currently playing around with the development kits. I don't know whether they are actually making games for it though. I was suprised to hear that Square Soft has a game in development for the Revolution. It will be at E3 as well as some other next gen titles for the PS3."

"Microsoft is banking on stealing the show, but I think they will be upstaged by Nintendo as well as Sony. It's going to be very funny to see them trying to get people excited about Perfect Dark 0 when both Nintendo and Sony will be showing off Halo killers."

"All three consoles are going to be very powerful, trust me. I'll give you some information though: it will be more powerful than the Xbox 360. Much more powerful. Many gamers seem to think it will be as powerful as the GBA or something. That isn't the case at all. From what I saw during my time their as well as our game, it will be very capible. "

"As I mentioned earlier, Square Enix (happy now?) is developing a new game for the Revolution. EA, Sega, Zoonami, Namco, and Activision are currently working on games.

EA is playing around with the Revolution's capibilities, implementing them into another Madden game. This isn't really news though. From what I've heard, they are really going out of their way to make this more than just a port. Voice controls are being used to the max in this title. Calling out audibles will be used this way. The wireless capibilities of the system are also going to be used. Like I said, there will be no reason to buy Madden for the Xbox 360 when the Revolution version comes out.

Sega is developing three games for the Revolution that should be at E3. I'm not going to reveal too much on what they are up to for obvious reasons. The three games I listed does not include the game we are developing for them. You will be very suprised at what they are doing. I'm sure you have heard of the Xbox 360 title Condemned that they are working on. This game is something that many wouldn't expect Sega to make; you won't expect what you will see at E3. The other game they have is a typical, quirky Sega game. It's very interesting in the sense that it uses all the system's capibilities.

Zoonami has already given out some hints on what they are working on. I have always felt that Sam Fisher is a much better character than Solid Snake. Zoonami just might have some characters that are better than both of them.

Namco is working on a Revolution game, but I don't have details on it. I am sure that it is not a Soul Caliber III port. I don't see why they just won't add online play and Link and Ganon to the game and release it as a launch title. That would be a very smart move.

Activision is working on some ports for the Revolution. You will see what they have for the Xbox 360 at E3. At least one of these games will be ported to the Revolution for its launch."

"Like I said, I have seen seven Nintendo titles, some of which will be at E3. When the DS was launced, it had one sub par 1st party game. This will not be the case with the Revolution's launch. If they were to release all the games I've seen at launch, it would easily be the best launch ever for a console.

I can confirm that Nintendo is working on a new, orignal Mario game. In my opinion, the last few Miyamoto games havn't been that interesting. This will change with this game. Like Mario 64 for the N64, this game will introduce all of the capibilities of the console. It will use the pressure sensitive controls mainly, but the voice controls as well as gyroscopic controls will be used as well. From what I saw, this game will use mini games to introduce many of these schemes. All of these mini games could be released as stand alone games.

A new Super Smash Bros. Melee is in the works as well. This game will demonstrate the online functions of the Revolution. Nintendo has added many new things into the game, included a deeper combat system. Many more special moves are included as well as some very cool suprises. The levels will include some destructible environments, and the characters will be fully customizable. Want to play as Mario in his 80's outfit? Or would you prefer the 90's look? It's your choice. The most innovative part of the game is the different modes. In previous games, you were allowed to play in giant mode, metal mode, small mode, etc. That has changed. You will be able to choose to play in a "Paper" mode (a la Paper Mario), a cel shaded mode (Wind Waker), or Viewtiful Joe-esque mode.

As I said earlier, Retro is working on a Halo killer.This game is going to be one of the best games at E3. In my opinion, StarCraft was the best RTS ever. This game is going to use some similar ideas. In most FPS, you play as a hero trying to save the day. In Retro's game, they allow you to choose which storyline you want to play, just like StarCraft allows you to play as Terran, Zerg, etc. Biological weapons will play a major part in the game. Imagine fighting in a chemical plant, where toxics are stored everywhere. By shooting them, you emit the toxic. If you get hit by this stuff, many different things may happen. For instance, you may lose sight on the screen, your controls might be inverted or slowed down, etc. Or, if your character gets the fever, the controller might get hot. Very hot. The alien races are very interesting also. You will be able to switch to 3rd person in order to move faster (similar to running in Odd World: Stranger's Wrath). You will be able to "impregnate" human players by grabbing on to them for a certain amount of time. This will implant a NPC in them, which will burst out at your command, instantly killing the human player. You will then be able to use voice control to command the NPC."

eone
post Apr 28 2005, 04:49 PM

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define gyroscopic:

a device consisting of a spinning mass, typically a disk or wheel, mounted on a base so that its axis can turn freely in one or more directions and maintain its orientation regardless of any movement of the base

user posted image
SUSMatrix
post Apr 28 2005, 04:59 PM

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CONTROLLERS GETTING HOT??? VERY HOT??

BWAH! HAAAA! HAAAAA! That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard for a game console! Nay...for any electronic gadgets!!!

Imagine, you got 2 choice:
(1) Either burn your hands OR
(2) Drop the controllers


I can imagine the worldwide lawsuits lining up to get to Nintendo now... with hand injuries, mental distress, foot injuries(controllers dropped on foot) etc etc etc.

LOL.


Prophet
post Apr 28 2005, 06:24 PM

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I like this design ^^
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rEDs
post Apr 29 2005, 07:12 PM

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i dont give a damn about ps3 yet. even ff12 using ps2. and its still long way to go ff12 from the moment i post this, yet ps3 already in talk.at least when ff12 become "basi" then ps3 will be great buy.
stringfellow
post Apr 30 2005, 09:37 AM

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Analyst: Next-gen growth starts with PS3, no sooner
navilink
post Apr 30 2005, 08:27 PM

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QUOTE(Prophet @ Apr 28 2005, 06:24 PM)
I like this design ^^
user posted image
*

wow this was sooo COOLL! like a fax machine....is it real one?

Lord_darkslide
post Apr 30 2005, 10:49 PM

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just got my pstwo slilm line... hope ps3 wont gonna come out soon.... or.... i'll be damned..... doh.gif doh.gif
SUSMatrix
post May 1 2005, 12:46 AM

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QUOTE(rEDs @ Apr 29 2005, 07:12 PM)
i dont give a damn about ps3 yet. even ff12 using ps2. and its still long way to go ff12 from the moment i post this, yet ps3 already in talk.at least when ff12 become "basi" then ps3 will be great buy.
*
No worries, just sapu all the games of the PS2 and it'll probably last you until 2010 if you rigorously play and complete each and every of them...hee-hee.

I think software for PS2 should be still available at least until 2007...i hope.


PrivateJohn
post May 1 2005, 08:15 AM

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QUOTE(navilink @ Apr 30 2005, 08:27 PM)
wow this was sooo COOLL! like a fax machine....is it real one?
*
....
That can't be real, if anyone ever design that...is like puting a tag - "don't buy me" on top of 'em.

Anyway...
2 Days to Vegas (xbox 360) from IGN.
QUOTE
2 Days to Vegas is a story driven 3rd person action-adventure game. This contemporary gangster title features car chases, shootouts and unexpected twists to keep you on the edge of your seat throughout the game. The action is set in several major cities across the USA and takes place during a 48 hour period.
user posted image
user posted image
user posted image
user posted image
user posted image
user posted image
user posted image

This post has been edited by PrivateJohn: May 1 2005, 08:16 AM
nairud
post May 1 2005, 08:34 AM

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hot damn~ photorealistic graphics.
PrivateJohn
post May 1 2005, 08:38 AM

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The Anatomy of a System Launch - What does the next Xbox need to make an impact?

A very nice article by ign.

QUOTE
Relation to the Xbox 360: As the first system out of the gate after the end of the 32-bit era, to some, the Dreamcast arrived slightly too early. Pushing a console to market can be tricky for a number of reasons. On one side, a company can steal market share by trumping a competitor's outdated hardware. However, if consumers are still comfortable with their current console, they may just wait around for the next big thing. When the Dreamcast was released, many Sony fans didn't see a large enough advance in gameplay and graphics and decided to wait for the PS2.
This is very crucial to xbox 360 launch. If the "wow" effect is not there, it will be a failure. Xbox 360 are expected to ship on this christmas.

QUOTE
"I think price is huge. If they charge 400 for the console and 70 dollars per game, I don't think that will fly with the average consumer. If they charge that much, then the days of owning all 3 consoles is over."
-MinnesotaTwins

"Good launch games, decent price, and enough systems on shelves that anyone who wants one will be able to get them without paying a fortune on Ebay."
-juanjorge

"(Microsoft) has to tout every single feature it has, I want to know exactly what it can do and why it's better than what I have."
-CyboSage

"A promising list of future titles needs to be offered up at launch to comfort the consumer and ensure that they feel that they have picked the right system."
-sc285

"They need to advertise that this platform will have the best games. Simple as that. It all comes down to games people, and if your average gamer doesn't see anything to get excited about then this launch wont be acceptable.

Also, a reasonable price range is required and I personally think they should release an HD only bundle at launch. This way developers can be ensured that the hard drive will be in plenty of homes."
-Proteus4

"Speaking from a retail perspective, one of the things Microsoft did right with the first Xbox launch was to supply retail stores with information pertaining to the machine and its games."
-Eponine


Xbox Hardware: Entering the HD Era
A guide to understanding the changeover to high definition.

This post has been edited by PrivateJohn: May 1 2005, 08:44 AM
daruma
post May 1 2005, 09:45 AM

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QUOTE(Prophet @ Apr 28 2005, 06:24 PM)
I like this design ^^
user posted image
*
OMG!!! kero kero.
it's damn fugly. shakehead.gif .
cyclone9
post May 1 2005, 01:44 PM

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WOW PS3 Graphic? tongue.gif
Souce
PrivateJohn
post May 1 2005, 01:49 PM

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I posted in previous page, it's next gen console's grapihc.

2 Days to Vegas (xbox 360) from IGN.
QUOTE
2 Days to Vegas is a story driven 3rd person action-adventure game. This contemporary gangster title features car chases, shootouts and unexpected twists to keep you on the edge of your seat throughout the game. The action is set in several major cities across the USA and takes place during a 48 hour period.
user posted image
user posted image
user posted image
user posted image
user posted image
user posted image
user posted image
prazole
post May 1 2005, 04:11 PM

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QUOTE(PrivateJohn @ May 1 2005, 01:49 PM)
I posted in previous page, it's next gen console's grapihc.

2 Days to Vegas (xbox 360) from IGN.
*
Private John... those pic ... were PC one..
look at the URL = http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article/60...28111815807.jpg
PrivateJohn
post May 1 2005, 09:59 PM

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It's next generation grahpic...so it appear on all url.
http://xbox360.ign.com/objects/744/744413.html

Like Splinter Cell & Brotherhood in arms...all the games screenshot are taken from xbox and show in most of the advertisement eventhough it's crossplatform.

This post has been edited by PrivateJohn: May 1 2005, 10:55 PM
PrivateJohn
post May 3 2005, 07:03 AM

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The Engadget Interview: Bill Gates, Pt. 1

QUOTE
Have you had a chance to play with the PlayStation portable?

Actually yeah. Because we both work with Sony and compete with Sony, Kutaragi and Idei were here some months ago, and they sent me one even before it was in the marketplace. We're not in that segment of the business. I don't know if he would have done the same with the PS3, but so he sent a PSP and that was very nice.

Thanks for taking the time to meet with me today. First off I wanted to ask you about the next Xbox console, which is arguably going to be the biggest Microsoft launch of the year. Why launch the console on MTV as opposed to E3? Do you risk alienating the original Xbox's audience of hardcore gamers by going mass market from day one?

I'm going to call it Xenon, that's the codename for the thing; Xenon is good enough that we'll have no problem. Hardcore gamers are going to love Xenon because of the applications that are on Xenon. And it's not just the technical specs. It's the partnership we have with the game creators and we're going to have this next generation machine out so that it's going to be timed with high definition becoming very mainstream.


We've learned a lot from Xbox 1. In Xbox 1 we let ourselves sort of be second in and to not have the momentum. We had to learn a lot about building the partnerships. We're new to the industry so people naturally didn't know if we were hardcore committed to the thing. We've really gotten over that now and so it's been a lot easier this time around, but we want to broaden video gaming, and without giving up any of the hardcore players we want more women, older people [to be playing games]. We're going to have games that are more sociable, more approachable, particularly by taking this idea of Xbox Live and bringing in contests and spectators and ratings and talking to your friends and various new things there we think we can make it much bigger category than it's ever been to date. That is important for us.
This post has been edited by PrivateJohn: May 3 2005, 07:12 AM
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post May 4 2005, 04:07 PM

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QUOTE(PrivateJohn @ May 1 2005, 09:59 PM)
It's next generation grahpic...so it appear on all url.
http://xbox360.ign.com/objects/744/744413.html

Like Splinter Cell & Brotherhood in arms...all the games screenshot are taken from xbox and show in most of the advertisement eventhough it's crossplatform.
*
Apparently its PC only according to this...
eone
post May 4 2005, 04:42 PM

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user posted image

looks small... and wired thumbup.gif

This post has been edited by eone: May 4 2005, 04:43 PM
wai57
post May 4 2005, 04:56 PM

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2 days to vegas WOW
look at those car rim
gmos
post May 4 2005, 04:58 PM

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wow!thats ngam enuf for us asian guyz...
but where is those black&white button?they eliminate em?
eone
post May 4 2005, 05:14 PM

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black n white as shoulder buttons now
paanjang16
post May 8 2005, 12:06 AM

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Just to let you guys know, I think Xbox 360 is CONFIRMED.

I went to the Gamespot site and noticed that they have build an entire section specially for the Xbox 360. With list of games, trailer videos....a fully build up section of the site to say the least. Tomb Raider legend will be on the new xbox

http://www.gamespot.com/x360/index.html

Edit: now there is a PS3 section lol. I think these consoles will come, but how, when and how will it look like is still anyone guess

I think soon there will be a Nintendo Revolution section.... .

This post has been edited by paanjang16: May 8 2005, 12:34 AM
fariz
post May 8 2005, 08:00 AM

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Xbox360 or whatever they call it biggrin.gif

QUOTE
Can't tell you how we got our hands on this image, but what you're looking at is a real live shot of the Xbox 360 that someone sneakily snapped with their cameraphone at Microsoft's Xbox360 Revealed launch party in Los Angeles last night. Also note the presence of a hard drive attachment up top, the white controller, the Xbox Live headset, and what looks like that EyeToy-like camera peripheral we've been hearing about.

http://engadget.com/entry/1234000490042605/

user posted image

edit: I merged it here..

This post has been edited by acedriver: May 8 2005, 08:04 AM
PrivateJohn
post May 8 2005, 08:08 AM

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Hmm...it looks kinda "futuristic"...and that eye toy is cool.....the design i mean. Controller...Hmm a touch up version of the previous leaked picture. Looks like this gona be the final version! The controller middle there..looks like there is really a button to boot up to xbox dashboard!

What i think : no more xbox feel. Hope they release a black colour version with green lights.
fariz
post May 8 2005, 08:16 AM

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It doesn't look that bad to me. We all know Microsoft is trying to get as many homes as possible into the media center market, so it's fitting it looks like the way it does.

The controller in the picture looks too "prototype"-ish. It looks like some cheap plastic thing with over-the-top smoothness (which is a no-no for gamers).

Most likely it will come in different colors or a 3rd party will release colored case. Like you said John, black with green lights would be awesome.
fariz
post May 8 2005, 08:22 AM

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closeup on controller

user posted image

remote

user posted image

source: engadget.com
PrivateJohn
post May 8 2005, 08:23 AM

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From the same site..more pic!

user posted image
Close up shot of the Xbox 360's controller
QUOTE
The leaked Xbox 360 pics keep on coming this afternoon. The latest is a close up shot of the new console's controller that gives us a good look at that little silvery thing in the middle, which besides sporting the Xbox 360's logo, is also supposed to be some new kind of button or something or other (if we knew exactly what it was we'd tell you).


user posted image
Xbox 360 Windows Media Center Remote Control
QUOTE
Microsoft must have been dreaming if they thought they could hold a launch party for the Xbox 360 last night and somehow stop us from getting our hands on photos of every last piece of hardware that was there. We already scored a live shot of the console, along with its controller, now courtesy of another attendee we now know what the Xbox 360's DVD player/Media Center remote control is going to look like.


Hmm...the next news after xbox360 is about....this, ya know if we didn't read we might get mislead...thinking of some microsoft product bundle with the xbox 360.
user posted image
Telco-powered vibrator

Edited : oops..you posted it.

Edited 2 :
QUOTE
Dave J UK
"NewsFlash" Check out :http://cgi.rbentley.plus.com/1/360.mp3
People HAVE played Perfect Dark Zero!!! Over 22 weapons and stuff! Xbox 360 WILL have a DVD burner and TIVO like functions! Check it out!

From some forumer.

From the mp3, i heard that in some game you could scan a picture of yourself...then convert into a game model of yourself! Anyway the voice is "ouch", they "robotize" it so nobody could recognise them. The guest aren't really gamer i guess, listening to their speech. When ask about the graphic, she is like "is halo consider cartoonish? The grahpic erm...realistic but maybe not as detail as halo but like counter strike bla bla. Does she knows what she is talking abt?

Edited : Linkin Park mr hahn etc gona be there!! Ok, call me crazy but that's one of the reason i gona love xbox360. In the mp3 ppl commented that mr hahn sniping skill are cool...if i didn't hear wrongly.

This post has been edited by PrivateJohn: May 8 2005, 08:46 AM
melman
post May 8 2005, 07:42 PM

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i'd rather they call it Xbox 3:16. just like stone cold steve austin.

j/k.
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post May 8 2005, 08:33 PM

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Here's some leaked info on the Revolution... Its gonna have a pressure sensitive "gamepad" and also FREE online gamplay.
XenoFr3ak
post May 9 2005, 07:34 PM

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OMG ... i just started playing my Xbox console and MS announce that Xbox 260 will be out soon. Nooo .. why now but nvmind, still have to save money to get it. Saw the graphics ... really photo quality graphics. Anyone knows when it will be out ??.
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post May 10 2005, 12:31 PM

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Behold... The specs for the 360 have been leaked

Here they are:
First, the Live system:
Xbox Live, 2 types:

Xbox Live Silver (no subscription required)
Xbox Live Gold (subscription benefits)

Features for Gold service
* Also for Silver
# Also for Offline

- Seamless transition to Xbox Live account from Xbox to Xbox 360
- Access to MMOs (additional fees may apply) *
- Free Xbox Live weekends *
- Multiplayer online gameplay
- Avatar for gamer profile * #
- Motto for gamer profile * #
- Personalized look for Xbox System Guide * #
- Offline achievments * #
- Online achievements *
- Access to other players' Gamer cards via Live *
- Cumulative gamer score * #
- Location/language profile * #
- Reputation *
- Enahnced matchmaking using above
- Skill level matchmaking
- Gameplay style profile (casual, competitive, etc.)
- Recent players list *
- Free and premium download game content *
- Free and premium downloadable movies, music, tv *
- Downloadable demos/trailers *
- Microtransactions *
- Custom playlist in every game * #
- Play music from portable devices * #
- View images from digital camera * #
- Strem media from Windows XP * #
- Interactive screen savers * #
- Track info for CDs * #
- Communication with voice, video or text *

Second, the specs of the hardware:
1. Support for DVD-video, DVD-Rom, DVD-R/RW, CD-DA, CD-Rom, CD-R, CD-RW, WMA CD, MP3 cd, JPEG photo CD
2. All games supported at 16:9, 720p and 1080i, anti-aliasing
3. Customizable face plates to change appearance
4. 3 USB 2.0 ports
5. Support for 4 wireless controllers
6. Detachable 20GB drive
7. Wi-Fi ready

Custom IBM PowerPC-based CPU
- 3 symmetrical cores at 3.2 GHz each
- 2 hardware threads per core
- 1 VMX-128 vector unit per core
- 1 MB L2 cache

Custom ATI Graphics Processor
- 500 MNz
- 10 MB embedded DRAM
- 48-way parallel floating-point shader pipelines
- unified shader architecture

Memory
-512 MB GDDR3 RAM
- 700 MNz DDR

Memory Bandwidth
- 22.4 GB/s memory interface bus bandwidth
- 256 GB/s memory bandwidth to EDRAM
- 21.6 GB/s frontside bus

Audio
- Mulitchannel surround sond output
- Supports 48khz 16-bit audio
- 320 independent decompression channels
- 32 bit processing
- 256+ audio channels
SUSMatrix
post May 10 2005, 02:28 PM

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QUOTE
Xbox Live Silver (no subscription required)
WOOO.....FOC??
but....

QUOTE
Free Xbox Live weekends *
- Multiplayer online gameplay
Silver members with no subscription can only play on weekend?? Or totally no multiplayer option at all for silver members? Than the "no subscription" thing is but a gimmick to have access to lots of useless feature...


PrivateJohn
post May 10 2005, 02:36 PM

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Well it's good for those busy ppl especially working individual who can only play during weekend so no point subscribing for gold service which is a waste of money.
eone
post May 10 2005, 07:31 PM

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3 symmetrical cores at 3.2 GHz each!!!!

is that for real??
PrivateJohn
post May 11 2005, 09:41 AM

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Toshiba Unveils 45GB HD DVD-ROM Disc

QUOTE
Technical features

1) Triple-layer 45GB disc

The newly developed ROM disc has a single-sided, triple-layer structure (see attachment). Each layer stores 15 gigabytes of information. Triple-layer discs can be easily produced by back-to-back bonding of a 0.6mm-thick dual-layer disc and a single-layer 0.6mm disc.

In the process, a single-layer disc is first produced, using the same process as for HD DVD-ROM. Next, the second layer is formed on first layer using a one-time polycarbonate stamper, the same process used for the DVD-18 disc, the double-sided DVD disc that has dual-layers on both sides. Finally, the single-layer 0.6mm disc is bonded to the dual-layer disc, using standard technology.

2) Double-sided, Dual-layer Hybrid Disc

In December 2004, Toshiba and Memory-Tech announced development of a single-sided, dual-layer HD DVD-ROM/DVD-ROM hybrid disc. The DVD layer had a 4.7GB capacity, meeting the specification for current DVD discs, while the HD DVD layer had a 15GB capacity.

Now Toshiba has developed a double-sided, dual-layer HD DVD-ROM/DVD-ROM hybrid disc. Simply explained, the new hybrid disc bonds together a 0.6mm thick dual-layer HD DVD-ROM disc with 30GB capacity, and a 0.6-mm thick dual-layer DVD-ROM disc with an 8.5GB capacity (see attachment).

The dual-layer DVD-ROM disc structure is well established. The new disc has a structure as simple as that of current dual-layer DVD-ROM discs. Today, more than fifty percent of DVD-ROM discs on the market are dual-layer versions.

The new disc brings the clear benefit of satisfying consumers, retailers, disc producers and Hollywood studios. It allows consumers to view DVD content on standard DVD players and, after purchasing an HD DVD player, to enjoy high definition content on the HD DVD layer from the same disc. The new disc structure also increases options for content providers: they can provide the same content in two formats, or use the HD DVD layer for a feature movie and the DVD layer to store promotional videos or audio content, including the movie sound track. Retailers can also promote HD DVD hardware as well as maintaining standard DVD sales.
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fariz
post May 11 2005, 09:52 AM

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QUOTE(PrivateJohn @ May 11 2005, 09:41 AM)
still low compared to Blu-Ray

Single-Layer HD-DVD Disc - 15GB
Dual-Layer HD-DVD Disc - 30GB
Triple-Layer HD-DVD Disc - 45GB

Single-Layer Blu-ray Disc - 27GB
Dual-Layer Blu-ray Disc - 54GB
cocklea
post May 11 2005, 10:30 AM

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aik, tak jadi combine ah the BluRay and HDDVD? I think that MS did a smart move by not changing the standards for the 360. The DVD format is still relatively new, dunno why they all so rushed to introduce new standards oredy.
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post May 11 2005, 01:04 PM

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QUOTE(cocklea @ May 11 2005, 10:30 AM)
aik, tak jadi combine ah the BluRay and HDDVD? I think that MS did a smart move by not changing the standards for the 360. The DVD format is still relatively new, dunno why they all so rushed to introduce new standards oredy.
*
no compromise yet..
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000207042841
http://gear.ign.com/articles/611/611515p1.html

HD gaming needs alot of space.. also PS3 would be a good place for Sony to introduce Blu-Ray to mass market..
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post May 11 2005, 01:18 PM

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...but isn't blueray an overkill? With current gen console game developer only use about 6 gb max and not all games are so. 45gb hd dvd is like almost 8 times larger, will the game developer even utilize all of it?
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QUOTE(PrivateJohn @ May 11 2005, 01:18 PM)
...but isn't blueray an overkill? With current gen console game developer only use about 6 gb max and not all games are so. 45gb hd dvd is like almost 8 times larger, will the game developer even utilize all of it?
*
true true... last time when throwing in long hours DVD quality FMV is a trend.. high capacity media is much needed.. but right now i feel they can juz use in game cutscene.. so can save space on the DVD too..
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QUOTE(H@H@ @ May 8 2005, 08:33 PM)
Here's some leaked info on the Revolution... Its gonna have a pressure sensitive "gamepad" and also FREE online gamplay.
*
It's also rumored that Nintendo Revolution has a gamepad that act as a gyroscope.
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post May 12 2005, 09:50 AM

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Nintendo's Revolution to emerge in mid-2006, says key supplier

QUOTE
According to the site, the console will boast four 2.5Ghz IBM G5 Custom cores, with 128KB of level 1 cache and a 512KB shared level 2 cache, while the graphics will be powered by a dual core ATI RN520 chipset, with 16MB of on-board eDRAM for the frame buffer.


Square Enix Talks Revolution
Could Nintendo's next console see support from the maker of Final Fantasy?

Xboy Not Planned
QUOTE
The increased competition between Sony and Nintendo over the handheld market has continued to fuel rumors Microsoft would eventually join the fray. Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates says doesn't see that in the company's future, according to an interview with CNET News.com.
"Speaking from Microsoft broadly, we like that Sony is off worrying about the PSP and thinking about that while we are worried about the TV-based console, the next generation of Xbox that we are moving forward on," he said.

Then again, Sony probably didn't anticipate entering the portable gaming market right away, either.
This post has been edited by PrivateJohn: May 12 2005, 10:22 AM
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post May 14 2005, 02:16 PM

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Nintendo Reveals Early Details About Revolution

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In its final form, Revolution will be about the thickness of three standard DVD cases and only slightly longer. The versatile Revolution will play either horizontally or vertically, allowing the user total flexibility in setting up a gaming session wherever they have a television.


QUOTE
Thanks to Nintendo's hardware development partners IBM and ATI, the small system will be packed with power that will enable it to wow players with its graphics. Nintendo's legions of loyal fans will be happy to learn that Revolution will be backward compatible, playing both Nintendo GameCube 8cm disks along with its own 12cm optical disks in the same self-loading media drive.
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post May 15 2005, 12:02 AM

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i also heard that revo is using double layer svs....that means easier for pirates..rite?...and wat bout xbox360...surely it will be hacked since thay are still using dvd format....
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PS3 Ads
The symbols represents one half of your controller buttons. biggrin.gif
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post May 15 2005, 03:39 AM

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cool... i got a feeling that ps3 has something "different" for us gamers...
anyway here on the playstation2 where they introduce both vertical and horizontal standing for the console and eye-toy stuff, amazing.. and this kindda seems like a trend for the xbx360/Revolution to follow..
can't wait.. for the "CHANG3"......
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post May 15 2005, 03:54 AM

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Ps3 ad pack more punch because the microsoft leak news like hell. Especially watching the mtv unveil that time, i already know how it's goan like when the girl bring the xb360 in her bag....damn anti climax.
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post May 15 2005, 10:02 AM

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http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/5771/

QUOTE
RUMOR: Sony and Apple working together on PlayStation 3

Friday, May 13, 2005 - 09:22 PM EST

The moderator of PS3 Forums, "The Unofficial PS3 H.Q." has posted the following:

Apple + Sony = PS3

I am now hearing stronger rumors that Sony is indeed working with Apple on the PS3. Most of this work is based around support for iTunes and iPop on the PS3.

iPod connectivity - Ability to connect the iPod to the PS3 and play it's music through the PS3 to your stereo or other audio playback devices. Will also provide some graphical effects on your TV during playback

iTunes linkup - Access iTunes and your music through the PS3. Purchase and download additiona tracks through the PS3. Wirelessly play iTunes music from your PC/Mac through the PS3

Sync support - Use the PS3 to sync your iPod with iTunes, no need for a PC or Mac to sync and add/remove tracks and organize playlists.

Apple may also be helping Sony with some UI design for the PS3 dashboard interface. No links, and for that I appologize, but I figured people would like to hear this information anyways. If the rumors hold true, this would be mutually benefitical for Sony and Apple in a lot of ways.

Full post and forum discussion here.

And, over at Engadget, Joshua Fruhlinger is reporting that, "Merrill Lynch analyst Steven Milunovich thinks Apple and Sony could be working on some big things." Full article here.

Steve Jobs at MacWorld Expo 2005, Tuesday, January 11, 2005, "You know, we do work very closely with Sony on digital still cameras and these new camcorders, which is really great. And who knows, maybe someday, computers and music, too." QuickTime video of Steve Jobs' comment at 57:38.

MacDailyNews Take: This is a rumor. Take it with a grain of salt. It would be very interesting, though, wouldn't it?

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post May 15 2005, 10:16 AM

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wa,now the top 2 competitor of MS is teaming together to fight MS,gonna be interesting
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post May 15 2005, 01:19 PM

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ark!? Apple designing PS3 dash??? I LIKE!! I loveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Apple's designs. Damn now freaking excited about the PS3 oredy. I hope the rumor is true!!

Oh and i hope the PS3 uses new pad. If they announce Dual Shock 3 with same design, i think bosan oredy.
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post May 15 2005, 01:28 PM

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the dual shock is good wat,dont fix what aint broke
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post May 15 2005, 01:31 PM

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i know, the DS is indeed a really awesome controller, but dun u think they should upgrade it for the the 3rd time? I wouldve love to see the DS wireless if they intend to use the original DS back.
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post May 15 2005, 01:33 PM

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Revolution are rumoured to be damn thin...so what you guys think about ps3?
If apple design UI for sony ps3, expect some real cool shit from them....apple are good at that, no doubt about it.
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post May 15 2005, 01:42 PM

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should be as thin or alittle bit fatter then the slim ps2
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post May 15 2005, 02:44 PM

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QUOTE(ccb @ May 15 2005, 10:16 AM)
wa,now the top 2 competitor of  MS is teaming together to fight MS,gonna be interesting
*
HEHE.. SONY must counter MS's media center thingy... now with apple!
i also hoping they design the console look itsef.. coz ps2 is fugly!
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Wow, if Apple is really teaming up with Sony then ps3 design will be really cool. Imagine PS3 with media center.
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post May 15 2005, 05:08 PM

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post May 15 2005, 05:21 PM

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i got this xbox-tribe regarding the Revolution:

Perrin Kaplin, Nintendo of America's VP for corporate affairs, went on record with the following tidbits about the Revolution - that will be released sometime next year:

-Wireless controllers
-Backwards compatibility (with the GameCube)
-Internet will be important
-WiFi ready out of the box
-Sleek design that will stand on its side (she said the size would be the same as 3 DVD cases sitting on top of each other)
-DVD format discs (and it will play DVD movies)

well well well, look whos joining the DVD community. I guess if we cant beat em', join em' eh tongue.gif

This post has been edited by cocklea: May 15 2005, 05:25 PM
ccb
post May 15 2005, 06:07 PM

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nintendo dont have the financial capability to use a new format ma
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post May 15 2005, 06:09 PM

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That 4 symbol is the ps2 controller square triangle circle and cross eh. I wonder what's the "chang3"....
This e3 gona be so awesome...so many new stuff.
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post May 15 2005, 06:13 PM

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with all the symbols being cut half. i think the size of the PS3 might be cut down to half the ori size of ps2 or ps1 tongue.gif
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post May 15 2005, 06:24 PM

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hmm,maybe now the PS3 controler will have 3 roller to replace the normal 4 button
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post May 15 2005, 07:05 PM

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QUOTE(ccb @ May 15 2005, 06:07 PM)
nintendo dont have the financial capability to use a new format ma
*
cannot be liao, but seeing the competitor using the normal format, they may have felt left out i think. So now "maybe" Revolution is using DVD, 360 confirm DVD, do u think Sony will still use Blu-Ray for the PS3?
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they invest so much money liao,now backout ar?later share price will fall,think about it lose a few million or lose 100 million in share?
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post May 15 2005, 08:49 PM

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i want ps3 to use blueray.. it would be really COOL..
no more DVD player plz.. my house has overstock of DVD players (xbox + ps2 + laptops + desktops + normal dvd players)

This post has been edited by prazole: May 15 2005, 08:52 PM
Furious Han
post May 15 2005, 08:59 PM

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QUOTE(prazole @ May 15 2005, 08:49 PM)
i want ps3 to use blueray.. it would be really COOL..
no more DVD player plz.. my house has overstock of DVD players  (xbox + ps2 + laptops + desktops + normal dvd players)
*
COOL? maybe... practical? i dunno...

one thing for sure, definitely wont be cheap... & lets not even mention the 'local' market, hehehe tongue.gif
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post May 15 2005, 09:07 PM

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Whatever it is i just hope there is one standard...like i can play my movie on my console and pc, or some player. I don't want like use this medium for console A, then pc different etc.
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post May 15 2005, 09:19 PM

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QUOTE(PrivateJohn @ May 15 2005, 01:33 PM)
Revolution are rumoured to be damn thin...so what you guys think about ps3?
If apple design UI for sony ps3, expect some real cool shit from them....apple are good at that, no doubt about it.
*
it'll be like the IPOD? u just have to tap the buttons to activate the machine, evrything is touch sensitive. drool.gif AND the ps3 insignia glows much like the apple laptops. whistling.gif
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post May 15 2005, 09:22 PM

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But if Apple is gonna do the design for PS3..then it will be so white and aqua themed..I prefer the classy design Sony uses for their products tho. Or maybe the aqua design is the chang3..

Edit: Talking bout the change, I think the change will be the controller, now most controllers have the same basic structure, I think(and hope) they gonna change that.

This post has been edited by Fields: May 15 2005, 09:23 PM
ccb
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yeah,then can easily knoe where is ur PS3 in dark or make the whole console glow in the dark
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post May 16 2005, 12:42 AM

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QUOTE(ccb @ May 15 2005, 09:25 PM)
yeah,then can easily knoe where is ur PS3 in dark or make the whole console glow in the dark
*
HAHA.. dont want ler.. ugly ler..
one thing.. im so happy cuz this time all console emphasizes on their look
unlike last gen... all big bulky n ugly.. except the GC of coz..
so no more sony milking money from their fans for releasing some smaller version.. (*cough*psone*cough*ps2slime*cough*)
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post May 16 2005, 12:53 AM

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If ya don't have the look you can't get mainstream consumer.
Imagine ipod look fugly and bulky....
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post May 16 2005, 01:33 AM

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QUOTE(PrivateJohn @ May 16 2005, 12:53 AM)
If ya don't have the look you can't get mainstream consumer.
Imagine ipod look fugly and bulky....
*
yes xbox seems to target the non-gamers too..
grr.. look at the mtv thingy.. so anti-climax for gamers...
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post May 16 2005, 05:15 AM

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Since Xbox360 is using IBM PowerPC processor, I wonder if we can install Mac OS or Linux PPC on it.
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post May 16 2005, 08:46 AM

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QUOTE(Furious Han @ May 15 2005, 08:59 PM)
COOL? maybe... practical? i dunno...

one thing for sure, definitely wont be cheap... & lets not even mention the 'local' market, hehehe tongue.gif
*
No Blue-Ray=Happy days for local gamers.

Think about all the cost and the availability of "local editions"!

There's no purpose having 50GB on a disc anyway. Only a few titles uses > 1 DVD currently and some can come in DVD-9 which is more than enough. With less usage of FMV due to power of the new hardware, there is even less need for more room.
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post May 16 2005, 02:09 PM

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Los Angeles awash with PS3 promos as Sony conference looms
QUOTE
There's also the suggestion that it could launch as soon as this Christmas. Sony's CFO Takao Yuhara was quoted late last week saying that "For the year end sales season, simultaneously building up both the [PSP] as well as the next generation PlayStation is one option that we have."


QUOTE
The Japanese company is widely expected to lead its press conference with an unveiling of the PlayStation 3 and the gossip on the ground here is that it could be touted as much more powerful than Microsoft's rival Xbox 360, which was unveiled on Thursday night.

Sony is also expected to discuss exclusive software deals aimed at derailing the excitement over the Microsoft console.
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post May 16 2005, 08:16 PM

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PlayStation 3: The industry's best-kept secret?
Sony's next-gen console remains an enigma with just hours to go

QUOTE
Although early reports suggested that PS3 would use four or even eight Cell CPUs, many developers now believe that the system may only have one - but rumours from those working on early development kits, which shipped to some of Sony's closest partners earlier this year, suggest that the system will still match or even outperform the multi-processor design being used by Microsoft for Xbox 360.


QUOTE
Other rumours about the hardware strongly point to the existence of two different models, one a standard console system, and the other a high-end "media server" in the mould of the somewhat ill-fated PSX.


QUOTE
Expect to see the first reports from Sony's conference appearing at around 11pm BST tonight.
That's what time over here after conversion?
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post May 16 2005, 08:20 PM

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GMT +1 so we are 7 hour ahead
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post May 16 2005, 10:41 PM

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hello,can I know when PS3 out ?
How much wift it ?
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post May 16 2005, 10:42 PM

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well bad luck for you
1) we dunno maybe this year
2)dunno
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post May 17 2005, 02:00 AM

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Design Technica's Guide To Xbox360
SUSMatrix
post May 17 2005, 09:16 AM

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QUOTE(PrivateJohn @ May 16 2005, 08:16 PM)
PlayStation 3: The industry's best-kept secret?
Sony's next-gen console remains an enigma with just hours to go
That's what time over here after conversion?
*
Yep, looks like only 1 CELL processor in PS3..to have more CELL processors..i guess you hafta buy...more PS3?? Since Ken Kutagari has been championing that the CELL can draw processing power from another across the network...ha-ha.

But regardless, i firmly believe this generation of consoles will be the most similar in terms of performance and image quality output.
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post May 17 2005, 09:21 AM

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yet, exclusive games develop for ps3 will be much better coz of raw processing power, ps3 theoriticaly at least 2 times powerful then x360
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post May 17 2005, 09:23 AM

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QUOTE(eone @ May 17 2005, 09:21 AM)
yet, exclusive games develop for ps3 will be much better coz of raw processing power, ps3 theoriticaly at least 2 times powerful then x360
*
looks like it's the other way around now. the original xbox was more powerful than the ps2, and now it's the ps3's turn to pwn the xbox360 in terms of processing power. tongue.gif

no more will we read in reviews of how visual quality is better in the xbox version of the game (happening quite often now).

This post has been edited by jhcj: May 17 2005, 09:23 AM
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post May 17 2005, 09:35 AM

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....and ps3 turn to be bulkiness...and a ninja weapon as controller.
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post May 17 2005, 11:14 AM

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QUOTE(PrivateJohn @ May 17 2005, 09:35 AM)
....and ps3 turn to be bulkiness...and a ninja weapon as controller.
*
bulky? Looking at the photos at the PS3 thread, we can roughly judge the dimensions of the console:
width is roughly twice of the DVD/CD/BD slot. To fit a 12cm diameter disc, the slot is usually wider, let's say about 13cm. So PS3 width ~ 2 x 13cm = 26cm.

height/thickess is roughly three and a half times of the IEC power connector. The power connector is roughly 2cm high. So PS3 thickness is approximately 3.5 x 2cm = 7cm. Give or take 1cm if I'm cock-eyed.

depth is about 1.5 the diameter of a DVD, so about 18cm.

somebody should shoot the designer of that awful controller though... at least I hope third parties like logitech will adopt a more DS-like shape.
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QUOTE(silkworm @ May 17 2005, 11:14 AM)
bulky? Looking at the photos at the PS3 thread, we can roughly judge the dimensions of the console:
width is roughly twice of the DVD/CD/BD slot. To fit a 12cm diameter disc, the slot is usually wider, let's say about 13cm. So PS3 width ~ 2 x 13cm = 26cm.

height/thickess is roughly three and a half times of the IEC power connector. The power connector is roughly 2cm high. So PS3 thickness is approximately 3.5 x 2cm = 7cm. Give or take 1cm if I'm cock-eyed.

depth is about 1.5 the diameter of a DVD, so about 18cm.

somebody should shoot the designer of that awful controller though... at least I hope third parties like logitech will adopt a more DS-like shape.
*
I think he meant that it just looked larger than the 360... and thus equated that it has to be heavier as well.

And yes, the "Boomepad" (or Controllerang... both are bad puns) looks like it might actually fly back to you when you try to get rid of it... Ingenius dual "use" by Sony? laugh.gif
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post May 17 2005, 11:26 AM

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QUOTE(H@H@ @ May 17 2005, 11:20 AM)
I think he meant that it just looked larger than the 360... and thus equated that it has to be heavier as well.
*
Ya..partially correct. I meant the design look bulky but not heavy though.
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post May 17 2005, 11:38 AM

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Size comparison.

So please stop with that rambling about PS3 being bulky.
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Thanks for clearing the air string... I can only judge the size of something if someone's carrying it... Don't ask why... I just do.

Anyway, I'm kinda curious as to how the games will be priced. According to Sony in an earlier press statement, the new games cost USD 60... not sure about Xbox 360 titles though.

Either way, that means titles sold here would probably cost close to RM 300+ seeing as they jack up the prices.

I'm hoping against hope that they stop that with the next-gen.
gmos
post May 17 2005, 05:38 PM

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wait..wait..
but saw at ign.com bout 360vsps3 spec..ps3 Dimensions=13.5" x 3.25"..
Xbox 360=10.25" x 2.5"
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/614/614783p1.html

so which one is true?
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post May 17 2005, 05:58 PM

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Shacknews has some bulleted info on both these consoles (as well as comparisons to present day hardware). You can get it here
eone
post May 17 2005, 06:35 PM

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QUOTE(gmos @ May 17 2005, 05:38 PM)
wait..wait..
but saw at ign.com bout 360vsps3 spec..ps3 Dimensions=13.5" x 3.25"..
Xbox 360=10.25" x 2.5" 
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/614/614783p1.html

so which one is true?
*
it does looks bigger when ken holding ps3 in his hand
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post May 17 2005, 11:12 PM

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excuse me,
how much the PS 3 ?
when it out ?
ccb
post May 17 2005, 11:18 PM

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1)dunno
2)spring 2006
TomatomanzSeedlezz
post May 18 2005, 05:04 AM

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Heres the comparision of the consoles sizes... which i edited the pics to compare... coz i was wondering how big are those consoles compared to my PStwo cool.gif

user posted image
fariz
post May 18 2005, 07:39 AM

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since all 3 have been revealed, this thread is unpinned..
gmos
post May 18 2005, 08:37 AM

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if refer to that dimensions giving by ign,shouldnt it be like this:

user posted image

comparison spec on IGN:
user posted image

This post has been edited by gmos: May 18 2005, 09:50 AM
eone
post May 18 2005, 12:01 PM

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wait a sec, whats the diffrences between cores and SPEs?? from the ps3 spec only mention SPEs? does this means its only got 1 core?

btw, from what i read, 1 core on xbox is multithreaded at least 2...

.. hmmm
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post May 18 2005, 12:32 PM

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yes.. ps3 will be bigger than 360 according to IGN. The power chord socket must be in different shape. Comparison cannot be made with that only.
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post May 18 2005, 03:38 PM

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QUOTE(eone @ May 18 2005, 12:01 PM)
wait a sec, whats the diffrences between cores and SPEs?? from the ps3 spec only mention SPEs? does this means its only got 1 core?

btw, from what i read, 1 core on xbox is multithreaded at least 2...

.. hmmm
*
xbox 360 has 1 cpu with 3 multi thread cores(i think) but I read abit and the cell chip has 7 something...i forgot the name and 1 of that thing reserved for redundency. So, based on what I read without understanding, the PS3 is more powerfull than the xbox 360...(like duh) laugh.gif
eone
post May 18 2005, 11:51 PM

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interesting.... nvidia on ps3 produce 1.8TFlops??, cell only 200 to 250 GFlops?? while 3 cores ibm on xbox oredy got 1TFlops?? .... i tot 360 only 115GFlops

QUOTE
Hmm, Sony up to the same old BS as usual. As to my knowledge, the xbox 360 has a four fold advantage over the PS3 in regard to raw processing power. The Sony unit (CELL) has a tested output of somewhere in the area of 200-250Gflop. Now architectural differences aside (We'll get to that later), the tri-coreIBM PowerPC processor in the 360 can perform well over a Tflop (emphasis on "well over"). Some claim it to run closer in the range of about 1.2Tflop (Unconfirmed). I saw the whole presentation for the PS3, and I felt that deja vu all over again. Sony claims that it's graphics core adds on an additional 1.8Tflop of processing power for a total of 2Tflop. ??? ... ??? ... ??? . WOW! And I thought with the release of the PSP that Sony was finally ready to step up to the big boys' table... I was wrong. The absurdity of their claims can't even be measured, as a graphics core has nothing to do with the systems CPU. To put it simply, SCEI is lying, again. And simply is trying to their way out of another technology spoof (and miserably failing). Cell is no where close to the power of microsoft's processing solution, and just as last time when they claimed that their "emotional engine" was on top, it ended up about 1/10 as fast as the marketed number. This isn't to say that the PS3 is inferior to the XBOX 360, only that we have seen this before and obviously microsoft came out on top. As far as developing goes and coding, this system looks even more rediculous than the emotion CPU. Many argue that the PS2 was more powerful than the xbox when people learned how to use it, but to be honest no one (except maybe bungie) ever dug that deep into the XBOX's power. My guess from the lineup of 3rd parties this time around (a vast majority of Sony's staples hoping on the XBOX360 bandwagon) that sony has finally run out of marketing tactics to appease the consumers, and with development costs skyrocketing, I think developers will put more consideration into what system they decide to base their games. But this is really just fuzz right now. Most consumers are terribly educated and will usually just listen to whatever the cool crowd says. Last gen, Sony had overwhelming support from pop culture, which made playstation into the cliche that took out nintendo. I think already with microsoft's MTV marketing campaign and sleek design (not to mention billions of dollars) that they will push sony out of the market. But this all remains to be seen. One thing is for damn sure. CELL is no where near as powerful as the 360CPU. It's almost unethical to compare them.


This post has been edited by eone: May 18 2005, 11:52 PM
PrivateJohn
post May 18 2005, 11:54 PM

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Any link for that? Wondering what's the credibility.
eone
post May 19 2005, 12:01 AM

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just some stupid x360 fans in anandtech forums, rechecked, confirm x360 iz 115GFlops only..

well... if the overall system produce 1TFlops only, this means Ati lose to nvidia ^^
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err,credibility is none
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post May 19 2005, 12:33 AM

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From /. the "ps3 produces 1 TFlops theory" is pretty much bunk. Yes, it can do that, but only if you disable all other functions and have the entire processing speed dedicated to nothing but the benchmark.
Ie, you benchmark your computer by running nothing but benchmark utility... no directX, no background programs AND most importantly, NO OS (like windows).
All the discussion about Gigaflops are just marketing smokescreen. The PS3 has more power, but is irrelevant until the developers figure out how to get the juice from the processor "array". We'll only see real comparison around February, when the PS3 SDK has been out for long enough and there are enough 360 games out to compare with what is coming.
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post May 19 2005, 01:30 AM

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QUOTE(snowcrash @ May 19 2005, 12:33 AM)
From /. the "ps3 produces 1 TFlops theory" is pretty much bunk. Yes, it can do that, but only if you disable all other functions and have the entire processing speed dedicated to nothing but the benchmark.
Ie, you benchmark your computer by running nothing but benchmark utility... no directX, no background programs AND most importantly, NO OS (like windows).
All the discussion about Gigaflops are just marketing smokescreen. The PS3 has more power, but is irrelevant until the developers figure out how to get the juice from the processor "array". We'll only see real comparison around February, when the PS3 SDK has been out for long enough and there are enough 360 games out to compare with what is coming.
*
Previous Sony titles does squeeze the juice out of the ps2.. so no question about that..
Epic was given 2 months and they already got their Unreal3 engine running as seen in e3.. smile.gif
and ps3 is said to produce 2 Tflop theoritically smile.gif... i will say its good news more than bad news..
Hanford
post May 19 2005, 02:46 PM

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ty
spring 2006......in malaysia ???
daedalusaf
post May 19 2005, 02:49 PM

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QUOTE(Hanford @ May 19 2005, 02:46 PM)
ty
spring 2006......in malaysia  ???
*
god knows when...hopefully by the end of 2006...
Hanford
post May 19 2005, 11:09 PM

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I hoped so......
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post May 20 2005, 12:42 AM

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Since tat cant compare using the backside... y not trying the front... compare between blu-ray rom n dvd-rom... PS3 is smaller... unless Blu-ray media is much more bigger size then dvd...

Nintendo Revo confirmed using DVD...


Then PS3 1 is 1 lousy joke... like PS2... since tat they can change the spec n design witout prior notice... v cant say anythg abt it... dry.gif
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QUOTE(James_yka @ May 20 2005, 12:42 AM)
Then PS3 1 is 1 lousy joke... like PS2... since tat they can change the spec n design witout prior notice... v cant say anythg abt it... dry.gif
*
If only i can understand what you are trying to say here.......let me put my sorting hat on my head and maybe i could dig up some Singlish dictionary so that i can decipher some of this.....

This post has been edited by stringfellow: May 20 2005, 02:31 AM
PrivateJohn
post May 20 2005, 04:12 AM

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Sony's Phil Harrison on PlayStation 3

QUOTE
Everyone expected PlayStation 3 to be quite impressive, but many people were shocked at just how much of a leap ahead of current-gen technology was showcased by Sony at its events here in Los Angeles on Monday and Tuesday. The reaction has, however, been mixed; those who saw the real-time demos in person have been left jaws agape, while those who didn't are generally highly sceptical of Sony's claims.
QUOTE
Eurogamer: One question on the lips of many people at the moment: how much of what we saw in the PlayStation 3 demos was actually running in real-time?

Phil Harrison: Everything in the demos was real-time.
QUOTE
Eurogamer: And what about the game footage clips?

Phil Harrison: Not all of that - in fact, none of it was real-time because it was all running off video. If you make a presentation to two and a half thousand people, you're going to put some of it on video just to be on the safe side.

I've been asked this question a lot. The way we put those videos together, everything was done to specification. Everything was done to PS3 spec. Virtually everything used in-game assets; some things were rendered.
QUOTE
Eurogamer: How representative of what we're actually going to be seeing in PS3 games were those videos?

Phil Harrison: I think very. I think depending on the game, different games took a different approach to their way of expressing what the games are like - but clearly, something like MotorStorm uses more cinematic, replay-like cameras than you would ever enjoy in-game. So that makes a big difference... But everything is done to spec.
No more killzone 2...now ps3 was infact designing game for E3 only...
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post May 20 2005, 04:23 AM

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QUOTE(eone @ May 18 2005, 11:01 AM)
just some stupid x360 fans in anandtech forums, rechecked, confirm x360 iz 115GFlops only..

well... if the overall system produce 1TFlops only, this means Ati lose to nvidia ^^
*
You people really believe any of those figures?



QUOTE(snowcrash @ May 18 2005, 11:33 AM)
From /. the "ps3 produces 1 TFlops theory" is pretty much bunk. Yes, it can do that, but only if you disable all other functions and have the entire processing speed dedicated to nothing but the benchmark.
Ie, you benchmark your computer by running nothing but benchmark utility... no directX, no background programs AND most importantly, NO OS (like windows).
All the discussion about Gigaflops are just marketing smokescreen. The PS3 has more power, but is irrelevant until the developers figure out how to get the juice from the processor "array". We'll only see real comparison around February, when the PS3 SDK has been out for long enough and there are enough 360 games out to compare with what is coming.
*
Yes, this is indeed true. The Cell has the potential to be powerful, but a LOT of that depends on how efficiently the software can take advantage of all the power. Same goes for the Xbox360 and its 6 hardware threads.



QUOTE(prazole @ May 18 2005, 12:30 PM)
Previous Sony titles does squeeze the juice out of the ps2.. so no question about that..
Epic was given 2 months and they already got their Unreal3 engine running as seen in e3.. smile.gif
and ps3 is said to produce 2 Tflop theoritically smile.gif... i will say its good news more than bad news..
*
The ps2 was not a balanced design IMO. The CPU was very powerful (although very hard to fully optimize for) but the graphics was quite behind.



For more REAL discussion about the CELL architecture, here's a good thread: http://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopic=157407
Sorry i had to crash your party, people laugh.gif
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post May 20 2005, 05:04 AM

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More Detail on the Xbox 360 GPU
QUOTE
ATI did clarify that although Microsoft isn't targetting 1080p (1920 x 1080) as a resolution for games, their GPU would be able to handle the resolution with 4X AA enabled at no performance penalty.


Scratching the Surface of NVIDIA's RSX
QUOTE
NVIDIA stated that they will eventually do a unified shader GPU, but before then there are a number of other GPU enhancements that they are looking to implement. Potentially things like a programmable ROP, programmable rasterization, programmable texturing, etc...





QUOTE
We're going to keep digging on both of these GPUs, as soon as we have more information we'll be reporting it but for now it's looking like this is the best we'll get out of Microsoft and Sony.


This post has been edited by PrivateJohn: May 20 2005, 05:04 AM
ikanayam
post May 20 2005, 05:23 AM

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QUOTE
ATI did clarify that although Microsoft isn't targetting 1080p (1920 x 1080) as a resolution for games, their GPU would be able to handle the resolution with 4X AA enabled at no performance penalty.


Hm... wonder how that works... 10MB of EDRAM can only store the back buffer at that resolution (almost 8MB), without enough space for the Z-buffer even, much less to store AA samples. If what they claim is indeed true, then things are getting much more interesting than i originally thought....
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post May 21 2005, 01:32 AM

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Anandtech tries to find next gen
QUOTE
We wrote earlier about the disappointment that was E3, now let us clarify a bit. The Sony PlayStation 3 press conference was quite enjoyable, as were our private meetings with ATI and NVIDIA to discuss PC hardware, but with no actual presence of next-generation console hardware at the show itself, we were left wanting much more.


QUOTE
Microsoft was running all of their Xbox 360 demos on Apple Powermac G5 machines, and Sony didn't have a single PS3-anything in their booth (with the exception of some clips from the press conference). This year's E3 was very much about current generation platforms and games, and in that respect it was a disappointment.

ikanayam
post May 21 2005, 01:30 PM

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http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/617/617951p1.html?fromint=1

Keep in mind that Microsoft was the one that came up with that, so take it with a truckload of salt.

Ok here is what i think of it.

CPU
Xbox:
3x PowerPC core (general purpose)
3x Vector units (FP/SIMD number crunching)

PS3:
1x PowerPC core (general purpose)
1x Vector unit (FP/SIMD number crunching)
7x SPE (FP/SIMD number crunching)

The Xbox360 will obviously have a lot more general purpose CPU power compared to the PS3. The PS3 on the other hand is a streaming FP monster, but lags behind the Xbox when it comes to general purpose computing power. How they compare in real world apps and games remains to be seen. Expect the balance to tip in favor of either one depending on what the computing demands are.


Graphics
There is definitely not enough known at this point in order to make any real comparisons yet. But from all current indications, while the performance is unknown, the Xbox360 GPU looks like it is a more novel/flexible architecture. The PS3 does claim to support 1080p HD mode, and has a dual output capability, so it seems like it will be no slouch in terms of performance. However they have not spoken anything about AA, while the Xbox360 seems to be heavily focused towards that, supposedly giving 4xAA for "almost free".
The memory bandwith comparison in that article was rather unfair IMO, because the 256GB/s figure for the Xbox is for the max EDRAM bandwith. No doubt EDRAM will give it an advantage, but to make such a simplistic comparison is just plain wrong laugh.gif
PrivateJohn
post May 21 2005, 02:38 PM

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Ya...i will wait till the game developer which got both final kit and tell us the real result.
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post May 22 2005, 04:27 AM

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E3: Microsoft's J Allard on Xbox 360
QUOTE
If there's any truth in anything we've seen this week it's that no one can really be that confident that know who has the advantage. There are more smoke and mirrors flying around at E3 this week than you'd find at a magic forum, and the best advice to anyone getting caught up in the intense arguments is to enjoy the show but take it all with a huge pinch of salt. Because nobody really knows yet. Be excited. Be disappointed. Be cynical. But don't claim you know any better than anyone else. Even J Allard admits as much in this revealing interview, conducted less than 48 hours after Sony conducted its pre-E3 briefing and played its PS3 hand.


Check out this interview, it's very hillarious...i hope they have a video capture. That's the time when we first "wow" by sony conference with all the magic, even j allard is shivering...


...and after like days after...microsoft engineer keep working out and do some "theorical calculation" and that's in ikanayam links. IGN took it from Major Nelson's blog, in case you guys don't know he is microsoft employee.

It's quite fun reading it...

Included post like this...
QUOTE
Major Nelson Says:

6 hours, 17 minutes after publication.
This is great discussion. As you can imagine...the Xbox team is reading your comments and enjoying this discussion as well. My goal here is to present you, the smart consumer, with some data. You can claim that they are biased, but they are facts...like them or not. Sony is a great company at spin and showbiz...they have a whole division dedicated to developing and creating great fictional stories (Sony Pictures) for our entertainment. They have history of taking creative license with their technical performance. At Microsoft, we take a much more reserved approach...we'd rather under promise and over deliver. I ask again: Sony where is your community spokesperson/blogger to address the concerns of the gamers? Don't you want to have a direct conversation like this with your customers? (and yes...I see Sony IP's in my blog log..so I know you are watching me.) I also want to point out that this is great discussion...you all bring up some good points, and I'll see if I can track down the experts on my team to get some answers.
The things happen over sony & microsoft is pretty much like us.

This post has been edited by PrivateJohn: May 22 2005, 04:28 AM
snowcrash
post May 24 2005, 10:19 AM

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I guess this is the best place for this post, so...

user posted image

Further context here.

whistling.gif
ray_
post May 24 2005, 10:24 AM

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Haha...Check this out.

http://www.ps3grill.com/

Don't take this seriously. Laugh about it. smile.gif
DSC
post May 24 2005, 10:14 PM

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http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=529742#529742

QUOTE
All 48 of the ALUs are able to perform operations on either pixel or vertex data. All 48 have to be doing the same thing during the same clock cycle (pixel or vertex operations), but this can alternate from clock to clock. One cycle, all 48 ALUs can be crunching vertex data, the next, they can all be doing pixel ops, but they cannot be split in the same clock cycle.


That was unexpected, I had thought the R500 would have been more flexible...... unsure.gif
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post May 24 2005, 10:17 PM

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QUOTE(DSC @ May 24 2005, 09:14 AM)
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=529742#529742
That was unexpected, I had thought the R500 would have been more flexible...... unsure.gif
*
It has been clarified that this is not true. Read the whole thread.
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post May 25 2005, 09:00 AM

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Console War II
-------------------
user posted image

A Gamers' Manifesto

QUOTE
5. And on the opposite side of the nipple coin...

Developers will be shocked one day when they notice that the world is full of women. It's true! More than half of your potential customer base are penisless. They have money. They like doing fun things. And yet, how do you think they feel when they play a game where the heroine looks like this:
user posted image
Yeah, that's what she wears into battle. Thong-length kimono, no bra for those flopping DDD breasts.

And this is years after analysts told developers that women would happily play games if they didn't feel so objectified by them, and several decades past the point where they should have even needed to be told that. Have you guys ever met a woman? Then why don't you try making just a few games that don't play off of a 14 year-old male's idea of womanhood on the apparent hope that he'll play the game one-handed?
Give it a read, it's hillarious but it's quite true!
SUSMatrix
post May 25 2005, 11:42 AM

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QUOTE(ikanayam @ May 21 2005, 01:30 PM)
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/617/617951p1.html?fromint=1

Keep in mind that Microsoft was the one that came up with that, so take it with a truckload of salt.

Ok here is what i think of it.

CPU
Xbox:
3x PowerPC core (general purpose)
3x Vector units (FP/SIMD number crunching)

PS3:
1x PowerPC core (general purpose)
1x Vector unit (FP/SIMD number crunching)
7x SPE (FP/SIMD number crunching)

The Xbox360 will obviously have a lot more general purpose CPU power compared to the PS3. The PS3 on the other hand is a streaming FP monster, but lags behind the Xbox when it comes to general purpose computing power. How they compare in real world apps and games remains to be seen. Expect the balance to tip in favor of either one depending on what the computing demands are.
Graphics
There is definitely not enough known at this point in order to make any real comparisons yet. But from all current indications, while the performance is unknown, the Xbox360 GPU looks like it is a more novel/flexible architecture. The PS3 does claim to support 1080p HD mode, and has a dual output capability, so it seems like it will be no slouch in terms of performance. However they have not spoken anything about AA, while the Xbox360 seems to be heavily focused towards that, supposedly giving 4xAA for "almost free".
The memory bandwith comparison in that article was rather unfair IMO, because the 256GB/s figure for the Xbox is for the max EDRAM bandwith. No doubt EDRAM will give it an advantage, but to make such a simplistic comparison is just plain wrong laugh.gif
*
IGN is really a truckload of shit. That looks more like a marketing campaign written by some 10-years old moron at MS marketing department. They keep blabbering the 256GB/sec, which is the bandwitdth between the EDRAM and/or between the main GPU and the daugther GPU(the XBOX360 GPU is split in two). Anyone who has half a brain can see through the bullshit. Really, they needen't to resort to such low tactics...and i guess IGN was paid handsomely by MS.

There's a much fairer and realistic (and neutral) comparison of the specs at Gamespot. At least they don't take sides with no real information.

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post May 25 2005, 11:58 AM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ May 24 2005, 10:42 PM)
IGN is really a truckload of shit. That looks more like a marketing campaign written by some 10-years old moron at MS marketing department. They keep blabbering the 256GB/sec, which is the bandwitdth between the EDRAM and/or between the main GPU and the daugther GPU(the XBOX360 GPU is split in two). Anyone who has half a brain can see through the bullshit. Really, they needen't to resort to such low tactics...and i guess IGN was paid handsomely by MS.

There's a much fairer and realistic (and neutral) comparison of the specs at Gamespot. At least they don't take sides with no real information.
*
laugh.gif No need to get so mad. Did you even read the clear disclaimers IGN wrote right at the beginning of the article? It was not IGN who wrote that article. Read carefully.
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post May 25 2005, 12:40 PM

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QUOTE(ikanayam @ May 25 2005, 11:58 AM)
laugh.gif No need to get so mad. Did you even read the clear disclaimers IGN wrote right at the beginning of the article? It was not IGN who wrote that article. Read carefully.
*
Izzit?? Tak nampak-ler! blush.gif

Okay..okay..saw it already! hee-hee..okay let's make that MS is a truckload of shit...

Let's see how SONY gonna counter this...so that i can put "SONY is a truckload of shit" soon.... tongue.gif

This post has been edited by Matrix: May 25 2005, 12:42 PM
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post May 25 2005, 12:48 PM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ May 25 2005, 11:42 AM)
IGN is really a truckload of shit. That looks more like a  marketing campaign written by some 10-years old moron at MS marketing department.  They keep blabbering the 256GB/sec, which is the bandwitdth between the EDRAM and/or between the main GPU and the daugther GPU(the XBOX360 GPU is split in two). Anyone who has half a brain can see through the bullshit. Really, they needen't to resort to such low tactics...and i guess IGN was paid handsomely by MS.

There's a much fairer and realistic (and neutral) comparison of the specs at Gamespot. At least they don't take sides with no real information.
*
I don't see what the fuss is about. That was a very balance analysis based on speculative data. Based on the speculative information, the XBox 360 does seems to be a more powerful beast compared to the PS3 or the Revolution.

I don't own a XBox and am myself a huge fan of Nintendo. But I can't deny the blatant fact slapped right at my face. But again this is speculative, so please hold your horses with titanium reins.
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post May 25 2005, 12:49 PM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ May 24 2005, 11:40 PM)
Izzit?? Tak nampak-ler!  blush.gif

Okay..okay..saw it already! hee-hee..okay let's make that MS is a truckload of shit...

Let's see how SONY gonna counter this...so that i can put "SONY is a truckload of shit" soon.... tongue.gif
*
Some of it was BS as usual, but some things they said were quite true, as i said in my earlier post.
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post May 25 2005, 12:51 PM

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QUOTE(ray_ @ May 24 2005, 11:48 PM)
I don't see what the fuss is about. That was a very balance analysis based on speculative data. Based on the speculative information, the XBox 360 does seems to be a more powerful beast compared to the PS3 or the Revolution.

I don't own a XBox and am myself a huge fan of Nintendo. But I can't deny the blatant fact slapped right at my face. But again this is speculative, so please hold your horses with titanium reins.
*
I wouldn't look at it as a completely fair analysis. Clearly some things were pure BS like the part about the transistor count comparison.
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post May 25 2005, 12:54 PM

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QUOTE(ray_ @ May 25 2005, 12:48 PM)
I don't see what the fuss is about. That was a very balance analysis based on speculative data. Based on the speculative information, the XBox 360 does seems to be a more powerful beast compared to the PS3 or the Revolution.

I don't own a XBox and am myself a huge fan of Nintendo. But I can't deny the blatant fact slapped right at my face. But again this is speculative, so please hold your horses with titanium reins.
*
Yes, it's all speculation. But, there was NOTHING balance about the analysis. In fact, it wasn't any analysis. If it's from anandtech or tomshardware or ars-technica, then it's an analysis. This is just pure marketing crap.

And how can you even SPECULATE that XBOX360 is more powerful than Revolution when there is ZERO info of the Revolution hardware specs available?????

This post has been edited by Matrix: May 25 2005, 12:55 PM
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post May 25 2005, 12:59 PM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ May 24 2005, 11:54 PM)
Yes, it's all speculation. But, there was NOTHING balance about the analysis. In fact, it wasn't any analysis. If it's from anandtech or tomshardware or ars-technica, then it's an analysis. This is just pure marketing crap.

And how can you even SPECULATE that XBOX360 is more powerful than Revolution when there is ZERO info of the Revolution hardware specs available?????
*
Nintendo already said that their next generation console would not be big and powerful like the rest. Their target was only 2-3 times more powerful than the Gamecube. So some of us put 2 and 2 together.... and what do you know....

I agree that ars-technica has good technical discussions about such things. I reserve comment on tomshardware and anandtech, for i do not read them anymore.
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post May 25 2005, 01:06 PM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ May 25 2005, 12:54 PM)
Yes, it's all speculation. But, there was NOTHING balance about the analysis. In fact, it wasn't any analysis. If it's from anandtech or tomshardware or ars-technica, then it's an analysis. This is just pure marketing crap.

And how can you even SPECULATE that XBOX360 is more powerful than Revolution when there is ZERO info of the Revolution hardware specs available?????
*
It's an analysis. Look at the charts, those are what you would find in an analysis.

Regarding the speculation of the Revolution spec, Nintendo did say that it's 2 or 3 times more powerful than GC.

Again, the analysis this is based on speculative data. Don't grill the presenter (IGN) if the data is inaccurate, grill Microsoft.
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post May 25 2005, 01:07 PM

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Well it is not Microsoft's official stand on the matter anyway. It's written in the guy's blog.
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post May 25 2005, 01:10 PM

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QUOTE(ikanayam @ May 25 2005, 01:07 PM)
Well it is not Microsoft's official stand on the matter anyway. It's written in the guy's blog.
*
Ah... grill him then.
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post May 25 2005, 01:13 PM

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QUOTE(ray_ @ May 25 2005, 12:10 AM)
Ah... grill him then.
*
Well there was a pretty good discussion going on at his blog site already. Go look for it and grill him if you want. Anyway this is not a people bashing thread, so lets get back to the topic.
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post May 25 2005, 01:16 PM

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now the whole e3 is over,so does this thread,not much of new hype to keep this running
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post May 25 2005, 01:19 PM

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Well i think the purpose of this thread is not to run on hype tongue.gif

So far the details have been coming out slowly, there will be more revelations over these next few months or so.
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QUOTE(ccb @ May 25 2005, 01:16 PM)
now the whole e3 is over,so does this thread,not much of new hype to keep this running
*
Nah, this is where it truly begins seeing as almost all of them have laid their cards on the table. If anything its gonna get pretty hot as each company will now try and one-up each other by boasting title releases, specs and even some mudslinging biggrin.gif
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post May 25 2005, 01:21 PM

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so now they hinted PS3 will be selling for 370 USD,same price for the last PS3 when it first come out and ken kutaragi said that the PS3 will be an entertaiment supoercom,will this dream be realise?
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QUOTE(ikanayam @ May 25 2005, 01:19 PM)
Well i think the purpose of this thread is not to run on hype tongue.gif

So far the details have been coming out slowly, there will be more revelations over these next few months or so.
*
I couldn't agree more. It really gets me when people gets offended with certain analysis skewed towards a particular console. They're tonnes of it out there, one just need to take an unbiased stance and go through these articles objectively.
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post May 25 2005, 01:42 PM

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QUOTE(ccb @ May 25 2005, 01:21 PM)
so now they hinted PS3 will be selling for 370 USD,same price for the last PS3 when it first come out and ken kutaragi said that the PS3 will be an entertaiment supoercom,will this dream be realise?
*
Hey, the PS2 was a "supercomputer" when they launch it. Remember the "missile launching" fiasco and the US ban of export to China and elsewhere?? People were jokingly saying Saddam hoarding the PS2 to strike at the US! Ha-ha!

I wonder what missile are they going to launch this time. LOL.
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post May 25 2005, 01:46 PM

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ai,enough of polictics,we are here to talk about hardware not missiles or politics
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QUOTE(ccb @ May 25 2005, 01:46 PM)
ai,enough of polictics,we are here to talk about hardware not missiles or politics
*
I think i forgot to type in "ban of export of <b>PS2</b> to China and elsewhere".

laugh.gif
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post May 25 2005, 02:29 PM

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I seriously doubt Sony's approach of the PS3 core. 7 DSP (SPE) without L1 cache is unthinkable.

DSP are good at crunching data at high MIPS, in this case floating numbers. I would think that it would be prudent to at least have a data cache (D-cache). Without cache the bottleneck would likely be the access latency to the DRAM (whichever type it is). It just make more sense to have cache.

Well, we'll just have to wait and see how it goes.

EDIT: And no DMA too!!

This post has been edited by ray_: May 25 2005, 02:33 PM
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post May 25 2005, 02:30 PM

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well,so far most agree that we dont give a damn about the hardware just the games after games rulez tongue.gif
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post May 25 2005, 06:42 PM

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According to some blog...PS3 specs like the 7 port bluetooth etc are just concept, the final machine won't have that many ports...it was just a concept to see what's the feedback, what the gamers want.

Hope that's true, having 7 bluetooth port isn't wise in term of the cost.
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QUOTE(ccb @ May 25 2005, 02:30 PM)
well,so far most agree that we dont give a damn about the hardware just the games after games rulez tongue.gif
*
well, like it or not, hardware is wat determines aspects of the games... aspects such as graphics quality, loading times, etc etc...

for me, i believe all next-gen games should not have obscene loading times... it may be a small thing, but i'm sure it matters to some tongue.gif
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QUOTE(Furious Han @ May 25 2005, 06:58 PM)
well, like it or not, hardware is wat determines aspects of the games... aspects such as graphics quality, loading times, etc etc...

for me, i believe all next-gen games should not have obscene loading times... it may be a small thing, but i'm sure it matters to some tongue.gif
*
that also depends on the developers..
we know some game can look worst and loads like a sloth
and yet some game look so gorgeous and without any loading times..

hardware is like a weapon, but the skills also major matters here..
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QUOTE(Matrix @ May 25 2005, 01:42 PM)
Hey, the PS2 was a "supercomputer" when they launch it. Remember the "missile launching" fiasco and the US ban of export to China and elsewhere?? People were jokingly saying Saddam hoarding the PS2 to strike at the US! Ha-ha!

I wonder what missile are they going to launch this time. LOL.
*
I think last time right, they claimed PS2 is capable of controlling "cruise missle" from afar. Xbox on the other hand, can control "Nuclear missile".

Lol! laugh.gif

Back on topic, I was wondering when Nintendo going to show off the controllers for Revolution? unsure.gif
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post May 25 2005, 09:31 PM

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didn't realize here got next gen consoles debate. anyway, think i read it on yesterday in-tech, 360 is using cpu thats way lower than ps3 cpu. microsoft say because they don't want the console become too expensive, so they are sacrificing the specs. sony on the other hand are pushing all the specs up without regards for the price because they want the most powerful console ever made. both are taking extremely huge risk with their new strategies. and revolution will use 12" disc. is that the normal disc size? or normal wun is 8"?
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post May 25 2005, 09:42 PM

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Nanotech to increase DVD capacity to 850 GByte
Hmm...dvd is not dead yet!!!

Ya if sony promises to deliver all of that spec, it will be the most expensive hardware compare to xb360 & revolution unless they wana do it like first xbox, otherwise it will has disadvantage in price war.
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wow.850 GB? do we need that? tongue.gif
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Games lineup is still the most important...
E.G If they released a ps3 and still release metal gear series,devil may cry and final fantasy series on the ps2..then why get the ps3?
Simple concept..
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nah,square enix tradition is make 3 or 4 game for a console then shift,MGs 4 is confirmed for ps3 so hardly it will go for ps2 since it would take double load
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post May 25 2005, 10:01 PM

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even if the dvd get upgraded to such large capacity, current dvd drive cannot read the new disc. hence, it will be the same as upgrading to HD-DVD.

next gen console all are targeting for HDtv, but read it yesterday that only 3 out of 10 home in U.S got HDtv. the real question is how good will it look on normal tv.
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post May 25 2005, 10:03 PM

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that you have to wait untill 2006 to get your answer sine no company would say that it sucks at normal tv,it would deter normal customer like us
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post May 25 2005, 10:12 PM

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if a game is made with HDTV in mind, there will be many tiny and small things that will make the game look more real. but hook up to normal tv with those vertical black line, imagine how real will it look?
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post May 25 2005, 10:15 PM

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QUOTE(ray_ @ May 25 2005, 01:29 AM)
I seriously doubt Sony's approach of the PS3 core. 7 DSP (SPE) without L1 cache is unthinkable.

DSP are good at crunching data at high MIPS, in this case floating numbers. I would think that it would be prudent to at least have a data cache (D-cache). Without cache the bottleneck would likely be the access latency to the DRAM (whichever type it is). It just make more sense to have cache.

Well, we'll just have to wait and see how it goes.

EDIT: And no DMA too!!
*
Where did you get that info about no cache and no DMA from?



QUOTE(xxboxx @ May 25 2005, 08:31 AM)
didn't realize here got next gen consoles debate. anyway, think i read it on yesterday in-tech, 360 is using cpu thats way lower than ps3 cpu. microsoft say because they don't want the console become too expensive, so they are sacrificing the specs. sony on the other hand are pushing all the specs up without regards for the price because they want the most powerful console ever made. both are taking extremely huge risk with their new strategies. and revolution will use 12" disc. is that the normal disc size? or normal wun is 8"?
*
Well as we have discussed earlier in this thread, the performance for the XB360 CPU and the PS3 CPU will probably differ depending on the application. I think it was more of a design decision than a sacrifice.
I think they were saying that the Revolution uses 12cm discs. No one wants 12" discs anymore laugh.gif
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post May 25 2005, 11:53 PM

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Playstation 3 GPU is still in development

QUOTE
At the recent J.P. Morgan technology conference, NVIDIA's CFO, Marv Burkett, gave a fifteen-minute presentation discussing how business matters inside NVIDIA are flowing, including how well certain areas of the business are growing. The larger topics covered included RSX, the chip behind the awesome graphics on Playstation 3, and upcoming 90 nanometre products.
QUOTE
Burkett stated that RSX is still in development and that no actual silicon is available yet. In other words, the silicon is not even taped out thus far. If we look at Sony's schedule, we expect that RSX is being finalised right now, and should be taped out before September, and the first silicon will be available nearer Christmas, in time for enough units to be made in the run up to the expected Spring 2006 launch.


QUOTE
This means that there is one question that remains unanswered. The pre-E3 press conference that was held by Sony had a large number of technology demos - what GPU was used to render those if RSX is still in development?


QUOTE
So, if NVIDIA's upcoming part is capable of all that we saw demonstrated at the press conference, what is RSX capable of?

Do you think RSX is going to be even better than NVIDIA's upcoming desktop products?

ccb
post May 26 2005, 12:05 AM

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anyway ,lots of speculator at this moment,can only see the final result,sigh so long time
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post May 26 2005, 12:08 AM

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They were probably using the upcoming G70 chip for the tech demos (assuming they were all rendered in real time)
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post May 26 2005, 12:10 AM

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assuming they dont use the G70 and rsx for the demo,what chip they use? 2 geforce 6800 ultra? tongue.gif
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post May 26 2005, 12:13 AM

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QUOTE(ccb @ May 26 2005, 12:05 AM)
anyway ,lots of speculator at this moment,can only see the final result,sigh so long time
*
Well it's by NVIDIA's CFO himself, so it isn't really some speculation.

Now the question lies on whether the RSX could live up the expectation or it could be much stronger?
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post May 26 2005, 12:16 AM

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QUOTE(ccb @ May 25 2005, 11:10 AM)
assuming they dont use the G70 and rsx for the demo,what chip they use? 2 geforce 6800 ultra? tongue.gif
*
I doubt it. They have already taped out the G70, so i'm sure they were using that if not the RSX
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post May 26 2005, 12:26 AM

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now i got better idea for sony if RSX fail,use G70 or use 3 geforce 6800 ultra since they said RSX is more then 2 of it tongue.gif
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post May 26 2005, 12:31 AM

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QUOTE(ccb @ May 25 2005, 11:26 AM)
now i got better idea for sony if RSX fail,use G70 or use 3 geforce 6800 ultra since they said RSX is more then 2 of it tongue.gif
*
Hey guess what? It's not going to happen. Those other chips are not made for the PS3 architecture/interface.
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post May 26 2005, 12:32 AM

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damn,was hoping to sell that idea to sony for millions tongue.gif ,anyway gonna sleep now,wonder what tomorrow install for me,cell manufacturing factory on fire? tongue.gif
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post May 26 2005, 12:35 AM

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Yes go to sleep already, this topic has been derailed enough.

Btw look what i found: http://winsupersite.com/showcase/xbox360_vs_ps3.asp

It's easier for the reading impaired, but a lot of the stuff there is not final yet.
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QUOTE(xxboxx @ May 25 2005, 10:01 PM)
even if the dvd get upgraded to such large capacity, current dvd drive cannot read the new disc. hence, it will be the same as upgrading to HD-DVD.

next gen console all are targeting for HDtv, but read it yesterday that only 3 out of 10 home in U.S got HDtv. the real question is how good will it look on normal tv.
*
Hey, if it can look like the CG of Tekken, Soul Calibur, FF series etc in real-time, I'm satisfied liao.

It looks damn good even on old SDTV.
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post May 26 2005, 08:58 AM

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QUOTE(xxboxx @ May 25 2005, 09:31 PM)
didn't realize here got next gen consoles debate. anyway, think i read it on yesterday in-tech, 360 is using cpu thats way lower than ps3 cpu. microsoft say because they don't want the console become too expensive, so they are sacrificing the specs. sony on the other hand are pushing all the specs up without regards for the price because they want the most powerful console ever made. both are taking extremely huge risk with their new strategies. and revolution will use 12" disc. is that the normal disc size? or normal wun is 8"?
*
Just read In-Tech today, major coverage and pictures of next-gen consoles. According to the report, Nintendo Revolution CAN'T read DVD out of the box, but needs additional adapter.

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post May 26 2005, 08:59 AM

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QUOTE(ray_ @ May 25 2005, 02:29 PM)
I seriously doubt Sony's approach of the PS3 core. 7 DSP (SPE) without L1 cache is unthinkable.

DSP are good at crunching data at high MIPS, in this case floating numbers. I would think that it would be prudent to at least have a data cache (D-cache). Without cache the bottleneck would likely be the access latency to the DRAM (whichever type it is). It just make more sense to have cache.

Well, we'll just have to wait and see how it goes.

EDIT: And no DMA too!!
*
Straight from the horse's mouth:IBM Cell project page
QUOTE
Memory access is performed via a DMA-based interface using copy-in/copy-out semantics, and data transfers can be initiated by either the Power processor or an SPU. The DMA-based interface uses the Power page protection model, giving a consistent interface to the system storage map for all processor structures despite its heterogeneous instruction set architecture structure. A high-performance on-chip bus connects the SPU and Power computing elements.


Furthermore, each SPE has 256K of "Local Storage", which is effectively a Von Neumann style L1 cache.
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post May 26 2005, 09:00 AM

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Aww you gave it away, i wanted him to verify the truth of his facts on his own tongue.gif
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post May 26 2005, 09:15 AM

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One thing about PS3 and XBOX360....both DOESN'T have any dedicated sound chip like their predecessor. I guess they're losing hair to cut cost everywhere. Still both machine touted supporting Dobly Digital, DTS etc etc.

So one of the core in the machines shall be used to handle the sound/music processing i guess.

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post May 26 2005, 09:18 AM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ May 25 2005, 08:15 PM)
One thing about PS3 and XBOX360....both DOESN'T have any dedicated sound chip like their predecessor. I guess they're losing hair to cut cost everywhere. Still both machine touted supporting Dobly Digital, DTS etc etc.

So one of the core in the machines shall be used to handle the sound/music processing i guess.
*
Are you sure they both don't have any dedicated sound processors? Maybe the details have just not been revealed yet. In any case, they both should have plenty of processing power to handle audio even if it is purely software.
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post May 26 2005, 09:51 AM

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QUOTE(ikanayam @ May 26 2005, 09:00 AM)
Aww you gave it away, i wanted him to verify the truth of his facts on his own tongue.gif
*
I would have quoted from the same place. I don't see why you need to do this. You should discuss about the topic at hand knowing full well that the source is valid/invalid instead of having someone quote something that you've already read somewhere. You could have provided the link instead. Shame on you.

Please don't patronize.

EDIT: By the way, nothing is carved in stone currently. The thread comment reads speculative discussion, this is what it is, speculative. So please stop the "your source is wrong and my source is correct" argument unless you work for MS, Sony or PS3 next gen. console or have irrefutable prove that your source is correct. Or just leave it at that, speculative and enjoy the rebuttal.

This post has been edited by ray_: May 26 2005, 10:14 AM
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post May 26 2005, 10:46 AM

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QUOTE(silkworm @ May 26 2005, 08:59 AM)
Straight from the horse's mouth:IBM Cell project page
Furthermore, each SPE has 256K of "Local Storage", which is effectively a Von Neumann style L1 cache.
*
Thanks for the link.

I'm not sure you could qualify the "Local Storage" as L1 cache yet. I would think that L1 cache access should be synchronized at core's frequency. We'll need to see if "Local Storage" is running at core frequency or other slower bus frequencies.

But you got one thing right. The SPE does indeed have DMA. There are no description however on whether the SMFs are DMAs. It would be nice to know if they have a dedicated DMA channel for each SPU or virtual DMA channels supported by a few physical DMAs.
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post May 26 2005, 11:57 AM

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QUOTE(ray_ @ May 25 2005, 09:46 PM)
Thanks for the link.

I'm not sure you could qualify the "Local Storage" as L1 cache yet. I would think that L1 cache access should be synchronized at core's frequency. We'll need to see if "Local Storage" is running at core frequency or other slower bus frequencies.

But you got one thing right. The SPE does indeed have DMA. There are no description however on whether the SMFs are DMAs. It would be nice to know if they have a dedicated DMA channel for each SPU or virtual DMA channels supported by a few physical DMAs.
*
the local storage is on die, therefore it is almost certain that it is running at core frequency. Especially since the SPEs are so data hungry, it would be practically a design flaw if they didn't have such fast cache. And i don't think we have seen any recent CPU with a L1/L2 cache running slower than core freq.
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post May 26 2005, 11:57 AM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ May 26 2005, 09:15 AM)
One thing about PS3 and XBOX360....both DOESN'T have any dedicated sound chip like their predecessor. I guess they're losing hair to cut cost everywhere. Still both machine touted supporting Dobly Digital, DTS etc etc.

So one of the core in the machines shall be used to handle the sound/music processing i guess.
*
my dc pumps better sounds than my ps2 or xbox....i think because yamaha provided dc the audio card
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post May 26 2005, 12:29 PM

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QUOTE(ikanayam @ May 26 2005, 11:57 AM)
the local storage is on die, therefore it is almost certain that it is running at core frequency. Especially since the SPEs are so data hungry, it would be practically a design flaw if they didn't have such fast cache. And i don't think we have seen any recent CPU with a L1/L2 cache running slower than core freq.
*
You'll need to think SoC (System-On-Chip). With SoC, every friggin' peripherals are now on a die. But I do agree with your argument as I've made similar comment earlier, I don't see how this would work without L1 cache. But again I stress, until we see some clock distribution diagram, this is all speculative.

By the way, L2 cache does not necessarily run at core frequency. There are L2 cache that runs at lower frequencies such as that of the FSB. But L1 cache always runs at core frequency.

EDIT: I've read that you said recently. So yes, most recent L2 cache runs at core speed. But the question is, is the L2 cache in PS3 doing the same?

This post has been edited by ray_: May 26 2005, 12:37 PM
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Wow... intelligent conversation in the console forum... thumbup.gif

Anyway, Ars Technica has some juicy bits about Xbox 360 for techies here. Thanks to Evil Avatar for the link.

In other news, rumour has it that the revolutionary feature of the Revolution is a tactile touchscreen... In essence its something like a force feedback screen.
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QUOTE(ray_ @ May 25 2005, 11:29 PM)
EDIT: I've read that you said recently. So yes, most recent L2 cache runs at core speed. But the question is, is the L2 cache in PS3 doing the same?
*
I am 99% certain that it runs at the same speed as the core. There really is no reason for it not to. I don't think it's even a big design challenge anymore to get cache memory cells to work at those frequencies.
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post May 26 2005, 01:08 PM

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tech specs aside, hideo kojima makes a dinner analogy about the new gen systems. also, he talks mgs4 if anyone is interested (OT i know).

http://www.hellogamer.com/2005/05/25/kojim...l-gear-solid-4/
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post May 26 2005, 01:11 PM

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QUOTE(ikanayam @ May 26 2005, 12:52 PM)
I am 99% certain that it runs at the same speed as the core. There really is no reason for it not to. I don't think it's even a big design challenge anymore to get cache memory cells to work at those frequencies.
*
I'm an ignorant fool. Exactly what frequency is the PS3 core capable of?
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post May 26 2005, 01:18 PM

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3.2 ghz but at the lab its reported to go up to 6 ghz
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post May 26 2005, 01:19 PM

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The cell is theoretically capable of achieving about 4GHz with an 80W power dissipation. According to IBM, they have tested it to reach up to 5.6GHz and dissipate 180W, but that is clearly not practical. Cache is typically much easy to design and produce than logic, because it is nicely uniform (which allows it to be densely packed) and not very complex compared to logic hardware. If you notice, one of the 1st things intel builds/tests on its new manufacturing processes is cache cells.
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post May 26 2005, 03:44 PM

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microsoft say 360 will be able to play xbox games, but not all.
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post May 26 2005, 03:54 PM

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QUOTE(snipersnake @ May 26 2005, 11:57 AM)
my dc pumps better sounds than my ps2 or xbox....i think because yamaha provided dc the audio card
*
Haaa! Haaaaa! DC pumps better sound than XBOX?? Haaaa! haaaaa!

Cmon-ler, I've a DC once also. It has good sound, but nowhere near the quality of Dobly Digital 5.1 of the XBOX. But the DC sound is about equivalent with the PS2.

But of course, if you're still using the TV stereo speakers. You probably can't hear any difference.

This post has been edited by Matrix: May 26 2005, 03:59 PM
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QUOTE(xxboxx @ May 26 2005, 03:44 PM)
microsoft say 360 will be able to play xbox games, but not all.
*
Only the "best selling games". I imagine they're having a nightmare trying to work on an emulator that works within such short timeframe. Imagine...all the PC emulators take years to stabilize and even then it won't run 100% correctly.

They've < 1 year to get a working emulator..Even if it works for a few games, it'll be a mighty achievement already!

The PS3 is a different story. The PS2 has built-in PS1 chip, so i guess the PS3 will have a stripped PS2&PS1 chip built in??

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QUOTE(Matrix @ May 26 2005, 03:54 PM)
Haaa! Haaaaa! DC pumps better sound than XBOX?? Haaaa! haaaaa!

Cmon-ler, I've a DC once also. It has good sound, but nowhere near the quality of Dobly Digital 5.1 of the XBOX. But the DC sound is about equivalent with the PS2.

But of course, if you're still using the TV stereo speakers. You probably can't hear any difference.
*
PS2 is capable of doing 5.1 during CG and DVD..
so its not exactly equivalent to DC. sorry..
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post May 26 2005, 04:56 PM

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QUOTE(ray_ @ May 26 2005, 10:46 AM)
Thanks for the link.

I'm not sure you could qualify the "Local Storage" as L1 cache yet. I would think that L1 cache access should be synchronized at core's frequency. We'll need to see if "Local Storage" is running at core frequency or other slower bus frequencies.

But you got one thing right. The SPE does indeed have DMA. There are no description however on whether the SMFs are DMAs. It would be nice to know if they have a dedicated DMA channel for each SPU or virtual DMA channels supported by a few physical DMAs.
*

Actually, after reading the arstechnica article on the X360 CPU, I was reminded of something. The targetted application of the SPUs is mainly processing of streaming data, which is inherently cache-unfriendly. Cache in the memory hierarchy alleviates the memory-to-cpu bottleneck by leveraging temporal and spatial locality. 3D scene data and video decoding have neither locality. However, code that acts on this data has high locality. Hence, the SPE local store looks like it is more useful as I-cache + deep buffer for streaming data.

This sort of lines up with the "DSP-like" tag the SPEs have been given. Real DSPs also don't feature much in the way of data caches, since they're operated in more of a "fire and forget" way. Which makes sense, because unless you're playing a broken record, or pointing a camera at a painting, there's no way that the data into the DSP is going to repeat itself.

This post has been edited by silkworm: May 26 2005, 05:09 PM
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QUOTE(prazole @ May 26 2005, 04:13 PM)
PS2 is capable of doing 5.1 during CG and DVD..
so its not exactly equivalent to DC. sorry..
*
Yes, it's slightly better than a DC. But i'm more interested in the real-time dobly digital encoding like those of the XBOX. PS2 can only do decoding of 5.1 for CG/DVD playback( although one or two games do make use of DTS encoding via software). Armed with a HT system, it really makes the PS2 version of the same game sounds like pop gun. DPL2 is nice but really no substitute for DD5.1 once you've experienced it.



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QUOTE(silkworm @ May 26 2005, 04:56 PM)
Actually, after reading the arstechnica article on the X360 CPU, I was reminded of something. The targetted application of the SPUs is mainly processing of streaming data, which is inherently cache-unfriendly. Cache in the memory hierarchy alleviates the memory-to-cpu bottleneck by leveraging temporal and spatial locality. 3D scene data and video decoding have neither locality. However, code that acts on this data has high locality. Hence, the SPE local store looks like it is more useful as I-cache + deep buffer for streaming data.

This sort of lines up with the "DSP-like" tag the SPEs have been given. Real DSPs also don't feature data caches, they're operated in more of a "fire and forget" way. Which makes sense, because unless you're playing a broken record, or pointing a camera at a painting, there's no way that the data into the DSP is going to repeat itself.
*
Ah...I've forgotten my facts. Most recent DSP iteration has i-cache not d-cache. I apologize for my error.

One noteworthy point though. It's almost certain that the DMA of the SPE would be utilized for isochronous transfer (streaming data), thus off-loading the core. The DMA would most certainly have a reduced pipeline, removing redundant stages normally required in a CPU pipeline. There wouldn't be any need to fetch/execute any instructions at all.



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QUOTE(Matrix @ May 26 2005, 05:24 PM)
Yes, it's slightly better than a DC. But i'm more interested in the real-time dobly digital encoding like those of the XBOX. PS2 can only do decoding of 5.1 for CG/DVD playback( although one or two games do make use of DTS encoding via software). Armed with a HT system, it really makes the PS2 version of the same game sounds like pop gun. DPL2 is nice but really no substitute for DD5.1 once you've experienced it.
*
so you have 5.1 speaker in your room isit?
i dun get to play in 5.1 surround in my room.. so i m not really complaining about this..
unless ur got the xbox hook up to 5.1 24/7 then its different story
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post May 26 2005, 07:20 PM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ May 26 2005, 03:58 PM)
Only the "best selling games". I imagine they're having a nightmare trying to work on an emulator that works within such short timeframe. Imagine...all the PC emulators take years to stabilize and even then it won't run 100% correctly.

They've < 1 year to get a working emulator..Even if it works for a few games, it'll be a mighty achievement already!
*
If all games are compatible...imagine the royalties microsoft need to pay nvidia...is not like i gona play halo 1 again when i have xbox360...

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QUOTE(PrivateJohn @ May 26 2005, 07:20 PM)
If all games are compatible...imagine the royalties microsoft need to pay nvidia...is not like i gona play halo 1 again when i have xbox360...
*
not to mention intel,since it now uses IBM right instead of intel
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QUOTE(PrivateJohn @ May 26 2005, 07:20 PM)
If all games are compatible...imagine the royalties microsoft need to pay nvidia...is not like i gona play halo 1 again when i have xbox360...
*
it is important for japanese gamer mar.. when they buy new phone.. old phone put in recycle bin one..
sumore they announced during conference.. sure thinking that if sony also got.. they have to do lo to keep up a good fight..

yeah, but i agree its not important to me!
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sony use their own technology ma so no nid to worry about royalties but if games like halo nid to pay 4 usd per game as royalty,sure a hard hit for MS la since million of copy have been sold,a unwise tactics for MS to fully support backward compability
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post May 27 2005, 08:49 AM

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Xbox 360 vs PS 3 Blogcast (MP3) - interview with Michael and Bruce from the Xbox Advanced Technology Group

QUOTE
That is the team that authored the Xbox 360 vs PS3 report that has caused quite the uproar in the gaming community. In this blogcast, Michael and Bruce address some of the questions that people have posted on this blog, as well as explain more of the inner workings of the Xbox 360.

Warning: Parts of this blogcast get extremely technical.
Downloading and see what they goto say...

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post May 27 2005, 09:01 AM

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QUOTE(prazole @ May 26 2005, 07:19 PM)
so you have 5.1 speaker in your room isit?
i dun get to play in 5.1 surround in my room.. so i m not really complaining about this..
unless ur got the xbox hook up to 5.1 24/7 then its different story
*
Hee-hee. No. I play in the living room, with a customized 5.1 HT system...not the most expensive or greatest ever(cost me about RM3.5K then, 2 or 3 years back), but the amp and the woofer does the job nicely although the speakers are kinda cheap, but still decent enough.

Once you've load in Burnout 2/3 for both PS2 and XBOX version...you can clearly hear the distinct and accurate surround sound separation of the XBOX version and the solid thumping heavy bass and low frequency engines roars... that's how a video game suppose to feel!

And yes, it's hooked up to my HT system 24/7, as it sits in the living room, while my PSTwo sits in the bedroom.

I think even in bedroom, you can get a sub 1K 5.1 system which sounds pretty good nowadays and packs enough power for the bedroom without annoying the rest of your family members!

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QUOTE(ccb @ May 26 2005, 07:31 PM)
sony use their own technology ma so no nid to worry about royalties but if games like halo nid to pay 4 usd per game as royalty,sure a hard hit for MS la since million of copy have been sold,a unwise tactics for MS to fully support backward compability
*
Hence the reason why the Xbox 360 is actually emulating the Xbox... It isn't putting a separate Xbox core into it like how they're doing with the PS3. They don't have to pay any royalties to anyone since they're not using nVidia chipsets (which would be weird as they're using an Ati chip in there laugh.gif)
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QUOTE(PrivateJohn @ May 27 2005, 08:49 AM)
Xbox 360 vs PS 3 Blogcast (MP3) - interview with Michael and Bruce from the Xbox Advanced Technology Group
Downloading and see what they goto say...
*
i dun think they got good thing to say about the ps3..
they already counter ps3 specs with lots of graphs already
haha
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post May 27 2005, 04:05 PM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ May 27 2005, 09:01 AM)
Hee-hee. No. I play in the living room, with a customized 5.1 HT system...not the most expensive or greatest ever(cost me about RM3.5K then, 2 or 3 years back), but the amp and the woofer does the job nicely although the speakers are kinda cheap, but still decent enough.

Once you've load in Burnout 2/3 for both PS2 and XBOX version...you can clearly hear the distinct and accurate surround sound separation of the XBOX version and the solid thumping heavy bass and low frequency engines roars... that's how a video game suppose to feel!

And yes, it's hooked up to my HT system 24/7, as it sits in the living room, while my PSTwo sits in the bedroom.

I think even in bedroom, you can get a sub 1K 5.1 system which sounds pretty good nowadays and packs enough power for the bedroom without annoying the rest of your family members!
*
i hook it to 5.1 also
the best thing about 5.1 is when playing racing games, you can hear from behind a car is closing in on you. and with games like star wars battlefront shocking.gif shocking.gif
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post May 28 2005, 01:49 AM

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Nintendo Screws Europe (again)
QUOTE
According to a Nintendo executive who was not named, Nintendo is "currently looking at mirroring the DS strategy, so Revolution would release in the US first in November, closely followed by Japan. Then we're looking at March 2007 for PAL territories."


Got it from evilavatar.

My question is...why next gen war everybody targeting US audience first...xb360, ps3, now revolution....US is like everybody's priority.
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post May 28 2005, 09:38 PM

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Well i think xbox will sell good in the north american market... microsoft hype there. but in japan ps3 still will rule


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post May 28 2005, 11:39 PM

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hi all. this my frst post ever. hehe.
did anyone read bout da new revolution's specs? it's out on some india-based website. techtree.com if im not wrong. it says dat da revolution has a 4-core 2.5 ghz ibm proccessor, 512 mb ram, n an ati graphics card with 16mb of dram(not sure bout this). im not a fanboy of nintendo or anythin, in fact im an xbox fanboy but i think da nx-gen consoles war(specs wise) looks to have been won by de underdogs(kinda..) ,nintendo.
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QUOTE(aleckian @ May 28 2005, 09:38 PM)
Well i think xbox will sell good in the north american market... microsoft hype there. but in japan ps3 still will rule
*
If you did follow all their interview/article. You will notice that microsoft are never confident enough to comment about being the first in japan but only having a larger territory in japan than last gen. They kinda admit it.
Next gen their plan is to gain as much influence as they can in the first attempt (this christmas) in europe/america. Plus the xbox360 give away campaign in US.


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post May 29 2005, 06:19 PM

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Never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down
to his level and beat you with experience.

Never argue with me, I'll drag you down
to my level and beat you with a ba


HEHEHEHE.....
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post May 29 2005, 08:18 PM

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i'll buy console that have those top soccer games on it.
(u guess)
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post May 29 2005, 08:29 PM

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QUOTE(thesexpistols @ May 29 2005, 08:18 PM)
i'll buy console that have those top soccer games on it.
(u guess)
*
haha.. easy
winning eleven ps2!
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post May 30 2005, 12:29 AM

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Hate to reopen the can of worm marked expired.

But just to share my thoughts of the likelihood of "local storage" being cache. First, I do not think that IBM would called cache as local storage. I think local storage is more of a SPE internal RAM. An internal RAM would typically be refered to as a local storage.

Secondly, Having so many SPU units (8 in total based on the diagram), it would mean 256Kx8 L1 cache. A 2MB cache would bump up the price of the PS3 to preposterous level.

But I'm not claiming that the SPE has no L1 cache. On the contrary, I think that we might be looking at a very top level block diagram ( a macro view is you like ) and that the cache (if ever there be one) is embedded into one of this block (probably the SXU).

Again, I stress, this is all speculative. Constructive feedback welcomed.

At the time of writing I've also got this from gamespot:

1 Core, 7 x SPE 3.2GHz (256KB SRAM per SPE), 7 x 128b 128 SIMD GPRs
http://hardware.gamespot.com/Sony-PlayStation-3-15015-S-4-4

SRAM. If this is true, we could safely assert that the local storage is certainly not L1 cache. It could still be L2 cache, but I think it's most likely just that, internal RAM


Also spot this interesting bit after the above edit. On the L2 Cache row has this bit of info:
512KB L2 cache, 256KB per SPE

Yes, it's 1am and I'm still writing this shite.


This post has been edited by ray_: May 30 2005, 01:09 AM
ikanayam
post May 30 2005, 01:32 AM

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QUOTE(ray_ @ May 29 2005, 11:29 AM)
Hate to reopen the can of worm marked expired.

But just to share my thoughts of the likelihood of "local storage" being cache. First, I do not think that IBM would called cache as local storage. I think local storage is more of a SPE internal RAM. An internal RAM would typically be refered to as a local storage.

Secondly, Having so many SPU units (8 in total based on the diagram), it would mean 256Kx8 L1 cache. A 2MB cache would bump up the price of the PS3 to preposterous level.

But I'm not claiming that the SPE has no L1 cache. On the contrary, I think that we might be looking at a very top level block diagram ( a macro view is you like ) and that the cache (if ever there be one) is embedded into one of this block (probably the SXU).

Again, I stress, this is all speculative. Constructive feedback welcomed.

At the time of writing I've also got this from gamespot:

1 Core, 7 x SPE 3.2GHz (256KB SRAM per SPE), 7 x 128b 128 SIMD GPRs
http://hardware.gamespot.com/Sony-PlayStation-3-15015-S-4-4

SRAM. If this is true, we could safely assert that the local storage is certainly not L1 cache. It could still be L2 cache, but I think it's most likely just that, internal RAM


Also spot this interesting bit after the above edit. On the L2 Cache row has this bit of info:
512KB L2 cache, 256KB per SPE

Yes, it's 1am and I'm still writing this shite.

*
Well here's what i think. It's a cache of some sort, call it whatever you want. The purpose of this cache is to provide high bandwith to the SPE units because they are streaming data processors and the initial latency (probably higher than that of a typical L1/L2 cache) will not matter that much because the SPE is a streaming data processor. Look under the definition of "cache", it does not have any specific details about how it should be implemented. Cache and local memory are loosely interchangeable terms.

I believe adding more cache to a CPU is a lot cheaper than adding more logic. Cache is typically densely packed and cheap to manufacture. A 2MB cache on the P4 6xx series does not bump the price up to preposterous levels at all.
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post May 30 2005, 01:37 AM

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QUOTE(ikanayam @ May 30 2005, 01:32 AM)
Well here's what i think. It's a cache of some sort, call it whatever you want. The purpose of this cache is to provide high bandwith to the SPE units because they are streaming data processors and the initial latency (probably higher than that of a typical L1/L2 cache) will not matter that much because the SPE is a streaming data processor. Look under the definition of "cache", it does not have any specific details about how it should be implemented. Cache and local memory are loosely interchangeable terms.

I believe adding more cache to a CPU is a lot cheaper than adding more logic. Cache is typically densely packed and cheap to manufacture. A 2MB cache on the P4 6xx series does not bump the price up to preposterous levels at all.
*
It's too late to write a rebuttal. But do expect one in the morning. smile.gif
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post May 30 2005, 10:18 AM

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QUOTE(ikanayam @ May 30 2005, 01:32 AM)
Well here's what i think. It's a cache of some sort, call it whatever you want. The purpose of this cache is to provide high bandwith to the SPE units because they are streaming data processors and the initial latency (probably higher than that of a typical L1/L2 cache) will not matter that much because the SPE is a streaming data processor. Look under the definition of "cache", it does not have any specific details about how it should be implemented. Cache and local memory are loosely interchangeable terms.

I believe adding more cache to a CPU is a lot cheaper than adding more logic. Cache is typically densely packed and cheap to manufacture. A 2MB cache on the P4 6xx series does not bump the price up to preposterous levels at all.
*
First, let me get to some points:

1) I've suspected that the local storage is indeed not L1 cache.
If the tech. spec. at gamespot is anything to go by, thenI would say that my suspicion is correct. The local storage is infact a L2 cache according to gamespot.

2) I've suspected that the local storage is in fact internal memory.

Again, if gamespot is correct, then I would be wrong. Cell's "Local storage" isn't internal RAM. Although I agree that the line has blurred somewhat. I still think that there's a fundamental difference between RAM (memory) and cache. Cache has additional logic to invalidate, flush and enable/disable it's cells. Also the hybrid set-associative cache is only addressable by the CPU and "associates" each memory region of the cache with an equivalent region of the external RAM. Memory works differently to cache.

I do not think that cache is cheap. Cache, especially fast L1/L2 cache running at core frequency, are really expensive to make, but it does gets cheaper as the technology improves. That is why there is so very little of cache RAM available on all off-the-shelf processors. If you goggle "cache" and click through the result, it would almost always be tagged with the word "expensive".

Although it might be densely packed, cache would still take a large portion of the die. The Cell has a 512K L2 cache. Look at how much space it requires on the die layout.




silkworm
post May 30 2005, 10:27 AM

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QUOTE(ray_ @ May 30 2005, 12:29 AM)
Hate to reopen the can of worm marked expired.

But just to share my thoughts of the likelihood of "local storage" being cache. First, I do not think that IBM would called cache as local storage. I think local storage is more of a SPE internal RAM. An internal RAM would typically be refered to as a local storage.

Secondly, Having so many SPU units (8 in total based on the diagram), it would mean 256Kx8 L1 cache. A 2MB cache would bump up the price of the PS3 to preposterous level.

But I'm not claiming that the SPE has no L1 cache. On the contrary, I think that we might be looking at a very top level block diagram ( a macro view is you like ) and that the cache (if ever there be one) is embedded into one of this block (probably the SXU).

Again, I stress, this is all speculative. Constructive feedback welcomed.

At the time of writing I've also got this from gamespot:

1 Core, 7 x SPE 3.2GHz (256KB SRAM per SPE), 7 x 128b 128 SIMD GPRs
http://hardware.gamespot.com/Sony-PlayStation-3-15015-S-4-4

SRAM. If this is true, we could safely assert that the local storage is certainly not L1 cache. It could still be L2 cache, but I think it's most likely just that, internal RAM


Also spot this interesting bit after the above edit. On the L2 Cache row has this bit of info:
512KB L2 cache, 256KB per SPE

Yes, it's 1am and I'm still writing this shite.

*
First, let's share what google brought me this morning: microprocessor report article

In that report, it is written that SPEs do not have cache, and we can infer that the LS is indeed not an L1 cache. But why do you have this fixation on L1 anyway? wink.gif

The LS is SRAM, it sits right next to the SPE's logic and execution units. With that kind of placement it probably runs at the same clock frequency (or perhaps matched with the pipeline latency for read/writes to save power?) That's probably all that the LS have in common with cache.

I've also mentioned earlier that cache is only effective when there is locality to be exploited. When there is no locality, cache misses are so expensive that it's better not to have them there in the first place. Cache adds an element of unpredictability to programming; Cache misses are inevitable and the programmer has no direct control over when they happen. This sort of unpredictability is a no-no in realtime applications. Graphics rendering in games can be classified as realtime, because they have a 1/60 second deadline for all their processing.

The LS of each SPE can be mapped into system memory. Which means that LS is visible to the programmer. A cache is invisible to the programmer, it has no implicit memory address range.

After all this discussion on the SPE, we seem to have left out the PPE which is a traditional 64-bit processor, and has its own L1 data and instruction cache.
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post May 30 2005, 10:44 AM

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QUOTE(silkworm @ May 30 2005, 10:27 AM)
First, let's share what google brought me this morning: microprocessor report article

In that report, it is written that SPEs do not have cache, and we can infer that the LS is indeed not an L1 cache. But why do you have this fixation on L1 anyway? wink.gif

The LS is SRAM, it sits right next to the SPE's logic and execution units. With that kind of placement it probably runs at the same clock frequency (or perhaps matched with the pipeline latency for read/writes to save power?) That's probably all that the LS have in common with cache.

I've also mentioned earlier that cache is only effective when there is locality to be exploited. When there is no locality, cache misses are so expensive that it's better not to have them there in the first place. Cache adds an element of unpredictability to programming; Cache misses are inevitable and the programmer has no direct control over when they happen. This sort of unpredictability is a no-no in realtime applications. Graphics rendering in games can be classified as realtime, because they have a 1/60 second deadline for all their processing.

The LS of each SPE can be mapped into system memory. Which means that LS is visible to the programmer. A cache is invisible to the programmer, it has no implicit memory address range.

After all this discussion on the SPE, we seem to have left out the PPE which is a traditional 64-bit processor, and has its own L1 data and instruction cache.
*
Again, thanks for the wonderful link. thumbup.gif

My fixation on the L1 cache was due to your claim that "Local storage" was infact a L1 cache. Which has now been proven to be incorrect. I think you should give me that much. smile.gif

I share some of your argument on my most recent post (eg. the fact that cache is not directly addressable by the user). Please read em' and see if you'd agree.

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post May 30 2005, 11:36 AM

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QUOTE(ray_ @ May 30 2005, 10:44 AM)
Again, thanks for the wonderful link.  thumbup.gif

My fixation on the L1 cache was due to your claim that "Local storage" was infact a L1 cache. Which has now been proven to be incorrect. I think you should give me that much.  smile.gif

I share some of your argument on my most recent post (eg. the fact that cache is not directly addressable by the user). Please read em' and see if you'd agree.
*
For context:
QUOTE(me)
Furthermore, each SPE has 256K of "Local Storage", which is effectively a Von Neumann style L1 cache.

Fed my own medicine, gah! sweat.gif In hindsight that was a rather naive conclusion based on the observation that the LS consists of SRAM (as are all low-level caches), is geographically close to the SPU and (maybe) runs at core frequency. If I wanted to cover my backside, I could retort that by using the word "effectively", I wasn't too convinced of it being L1 cache even back then, but that would make me look small, so I won't. laugh.gif

So, can we safely agree that the Local Store memory of 256K on each SPE is neither L1 nor L2 cache, and doesn't need to be?

WRT to cache implementation and cost:

The fastest caches are implemented in SRAM, which iirc, take 6 transistors to implement a single cell. They are certainly not as dense as DRAM. A common convention for calculating gate counts is to take the number of transistors to implement a NAND gate, in CMOS processes, that is 4 transistors. That gives us a 3:2 transistor ratio, ie for every 2 SRAM cells we could have had 3 logic cells. Let's see you guys bake your noodles on that tid-bit. smile.gif

I'd like to add that n-way set associativity isn't the only way to make a cache. Direct mapping does not require the sort of logic complexity that we see in the L2 in the die photos. Sure, nobody wants to use direct mapped caches anymore today, but computer architecture trends tend to make a full circle every couple of decades. We're seeing stack machines and VMs making a re-appearance lately even though they were supposed to have died off in the 70s and 80s. That said, we should not write off any technique even though it looks sub-obtimal based on today's performance metrics/requirements.

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post May 30 2005, 11:53 AM

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Reading the document, it looks like the SPE has no cache at all. And that the local storage is rather quite simplistic in design. And also that Gamespot is inaccurate in labeling local storage as L2 cache.

I think here's how it would work:

- Prior to running a specific process on the SPE, all instructions and data required for the process would need to be copied to the SPE local storage via the PPE MMU. This should be done either autonomously by a robust compiler (supplied by the PS3 dev. kit) or by the programmer (gasp...).

There are no mentions of the speed at which the SRAM is running. But since SRAM are traditionally asynchronous, there would be wait cycles required for read and write accesses.

There are also no mentions on whether the SPE DMA could directly address external memory space or I/O address space to transfer instruction or data from external memory or I/O memory mapped peripherals to the local store.

This post has been edited by ray_: May 30 2005, 11:58 AM
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post May 30 2005, 03:38 PM

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QUOTE(silkworm @ May 30 2005, 11:36 AM)
For context:
QUOTE(me)
Furthermore, each SPE has 256K of "Local Storage", which is effectively a Von Neumann style L1 cache.

Fed my own medicine, gah! sweat.gif In hindsight that was a rather naive conclusion based on the observation that the LS consists of SRAM (as are all low-level caches), is geographically close to the SPU and (maybe) runs at core frequency. If I wanted to cover my backside, I could retort that by using the word "effectively", I wasn't too convinced of it being L1 cache even back then, but that would make me look small, so I won't. laugh.gif

So, can we safely agree that the Local Store memory of 256K on each SPE is neither L1 nor L2 cache, and doesn't need to be?

WRT to cache implementation and cost:

The fastest caches are implemented in SRAM, which iirc, take 6 transistors to implement a single cell. They are certainly not as dense as DRAM. A common convention for calculating gate counts is to take the number of transistors to implement a NAND gate, in CMOS processes, that is 4 transistors. That gives us a 3:2 transistor ratio, ie for every 2 SRAM cells we could have had 3 logic cells. Let's see you guys bake your noodles on that tid-bit. smile.gif

I'd like to add that n-way set associativity isn't the only way to make a cache. Direct mapping does not require the sort of logic complexity that we see in the L2 in the die photos. Sure, nobody wants to use direct mapped caches anymore today, but computer architecture trends tend to make a full circle every couple of decades. We're seeing stack machines and VMs making a re-appearance lately even though they were supposed to have died off in the 70s and 80s. That said, we should not write off any technique even though it looks sub-obtimal based on today's performance metrics/requirements.
*
thumbup.gif next gen consoles discussion + next gen pc discussion thumbup.gif
bujanglapok
post May 30 2005, 03:42 PM

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i prefer Sony

"like.no.other"

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ikanayam
post May 30 2005, 06:41 PM

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QUOTE(silkworm @ May 29 2005, 10:36 PM)
WRT to cache implementation and cost:

The fastest caches are implemented in SRAM, which iirc, take 6 transistors to implement a single cell. They are certainly not as dense as DRAM. A common convention for calculating gate counts is to take the number of transistors to implement a NAND gate, in CMOS processes, that is 4 transistors. That gives us a 3:2 transistor ratio, ie for every 2 SRAM cells we could have had 3 logic cells. Let's see you guys bake your noodles on that tid-bit. smile.gif
*
ok but a single NAND gate is not really useful. It takes many such gates to make a unit that is capable of doing an operation. These gates have to be wired up to each other. And usually logic is less consistent in terms of size and shape, which makes it take up more die area per transistor compared to SRAM cells. Die area = manufacturing cost.

Just look at a die photo of the Northwood CPU. The L2 cache alone is practically half of the total transistor count (25.2 million transistors out of 55 million, 46%). Yet it takes nowhere near half of the die area on the chip.
prazole
post May 31 2005, 01:15 AM

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- Famitsu Weekly has conducted a next generation reader survey, to see which console system the readers are most interested.

Most Interested Next Generation Console
1. Nintendo Revolution - 42.2%
2. Sony PlayStation 3 - 39.8%
3. Microsoft Xbox 360 - 18.0%

Why do you like Revolution?
- Compact design, typical Nintendo style
- Able to download Famicom (NES), SFC (SNES) and Nintendo 64 games
- Possible innovative / new designs in Revolution
- Confidence in the hardware

Why do you like PlayStation 3?
- Outstanding technical specifications, standout against other next generation consoles
- Downward compatibility with PSone and PlayStation 2
- Cell processor and Bluray support are unique to the console
- Like the design of the console (but the controller design is crazy)

Why do you like Xbox 360?
- Developer support is splendid, especial people like Akira Toriyama and Sakaguchi.
- Square Enix supports the console
- Positive console design, color, technical specs and software lineup
- Console can stand vertically



link=http://www.the-magicbox.com/gaming.htm

looks like nintendo really has very strong influence in japan compared to ps3
ccb
post May 31 2005, 01:23 AM

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looks like xbox is still doing not so good in japan
SUSMatrix
post May 31 2005, 10:26 AM

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QUOTE(ccb @ May 31 2005, 01:23 AM)
looks like xbox is still doing not so good in japan
*
Readers polls means nothing. After 1 year of the console launch, then you can gauge whether it's a success or a bomb. Despite all the "readers vote" for Revolution, there's almost without a doubt the PS3 will outsells it.

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post May 31 2005, 11:21 AM

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QUOTE(ccb @ May 31 2005, 01:23 AM)
looks like xbox is still doing not so good in japan
*
oooooh, MS IS DOOMED!!! tongue.gif

i agree wif Matrix, reader polls means diddly squat~

besides, i think even wif 18%, MS should be more than happy wif dat liao... if its achievable that is tongue.gif
ccb
post May 31 2005, 11:26 AM

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well,reader poll can count as early indicator,but i agree with 18%,thats higher then xbox
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post May 31 2005, 12:26 PM

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QUOTE(prazole @ May 29 2005, 08:29 PM)
haha.. easy
winning eleven ps2!
*
Beeeep!!! Wrong answer!

Winning Eleven is also known as Pro Evolution soccer for the Western market and is available for the XBOX and PC (but the PC might not have latest version).

prazole
post May 31 2005, 03:09 PM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ May 31 2005, 12:26 PM)
Beeeep!!! Wrong answer!

Winning Eleven is also known as Pro Evolution soccer for the Western market and is available for the XBOX and PC (but the PC might not have latest version).
*
u ask him and see...

readers poll might means little now.. but it is an early indication of what the gamers think after e3 and stuff..
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post Jun 1 2005, 10:33 AM

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Next-gen leaders talk about their consoles
Microsoft senior vice president and chief Xbox officer Robert J. Bach, Sony Computer Entertainment president Ken Kutaragi, and Nintendo president Satoru Iwata.

Interesting read i must say...
ccb
post Jun 1 2005, 10:50 AM

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i saw that but i wonder how does those 3 people sit together even tough they are rival
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post Jun 1 2005, 02:02 PM

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QUOTE(silkworm @ May 30 2005, 11:36 AM)
So, can we safely agree that the Local Store memory of 256K on each SPE is neither L1 nor L2 cache, and doesn't need to be?
I do agree that cache miss is expensive. But it must be said that the SPE would still be benefiting from some form of cache implemented sensibly.

We all agreed that there's no need for a D-cache. But adding an I-cache could enhance the throughput of the SPE based upon these assumption:

1) I've never implemented or seen a graphic processing algorithm before, but I would assume that it would need to process acquired buffered real-time data (either acquired through the CPU or DMA). Since the SPE is not designed to have a resident RTOS, instead of having multiple tasks waiting on mutexes/semaphores synchronized to the acquisition of these data, it would most probably be synchronized to an IRQ. The acquired real-time data should be synchronous, thus the IRQs should be fired periodically and at deterministic intervals. With a 256K of internal storage, there should be minimal cache miss (cache fill) if the cache is large enough (16k?) and has a suitable block and set distribution, and the executable image has a small enough footprint.

2) Unlike DSP required for network protocol processing, which branches frequently (to service hardware interrupt, software interrupt or task switch), the access pattern of a graphic processing application should be more predictable. Thus could be sensibly distributed and optimized to minimized cache miss. The CPM module of the PowerPC would be used for protocol handling.

I've made I-cache evaluation on certain DSP. And I must say, even with large executable image and unpredictable access pattern, we could still register some throughput improvement compared to accessing plain old RAM (although it must be said that as the size increases and pattern becomes unpredictable, the access time grows drastically). Now, compare running code at RAM speed most of the time and running code at core speed sometime and RAM speed at others, it's not hard to see which is better.

My 2 cents.
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post Jun 1 2005, 06:25 PM

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First off, some more nice nice PDF files. And another one.. These are the papers that were being analysed seperately by Real World Technologies and ArsTechnica. Both authors were probably also privy to other material, having attended the ISSCC talks in person. The arstechnica article, in particular, covers what we had been debating about previously, namely the role of the LS in replacing L1.

I was going to write a rebuttal to your points, but I've had a long day at work and I badly need a shower. The documents should keep you occupied for the rest of the time though. I'll get round to rebutting tomorrow, if still necessary.

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post Jun 1 2005, 11:26 PM

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QUOTE(silkworm @ Jun 1 2005, 06:25 PM)
First off, some more nice nice PDF files. And another one.. These are the papers that were being analysed seperately by Real World Technologies and ArsTechnica. Both authors were probably also privy to other material, having attended the ISSCC talks in person. The arstechnica article, in particular, covers what we had been debating about previously, namely the role of the LS in replacing L1.

I was going to write a rebuttal to your points, but I've had a long day at work and I badly need a shower. The documents should keep you occupied for the rest of the time though. I'll get round to rebutting tomorrow, if still necessary.
*
Sorry but could only skim through the ars-technica article. I could only see that this could be a non-issue if the 256K LS is synchronized to core frequency but has none of the typical cache function, as stated in the article, such as tag and cache coherency/snooping logic (i.e. having the speed of a L1 cache but not the redundancies associated with it). Can we assume that much?

EDIT: Nevermind. Got my answer. No assumption required. The 256K is indeed synchronized at core frequency. Now, that's one %@^&#^ SRAM.

EDIT2: There's a fundamental flaw in my argument. Nobody caches internal RAM. Now let me wallow in my pool of ignorance. (* splash..splash)

This post has been edited by ray_: Jun 2 2005, 04:06 PM
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post Jun 3 2005, 11:22 AM

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Ars Technica has another in-depth article on the Xbox 360, this time focusing on the CPU. Thanks to Evil Avatar for the link.
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post Jun 3 2005, 12:50 PM

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QUOTE(H@H@ @ Jun 3 2005, 11:22 AM)
Ars Technica has another in-depth article on the Xbox 360, this time focusing on the CPU. Thanks to Evil Avatar for the link.
*
Great read and good post. thumbup.gif

Now for the customary bait to lure massive tech. flames:

Comments on my part:
1) If I'm not mistaken, branch prediction would never work for IRQ. Thus with PPE's deep 21 stages pipeline, there should be much pipeline stall (pipeline flush) if the PPE were to run interrupt prone tasks (eg. protocol related, TDMA...etc.). The XBox would need to handle a couple of network related processing such as WIFI and Ethernet, presumably using dedicated hardwares on the CPM module.
2) Another one of those single-threaded task would be this:
while(1)
{
printf("Hello 4TW\n");
}
But I do not think noobs would be programming for large gaming companies.

Anyone know if the MPx or the 60x bus is used as inter-processor bus? And if there's an internal RAM on each PPE like the DPRAM in previous PowerPC?
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post Jun 3 2005, 12:58 PM

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QUOTE(ray_ @ Jun 2 2005, 11:50 PM)
Great read and good post. thumbup.gif

Now for the customary bait to lure massive tech. flames:

Comments on my part:
1) If I'm not mistaken, branch prediction would never work for IRQ. Thus with PPE's deep 21 stages pipeline, there should be much pipeline stall (pipeline flush) if the PPE were to run interrupt prone tasks (eg. protocol related, TDMA...etc.). The XBox would need to handle a couple of network related processing such as WIFI and Ethernet, presumably using dedicated hardwares on the CPM module.
2) Another one of those single-threaded task would be this:
  while(1)
  {
  printf("Hello 4TW\n");
  }
But I do not think noobs would be programming for large gaming companies.

Anyone know if the MPx or the 60x bus is used as inter-processor bus? And if there's an internal RAM on each PPE like the DPRAM in previous PowerPC?
*
The PPE has 32k/32k L1 cache and 512kB L2 cache. Is that what you mean by internal RAM?

And yes i believe it will have hardware to handle networking and such things.
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post Jun 3 2005, 01:02 PM

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QUOTE(ikanayam @ Jun 3 2005, 12:58 PM)
The PPE has 32k/32k L1 cache and 512kB L2 cache. Is that what you mean by internal RAM?

And yes i believe it will have hardware to handle networking and such things.
*
Hey, ikanayam. Yep, there are caches. But I was looking for internal RAM such as that on the SPE. smile.gif


ikanayam
post Jun 3 2005, 01:10 PM

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QUOTE(ray_ @ Jun 3 2005, 12:02 AM)
Hey, ikanayam. Yep, there are caches. But I was looking for internal RAM such as that on the SPE. smile.gif
*
Nah, it does not have internal RAM like the SPE. Cache would serve a CPU better. The SPE is different because all it is supposed to do is crunch data, it's not made to work with many things a general purpose CPU has to deal with. The internal RAM on the SPE sounds to me like a dumbed down cache from what i've read.
ray_
post Jun 3 2005, 01:26 PM

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QUOTE(ikanayam @ Jun 3 2005, 01:10 PM)
Nah, it does not have internal RAM like the SPE. Cache would serve a CPU better. The SPE is different because all it is supposed to do is crunch data, it's not made to work with many things a general purpose CPU has to deal with. The internal RAM on the SPE sounds to me like a dumbed down cache from what i've read.
*
Despite popular believes, most processor has a small internal RAM. Usually either a single-ported (single access) or dual-ported (dual access) one. This is in addition to the L1 and L2 cache. These caches were meant to cache slow external SRAM or DRAM and were never designed to cache internal RAM. The logic for this is simple, internal RAM are fast running RAM usually synchronized at core speed. smile.gif

EDIT: There's a high probability that the PPE would have an internal RAM. But like always, it always bad to assume and good to find out. biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by ray_: Jun 3 2005, 01:29 PM
ikanayam
post Jun 3 2005, 01:28 PM

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QUOTE(ray_ @ Jun 3 2005, 12:26 AM)
Despite popular believes, most processor has a small internal RAM. Usually either a single-ported (single access) or dual-ported (dual access) one. This is in addition to the L1 and L2 cache. These caches were meant to cache slow external SRAM or DRAM and were never designed to cache internal RAM. The logic for this is simple, internal RAM are fast running RAM usually synchronized at core speed. smile.gif
*
Hm... any examples of processors that use such internal RAM?
ray_
post Jun 3 2005, 01:59 PM

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QUOTE(ikanayam @ Jun 3 2005, 01:28 PM)
Hm... any examples of processors that use such internal RAM?
*
Just google:
Microprocessor "internal RAM"

The result can be overwhelming. smile.gif

But it must be said that most off-the-shelf processor does not have an internal RAM and relies heavily on cache. But processor that powers PC/Mac represents just a small percentage of the total processor used in the world, most of them in embedded systems.

Top of the list are some of the architecture that uses internal RAM:
1) OMAP
2) MCore
3) 68k
4) variants of PowerPCs

This post has been edited by ray_: Jun 3 2005, 02:00 PM
ray_
post Jun 3 2005, 02:35 PM

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Surprise find in embedded.com:

EET: Will game-title development also be a challenge for such a high-performance processor?

Kutaragi: It should be the reverse. I want it to be the reverse. The greater the limitations of the hardware, the more labor is needed for software development. With earlier hardware, direct access [from a game program to machine-language-level] hardware or some tricky programming was required to pull off the full performance.

The PS2, for example, made full use of the semiconductor technology available at the time, but only a software effort on the part of the game developers enabled high performance titles like Gran Turismo [a realistic car racing game that has sold more than 43 million copies worldwide]. The more closely they accessed the hardware, the higher the performance they achieved.

Cell is not like that. Application programs can no longer directly access the hardware; instead they will have to be written in high-level, object-oriented language. That was done for security reasons: If processors of high performance and wide bandwidth like the Cell were linked together without sufficient security, a worldwide system crash could occur with one attack.

The big feature of the processor is that multiple operating systems run on it. From the beginning, I wanted multiple operating systems to run on the processor simultaneously.

The Cell processor has a kernel called Level 0 at the bottom. This level is not disclosed and is kept secure. Level 1 handles operations close to the kernel, such as scheduling, the real-time kernel and device drivers. Level 2, which we call the guest OS layer, is for general-purpose operating systems such as Linux and PC OSes and operating systems for the Playstation. All operating systems and applications run on Level 2 or higher. Programmers can concentrate on their targeted area of concern without worrying about other operating systems.


Read the rest here:
http://www.embedded.com/showArticle.jhtml?...cleID=163702001
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post Jun 3 2005, 02:46 PM

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QUOTE(ray_ @ Jun 3 2005, 01:59 PM)
Top of the list are some of the architecture that uses internal RAM:
1) OMAP
2) MCore
3) 68k
4) variants of PowerPCs
*
Sorry, those are pretty bad examples. Looks to me like you're mixing up microcontrollers, which are actually systems-on-a-chip.

OMAP
Uses ARM7/9/11 cores. ARMs are traditionally cacheless.

MCORE and MC68HCxx
Again, the RAM is not internal to the actual processing core itself. The 68HCxx are 8-bit (`05, `08) or 16-bit (`11, `12) parts.

Same goes with PowerPC, the PPC4xx cores were licensed out by IBM to other SoC houses, including Freescale, for use in embedded systems.

There are several pretty obvious differences between these chips and the PPE that's being discussed. Most of the time these ICs are self-sufficient. Program code is stored on, and run directly from ROM/EEPROM. Unless they are performing exceptionally data hungry tasks, the internal SRAM is all the memory they will ever use. In such cases, cache is largely unnecessary.

Embedded processors have not breached the 1GHz operating frequency barrier just yet. The PPE core may be integrated into a microcontroller, someday (if ever the need arises for a >GHz mcu, [shudder])

-Edit- Rather than to leave it hanging just like that, a conclusion should be in order:
The PPE is a processor core. Microcontrollers like the examples given are built around cores.

This post has been edited by silkworm: Jun 3 2005, 02:59 PM
ray_
post Jun 3 2005, 03:29 PM

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Bait works. smile.gif

These are 32bit processors. The term SoC and processor are interchangeable.

QUOTE(silkworm @ Jun 3 2005, 02:46 PM)
Uses ARM7/9/11 cores. ARMs are traditionally cacheless.
*
Hence my point.

QUOTE(silkworm @ Jun 3 2005, 02:46 PM)
Again, the RAM is not internal to the actual processing core itself. The 68HCxx are 8-bit (`05, `08) or 16-bit (`11, `12) parts.
*
Last I've check, the 68k is a 32bit microcontroller.

QUOTE(silkworm @ Jun 3 2005, 02:46 PM)
There are several pretty obvious differences between these chips and the PPE that's being discussed. Most of the time these ICs are self-sufficient. Program code is stored on, and run directly from ROM/EEPROM. Unless they are performing exceptionally data hungry tasks, the internal SRAM is all the memory they will ever use. In such cases, cache is largely unnecessary.
*
I don't think cell-phones or PDAs are running from ROM/EEPROM or just internal RAM. Modern RTOS neccessitates some form of external RAM.

Now you could argue that PPE processor core is different to microcontroller in embedded systems. But you must realize that early iterations of the computer are infact embedded systems. They are intricately linked as demonstrated by the use of internal RAM on the SPE.

QUOTE(silkworm @ Jun 3 2005, 02:46 PM)
Rather than to leave it hanging just like that, a conclusion should be in order:
The PPE is a processor core. Microcontrollers like the examples given are built around cores.
*
EDIT: I see where you're going with this one. You're saying, the inclusion of an internal RAM into the processing core is different from the inclusion of internal RAM to the processor (SoC). Strictly speaking, you're right. And these aren't the best examples. Infact I was assuming that the PPE is an SoC.

Now, I could have covered my hinny by saying that I was giving examples of "processor's with internal RAM" and did not mentioned anything about processing core. But that would make me look bad. So I won't (* now where did I read that before).



This post has been edited by ray_: Jun 3 2005, 04:28 PM
silkworm
post Jun 3 2005, 04:39 PM

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QUOTE(ray_ @ Jun 3 2005, 03:29 PM)
Bait works. smile.gif
Augh!

QUOTE
Last I've check, the 68k is a 32bit microcontroller.
The last of the 68K series was the 68332, after which Motorola/Freescale evolved the architecture into the ColdFire series. You just used "68HC". The 8 and 16 bit freescale MCU families are commonly called by "HCxx", eg, HC05, HC12, etc.

QUOTE
I don't think cell-phones or PDAs are running from ROM/EEPROM or just internal RAM. Modern RTOS neccessitates some form of external RAM.
A RTOS only needs as much RAM as necessary for a process table and storing context information (Instruction pointer, stack pointer, flags, GP Registers) for each process. Applications code can still be loaded direct from non-volatile storage like Flash ROM. Application heap space may be in external RAM. I admit we are seeing more lower end phones being able to run user installed programs, namely java games, but for the bare essential workings of a phone, larger RAM is unnecessary.

QUOTE
Now you could argue that PPE processor core is different to microcontroller in embedded systems. But you must realize that early iterations of the computer are infact embedded systems. They are intricately linked as demonstrated by the use of internal RAM on the SPE.
True enough, early personal computers and embedded systems were indistinguishable from each other. But as soon as miniaturisation kicked in, their paths diverged. Microprocessors packed all their peripherals like ADCs, DACs, timers, counters, RAM and ROM into a single package, while general purpose processors today are just cores with one or two levels of cache and buttloads of address/data/IO pins.

The word "embedded" projects an image of permanence, ie the function of the system is unchanged throughout its working life. A general purpose computer on the other hand is transient, the user chooses what he wants to do with the computer by running different application programs. Embedded systems run solely on firmware. A PC BIOS is indeed a form of firmware, but it only bootstraps the system and the rest is up to the user (yes, even an OS is optional).
ray_
post Jun 3 2005, 05:27 PM

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Awesome rebuttal. But have to explain 1 point and disagree with another. smile.gif

QUOTE(silkworm @ Jun 3 2005, 04:39 PM)
The last of the 68K series was the 68332, after which Motorola/Freescale evolved the architecture into the ColdFire series. You just used "68HC". The 8 and 16 bit freescale MCU families are commonly called by "HCxx", eg, HC05, HC12, etc.
*
Yes, I've edited it for correctness.

QUOTE(silkworm @ Jun 3 2005, 04:39 PM)
A RTOS only needs as much RAM as necessary for a process table and storing context information (Instruction pointer, stack pointer, flags, GP Registers) for each process. Applications code can still be loaded direct from non-volatile storage like Flash ROM. Application heap space may be in external RAM. I admit we are seeing more lower end phones being able to run user installed programs, namely java games, but for the bare essential workings of a phone, larger RAM is unnecessary.
*
Even with everything statically binded, modern function-packed tech. gadgets (qualified as embedded system), would still be requiring some sort of external RAM. You do not need to have a cell-phone that runs Java games to be needing an external RAM, the cell-phone's core functionality itself is sufficient enough to be requiring one.

In a typical cell-phone, you would have RTOS or some form of scheduler, disportionate amount of interrupt sources with corresponding amount of service routines, codes to handle signalling, codes to handle ergonomic, low-level hardware drivers, numerous different level of abstract interfaces (POSIX...etc), DSP algorithm, and huge amount of temporary storage required for real-time data. These translate to a large amount of volatile memory real estates required.

I think you would find most of the paraphernalia running on 32bit core, requiring an external RAM. Now that's lots.
ray_
post Jun 3 2005, 06:59 PM

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Here's the bomb.

Consoles are traditionally embedded systems. With the introduction of the PS3 and the cell technology, Sony wants them to be called "computers":

Now there are numerous definition for embedded system. Just goggling it returns this:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&lr=&c...Embedded+system

Some of the descriptions are ridiculous ("four-digit dates or leap days??"). But some do represent the concept of an embedded system and even fit the bill for our next generation consoles.

But to me, I've always identified a system as an embedded system if there's a need for a cross-compiler to build an application that runs on that system (tool association??). It's a weird definition, but I'll stick to that. Computer lets you write and run application locally in its native language, but embedded system requires a cross-compiler to translates it into target readable instructions and be transfered and loaded into the target's memory space using specialized tools.

With that said, it would qualify consoles as embedded systems. Unless of course, Sony lets its tool chains run natively on the PS3.

The line has blurred so much that it's almost indistinguishable. Who knows, H@H@ might need to move "Console Couch" back to "Computer" and back again several times. Now, would you call these next generation consoles, computers or embedded systems?

This post has been edited by ray_: Jun 3 2005, 07:01 PM
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post Jun 3 2005, 07:14 PM

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i will call them as computer
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post Jun 4 2005, 12:17 AM

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QUOTE(ray_ @ Jun 3 2005, 05:27 PM)
Even with everything statically binded, modern function-packed tech. gadgets (qualified as embedded system), would still be requiring some sort of external RAM. You do not need to have a cell-phone that runs Java games to be needing an external RAM, the cell-phone's core functionality itself is sufficient enough to be requiring one.

In a typical cell-phone, you would have RTOS or some form of scheduler, disportionate amount of interrupt sources with corresponding amount of service routines, codes to handle signalling, codes to handle ergonomic, low-level hardware drivers, numerous different level of abstract interfaces (POSIX...etc), DSP algorithm, and huge amount of temporary storage required for real-time data. These translate to a large amount of volatile memory real estates required.

I think you would find most of the paraphernalia running on 32bit core, requiring an external RAM. Now that's lots.
*

OK, I may have underestimated the RAM usage required in the case of a cellphone design, particularly the consumption during baseband processing and the protocol stack. Probably has to do with me playing with 8-bitters too long, I'm too used to offloading the heavy stuff onto ASICs. whistling.gif

QUOTE(ray_ @ Jun 3 2005, 06:59 PM)
Here's the bomb.

Consoles are traditionally embedded systems. With the introduction of the PS3 and the cell technology, Sony wants them to be called "computers":
*

Sony makes no pretense about their PlayStation platform being "computers", after all the division that makes PlayStations is called Sony Computer Entertainment Inc.

QUOTE
Now there are numerous definition for embedded system. Just goggling it returns this:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&lr=&c...Embedded+system

Some of the descriptions are ridiculous ("four-digit dates or leap days??"). But some do represent the concept of an embedded system and even fit the bill for our next generation consoles.

There isn't any hard definition of what makes an embedded system. If it has a processor in it, it could be an embedded system. Even a regular PC could be pressed into service as an embedded system, which happens quite often in industrial environments such as production lines.

My personal definition of an embedded system is a system that performs a function, and from the moment it turns on until it turns off, that function does not change fundamentally. A cellphone is an embedded system, because once you turn it on you expect it to function as a phone. Sure you may play games on a cellphone, use it as an organizer or alarm clock, even browse the internet and send e-mails. But when a call comes in, you can still answer it.

QUOTE(ray_ @ Jun 3 2005, 06:59 PM)
But to me, I've always identified a system as an embedded system if there's a need for a cross-compiler to build an application that runs on that system (tool association??). It's a weird definition, but I'll stick to that. Computer lets you write and run application locally in its native language, but embedded system requires a cross-compiler to translates it into target readable instructions and be transfered and loaded into the target's memory space using specialized tools.
Quite a logical definition, but perhaps a bit narrow. For physically small or resource limited systems, this rings true. However, once certain criteria of performance (CPU/RAM) and user interface are met, an embedded system is entirely capable of self-hosting its development environment. For instance, one needs a decent method of character input, a screen that displays a reasonable amount of text, and storage for the source files and compilation tools. My example of the "embedded PC" above could be one such system.

QUOTE
With that said, it would qualify consoles as embedded systems. Unless of course, Sony lets its tool chains run natively on the PS3.
PS2 development is done on what is basically a beefed up version of the retail PS2, running linux. I expect the production versions of the PS3 development kit to be more of the same.

QUOTE
The line has blurred so much that it's almost indistinguishable. Who knows, H@H@ might need to move "Console Couch" back to "Computer" and back again several times. Now, would you call these next generation consoles, computers or embedded systems?
*

Phew at last we're getting back on topic. I'll call them "computer-based entertainment systems". This is not a cop-out. The purpose of a console system is to entertain you. For the moment it means games, but it's recently expanded in scope to cover other forms of electronic entertainment, chiefly movies and music. Stuff like Xbox Live expands it some more by adding a social element. But the one thing you will not find running on a console is a spreadsheet or word-processor. So that strikes it out as a "computer" in the classic sense. You're not going to be calculating the effects of a nuclear explosion, or predict the weather (no matter how much Sony insists you could), so that doesn't make it a "super computer" either. You will be having a good time, (at least the game developers and console manufacturers hope so), or otherwise generally entertained . That's what matters.

Those of you who are still with me up to this point will note that this conforms with my definition of an embedded system too. So what. Bring on the games.
H@H@
post Jun 4 2005, 12:24 AM

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Did someone call me?

An embedded system != Personal Computer
A phone is an example of an embedded system. It is basically a system with a very specific purpose with very little options in terms of modifications (Not customization mind you)

This is what I figure is an embedded system based on a short analysis I did on Symbian for an assignment.

And the Computer section is for Personal Computers only... If it included embedded systems as well, half of everything in the Special Interest section would end up in there as well.



ray_
post Jun 6 2005, 12:05 AM

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QUOTE(silkworm @ Jun 4 2005, 12:17 AM)
Quite a logical definition, but perhaps a bit narrow. For physically small or resource limited systems, this rings true. However, once certain criteria of performance (CPU/RAM) and user interface are met, an embedded system is entirely capable of self-hosting its development environment. For instance, one needs a decent method of character input, a screen that displays a reasonable amount of text, and storage for the source files and compilation tools.  My example of the "embedded PC" above could be one such system.
*
The more I think of the term "embedded PC", the more it sounds like an oxymoron. biggrin.gif Production lines do have systems doing specialized function. But they'd probably have a few specialized HW and real-time constraints, and thus would be suitably associated to embedded system rather than PC. They could probably be reconfigured to run spreadsheets, but they wouldn't do it as well.

Having written my version of what constitutes an embedded system, I was reminded of the Agilent Logic Analyzer that sits at my cube not so long ago. It's an embedded system no doubt, but it has also a Linux kernel and thus could build and run application on board.

I guess there isn't one all encompassing definition for an embedded system. But the concensus seems to be that the next gen. consoles would still be firmly rooted as embedded systems, until they start sprouting spreadsheets and word processors (i.e. be capable of general purpose computing).

And no H@H@, don't move Adidas shoes to computer. smile.gif
ikanayam
post Jun 6 2005, 03:48 AM

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QUOTE(ray_ @ Jun 5 2005, 11:05 AM)
I guess there isn't one all encompassing definition for an embedded system. But the concensus seems to be that the next gen. consoles would still be firmly rooted as embedded systems, until they start sprouting spreadsheets and word processors (i.e. be capable of general purpose computing).
*
Yes, the console itself may be considered an embedded system. But the CPU cores used are general purpose cores. They could be used in servers or desktop computers if someone wanted to do it.
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post Jun 13 2005, 09:36 AM

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Oooi...why no debate here last few days one?? Must be running out of rumours and news and steams liao...

btw, to all those techie gurus, i just wanna ask this:

Why do you think the PS3 CELL has 1 "redundant SPE" and runs 25GFlops(theorotically) less?? IMO, redundant means FAULTY. SONY must be having headache trying to get enough good yield to get all 8 SPE working and thus probably getting a high % of literally.."half baked"..sillicons with one SPE still "uncooked"(or toasted...whichever u prefer...hee-hee).

I remember previously that SONY mentioned that the CELL will not be ready in time for the PS3, but obviously they squeeze the chip development schedule ahead to make the CELL ready for the PS3, but in turn have to sacrifice some time to further fine tune and improve the design and also the time needed for the manufacturing process to get mature to have high % of good yield.

So their best bet would be going for 7 SPE, which in their opinion is achievable without throwing away too many CELL chips (those < 7 SPE working).

Maybe a year or two later, they'll have a good enough manufacturing process to get enough good yield for 8 working SPE, then we have an 8 SPE PS3?

As for XBOX360, I think ATI unified shader is very interesting and certainly sounds a lot more flexible than Nvidia "Dual SLI GT6xxxx on a chip". But there's a rumour that the shaders can only do EITHER pixel or vertex shader PER CYCLE, meaning it's not as flexible as it seems, anyone have any more info about this?

Okay...finally the PS4!! Okay, i'm a bit far ahead, but if the CELL proves successful, in another 6 years time, the manufacturing process will be good, the design has improve and they can make lots of CELL chip at rock bottom prices. And since the CELL is all multi CPU ready. The # of SPE can also increase per CELL CPU by then. By just packing in a couple of cheap CELL chips, they'll have the next PS a real powerhouse at a cheap price...which i think that's when their CELL hardware investment really pays off.(but of course, the PS3 would have guarantee them some ROI in terms of software royalty and other potential electronic products(TOSHIBA washing machine!!! Oh yeah, the next TOSHIBA washing machine will have a GIGABIT network port and linkable to your PS3!! Maybe you can control the swirling motion of the water from your PS3 BATARANG!! J/K) might give some cash back also)..after all, the according to IBM/SONY/Toshiba, the CELL was designed to cater for the next 10 years or so.

Still, currently, the CELL as it is, sounds good ( the multi SPE) but at the same time, it's a IN-ORDER CPU (like the XBOX360 PPC CPU also), which is much less complicated than Intel/AMD CPU's for PCs which is OUT OF ORDER CPU. I think OOO CPU is more powerful as it can predict instructions and acts accordingly while, IO CPU is simplistic and just acts on whatever it's fed.

Of course the benefit of the IO CPU is reduced size, meaning less HEAT and faster requency...so you can't exactly compare a PPC or Intel chip running at 3.2Ghz to a 3.2Ghz CELL.

Thus in order to fully utilize the CELL CPU, the PS3 archictecture have to have a huge bandwidth and streamline the instructions to the SPE via the Power PC core(what do they call that? PPE?), I've no idea how are they intending to overcome the shortcoming of the in-order instruction sets, but most likely, like it's predecessor, the EE and GS chip, by some the force of raw brute bandwidth, which hopefully is enough to feed it optimally.(the CELL is sorta evolution and further improvement from the EE/GS combo me thinks).

Finally a stab at the SPECS. All those bally-hoo about 2 TERAFLOPS ...but no mention on whether it is single precision or double precision..no mention of how the benchmark was done...same for MS. Basically, both are crappio marketing scheme.

I believe the CELL will be adequately powerful, but i don't buy it to be THAT powerful...just like the EE/GS back in it's time. But i think the real payoff of the CELL is not now, but the next 5 years, when the manufacturing process has improved and design has been further finetune and when multiple cheap CELLS are easily available and linkable in a single motherboard to power the washing machine, TV, fridge,steam iron and whatelse...PS4..smile.gif

Okay guys...shoot away. smile.gif


ray_
post Jun 13 2005, 11:53 PM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ Jun 13 2005, 09:36 AM)
Oooi...why no debate here last few days one?? Must be running out of rumours and news and steams liao...

btw, to all those techie gurus, i just wanna ask this:

Why do you think the PS3 CELL has 1 "redundant SPE" and runs 25GFlops(theorotically) less?? IMO, redundant means FAULTY. SONY must be having headache trying to get enough good yield to get all 8 SPE working and thus probably getting a high % of literally.."half baked"..sillicons with one SPE still "uncooked"(or toasted...whichever u prefer...hee-hee).

I remember previously that SONY mentioned that the CELL will not be ready in time for the PS3, but obviously they squeeze the chip development schedule ahead to make the CELL ready for the PS3, but in turn have to sacrifice some time to further fine tune and improve the design and also the time needed for the manufacturing process to get mature to have high % of good yield.

So their best bet would be going for 7 SPE, which in their opinion is achievable without throwing away too many CELL chips (those < 7 SPE working).

Maybe a year or two later, they'll have a good enough manufacturing process to get enough good yield for 8 working SPE, then we have an 8 SPE PS3?

As for XBOX360, I think ATI unified shader is very interesting and certainly sounds a lot more flexible than Nvidia "Dual SLI GT6xxxx on a chip". But there's a rumour that the shaders can only do EITHER pixel or vertex shader PER CYCLE, meaning it's not as flexible as it seems, anyone have any more info about this?

Okay...finally the PS4!! Okay, i'm a bit far ahead, but if the CELL proves successful,  in another 6 years time, the manufacturing process will be good, the design has improve and they can make lots of CELL chip at rock bottom prices. And since the CELL is all multi CPU ready. The # of SPE can also increase per CELL CPU by then. By just packing in a couple of cheap CELL chips, they'll have the next PS a real powerhouse at a cheap price...which i think that's when their CELL hardware investment really pays off.(but of course, the PS3 would have guarantee them some ROI in terms of software royalty and other potential electronic products(TOSHIBA washing machine!!! Oh yeah, the next TOSHIBA washing machine will have a GIGABIT network port and linkable to your PS3!! Maybe you can control the swirling motion of the water from your PS3 BATARANG!! J/K) might give some cash back also)..after all, the according to IBM/SONY/Toshiba, the CELL was designed to cater for the next 10 years or so.

Still, currently, the CELL as it is, sounds good ( the multi SPE) but at the same time, it's a IN-ORDER CPU (like the XBOX360 PPC CPU also), which is much less complicated than Intel/AMD CPU's for PCs which is OUT OF ORDER CPU. I think OOO CPU is more powerful as it can predict instructions and acts accordingly while, IO CPU is simplistic and just acts on whatever it's fed.

Of course the benefit of the IO CPU is reduced size, meaning less HEAT and faster requency...so you can't exactly compare a PPC or Intel chip running at 3.2Ghz to a 3.2Ghz CELL.

Thus in order to fully utilize the CELL CPU, the PS3 archictecture have to have a huge bandwidth and streamline the instructions to the SPE via the Power PC core(what do they call that? PPE?), I've no idea how are they intending to overcome the shortcoming of the in-order instruction sets, but most likely, like it's predecessor, the EE and GS chip, by some the force of raw brute bandwidth, which hopefully is enough to feed it optimally.(the CELL is sorta evolution and further improvement from the EE/GS combo me thinks).

Finally a stab at the SPECS. All those bally-hoo about 2 TERAFLOPS ...but no mention on whether it is single precision or double precision..no mention of how the benchmark was done...same for MS. Basically, both are crappio marketing scheme.

I believe the CELL will be adequately powerful, but i don't buy it to be THAT powerful...just like the EE/GS back in it's time. But i think the real payoff of the CELL is not now, but the next 5 years, when the manufacturing process has improved and design has been further finetune and when multiple cheap CELLS are easily available and linkable in a single motherboard to power the washing machine, TV, fridge,steam iron and whatelse...PS4..smile.gif

Okay guys...shoot away. smile.gif
*
Nice post. thumbup.gif

Well... this is more geared towards solid state junkies. So perhaps ikanayam or Silkworm could comment (especially the part on IO and OOO). I'll pass on most but a couple of these. smile.gif

Just a note on redundancy. It's there to provide fail-safe operation, thus is not really a fault by itself. Could you direct us to the source of that information, it''ll interesting to know that Sony is packing up 9 SPEs to provide improved yield, something unheard of (by me at least) so far.

The point on the SPE "streamlining" instructions from the PPE is not exactly correct. Like we've said before, prior to executing any task on the SPE, all data and instructions had to be copied into the LS. This should be done using the dedicated DMA of the SPE via memory spaces mapped by the TLB/SLB of the PPE MMU. So there would be no data or instruction fetch from the external memory, instead instruction and data would be fetched from the internal memory (i.e. Local Storage) and executed in a timely manner given the proximity and the speed of the SRAM. I do not however know if the internal bus would introduce any redundancies. If ever there be, I'm sure we will be looking at an insignificantly small figure.
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post Jun 14 2005, 05:38 PM

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QUOTE(matrix)
Still, currently, the CELL as it is, sounds good ( the multi SPE) but at the same time, it's a IN-ORDER CPU (like the XBOX360 PPC CPU also), which is much less complicated than Intel/AMD CPU's for PCs which is OUT OF ORDER CPU. I think OOO CPU is more powerful as it can predict instructions and acts accordingly while, IO CPU is simplistic and just acts on whatever it's fed.
You are confused. The purpose of OoO is not to predict, but rather to exploit more instruction level parallelism out of a pipeline. There are basically two major drawbacks to a pipelined structure: data dependancy/hazards and pipeline flushes due to branches. Pipeline flushes affect the whole pipe from the point where the branch is taken and are generally more "expensive" in terms of lost performance. They are countered by branch prediction, which the PPE and SPEs of Cell do have.

Data hazards such as Read-after-Write(RAW), Write-after-Read (WAR), and Write-after-Write (WAW), stall a pipeline by inserting "bubbles" in the pipeline until the dependancies have been solved, at the cost of a few cycles. Out-of-Order Execution may help in special cases where there are enough operands available in the instruction stream to feed to an execution unit, so that the processor can go ahead and execute that instruction while another (earlier) instruction is still waiting for its data to be ready. Sort of like in a bank, if a customer is at the counter and he's busy filling out a form, the teller will ask the next customer to come to the counter, provided that this next customer doesn't need to fill any forms.

Even without OoO, a pipeline is still equipped with data forwarding buffers to minimize length of pipeline stalls. A forwarding buffer "forwards" the result of the execution units to the earlier stages of the pipeline so that those results may be used by following instructions that depend on it, instead of having to wait for it to be written to memory and fetched again. Furthermore, instruction re-ordering and scheduling is also within the capabilities of modern optimizing compilers. Put these two together and pipeline stalls are a non-issue with careful programming.

OoO is "expensive" to implement in terms of complexity and silicon area. In order (pun not intended) to find a suitable instruction to execute out-of-order, the decoded instruction buffer should be quite large. Look at the P4's Netburst micro architecture, their "L1" trace-cache is filled entirely with decoded micro-ops, which the OoO engine can search through to find a suitable candidate for scheduling. The further ahead the OoO engine grabs the instruction from, the larger the re-ordering buffer needs to be; instructions still need to be retired in order. The kind of silicon area that takes up could be put to different use, and in the case of the PPE in the Cell CPU, it looks like it's been taken up by Simultaneous Multi-Threading (SMT).

SMT is another strategy to make efficient use of the execution units in a CPU, at the cost of doubling the necessary units for thread context (Instruction Pointer, Stack, Flags, GPRs), when one thread is using the Adder, another can be using the Load-Store Unit, or the FP unit.

In summary, OoO is not a magic bullet that promises huge performance gains just by being featured in a CPU's architecture. It's not a new idea either, ironically it was used first by IBM in the 1960s, as shown in this research paper. The designers of Cell have made traded off this feature with other architectural features like SMT, dual-issue pipelines, etc to attain a balance that is acceptable to them, and hopefully suitable for the intended application, namely console gaming.
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post Jun 15 2005, 09:08 AM

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Thanks to Silkworm and Ray for some explanation....i don't pretend to understand everything Silkworm put up there...maybe 30% smile.gif, but good enough for me.

So that means the PPC and CELL has "branch prediction" which achieves similar results to OOO execution, rite?

QUOTE
Could you direct us to the source of that information, it''ll interesting to know that Sony is packing up 9 SPEs to provide improved yield, something unheard of (by me at least) so far
9 SPE? No, i was saying 7 SPE. It is in the official PS3 SPECS all over the web. It's mentioned "1 SPE reserved for redundancy" or something like that.

Added:

Here's a nice link for reading the CELL...haven't finish reading it myself...hurts my head...LOL.

http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techl...icle-021405.pdf

This post has been edited by Matrix: Jun 15 2005, 02:25 PM
ray_
post Jun 16 2005, 01:17 PM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ Jun 15 2005, 09:08 AM)
Thanks to Silkworm and Ray for some explanation....i don't pretend to understand everything Silkworm put up there...maybe 30% smile.gif, but good enough for me.

So that means the PPC and CELL has "branch prediction" which achieves similar results to OOO execution, rite?
9 SPE? No, i was saying 7 SPE. It is in the official PS3 SPECS all over the web. It's mentioned "1 SPE reserved for redundancy" or something like that.

Added:

Here's a nice link for reading the CELL...haven't finish reading it myself...hurts my head...LOL.

http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techl...icle-021405.pdf
*
I think if what you've said in regards to redundancy is true, I would presume that the redundant SPE is there to be swapped in when all 7 SPEs are swarmed to maintain throughput. Or, a non-maskable error such as alignment faults is causing one of the SPE to be decommissioned until it's reset.

I would anticipate a new programming paradigm for Cell. Well, at least for the developer of the Cell's RTOS. God forbid that the memory management of the SPE would ever be passed into the hands of the application developer.

Actually, I would anticipate a few scenarios that could be implemented into the memory management portion of the SPE in the RTOS:
1) Each SPE's task footprint would be made small enough to fit into the 256K LS. Task would be queued in a shared virtual task pipe and fed into the SPE based on either first-come-first-served basis, round-robin or priority scheduling. Any any rate, there would be frequent memory swap accomodated by the PPE MMU.
2) Each SPE would be assigned its own dedicated virtual task pipe and fed into the SPE based on either first-come-first-served basis, round-robin or priority scheduling. Memory swap is accomodated by the PPE MMU.
3) There aren't enough task to load all 7 SPEs and the redundant SPE(s) could be programmed to power the PS3 grill as required. (*yum...)
ikanayam
post Jun 16 2005, 01:27 PM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ Jun 14 2005, 08:08 PM)
Thanks to Silkworm and Ray for some explanation....i don't pretend to understand everything Silkworm put up there...maybe 30% smile.gif, but good enough for me.

So that means the PPC and CELL has "branch prediction" which achieves similar results to OOO execution, rite?
9 SPE? No, i was saying 7 SPE. It is in the official PS3 SPECS all over the web. It's mentioned "1 SPE reserved for redundancy" or something like that.

Added:

Here's a nice link for reading the CELL...haven't finish reading it myself...hurts my head...LOL.

http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techl...icle-021405.pdf
*
Branch prediction and OOO are different things.




QUOTE(ray_ @ Jun 16 2005, 12:17 AM)
I think if what you've said in regards to redundancy is true, I would presume that the redundant SPE is there to be swapped in when all 7 SPEs are swarmed to maintain throughput. Or, a non-maskable error such as alignment faults is causing one of the SPE to be decommissioned until it's reset.

I would anticipate a new programming paradigm for Cell. Well, at least for the developer of the Cell's RTOS. God forbid that the memory management of the SPE  would ever be passed into the hands of the application developer.

Actually, I would anticipate a few scenarios that could be implemented into the memory management portion of the SPE in the RTOS:
1) Each SPE's task footprint would be made small enough to fit into the 256K LS. Task would be queued in a shared virtual task pipe and fed into the SPE based on either first-come-first-served basis, round-robin or priority scheduling. Any any rate, there would be frequent memory swap accomodated by the PPE MMU.
2) Each SPE would be assigned its own dedicated virtual task pipe and fed into the SPE based on either first-come-first-served basis, round-robin or priority scheduling. Memory swap is accomodated by the PPE MMU.
3) There aren't enough task to load all 7 SPEs and the redundant SPE(s) could be programmed to power the PS3 grill as required. (*yum...)
*
IIRC... the only reason the "redundant" SPE is there is to increase yields. The Cell is a pretty big chip, so it's very likely that there will be some imperfections in many of the chips. Since the SPEs take up most of the space, it's likely that a fault is on one of the SPEs. In that case, they can just disable the SPE and still get a useable chip out of it. All chips that have fully functional SPEs will also have one disabled to maintain consistency. It's the same thing with the XB360 GPU. There are more than 48 ALUs but the faulty ones are disabled to increase yields. I think a lot of modern chips have some sort of redundancy for this purpose.
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post Jun 16 2005, 02:14 PM

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QUOTE(ray_ @ Jun 16 2005, 01:17 PM)
Actually, I would anticipate a few scenarios that could be implemented into the memory management portion of the SPE in the RTOS:
1) Each SPE's task footprint would be made small enough to fit into the 256K LS. Task would be queued in a shared virtual task pipe and fed into the SPE based on either first-come-first-served basis, round-robin or priority scheduling. Any any rate, there would be frequent memory swap accomodated by the PPE MMU.
2) Each SPE would be assigned its own dedicated virtual task pipe and fed into the SPE based on either first-come-first-served basis, round-robin or priority scheduling. Memory swap is accomodated by the PPE MMU.
3) There aren't enough task to load all 7 SPEs and the redundant SPE(s) could be programmed to power the PS3 grill as required. (*yum...)
*
We can have a peek at the Linux "model" of programming the SPEs in these kernel patches released a couple of months ago. SPEs exist as "files" in the filesystem and that's how program code and data are transferred onto it. The SPEs are idle until a DMA "kick" command is sent to it, after which it looks like it's controlled by the standard POSIX threading API. At least, that's what I've managed to glean from the raw patch data. I'd need to actually patch the full kernel source to see the context of some parts, like the interrupt controller and the memory management unit.

One might also gain insight on the programming model of Cell from the archived presentation/webcast linked from Power.org, from the Barcelona Power conference held last week. I haven't had a chance to view it yet and the webcast isn't downloadable for offline viewing. sad.gif

QUOTE(ikanayam @ Jun 16 2005, 01:27 PM)
IIRC... the only reason the "redundant" SPE is there is to increase yields. The Cell is a pretty big chip, so it's very likely that there will be some imperfections in many of the chips. Since the SPEs take up most of the space, it's likely that a fault is on one of the SPEs. In that case, they can just disable the SPE and still get a useable chip out of it. All chips that have fully functional SPEs will also have one disabled to maintain consistency. It's the same thing with the XB360 GPU. There are more than 48 ALUs but the faulty ones are disabled to increase yields. I think a lot of modern chips have some sort of redundancy for this purpose.
*
Right-o, its all a matter of statistics. Right now fabs are using 300mm diameter wafers, which gives 70,695mm. The Cell processor, weighs in at 235mm. Divide and you get about 300 dies, take away another 20% or so because you're fitting rectangles into a circle, and that leaves you with about 240 dies per wafer. The SPEs cover around 2/3 or 66% of a single Cell die, so that gives a higher chance that defects would form on a SPE. On new processes, the initial yield is usually below 50%. By making one SPE redundant, they may increase the yield up to 60-70%, which is important if they want to hit the volumes that they expect for PS3.

An SPE may be deactivated by firmware, by putting it in a power saving state, or by modifying the metal layers thereby cutting off the power to it on the IC level. If the first option is used, we might see something like what PC overclockers have been doing for a while now; tweaking firmware to unlock deactivated hardware. But that might be pointless because all PS3 software would be targetted for only 7 SPEs and the reactivated one wouldn't be used anyway.
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post Jun 16 2005, 02:41 PM

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Sorry to bug in and makes me look like a total noob....I can't find a better thread to post my stuff so i gona kacau this discussion for awhile..

Japanese developers discuss, and dis, the next-gen consoles
Top game creators from Japan share their opinions on the PlayStation 3, Revolution, and Xbox 360.

QUOTE
Yuji Naka, Sonic the Hedgehog series creator at Sega

PlayStation 3 - "I am very interested in its high-quality graphics capabilities. It's equipped with a graphics chip that's twice as powerful as the high-end [graphics card] for the PC, which allows it to make realistic expressions that haven't been possible before."

Revolution - "I look forward to the 'new kind of fun' that's unique to Nintendo, and I expect that there will be a lot of surprises, such as the unannounced controller. It's also great that we'll be able to play Famicom and other games via download. I hope Sega games will be playable as well." [Note: A number of Sega titles have been released for Nintendo consoles by Sunsoft.]

Xbox 360 - "[Microsoft has] used its knowledge from Xbox Live to evolve their network, making its services and controls even more convenient for the user, which I think is a very attractive point."

Keisuke Kikuchi, Kagero II and Fatal Frame series producer at Tecmo

PlayStation 3 - "It has a very attractive high machine spec. It may be difficult to design a system that can balance out the use of its power, but it should be worth the effort. It should be fun to make games that tend to require high-quality graphics, such as horse-racing games and horror games."

Revolution - "It's difficult to comment on it since there's been very little information, but I'm looking forward to the controller that's yet to be announced."

Xbox 360 - "It's a well-balanced machine. Its CPU, graphics, memory, network capability, and convenience of hardware control are at a high level. I would like to make a game that takes advantage of its online connection."

Masanori Takeuchi, Otogi series producer at From Software

PlayStation 3 - "To be honest, it's still full of unknown factors, and it's difficult to comment on. In my own opinion, it doesn't seem like hardware that will make games more fun. It's being called a 'supercomputer', so I guess it's like a set top box which functions like a PC. My impression [of the console] is like, 'It can also play games, which is good.'"

Revolution - "It's like a console that old-time gamers can drool over. It still has some mysteries, but it's not too difficult to imagine what the machine can do, so there should be people that are clearly looking forward to purchasing it. Its capabilities such as the function to play with the DS via Wi-Fi connection might change the way of gaming, and it's interesting."

Xbox 360 - "It seems like a standard evolvement from the current generation [of consoles]. Whether that's good or bad would depend on the opinion of different people. But it's obvious that the console is meant for heavy users. I believe it's also a console that publishers can use their accumulated knowledge the most [out of the next-generation machines]. It's the best hardware if you have a good fund and you don't want to take risks in development."

Noritaka Funamizu, former Capcom producer and current executive director of Craft & Meister

PlayStation 3 - "It's hardware with the utmost power. I believe it can realize new expressions in both graphics and music, in ways that haven't been possible until now."

Revolution - "There hasn't been much information released about it yet. But I'm looking forward to it as a machine that will feature a distinct kind of fun, different from the direction that the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 are headed."

Xbox 360 - "It has a high [hardware] capability, but it's also strong in terms of network and it's also a major console in the American market. So I am planning on title[s] with those aspects kept in consideration."

Yoshiki Okamoto, former Capcom executive and current representative of Game Republic

Xbox 360 - "When considering the titles by Q entertainment's Mizuguchi-san, Mistwalker's Sakaguchi-san, and other games that will be announced in the future, the Xbox 360 should have enough firepower to fight in the next-generation console war. The independent creators such as myself are like the front line that's meant to cut through [the enemies] and start off a good pace, with an army [of publishers] following right behind us."

Kou Shibusawa, producer at Koei

PlayStation 3 - "We showed a trailer of Ni-oh at E3 in May. This game will take full advantage of the extreme hardware spec of the PlayStation 3. Being able to show movie-quality CG in real-time raises our creativeness, and it stimulates our heart as creators. We hope our challenge on new product[s] that will stun our users."

Revolution - "It seems to be going in a different direction from the other two consoles, and it's trying to develop its own unique market. Being able to play old games from the Famicom era should be enticing to the gaming generation, and as a creator, I look forward to playing my games that I have a special fondness for. Aside from having good graphics, the Revolution's uniqueness and concentration towards gameplay should make it a product that's good towards all ages."

Xbox 360 - "Aside from the machine specs, I see great potential in its network capabilities and connectivity with PCs, which is Microsoft's territory. When thinking about the future of online games, I feel the urge to create a new product that takes advantage of [Xbox Live]. Since the Xbox 360 is coming out first, I am very interested in looking at how it will affect the market."

Seems like next gen console, each has evolve into something unique...you like nasi lemak, chow kue teow or roti canai? Damn, i should stop reading hideo kojima's interview...

Okay..you guys carry on..
ray_
post Jun 16 2005, 03:19 PM

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QUOTE(silkworm @ Jun 16 2005, 02:14 PM)
We can have a peek at the Linux "model" of programming the SPEs in these kernel patches released a couple of months ago. SPEs exist as "files" in the filesystem and that's how program code and data are transferred onto it. The SPEs are idle until a DMA "kick" command is sent to it, after which it looks like it's controlled by the standard POSIX threading API. At least, that's what I've managed to glean from the raw patch data. I'd need to actually patch the full kernel source to see the context of some parts, like the interrupt controller and the memory management unit.

One might also gain insight on the programming model of Cell from the archived presentation/webcast linked from Power.org, from the Barcelona Power conference held last week. I haven't had a chance to view it yet and the webcast isn't downloadable for offline viewing. sad.gif
*
Where do you get all these links anyway? (* shake fist)

Looks like linux folks are implementing method 2). But IMHO, 1) would spread the processing load more evenly across all SPEs.

"We will need our own address space operations as soon as we allow the SPU context to be scheduled away from the physical SPU into page cache."

PPE MMU will be segmenting the memory into pages thus one could swap a code or data page into the LS as one deem necessary. Page granularity in the context of the PPE MMU should be adjustable. Given the small size of the LS, it would be more useful to set a larger PPE MMU page size to load the task to its entirety. But having a smaller page size would give the programmer the flexibility to apply data protection mechanism of the MMU at a smaller scale.

It would be interesting to see how Sony plans to implement its Level 1 kernel.

EDIT: It would be nice if these segmented swap memory has some scheduling capability built in (hence a programming paradigm) where in the case of linux, scheduling information can be embedded into the mem file section headers. An a dispatcher could be implemented to arbitrate between task.

This post has been edited by ray_: Jun 16 2005, 03:29 PM
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post Jun 16 2005, 04:21 PM

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From fa.linux.kernel:
"spu_run suspends the current thread from the host CPU and transfers the flow of execution to the SPU.


Wait, I thought the operation of the PPE is independent to the SPE. Why is there a need to stall the PPE to service the SPE? They should both run independently.

This post has been edited by ray_: Jun 16 2005, 04:25 PM
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post Jun 16 2005, 04:39 PM

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Take it easy, the host thread is stalled, not the entire PPE. The SPU/SPE is going to be encapsulated into a Pthread, as you will see in the "bpathread.c" module.

Edit - oops, in my haste, I grabbed the google groups link off my browser history list, and apparently that thread didn't have the whole set of patches. No worries, the complete set of 8 patch files are available on the linux kernel mailing list archive, run a search for "ppc64 bpa" should get you the right hits.

This post has been edited by silkworm: Jun 16 2005, 05:12 PM
ray_
post Jun 16 2005, 05:17 PM

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QUOTE(silkworm @ Jun 16 2005, 04:39 PM)
Take it easy, the host thread is stalled, not the entire PPE. The SPU/SPE is going to be encapsulated into a Pthread, as you will see in the "bpathread.c" module.
*
Ah....I remember now. The kernel scheduling is centralized on the PPE because the SPE does not have a resident RTOS.

If the SPE were to have a resident RTOS, things would be very different.




ikanayam
post Jun 17 2005, 01:08 AM

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QUOTE(silkworm @ Jun 16 2005, 01:14 AM)
An SPE may be deactivated by firmware, by putting it in a power saving state, or by modifying the metal layers thereby cutting off the power to it on the IC level. If the first option is used, we might see something like what PC overclockers have been doing for a while now; tweaking firmware to unlock deactivated hardware. But that might be pointless because all PS3 software would be targetted for only 7 SPEs and the reactivated one wouldn't be used anyway.
*
I'm sure they will cut it off on the hardware level to make sure meddlers don't mess around with it tongue.gif
and also because cutting off power on the IC level would be a bit better in terms of saving energy than a low power state.
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post Jun 17 2005, 04:23 PM

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the cell just seems so messy to me
SUSMatrix
post Jun 20 2005, 04:21 PM

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More tongue stabbing from Ken Kutagari (who has recently went a bit wild/mad) at MS:

In the area of backwards compatibility, Kutaragi finds some time to take shots at the competition (he also does this quite a bit in part 1 of the interview). "With the Xbox next generation coming in November of this year, the current Xbox will become last generation. With that, the Xbox will kill itself. The only way to save it is to have 100% backwards compatibility from the first day. However, it seems that [Microsoft] cannot make that commitment -- on a technology level, it's difficult."


H@H@
post Jun 21 2005, 06:18 PM

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Here's some interesting info... Apparently, the PS3 is smaller than the Xbox360 according to this.

Courtesy of Evil Avatar

That image of it being a barbeque grill is still with me tongue.gif
ccb
post Jun 21 2005, 07:02 PM

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lol,i want a steak grill not barbeque grill smile.gif
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post Jun 22 2005, 09:19 AM

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QUOTE(ccb @ Jun 21 2005, 07:02 PM)
lol,i want a steak grill not barbeque grill smile.gif
*
Make sure call me to the party when you guys are grilling the lamb...LOL.
PrivateJohn
post Jun 30 2005, 03:23 AM

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Microsoft's Xbox 360 & Sony's PlayStation 3 - Examples of Poor CPU Performance
Console fanboy....prepare to get slaughter by pc gamer.
d(@@)b
post Jul 3 2005, 12:44 PM

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IMHO,

PC > PS3, Nintendo revolution, XBOX 360

But..........

I will buy those consoles if there is pirates on the sea (if u know what i mean) smile.gif
kei18kun
post Jul 6 2005, 01:28 PM

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lol, same here, price also matters
ray_
post Jul 6 2005, 03:18 PM

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H@H@, thanks for the l33t upgrade.

Now I can pwn and cum as I please. Yay.
xcrue
post Aug 2 2005, 01:39 PM

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are PS3 n Xbox 360 selling in the market now?

I read HWM say PS3 will be launced at 2006 and Xbox 360 at end of 2005

BTW,if the price is around Rm2+++.It's pretty reasonable since the specs are really overwhelming,CPU 3.2ghz,VGa 500mhz memory,20gb buildin memory ,wireless,6 USB 2.0 and so on...


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post Aug 6 2005, 04:45 PM

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QUOTE(xcrue @ Aug 2 2005, 01:39 PM)
are PS3 n Xbox 360 selling in the market now?

I read HWM say PS3 will be launced at 2006 and Xbox 360 at end of 2005

BTW,if the price is around Rm2+++.It's pretty reasonable since the specs are really overwhelming,CPU 3.2ghz,VGa 500mhz memory,20gb buildin memory ,wireless,6 USB 2.0 and so on...
*
with those specs u've mentioned...i'm surprised that u don't even know whether PS3 or Xbox 360 is already in market or not...???
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post Aug 8 2005, 06:17 PM

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so fast gonna get it, yahoo!
ikanayam
post Aug 9 2005, 04:33 AM

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Oh noes this is turning into a spam thread.

Btw the Cell's PPE just got beefed up in the latest revision. Double the size of the 1st revision. Perhaps they realized they needed more general purpose processing power.
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post Aug 9 2005, 08:37 AM

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QUOTE(ikanayam @ Aug 9 2005, 04:33 AM)
Oh noes this is turning into a spam thread.

Btw the Cell's PPE just got beefed up in the latest revision. Double the size of the 1st revision. Perhaps they realized they needed more general purpose processing power.
*
The PPE got a bump up in size in the "DD2" revision of the Cell, but there hasn't been any concrete explanation as to what was changed, just more speculation. Anyway, more goodies for the technically minded: papers at IBM research

The TRE demo paper is a good one. smile.gif
ray_
post Aug 12 2005, 11:44 AM

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QUOTE(silkworm @ Aug 9 2005, 08:37 AM)
The PPE got a bump up in size in the "DD2" revision of the Cell, but there hasn't been any concrete explanation as to what was changed, just more speculation. Anyway, more goodies for the technically minded: papers at IBM research

The TRE demo paper is a good one. smile.gif
*
"Each SPE is responsible for four regions of the screen and the vertical cuts are processed in a round robin fashion, one vertical cut per region, and left to right within a
each region, so no synchronization is need on the output as no two SPEs will ever attempt to modify the same locations in the accumulation buffer even with two vertical cuts in flight (double buffering) per SPE."

I wonder if the vertical cut processing on the SPE, done in a round-robin fashion, is due to the limitation of the DMA. Since SPE basically screams parallelism, the bottleneck would be the result of DMAs prioritized in a way such that each SPE has equal rights to the DMA thus resulting in a round-robin stalemate.

Paralellism lost in translation. You'll make it big if you could patent something that makes DMA bus arbitration and memory coherency a thing of the past.
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post Aug 12 2005, 10:20 PM

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QUOTE(ray_ @ Aug 12 2005, 11:44 AM)
"Each SPE is responsible for four regions of the screen and the vertical cuts are processed in a round robin fashion, one vertical cut per region, and left to right within a
each region, so no synchronization is need on the output as no two SPEs will ever attempt to modify the same locations in the accumulation buffer even with two vertical cuts in flight (double buffering) per SPE."

I wonder if the vertical cut processing on the SPE, done in a round-robin fashion, is due to the limitation of the DMA. Since SPE basically screams parallelism, the bottleneck would be the result of DMAs prioritized in a way such that each SPE has equal rights to the DMA thus resulting in a round-robin stalemate.

Paralellism lost in translation. You'll make it big if you could patent something that makes DMA bus arbitration and memory coherency a thing of the past.
*
I think you might have gone off-track somewhere. The round-robin scheduling is applied to the four regions being processed within each SPE, not SPE-to-SPE. There is a significant delay in DMA fetches, but that is being hidden by the double-buffering of input and output per SPE. As they explain further down, at any one time an SPE is calculating the ray intersection and downloading data for the next cut into LS. I believe they are doing it in this way to leverage the fact that the SPE is capable of issuing a SIMD arithmetic op and a load/store/DMA channel op per clock.
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post Aug 13 2005, 01:59 AM

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QUOTE(silkworm @ Aug 12 2005, 10:20 PM)
I think you might have gone off-track somewhere. The round-robin scheduling is applied to the four regions being processed within each SPE, not SPE-to-SPE. There is a significant delay in DMA fetches, but that is being hidden by the double-buffering of input and output per SPE. As they explain further down, at any one time an SPE is calculating the ray intersection and downloading data for the next cut into LS. I believe they are doing it in this way to leverage the fact that the SPE is capable of issuing a SIMD arithmetic op and a load/store/DMA channel op per clock.
*
That sentence quoted above mentioned that round robin is applied to the vertical cut processing. I'm assuming each region has several vertical cuts (I'm not a graphic expert here so correct me if I'm wrong) and that each vertical cut process accesses a memory index containing the mathematical description, where the index is auto-incremented by the DMA controller. Also I'm assuming that "one vertical cut per region" relates to the round-robin fashion that the vertical cuts are processed, left to right, one region at a time and one vertical cut at a time.

If this is correct, the four regions you've mentioned relates more to DMA frames (or block) with its parameters (base address, length and data size) initialized through the command parser. It makes sense since each SMF would need to arbitrate between one another for bus access, thus the usage of the round-robin method.

This post has been edited by ray_: Aug 13 2005, 02:21 AM
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post Sep 30 2005, 05:52 PM

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More documents on Cell Broadband Engine available to all.

Cell Broadband Engine

Enjoy....

Also: There shouldn't be any more speculation on whether the Revolution processing power is superior to that of 360 or PS3. Iwata has conceded that the Revolution is "less powerful". Read source here. Nifty controller for the pwn.

This post has been edited by ray_: Sep 30 2005, 05:59 PM
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post Oct 2 2005, 09:52 AM

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How soon after launch do consoles tend to start appearing in Low Yat shelves, and are they NTSC consoles? Are the prices on par with the foreign equivalents?
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post Oct 3 2005, 08:21 AM

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QUOTE(DeaDLocK @ Oct 2 2005, 09:52 AM)
How soon after launch do consoles tend to start appearing in Low Yat shelves, and are they NTSC consoles? Are the prices on par with the foreign equivalents?
*
New consoles that are released in Japan usually get here in the first week of release, if not on Day Zero. However, be prepared for a serious markup. Going by the PSP pricing trend, I'd expect the prices of next generation consoles to reach parity with the overseas "suggested retail price" within 3-6 months of release.

PS, Low Yat Plaza isn't really a haven for console gaming, you'd be better off looking for console related things across the street in Sg. Wang or Imbi Plaza.
yikyeou
post Oct 6 2005, 10:21 AM

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Nintendo Revolution's Controller is cool...like dat nun-chuku style analog...so cool...but ps3 is great too...coz all my favourite rpg game will out on ps3...xbox not bad also...xbox live...xlink kai...can play on9...c...alll also so good....duno which to buy also of they r out....i know u guys will ask me to buy all...but i m jz 13...baggin daddy to buy me a console...oni 1 console is allow...haiz...gv some comment...readers...
PrivateJohn
post Oct 26 2005, 01:15 AM

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Revolution to Launch Worldwide in June 2006?
QUOTE
"As of early October this year, we had agreed with all key partners that a global ship date of June 2006 was achievable," said one of SPOnG 's several sources associated with the Revolution manufacturing process. "Nintendo will get the launch in Japan and America and Europe as close as possible. It will be like the Xbox 360 launch, only tighter."
"Everyone at Nintendo in all territories is now focusing on a global launch in June of next year," another highly-placed source told us yesterday afternoon, under terms of anonymity. "The European launch might slip into July, but that's it. Everyone at Nintendo has been briefed for this date and the official release schedule everyone is working to shows Revolution down for June 2006; this is simply a matter of fact."

Mr.LKM
post Oct 29 2005, 06:31 PM

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June 2006? That's late...
eone
post Nov 24 2005, 02:10 PM

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i hope next-next gen console will support Stereo HMDs
xxboxx
post Nov 24 2005, 07:25 PM

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^what s stereo HMDs?
eone
post Nov 25 2005, 11:07 AM

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Stereoscopic Head Mounted Display
Mr.LKM
post Nov 25 2005, 02:24 PM

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QUOTE(eone @ Nov 25 2005, 11:07 AM)
Stereoscopic Head Mounted Display
*
May we know what is this for?
eone
post Nov 25 2005, 03:39 PM

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its a virtual reality head gogle thinghy la.. something like this thing:
user posted image

thant once nintendo apply it on their vboy.. but at that time only capable drawing monochrome(red) and huge..

well the hmd technology is going cheaper now..
Mr.LKM
post Nov 25 2005, 05:31 PM

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QUOTE(eone @ Nov 25 2005, 03:39 PM)
its a virtual reality head gogle thinghy la.. something like this thing:
user posted image

thant once nintendo apply it on their vboy.. but at that time only capable drawing monochrome(red) and huge..

well the hmd technology is going cheaper now..
*
That's cool, maybe the next next generation console will have this as default equipment. thumbup.gif
ikanayam
post Nov 28 2005, 10:16 AM

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A semi-decent HMD costs around USD1000, and a decent one... forget it. Might as well get a good HDTV and it will look better. HMDs don't need special support for them AFAIK. They can work just like a monitor.

This post has been edited by ikanayam: Nov 28 2005, 10:17 AM
eone
post Nov 28 2005, 11:44 AM

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yea.. it cost a lot caused by low market.. and the one with mp resolution..

its not like hdtv, just imagine, steroscopic view which provided depth, imagine moving ur head around seeing vivid virtual world..
wcliang
post Nov 29 2005, 09:30 PM

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QUOTE
I don't think the PS3 sucks, but since IGN was stupid enough to publish some trash with crappy reasons not to get an Xbox 360... all bets are off. http://ps3.ign.com/articles/668/668446p1.html.

1. No Live! In fact, sony came out and recently announced that they're not even going to bother to build an answer to Xbox Live.

Sony, you can keep your ability to plug in 7 controllers. I'll take being able to play with 63 other players on live in a fps over 7 controllers any day of the week.

2. The 36.5 megabits per second blu ray drive that Sony is squeezing into the PS3.

The BD-Rom drive that's going to be used in the PS3 has a speed of 36.5 MBits per second. 36.5megaBITS per second, not megaBYTES. 8bits=1byte=4.5megaBYTES per second. http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/

This is because the technology for the drives will still be in it's infancy when the ps3 is being launched.

That means in order to fill the 256MB cache (to load a decent sized race on GT4 let's say) will take about 56 seconds of waiting.

To fill the same 256MB cache on the xbox 360's 12x DVD drive read at 15.75MB/s (megabytes) = 15 seconds

I know you know your math.

If you want an idea of how long a minute is, try staring at a clock for a minute and see how bored you get.

I'm not going to stand for huge loading times next gen as well. Long load times are meant to be a thing of the past. But Sony is making sure that's not the case by insisting on using Blu Ray drives when the technology (and their read speeds) are still so early.

On top of this, Playstation 3 Blu Ray drive will cost Gamers $100+ per console. http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25901

And within 1 year, once blu-ray movies actually start coming out, the same $100 would probably buy you a far faster 4x or 8x blu-ray player that functions a lot better (compare watching dvds on a standalone player vs. on the original ps2). And do you really think that, if blu-ray does come out on top, that the 360 won't release with a version that can play bluray versions as well? Legally, as long as MS pays the same small fees that other blu ray player manufacterers pay to use sony's tech, Sony can't stop MS from putting blu ray drives in their 360s. And by then, the drives will likely be a lot cheaper, and a lot faster than the once found on the launch PS3s.

3. Opting for 8 USB ports and multiple memory card readers over a HDD.

There's no reason to put in like 8 usb ports and all these freaking memory card reader and all these other ports that no one wants. We can buy a memory card adapter if we want.

We don't need 3 ethernet ports, one will be more than plenty. JUST INCLUDE 4 USB 2.O PORTS, 1 ETHERNET PORT, SUPPORT FOR SONY MEMORY STICK DUOS (since that's what psp uses and that's what makes Sony the most money) AND THE STUFF TO CONNECT TO ANALOG AND HDTVS.

USE THE MANUFACTURING COSTS YOU SAVE TO THROW IN A CHEAP 5GB HDD so developers can make games like Blinx or FFXI or use the HDD to reduce load times and stuff.

IF A SMALL HDD IS INCLUDED IN EVERY SYSTEM, EVERY DEVELOPER WILL USE IT TO REDUCE LOAD TIMES. Don't you guys want developers to use the hdd to reduce loadtimes, to make games like FFXI that require a HDD? wouldn't that be better than a bunch of useless ports that no one will use that you can just buy an adapter for if you really need?

SELL THE ADAPTER TO CONNECT OLD PS2 AND PS1 GAMES SEPERATELY FOR LIKE $10 AND YOU'LL MAKE ENOUGH TO COMPENSATE FOR THE HDD. Once we transfer all our old saves over to the HDD, we can just sell it on ebay or something and it's one less ugly port we have to look at.

HDD = Custom soundtracks, downloadable content, FFXI style mmorpgs, faster load times.

Multiple seperate Memory Card Readers Built in = Worthless

4. Sony disabling the ability to have LAN parties (without getting wired controllers) by insisting on using bluetooth controllers over Infrared ones.

"Bain admitted that the wireless signal could be interfered with by another nearby PlayStation 3 console and in those instances where many consoles would be close by, such as at a LAN party, it would be necessary to default to using wired controllers"

5. The Cell.

Not only is the cell processor going to jack up the price of the PS3 quite a bit. It's greatly bottlenecked by the 512 MBs of L2 Cache (the 360 has twice that much L2 Cache).

For all the hype about the cell. Guess what, the processor means jack when it comes to gaming. 3 3.2 ghz cores vs. 1 3.2 ghz core and 7 PPEs mean nothing. What matters for gaming is the GPU. And most reports (anandtech etc.) state that the 360's graphics card is almost a generation more advanced. This makes sense, ATI built the card from the ground up with technology that won't make it's way into PC cards for atleast an year or so. The NVIDEA card in the PS3 is identical to the card as what'll be available for the PC in a month or two. The only thing that the cpu will actually matter for is the AI. And AI is more depenedent on L2 cache (this is what ultimately determines the number of simultanous algorithms you can run at any one time) than on processing speed. And guess what, the 360's has twice the L2 cache of the PS3's Cell!

6. No requirement to make developers use 720p.

People make the ps3s 1080i sound like it's going to be standard. All that sony said was the the PS3 supports aka. can theoretically output 1080i.

Guess what, the original xbox "supports" 720p (identical to how the ps3 will "support" 1080i).

Want to guess how many xbox games actually came out offering 720p? I'll give you one guess.

Want to take a guess how many ps3 games wil actually offer 1080i (Or the even more useless dual monitor output) esp. considering how much extra work it'll be to render everything at that resolution for two monitors - as if the PS3's measily 512 L2 Cache isn't already enough of a bottleneck?

The cool thing about the 360 is that all the games are required to support 720p, and considering that's a MUCH MUCH MUCH higher resolution than dvds, it's more than enough.

7. Accessible cost

Blu-ray wont be cheap! Cell won't be cheap! Odds are, when the PS3 finally does come out, MS will lower the price a bit and the PS3 will cost a small fortune by comparison. The discs cost a small fortune to manufacture, don't expect games under $70 atleast for an year or so, and if then you consider the development costs who knows!

8.The Games.

Well this one is kind of a toss up. The Xbox 360's Kameo, Enchant Arm, Perfect Dark (drool), RE5, Gears of War, Blue Dragon, Oblivion, FPS, Racers (Forza, PGR), DoA etc. vs. GTA 4 and whatever sequels Sony has planned. What is true is the the 360s gaming library will get a one year headstart, and the PS3's will probably take a long time to catch up, if ever.

9. The Design.

Well this is personal opinion too. But who came with the brilliant idea to model it after a building anyways? Fire them and make it look next gen. My old Atari Jaguar looks less crappy. YOU CALL THAT A NEXT GEN DESIGN!? There is really no symmetry to it at all. Put the drive in the middle, get rid of the weird ridges and make it actually look smooth in the front and back and well. Then you have a nextgen looking consoles.

IT REALLY WOULDN'T TAKE MANY ALTERATIONS TO MAKE THE CONSOLE LOOK AWESOME, GET RID OF THE RIDGES SO ITS LOOKS PERFECTLY SMOOTH ON THE FRONT AND THE BACK, MOVE THE CD TRAY TO THE MIDDLE TO MAKE THE CONSOLE SYMMETRICAL. IT WOULD LOOK AWESOME.

10. Developer Hell.

No one has any experience working with the Cell. 7 PPEs, seriously, you think any developer is going to have any idea how to utilize them? Just making a game that uses dual processors takes a 50% larger budget. Meanwhile, developers are already raving about how much easier Microsoft's standards and XNA development kits are making it to develop 360 games. And it's a heck of a lot cheaper to manufacture the discs too. Even small developers with just $100,000 can make their own game and sell it via Xbox Live marketplace.

And as already mentioned the L2 cache of the PS3's cell in miniscule. Most PC processors and the 360's processor have twice the cache. To make a processor with half the cache and expect it to be shared among 7 PPEs is just asking for developers to curse Sony day and night.

On top of all this, by the time the PS3 launches, developers will have had loads of experience of utilizing the 360. Expect the 2nd generation 360 games using much smaller budgets to blow the first generation PS3 games out of the water graphically.
source here

just for ur reading ...kekeke


ikanayam
post Nov 29 2005, 10:29 PM

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He has some points, but when it comes to the more technical parts he craps out. The PS3 Cell will have 1 PPE and 7 SPEs, not 7 PPEs. Also the SPEs each have 256KB of their own local storage, so not everything has to be shared in the L2 cache. Even the XB360's 1mb cache is quite tiny IMHO, especially considering it will be shared by 3 cores. They should have gone for 2MB at least.

But yeah, i'm expecting the PS3 specs to either be cut down or cost a bomb (unless Sony is willing to lose a LOT of money selling each console).
snipersnake
post Dec 2 2005, 06:28 PM

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lucky ps3 also have mgs4 and gt5.
RiCHBoyZ
post Dec 3 2005, 03:33 PM

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dah ade org modde....

user posted image

thumbup.gif
Mr.LKM
post Dec 3 2005, 05:12 PM

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QUOTE(RiCHBoyZ @ Dec 3 2005, 03:33 PM)
dah ade org modde....

user posted image

thumbup.gif
*
I think he should add some neon tubes. thumbup.gif
Tm89
post Dec 3 2005, 05:23 PM

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QUOTE(eone @ Nov 25 2005, 03:39 PM)
its a virtual reality head gogle thinghy la.. something like this thing:
user posted image

thant once nintendo apply it on their vboy.. but at that time only capable drawing monochrome(red) and huge..

well the hmd technology is going cheaper now..
*
i heard due to its monochrome red..it causes a boy death...
long time story....
lightning69
post Dec 3 2005, 06:10 PM

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QUOTE(wcliang @ Nov 29 2005, 09:30 PM)
source here

just for ur reading ...kekeke
*
Whatever....if you like XBOX 360..good for you. I have both the XBOX and the PS2 but i simply prefer the PS2 simply because i prefer the games available on the PLAYSTATION. I really enjoy games like Shadow of the Collosus, God of War, GT4, Jak & Daxter, Sly Cooper, Devil May Cry, Socom, Onimusha, Tekken, Ratchet & Clank, Mark of Kri, ICO and many etc which is only for Sony. On the other hand the only XBOX game that i really like is Halo, Ninja Gaiden & DOA. Most other game that are good are also available on the PS2.

So i will wait for the PS3. Playstation = games, great games!!!

Godevil
post Dec 5 2005, 03:23 PM

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Anyone one can predict how much will PS3 cost...

need to prepare to be the first batch user in malaysia.... laugh.gif
navilink
post Dec 6 2005, 03:34 PM

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hahaha...looks like Revolution still has some nuclear bomb yet to be dropped... :

Miyamoto: Revolution still has secrets

what else the controller holds? maybe a HOLOGRAM function?!?!??!!
SUSMatrix
post Dec 7 2005, 09:50 AM

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The secret of the Revolution....it is actually a PS3 in disguise and will be able to play all the PS3 games!!!! SONY is now shaking in their boots....LOL.

Or maybe it's just a toaster in disguise??

btw, here's more about Revolution, seems like it's an XBOX 1.5:

http://www.nintendojo.com/infocus/view_item.php?1133835162

Revolution Not Much More Powerful Than Xbox
12/5/2005, 9:12pm Eastern Time

"To be honest, it's not much more powerful than an Xbox. It's like a souped-up Xbox," said one third party developer to IGN. Yet the developer still seemed satisfied with the controller's unique capabilities.

In terms of power, some third parties have stated Revolution will have about 128 MB of RAM, while others say nearly triple the amount in the GameCube. Nevertheless, either number is still less than what's in Xbox 360.

Again, the anonymous developers still seemed very pleased with the controller and are trying to come up with unique gameplay concepts that can translate to games. The focus as Nintendo had originally intended was not on horsepower but games, and developers sound ready to deliver.
(as)

This post has been edited by Matrix: Dec 7 2005, 09:55 AM
snipersnake
post Dec 8 2005, 12:59 PM

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ps2 was lower than xbox's spec..its the games that count...the GAMES/!
shamnemesis
post Dec 8 2005, 05:19 PM

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x-box 360 has been launched in Us last 22 November .. the graphic was more vivid and superb if compare with the x-box ... by next year it will arrive in malaysia hopefully .. but i would wait for Sony ps 3 instead of x-box because sony is master of consoles gaming and many choices of games ..
Mr.LKM
post Dec 8 2005, 05:42 PM

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QUOTE(shamnemesis @ Dec 8 2005, 05:19 PM)
x-box 360 has been launched in Us last 22 November .. the graphic was more vivid and superb if compare with the x-box ... by next year it will arrive in malaysia hopefully .. but i would wait for Sony ps 3 instead of x-box because sony is master of consoles gaming and many choices of games ..
*
You can't compare a PS3 to Xbox. Moreover, the first launch of PS3 won't be having many games for you to choose. However, the price of PS3 will be very high. You should take a look of xbox360, it's worth for you to check out. smile.gif
lightning69
post Dec 8 2005, 07:31 PM

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QUOTE(shamnemesis @ Dec 8 2005, 05:19 PM)
x-box 360 has been launched in Us last 22 November .. the graphic was more vivid and superb if compare with the x-box ... by next year it will arrive in malaysia hopefully .. but i would wait for Sony ps 3 instead of x-box because sony is master of consoles gaming and many choices of games ..
*
Sony make great games...keep it up & i will support you all the way.

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