Alright man, I'll stop. Strong as you deemed they were, I ain't one to sugarcoat my words just because wieners can't take it. Its a fact, and they know it, that's all.

As to get back on topic ;
Faith in religion is merely a pillar for which people hold on to. Some need it to get through life, some don't. I may be a Christian, but I don't solely depend on God to help me live my life.

Exactly. We don't need to depend solely on God. We have to make an effort, and the rest it will be on God's will to make it happen or not.
What you are doing is right..

What I meant is, YOU have to find concrete proof that the creator exists. There are so many possibilies conjured up by various philosophies that are against the concept of creator if you ask me, one of it is what we had been discussing earlier - existentialism.

But then, concrete proof that the creator exists is hard to find. Most people who believe in the creator does not know why they do so, especially people who inherited religions from their forefathers like Muslims, Buddhist etc. That's really sad.

Based on my perspective, I will not blindly follow anything even in a religion.
If I was born and raised as a Muslim, I have to study the religion to make sure I'm following a right one.
I love science since I was a kid. Science is the one who really makes me believe in the Creator.

Ask Albert Einstein, Isaac Newton or Da Vinci. It's because of science that makes them believe more on the creator..

sorry, logic fail.

communist are atheist = true

however,

atheist are communist = false

therefore please dont call atheist communists.

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Added on November 17, 2009, 11:44 pmthere is no "creator" in buddhism, neither is there "holy energy". didn't you also say you "studied" many religions?

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Added on November 17, 2009, 11:53 pmbolded sentence, congratulations, you just contradicted yourself in one post

moving on, since energy cant be created nor destroyed, it must have existed forever in different form.

please dont say it cant, for your so-called god existed forever too.

This post has been edited by lin00b: Nov 17 2009, 11:53 PM

No one is claiming the other way round here. Please read carefully.

religion is not just limited to the monotheism religion (ie abrahamic)

you have polytheism;
you have superior beings who are when you look at it, not *that* superior;
you have animism;
and you have religion with no god as its centerpiece (see buddhism, pantheism, etc)

also

in reply to my post #47

and now you say in post #106

to my post #105

???

This post has been edited by lin00b: Nov 18 2009, 12:14 AM

Wrong there, buddy. It's a theory and no one knows whether it's a fact yet. It's generally accepted in the scientific community even though it is very flawed. Try plasma cosmology...Though i admit i have yet to understand it fully, it is more plausible.

Smart usage of the word Creator. Einstein did not believe in God. It's good if you can make science & religion meet. Without bending either one to make the fit. Thus far, hasn't been achieved.

"Or maybe you have a concrete proof that the creator does not exist?"

Or maybe you have concrete proof that the flying spaghetti monster does not exist? There is no proof that God doesn't exist. There is no proof that God exists. You say you believe in science. You say you spread your truth. Obviously your reasoning is flawed. Your truths are misleading assumptions. Great job confusing people!

Oh, & just because so-and-so smart people believed in God does not mean they are right. They are highly intelligent but they strive to give a meaning to the things we see around us simply because they can't figure out how things began. This is called Aesthetics. & we all know that aesthetics are shallow

Can we not lose sight on the topic at hand. It whether humans can or cannot live without religion. This isn't a believers vs non believers debate. Or maybe I'm just too wishful to hope that such a thread won't degenerate into a does god exist debate. No offense.

Believing in god from what I understand does not necessarily mean believing or belonging to any particular religion. Right so anyone can believe in god yet reject religion. I believe the answer tends to lie more towards human sociology than faith of any kind really.

PS : I believe there is a strong tendency to flock towards what we find similar to us(a sort of herd mentality). Hence people of a certain region believing in particular religion or whatever mystical believe. Of course there is also the political reasons for certain religions to pop up(such as injustice of a tyrannical empire, out comes a sense of hope). Also religion can and has been used as a way to control society(imparts some form of governance for the state to take advantage of)

I may disappoint some by saying this, but I believe there will always be some form of religion even in the future. There will always be someone trying to gather people into their group for whatever reason. Hard times will always seem to encourage more of these sort of people.

Hey if you look at the bright side of things, at least you can say humans are quite creative creatures.

This post has been edited by frags: Nov 18 2009, 01:03 AM

Annariana...Can i add u in facebook???I am impress by your wisdom and thought..I too enjoy philosophy, but never got the chance to study it...But i do construct my own thought....haha

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Added on November 18, 2009, 2:16 amEinstein did not believe in Personal GOd....Einstein was an agnostic...Not atheis...LOL...There is something caught in between Science and religion....THerefore science and religion are two different things, but they could somehow get related in someway...Spirituality??? Scientist are more preferable to use Intelligent design rather than GOD on unconcluded Idea such as DNA and Stephen Hawkins' Theory of universe....Just trying to contribute something



PLz plz anyone who interested in philosophy should add me in facebook (stephenhuong@hotmail.com)....I want to know you...I could not construcct any further thought or idea without discussing it ...I am thirst for people get involved in philosophy, actually never saw one...How sad it is..i thought there would be no one in this country, but it seem some people prove otherwise

This post has been edited by communist892003: Nov 18 2009, 02:20 AM

I was trying to remind some people about that, but they remained adamant about their stand. Therefore I just couldn't be bothered after.

The thread was initially about debating on or giving points as to whether society has a need for religion. Why it turned into believer vs non-believer one, I do not know nor understand. I think its about time this thread is closed, it has, derailed far from the original purpose intended and I believe we've gotten enough insight on the subject matter.

Ball is in your hands TS or the moderators.

This post has been edited by ZeratoS: Nov 18 2009, 04:20 AM

Sorry for the misunderstanding, damn people can be really harsh about that isn't it? What he said made me see this equation communism = atheism. Thus I tried to help with facts as your question seem to question that. Cool it down.

And yes, I am well aware that religion is not limited to monotheisms. And here, I am strongly encouraging anyone who could find answers to those atheismic questions I put on that posts in the perspective of polytheisms, as I am really unable to whip out any answers with the no-mention. If you're capable of showing your aggravation, you'll be capable on answering questions like that too



Good kickbacks. There are some science-and-religion-meet facts that are not aesthetical available e.g Bucaille to quote the controversial, but then the poster seems not to know anything about that. So it is not worth bashing as he does not really know what is he talking about, not enough reading I guess. And people like that are comfortable using aesthetics.

Please do not respond when those people show up - people who stated bold statements yet doesn't have facts or anything concrete to prove it here. I really don't want this to turn RWI lol, this is why I created this thread.



Thanks for the reminder frags. Kinda hard to keep the topic on track, but with the help of everybody, we'll manage. Won't be such a wishful thought anymore



Thanks for the offer mate, but I think we'll pass on philosophical discussions here? Lots of people are interested in philosophy, just that it is not something we can easily talk on in life - too many biased/ close minded thinking.

its ok... buddhist always test buddha sutta rather than believe it...

I think what you miss is the key word.. "think of the past" rather than "recalling pleasurable moments of the past"

we recall the past on how we behave as the past is our only teacher, our mentor.. what we think now is from the past and what we plan ahead if according to the future...

what buddha said is we human always think of how we enjoy in the past and hope to enjoy like this in the future and we start imagining and hoping that we will always be like the past.. which we cant...



what is reality ?? according to you?? even I am a budhist and always read buddha`s sutta, and know the reality by concept, still cant really experience it.. its like the movie matrix... morpheous said "there`s a difference of knowingthe path and walking the path"

I should be ashamed as my mandarin just got a E in SPM

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Added on November 18, 2009, 9:30 amI think the difference here is that here in this board, GOD is treated as a hypothesis to be judge rather than supreme being that is taboo and not our right to judge HIUM

This post has been edited by Awakened_Angel: Nov 18 2009, 09:30 AM

Pardon me but, I am under the impression that you are very inclined to think that pure spirituality cannot exist within a religion, or at least, maybe, you are under the impression that religion practitioners do not lean towards this "pure" spirituality" which you've mentioned.

This post has been edited by Deadlocks: Nov 18 2009, 09:33 AM

Well actually my intention is to find out how you get into philosophy or where u study it...I really wan to get into philosophy but i had no idea...Just by disccussing and constructing thought wasn't enough seriously...There is still so many terms that i do not know...Maybe by knowing you, i can know more philosopher through you??? I dont think it is appropriate to ask about you at here while u guys are busy discussing the topic...And i dont have the intention to interrupt in this topic because u guys had went so far...

Let get to the point, i wan to learn from you

This post has been edited by communist892003: Nov 18 2009, 02:57 PM

Uhh many of u strayed from the original topic edi...anyway I'll get back to topic.

My answer to TS topic is yes, humans can live without religion. But humans will always try become more superior and it usually ends in their own utter destruction. I said that because humans will try to become the Almighty One and that's where the problem begins.

Just take a look at our Earth, she's getting very sick now due to our ignorance towards minimal pollution while being advance in science and technology.

Just take a look at the many wars that are happening around the world right now. Many people are dying because of greed for wealth and power.

Just take a look at the many broken families in our world. People are dropping in and out of relationships leaving their kids to suffer and become like their parents in the future.

Religion acts as a deterrent to limit/control all the mentioned above (I must apologize if I miss out other points).

I certainly don't think that way mate. Spirituality is in fact an aspect in religion, but in real life, not many religious practitioners lean towards pure spirituality. I daresay more than 80% of religious practitioners get spiritual, but then they don't get purely spiritual - like searching for nirvana by monkhood in Buddhism, ma'rifah by sufism in Islam and going to abbeys, priesthoods in Christianity. If a lot of religion practitioners lean towards pure spirituality, there will be a lot of monks, sufis and priests by now. But then I'm not saying there aren't people who doesn't commit that does not acquire pure spirituality, there are. But this are seldom seen. And actually "pure spirituality" has no definite yardstick, it's up to those people who see the levels and stages of it. In my personal opinion, and some others, I think of pure spirituality in religion as a total submission towards the religion, to acquire spirituality. E.g priesthood, monks, sufis, they spend all their time searching for spirituality in their respective religions. What do you think?

In my opinion, in spirituality and religion, there are few types of people :

1. People who are religious and spiritual : monks, priests, sufis. They find their spiritual aspect throughout religion
2. People who are religious, but not so spiritual : normal religious people who find their spiritual refuge through religion. e.g those people in Bible study groups, people who never missed their prayers etc
3. People who are religious, but not spiritual : People who mostly inherit their religion through their forefathers. Do prayers, visit temples churches mosques out of habit/ parental demands, but then never really thought of Godly relationships/ spirituality.
4. People who are spiritual, but not religious : People who search for spirituality via various ways - yoga, meditation. They don't have a religion, nor inclined to any religion, but they feel the need of being spiritual. These people will say "I don't need religion, but I need the spirituality."
5. People who are not spiritual and are not religious, but philosophical : Those people does not like religion, does not believe in God, but they respect and practise the wisdom and philosophy in religion e.g Buddhism's wisdom, Islam, Judaism and Christianity values like eating kosher, no pork and booze - they like the wisdom and philosophy in religion, but then they don't get spiritual because they don't believe in God and they don't want to be tied in a religion. These people will say "I don't need religion nor the spirituality." e.g Existentialists
6. People who just doesn't care : These kind are the most ignorant, I daresay. They do not like the topic of religion, spirituality nor philosophy. They live their life, led by power, money and humanity e.g pity, sadness, emotions etc.

Add up, people. This is my personal opinion, add up if you think these are incomplete. I think this will summarize why some people need religion, and why some people don't.

Getting back to the original track LOL, but thanks for keeping to the original topic.

THumb up up for annariana....I do learn a lot from you...i prefer to be observer

I don't doubt it actually I believe religion will exist as long as the human species lives. Honestly though, imagining a world without religion paints a very bleak portrait for me...

I said Einstein didn't believe in God, not that he's an atheist. That's what i meant by smart usage of the word creator I'm interested but i'm noob too haha. Mind if i ask your age?


Uhm wait. The earth dying has nothing to do with religion. Don't you think that instead of just revering God, we should try to be like God. Buddhism teaches that we are all Buddhas and i prefer that ideology as well...Why not strive for perfection? Though the perfection i mean isn't the "I shall rule the world" kind.

I don't think religion acts as a deterrent to pollution at all. Kindly explain? Though perhaps if properly practiced, (sorry lah but a good chunk of ppl contributing to wars and greed are theists) the world will be more peaceful.
Agreed with the family bit though. Religion sort of brings a sense of brotherhood that i really like It's that warm and fuzzy feeling that everything connects, everything makes sense. But wait, almost forgetting how some religions do break families apart as parents won't accept homosexual children and all...Honestly, that is a big deal.

So well, again do Humans Need Religion? Individually, i guess the answer would be some. But as a species, human as a whole, i would say no.

This post has been edited by pllx: Nov 18 2009, 06:14 PM