Oh pardon me Controversies can always make up people's perceptions you know. Like when people mention MJ and they think of children molestation lol Sorry if I was wrong.

But here's something interesting I googled up. Catholic sex abuse cases. Catholics are really big on sex abuse after all lol. No offense ya.

I don't have a specific religion I refer to, as this is supposed to be a general philosophic topic. What I can say is that religion is all about believing in God and divinity.

Religion has been abused, yes you're right. No offense for Catholics here, I only highlighted that specific Wikipedia topic as it really amused me at some point, Catholic is so controversial on the sex abuse issue lol.

If human can work well without religion, why religion still exist then?

This is what the muslims say - Why Can't I Eat Pork - IslamOnline

And these are the verifications I found on the net on their scientific reasons not to eat pork -
Pork Contains Worms And Causes Diseases?
Pork's Dirty Secret (er, it's on pigs' environmental issues. i found it related somehow)

No offense for pork eaters yeah, this is just something I wanted to share. Comments welcome, correct me if I'm wrong

my definition of religion isn't so different from yours. I think of religion as a moral control factor, and also a way of life - that's the point that is different from your POV.

Lol I'm a malay, just that I understand other races as much as they want to be understood haha, whatever that is 
I like that statement. "Religion makes you want to be good" 

But then, another common thing every religion have instead of morality is actually spirituality. Do you think spirituality is something men need?

Now I wish I'm a moderator, little daredevil 

TS have you ever hoped that you are blessed when going for exam?
Have you ever hoped that you are blessed when you are sick?

Religion is religion, and culture is culture. Not all religions are derived from culture. Religions that has "holy books from god" are not cultural. And the Godly "figure" aren't just a figure, you know, they aren't just cough syrup bottles (a figure) you call God.

@Awakened_Angel,

What I meant by spirituality is how you connect with God, like how God'll bless you, and you'll think of God when you have trouble. Spirituality is in another word, how you feel the God is there for you via practises like prayers, meditations etc. And yes your manager is right, some people define spirituality as the 'other' world. I'm very fascinated with Wikipedia's definition of Spirituality


I wonder why?

I also believe that every religion is the same. That there is one God the creator. Its just we worship God different way and call God by different names. Its like language. It has the same meaning but different way of saying it.

For others, like buddism its a way of life which I believe is a good practic also.

Fear IS your only God.

it is fear that makes man take up religion.ask yourself this one question and be honest with yourself;

Why do you pray to God? Is it for longer life? more money? a new car/house/partner? or that the cancer cells will dissolve from a loved one? no hungry children in Africa? for global warming to stop? or that God gives you a safe passage to heaven? We pray because we fear the outcome of whats to happen.

This is why we have religion, to grant hope to mere mortals like ourselves to get by day after day after day on this existence we call life.

Then how do u say we can compare and serach which is the best religion? So if you comapred and say islam is the best religion. DOes it mean i am on the lower class religion if i am a christian? This is

"Religion is the sub of culture"

I think it's the other way round? Culture is a sub of religion. Christianity doesn't emerge from culture, isn't it？

The phrase they used when they say "god power" them, I think it's just a metaphor, what they meant is that the thought of God makes em energized? Lol I'm not a fan of self help books haha 

@f4te: asking about whether humans NEED religion has nothing to do with which religion is as you put it, 'best'. Look at the word "need" in the larger sense of the word. It's not like "I need my morning coffee" or "I need you in my life". Without that coffee/person, we CAN live but it's just something we have to grow above/ adjust to. We need religion like we need coffee. It helps us a lot and the world will be in an uproar if they lost coffee but we will live. Hence, we don't need coffee.

So here, we're not talking about which religion is best for you - that's up to you to do your homework. We're talking about whether we need religion or not. And if we do, should we follow the whole religious aspects of the religion, or just take some part of it and diffuse it with another to 'create' a suitable belief for us? Do we actually need to believe the sin-and-merit concept in every religion? And a lot more. What we need, is just to keep and open mind and keep comparing and comparing until we find the answer.

It's very rude of you to stereotype that way.  Intelligence has nothing to do with religion. And the statement you just put up, it will certainly disturb a lot of people who believed in religion. Please stay out of this thread if you tend to produce that kind of indirect insult. If you just want to highlight that you don't need religion, just do so, and no such statements like if-you-believe-in-religion-your-intelligence-is-below-average.

In my opinion, the concept of God and religion are inseparable. If you believe in God, you're believing in religion.

Good question

Imma gonna Google this.

How is that spirituality cannot be related to religion itself? Or at least, related to a particular Deity?

Good question

Imma gonna Google this.

Dude,

I'll get back to you later. Philosophy needs thinking too ya LOL

Mate, it's really hard to think without referring to a certain category of religions as this involves very different concepts of God. But this is what I think, in logic. Again I refer God as something superior.

Superior Meaning and Definition

  1. (a.) Belonging to the part of an axillary flower which is toward the main stem; posterior.
  2. (a.) More elevated in place or position; higher; upper; as, the superior limb of the sun; the superior part of an image.
  3. (a.) More comprehensive; as a term in classification; as, a genus is superior to a species.
  4. (a.) Higher in rank or office; more exalted in dignity; as, a superior officer; a superior degree of nobility.
  5. (a.) Above the ovary; -- said of parts of the flower which, although normally below the ovary, adhere to it, and so appear to originate from its upper part; also of an ovary when the other floral organs are plainly below it in position, and free from it.
  6. (n.) The head of a monastery, convent, abbey, or the like.
  7. (a.) Beyond the power or influence of; too great or firm to be subdued or affected by; -- with to.
  8. (a.) Pointing toward the apex of the fruit; ascending; -- said of the radicle.
  9. (n.) One who is above, or surpasses, another in rank, station, office, age, ability, or merit; one who surpasses in what is desirable; as, Addison has no superior as a writer of pure English.
  10. (a.) Higher or greater in excellence; surpassing others in the greatness, or value of any quality; greater in quality or degree; as, a man of superior merit; or of superior bravery.

In other words, God as a deity - Deity - Monotheism

"In some cases, especially the monotheistic Abrahamic god or the supreme deity of henotheistic religions, the divine entity is not thought of by some believers in the same terms as deities - as a powerful, anthropomorphic supernatural being - but rather becomes esoteric, the reification of a philosophical category - the Ultimate, the Absolute Infinite, the Transcendent, the One, the All, Existence, or Being itself, the ground of being, the monistic substrate, etc."
Thus, as God is the Ultimate, the Absolute Infinite et cetera, he is not the same as us. He is more superior than human, means he does not have feelings like being lonely, sad, horny, constipated et cetera. Give this example a thought : if God can feel lonely, of course he is the same like us as we feel lonely too. If we can shit, of course God can shit too right? If we can die, God dies too right? OMG your God dies

Of course God don't feel lonely, as he couldn't shit or he couldn't die. He is the ultimate, the most supreme, that's why human call him God. Thus the statement of "God created us because he is lonely" does not fill in the criterias why we must call him God. And you know, if we kinda think of it, God doesn't have a son too, because God doesn't have sex, he's different and more supreme than us. No offense to Christians, but I used to question a lot of religions including mine.

Okay, lets not stray away. The main question is actually, why God created us to worship him?
Answers later. I'm trying my best to think like an atheist now LOL.

---

Added on November 17, 2009, 4:12 pmReferring to my previous post, let me explain the "atheistic opinion" on Why Must We Worship God.

Come to the concept of worship. In every religion, it is stated that we should worship God because of LOVE.
1. God loves us
2. We should love God too

What's the proof that God loves us?
1. The universal, cliched opinion : He created the universe for us, we should be grateful for that
2. Even though a lot of us don't believe in him, he still provide oxygen, a place to live in, not much physical threats like once-you-dont-pray-then-say-goodbye-to-life

And did it ever occured to us that we should love God back too? Who are we to expect all comforts from someone who loves us without us loving back in return? God isn't being tyrannical. He is being loving, he loves us too much and he wanted to be loved back. Sounds so humanistic for you? Let me tell you something, every religion stated that God loves us. That does not mean that the love is to spoil. There is a proverb in Bahasa Melayu, heck I can't find the equivalent in English "sayang anak tangan tangankan"。 When you love your kid, be stern with him, to teach him to be human. Let us balance this proverb in this case. God loves us too much, that he taught us to love him back, even threaten us with hell to stop us to find other Gods. This is not arrogance, this is pure Godly love. Even though a lot of human does not believe in him, he still pampers them with life, just that he showed a lot of signs and threats (hell, doom etc), so that we don't stray away from loving him. So different from humanly love.

Then, why do he created us in the first place? I'd say that he created us to find is there any of us that will love him back. This is why the concept of heaven/ nirvana is there, that's the reward for people who loved him back. How to love him back? Worship him, simple. It's like showing your love to a boyfriend, just that you don't show your boobs to prove your love, you show your prayer to love him.

And then, why, after all the worshipping, God still give us hard times like recession, tsunami, high crime rates etc?
1. This is because God wants us to love him more. When we underwent hard times in this world, we'll pray more. Prayers works spiritually, it calms you down, and you feel supported by 'something' (you'd know this if you really meditated before). The 'something' is God. God loves to be loved. I know this rationale is very abstract, but then theology itself is one abstract thing that it's really hard to think the other way round and try to answer the opposite
2. Those crimes, are caused by people who does not obey God. It's like mothering a kid. A mother set up rules and regulations for a child, e.g don't cross the road before looking left and right. But then when the child disobeys, fatal endings. It's the same on this case. God set up religion and regulations for us e.g be honest, don't steal etc. But then when we did the opposite, crime rates soared high and the world is not a better place for us.

So friends, these are what I think about why must we worship God. Correct me if you guys saw any loopholes, I know this is waaay abstract, it's not an easy question too, ya know

If you really researched before, you'll find that something as abstract like God can't be proven using science. or in other words pure humanity or existentialism.

Yeah, God is an empty word with no meaning if you minus religion AND spirituality. But then, even behavorial sciences stated that it is natural for all humans to believe in God, whether they're atheists or not, it's in human's nature. Just that they denies the feeling of having God around because they can't prove it scientifically nor rationale-minus-spirituality.

I think it is natural for us to rely on something to calm ourselves down - the need of spirituality. How to overcome the need of spirituality? Religion is the answer. But then people who feels that following a certain terms and condition in religion is lame, they'll opt for spirituality only instead.

But then, I think there are so many blank parts of spirituality, if practised without religion. I'll be very ignorant if I go all spiritual - yoga, meditation etc, without being able to answer philosophical questions about life e.g why we're created?, that is missing in spirituality alone.

I like that quote, will certainly come out in my future essays LOL  I like Buddhism philosophies. This one is in the 四圣諦 right? But then, I found some contradiction in 八正道, as the first of the 8 ways, is actually about acquiring right understanding on our originations. Correct me if I'm wrong la hor, I don't read so much in these kinda philosophies.


[

Ya hor, Rukun Negara.

Regard this as a normal conversation lah No need to be so rigid one LOL I'm not promoting you guys to be atheists!

Coincidental?

This one is in the 四圣諦 right? But then, I found some contradiction in 八正道, as the first of the 8 ways, is actually about acquiring right understanding on our originations.

I haven't take a look on the link yet.

The Noble Eightfold Path is actually an elaboration of number four in Four Noble Truths. And take a look in the first of The Noble Eightfold Path

正见 :

又作谛见。相对于妄想而言，指的是正确的佛理知见，特指具有佛说“为人悉檀”佛法的四谛知见，也就是佛教对于世间谛理与出世间第一义谛法义的如理如实智慧见地。

or

Right view

Right view (samyag-dṛṣṭi • sammā-diṭṭhi) can also be translated as "right perspective", "right vision" or "right understanding". It is the right way of looking at life, nature, and the world as they really are. It is to understand how reality works. It acts as the reasoning for someone to start practicing the path. It explains the reasons for human existence, suffering, sickness, aging, death, the existence of greed, hatred, and delusion. It gives direction and efficacy to the other seven path factors. Right view begins with concepts and propositional knowledge, but through the practice of right concentration, it gradually becomes transmuted into wisdom, which can eradicate the fetters of the mind. Understanding of right view will inspire the person to lead a virtuous life in line with right view. In the Pali and Chinese canons, it is explained thus:[15][16][17][18] [19] [20]

And what is right view? Knowledge with reference to stress (dukkha can also be translated as suffering), knowledge with reference to the origination of stress (or suffering), knowledge with reference to the cessation of stress (or suffering), knowledge with reference to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress (or suffering): This is called right view.
This is taken off from Wikipedia. I said it contradicted your quote about Buddha said something like 'forget the past, focus on the future'. Because the first principle to 'end sufferings' is actually to understand how reality works, thus we have to think of the past, before focusing on the future. That's what I meant by 'contradiction'. Sorry if it contradicts any of your understanding over the Noble Eightfold Path, as I told you I'm not very literate over Buddhism - just read some of em for the sake of interest and comparison.

Because the first principle to 'end sufferings' is actually to understand how reality works, thus we have to think of the past, before focusing on the future.

Yes, I read chinese LOL~ Took free books and CDs about these when I saw some 'high-ranked' Buddhist monks visited JB hehe 

Can we not lose sight on the topic at hand. It whether humans can or cannot live without religion. This isn't a believers vs non believers debate. Or maybe I'm just too wishful to hope that such a thread won't degenerate into a does god exist debate. No offense.

Believing in god from what I understand does not necessarily mean believing or belonging to any particular religion. Right so anyone can believe in god yet reject religion. I believe the answer tends to lie more towards human sociology than faith of any kind really.

PS : I believe there is a strong tendency to flock towards what we find similar to us(a sort of herd mentality). Hence people of a certain region believing in particular religion or whatever mystical believe. Of course there is also the political reasons for certain religions to pop up(such as injustice of a tyrannical empire, out comes a sense of hope). Also religion can and has been used as a way to control society(imparts some form of governance for the state to take advantage of)

I may disappoint some by saying this, but I believe there will always be some form of religion even in the future. There will always be someone trying to gather people into their group for whatever reason. Hard times will always seem to encourage more of these sort of people.

Hey if you look at the bright side of things, at least you can say humans are quite creative creatures.

Good view.

Actually, this varies in several religions. In Buddhism, hardworking and honest, good people does not go to hell, they just won't get to be the highest stage of Buddha. Correct me on this? And in Islam, children are considered clean with no sins, until the stage that they're mature enough to think, specifically after puberty. Other religions are off my hands.

So it is really an act of balancing and believing it. If you don't believe religion, you can still be a good human being.

bad analogy, as there are places where humans will not survive without clothing. same cant be said about religion.

continuing on your clothing analogy, 200 years ago, clothing covers everything. today, clothing are getting mroe and more revealing by the day. (aka religion is becoming increasingly irrevelant)