Yes, humans need religion because it creates social stability (: how? - it governs the way we see things wheter it is right or wrong. Stealing, murder, rape were all first religious views on what was considered "sinful" before it became a law

I know a lot of atheist and those whole believe in higher power =X

1. "Don't you think that instead of just revering God, we should try to be like God."

Good philosophy. But really, this theory is not applicable to all religions I'd like to add something. Instead of following what God says blindly, try to find the wisdom of it and practise using the cause we derived. In other words, find logic and do your own translation on your respective religious transcript, rather than just read e.g the Sutra without questioning the wisdom inside.

2. "I don't think religion acts as a deterrent to pollution at all. Kindly explain? Though perhaps if properly practiced, (sorry lah but a good chunk of ppl contributing to wars and greed are theists) the world will be more peaceful."

One of religion's purpose is indeed, as a deterrent to human behavior. This purpose can only be achieved if the individual are strong in spirituality + religion, not religious alone. The war-creator and the greedy are those people who practice religion, but aren't spiritual. Spirituality's purpose in religion, is actually to 'cleanse our hearts', if I put it theological.

3. "Agreed with the family bit though. Religion sort of brings a sense of brotherhood that i really like."

Indeed! But then I'd like to stress on the importance of inter-religion relationships too. I do think religion can cause some sort of a civil theistic war if this aspect is not fulfilled e.g the Crusades. So are the relationship between theistic people and atheists.

4. "So well, again do Humans Need Religion? Individually, i guess the answer would be some. But as a species, human as a whole, i would say no."

So you'd come to your conclusion. I think I really should make a poll out of this LOL.


We're already came this far. So now, I have 1 question for you to answer, directly. No straying. Please answer according to your own belief, I know we have Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, atheists, agnostics, whatever beliefs here. I don't want to be general, just state what you believe so that we can SHARE the knowledge of different perspectives here. NO DEBATES please. And, please answer in 123s.

Example :

I need religion because :
1.
2.
3.
4.


Question:

So you need religion. Why do you need religion? What aspect of YOUR religion do you need in your life, and what aspect that you don't need, and why? Please answer according to your own religion and beliefs, do NOT BE GENERAL.

or

So you do not need religion. What about religion that is so against your logic? Do you need the spirituality? If you do, why only the spirituality? And what change will spirituality do to your life? What do you think about people who are religious?

or

So you do not need religion, and God does not exist. Why do you have that logic? Why spirituality does not matter? What do you think about life after death, being an atheist? What do you think about people who are religious?



I hope you guys will contribute. Strongly, NO DEBATE AND NO PREACHING PLEASE. I do this for us to see the different perspectives of our thinking on this topic, so that you guys will understand each other better. NO LABELLING ANY RELIGION OF ANYTHING SENSITIVE e.g EXTREMISTS, FUNDAMENTALIST etc, you know IT'S NOT ETHICAL THAT WAY.


Answers please~

This post has been edited by annariana: Nov 18 2009, 07:56 PM

aiyo, my knowledge on buddhism very failed!

nway, you said that energy must have existed forever. Wrong, scientist can't explain where did the energy from bigbang came from. They can only theorize that at the beginning, there was a big bang, but they can't explain what happens before the beginning. In science, everything must have a beginning. No such thing as forever..

If people can see the flying spaghetti monster, then it definitely exist. But the problem is, no one sees the spaghetti monster.
We can see the prove of the creator by looking at the unique and wonderful creations He have done.

Let's just look at the "needs" alone. Nothing else.

Before we ask if human needs religion, why not ask what are human needs in the first place, then explore if religion fulfills those needs.

Half a century ago, Abraham Maslow (one of the pioneers in humanistic psychologist) published the concept of "hierarchy of human needs":

1) Physiological Needs - basic needs that are vital to survival, such as the need for water, air, food and sleep
2) Security Needs - include needs for safety and security. Security needs are important for one survival
3) Social Needs - needs for belonging, love and affection. Relationships such as friendships, romantic attachments and families help fulfill this need for companionship and acceptance, as does involvement in social and community
4) Esteem Needs - include the need for things that reflect on self-esteem, personal worth, social recognition and accomplishment
5) Self-actualizing Needs - self-aware, concerned with personal growth, meaningfulness

I first encountered this hierarchy of needs in university under economics subject. It was taught to marketing students as a basis for understanding consumers' motives for action. Marketers have historically looked towards consumers' needs to define their actions in the market.

From marketing perpestive, customer is willing to accept a product (eg television) or services (foot massage) if the price they pay is reasonable compare to what values they get.

If we looks into human needs above, apart from the fundamental needs, religion somehow providing a platform to fulfills some of those needs.

Just like any other product and services in the market, when there are demands for it, the supply would remains.

By taking out the supernatural aspects from the religion, the values that religion provides are friendship, festive celebration, gathering, having fun, trust, sense of involvement, being part of a group.

Most importantly, it is a platform for emotion pacifier when uncertainty, challenges and fear of unknown strikes oneself in the middle of the crossroad.

Can those needs be fulfill without the idea of religion, the answer is definitely a yes. Except the supernatural aspects, every other values that religion provides can be addressed in social and community services.

Why religion is still out there if we have other means to fulfill our needs? We all already know that we grown up in a society which have religion ideology and also infrastructures to suppose those ideology around the neighbourhood. Rather than reinvent the wheel, human just continue utilizing what already out there to fulfill their needs.

So your answer is?

Human need religion, but does not need spirituality/ God?

Define the 'supernatural', mate And if I were you, I won't take Maslow's hierarchy, it doesn't fit the toll of religious needs as good as it fit in analysing consumers needs. And Maslow's definition of 'self actualization' on top of the hierarchy is kinda loosely defined too.

But then, no hierarchy can explain this, not even Erikson's 8 Stages of Life. Are there any other hierarchys I missed out?

This post has been edited by annariana: Nov 18 2009, 08:26 PM

if anything, the crux of human nature rejects religion, but somehow religion never disappears.

Uhm, so well should i just *CO-google fallacy,dude. that's what your post is. That and contradiction,too-UGH*ignore this? Haha...He doesn't seem to get it I may post up my points later though i think i've a number of them scattered over this thread.

Just let go of it dude, it's off topic anyway, no use for rebuttal if he can't see the fact of what you're trying to say.

He was the one who destroyed the discussion, plus he has a disregard for the rules

My cousin posed a question pertaining to the subject matter though, she was wondering what happens to us past death. And that, my friends, is one of the reasons humans want religion or have it. Fear, in other words, causes humans to want to believe that they will and can go to a better place, though we obviously have no conclusive proof of such.

Well, no one can give an accurate answer there...It's all a matter of belief cause as you've said there's no conclusive proof of even an "us-after-death".

Correct me if i'm wrong:
Christian view: Heaven or Hell based on whether we've truly repented/ committed suicide etc... One question though, do we wait for the day of judgement before going to heaven/hell?

Buddhist view: There are several levels of heaven just as there are several levels of hell. And in between there's reincarnation(this branches out to human,animal,insect etc based on karma) and being sent back into the world as a Hungry ghost. Only humans can go to heaven, but hey if you're reborn as an insect, try again next life. Or the next few hundred. Eventually though, everyone will become Buddhas which we all once were.

Atheist view: We disappear? Though this is a generalization...

Yes and this is where religion is perverted. What about those who cannot embrace religion or have not had the chance to? Think of the unborn babies who've died, those in the jungles, and so forth. Hardworking and honest to goodness people who have done little wrong in their lives. Are these people, especially the children condemned to hell just because they have not accepted the religion?

Do you see the flaws in religion now?

Good view.

Actually, this varies in several religions. In Buddhism, hardworking and honest, good people does not go to hell, they just won't get to be the highest stage of Buddha. Correct me on this? And in Islam, children are considered clean with no sins, until the stage that they're mature enough to think, specifically after puberty. Other religions are off my hands.

There still exists flaws in all religions, and certainly we could point them out were we to scrutinize carefully. No religion is free from its paradoxes and ironies.

Haha, if you're trying to convince me, i came to that same conclusion some time ago. Debated with my christian ex about it. She said that babies go to heaven automatically & people who've never heard of Christ get stuck in some kind of limbo. That's where i brought up the point that every religion could be right & while they all claim to be the one, everything would be a matter of luck, choose wrongly and be damned forever etc. There's no rebuttal to this. It simply is not fair. Or can anyone produce one that isn't fallacious?

I don't agree with this, but I respect your opinion. I would like to add something - religion does not necessarily to be labeled flawed, it's just BLURRY, not clear and direct. Most religions talk philosophically, not all human can comprehend that. That's how you see flaws and inefficiencies in religion.

Some of the reasonings are flawed, blurry or whatever other words you would like to call them All the same.

I think you're attributing too much credit to existentialists, monks, priests, and sufis as if they "have" pure spirituality, since you yourself knew that "pure spirituality" has no definite yardstick.

This is why I disagree when you said only existentialist who rejects religion are leaning much closer to this "pure spirituality" that you've made up on the spot, I think LOL.

Religion is actually good if it is practiced properly. By not abusing and twisting it for doing bad things in the name of god. Those who believe and practice the teaching usually give these people confidence and boost their spirit, mind and soul. If practiced wrongfully then better not do it.

So it is really an act of balancing and believing it. If you don't believe religion, you can still be a good human being.