Cable does play a role in bandwidth. Example, CAT 5e is certified up to 30m for Gbps LAN. CAT 6 can go up to 90m for Gbps. If you use a CAT 6 in less than 30m, the performance would be the same (it wouldn't go faster than 1 Gbps). What we are trying to educate the user is for short length, normally a good build cable will provide the same quality as boutique brand cable. It's only when you go for longer cable such as for projector which normally exceed 25ft that you need to watch out. Don't buy those cheap China no brand/no certification cable as it's not certified to run at long length. For example, if you using 720p, the requirement for bandwidth is lower than 1080p. I read some reports in avsforums some user once upgrade to 1080p projector, they start to have snow or intermittent flash of white problem (loss of sync). Do note that most digital signal do carry CRC error check which can provide some degree of error correction. But once there are too many bits loss, then you have the sync issue.

HDMI does not provide error correction for video data, only audio and control have error correction

I didn't read any specs on video HDMI but my understanding in networking and digital audio are signal is send in packet with certain fix size/length. If there is an error in the signal, it will try to recover the lost bit using CRC. If it can't be recover, than the packet will be drop. For network, it will send a request to resend the packet again. For audio, I think it is one way and the package will be drop. I believe engineer can build a better protocol that can use CRC check, buffer and resend the signal if it can't be recover from the source.

What I want to say is quality cable will not improve the picture quality (such as making black blacker than other cables. To me this is bullshit). But badly constructed cable will drop signal and degrade the picture quality.

As for quality power cable, please don't flame me. I think getting shielded good quality power cable only make sense if you had power conditioner/regulator. If you tap out from the socket directly, it doesn't make sense cause your wireman could have pull some unknown brand unshielded cable in your house. If you don't have a clean source, power cable can't fix the problem.

FYI, I had 2 x Zu Bok cable and 2 x Supra cable connected to 2kW voltage regulator.

This post has been edited by pierreye: Aug 19 2010, 09:56 PM

From all these debates, I think the most important part is we would like to know how a premium hdmi cable can brings improvement to our system. This is the main objective of creating this thread, be it Monster, Van Den Hul, Audioquest etc... Like jchong says, we want to know the end-result and also prepare to upgrade to those branded cables if prove otherwise. Afterall, we are a bunch of AV enthusiasts who only care for our system improvement. I believe we are not here to bash a particular seller. I have bought Monster S-video from Digitech & truly it brings better performance than a chap ayam brand. But now we are talking about digital hdmi cable, a normal person or IT expert would says indifference! But, we are willing to change our perception & upgrade if test proves it.

I dig up some info on HDMI video. Seems it does had some ECC build. I would be surprise if it doesn't had cause ECC would help to recover some error without resending the data.

Below is the info copy from HDMI video transmission protocol. It use BCH scheme.

During the Data Island, each of the three TMDS channels transmits a series of 10-bit characters
encoded from a 4-bit input word, using TMDS Error Reduction Coding (TERC4). TERC4
significantly reduces the error rate on the link by choosing only 10-bit codes with high inherent
error avoidance.
...
All data within a Data Island is contained within 32 clock Packets. Packets consist of a Packet
Header, a Packet Body (consisting of four Subpackets), and associated error correction bits.
Each Subpacket includes 56 bits of data and is protected by an additional 8 bits of BCH ECC
parity bits.
...
To improve the reliability of the data and to improve the detection of bad data, Error Correction
Code (ECC) parity is added to each packet. BCH(64,56) and BCH(32,24) are generated by the
polynomial G(x) shown in Figure 5-5.

Very technical with many jargon words...

Yes, I agree that cable construction can affect data transfer speed.

I'm sure that between standard HDMI cable and high speed HDMI cable there are construction differences.

THX
What are the Benefits of THX Certified HDMI Cables?
Pristine source signal: Ensures the source signal is never degraded.
Thoroughly tested: Ensures the highest standards for quality and usability across specific cable speeds and distances.

SimplayHD
Simplay Labs has launched the new Simplay HD 2.0 test specification for high-speed HDMI cables with Ethernet. This new cable testing regimen goes above what is required for HDMI Authorized Test Center testing, only awarding certification to those cables that pass a higher criteria of performance.

HDMI.org
mentions that there are different types of HDMI cables and confirms Monster cable specs in their list.


Now tell me, which of this certification bodies does not imply that the cables certified by them are better performance cable?

Do you think that if a cable is certified by all 3 bodies, their quality and performance is better than those not certified?

So, can I conclude that it does makes a difference if it is certified by all of them? If not, why this bodies exist in the first place?

If you blind test prove them otherwise that their certification does not makes a difference, then you can actually sealed them up and sue them for giving wrong information.



Question:
Will you put your money with a bank without a Central Bank license?
As if you are saying that all banks are the same, with or without a banking license.
You need a banking license to be govern by Central Bank to ensure that you follow the banking guidelines.

This post has been edited by DigitalTech: Aug 19 2010, 10:41 PM

There are 5 HDMI 1.4 cable types now..

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/...ight_cable.aspx

Certified cable would mean that it would work as the specs required so consumer would had a piece of mind. Without certification, it would depends on the manufacturer if they follow the specs. If the specs meet the requirement, then I don't see how one cable would perform better than others.

Same as THX. THX simply is a certification to say that certain equipment meet the min requirement. Doesn't mean that without the THX certification equipment would be below par. In fact, some equipment without THX certification exceed THX requirement. What certification brings to consumer is a confirmation that the specs is accurate and according to the specification

What we want to educate the mass is if both HDMI cable are certified, the picture quality would be the SAME. If one claim to improve picture quality or improve black levels compare to others, then I would say "BULLSHIT"

This post has been edited by pierreye: Aug 19 2010, 11:03 PM

So, with all this talk abt Certification bodies, theories abt 1 and 0, bandwidth etc....so question is, when is the blindtest going to be held...our very own Lowyat HDMI shootout..

Since monster cable is the benchmark, its only fair to compare with its highest performance of what it can do.

A length of 3 meter should be standard or more common than those ultra long ones.


If not the thread going around dunno how many circle oledi

This post has been edited by azbro: Aug 19 2010, 11:34 PM

Again you are confusing the issues and trying to relate it to banking licenses which are not relevant.

Like I mentioned before those certifications are related to quantitative measures, not qualitative. Do you understand the difference?

With the certification, you can say this cable is certified to support up to 10.2Gbps. In terms of speed (which is a quantitative measure) you can say that certified cable has better performance than a cable which only supports up to 4.5Gbps. Or if a cable is certified to work up to 15' vs another one which is 6' only (you can say the former has better performance in terms of distance).

But the real question is can you say that the certified cable is certified to give you more vivid colours, or deeper blacks (these are qualitative measures)?

Look closely at the test criteria for THX or SimplayLabs, they can certify for speed or signal degradation over length, etc. Where do they ever say "cables that meet THX standards will give you the deepest blacks" or "tested to ensure the most vivid colours" or "certified to give you the clearest picture possible". None of them ever say that.

I asked you earlier: "Assuming two different cables with the same bandwidth capacity, how will that impact image quality?" Can you answer this?

I only have those cheapo cables and entry level boutique HDMI cable. Waiting for others to bring.

Sat and Sun would be good No worry abt food since there are mamak restaurants as well as chinese restaurants in vicinity.

yeah..proof of the pudding...but let it be a fair comparo...

See what maximum the Monster cable can do and see if a cheapo HDMI cable can equal it.

Then do another test the other way round, use very affordable equipment and compare the Monster to the Cheapo cable

See the Monster will benefit which user....the elite or the common man..or both or none!

where is your shootout room bro? here in kl? would like to join also if the time is ok...

Hope you can join..but since you puasa...gonna miss out in 'after talk' at the mamak stall
That one more interesting

This post has been edited by azbro: Aug 20 2010, 12:01 AM

The problem with other cables, which in this case is the cheapo cables does not have the certification to begin with.

Then how can you be sure that they are running at that bandwidth and speed? or proof what they spelled?

They can't even confirm the specs for the cheapo cable, they already lost the battle.

In fact, some may cooked up the specs, maybe because they don't have the budget to get certified or they failed the certification.

We are talking about comparing with cheapo and expensive cable, remember?

This post has been edited by DigitalTech: Aug 20 2010, 12:20 AM

i agree some manufacturers can lie abt their spec.. bcoz there are no proper test done to prove their specs .. but lets say 6' monoprice hdmi tested here http://www.audioholics.com/education/cable...testing-results it should produce the same pic as a monster cable for current materials available in the market right.

i hope u wont throw more unuseful links that wont answer my question

no doubt branded cables are better quality; build wise and has certifications, but that does not mean it can produce better pictures.

guys, make sure when you are listening for AQ improvement at the shoot out, as there are going to be alot of you guys, to remain in your seat and stay in the same position to those that are standing as to not introduce more variables to the tests..

I wonder how will those Exotic Materials used in Monster will stake up against cheapo inferior parts...I remembered Carrefour (before Tesco) used to be selling Cheapo HDMI cables that either work or didn't...and its like 50/50
And bending it bit more caused image shuttering. But so far Tesco ones no negative feedback.

As i said in my previous post, there are two types of test that have to be conducted...one is against what the Monster can perform to the Max....and another one is average performance test against the Cheapo cable.
Blast high bitrate signals, 8~16 bit bit color, high speed scenes, or just maybe Real3D stuff if the cables can support 1.4, high Hz display and of course HD audio materials. Yes, not many people have that kinda of specs in their home, but then again, not many ppl are willing to fork out that money to spend on Monsters as well.
Then test with average joe player, maybe even DVD upscaling player, and see if the Monster have any significant advantage or not with the cheapo cable.