gosh it seems like most of my smart friends are persuing for Actuarial Science.

Just wanna ask, if u persue ur studies in AS, what if you cant get the job(i know its mere impossible but what IF)? What else can you work with the diploma?

If one is serious about a career in actuarial work then a diploma in actuarial science is highly unlikely (even if it's a postgrad diploma, which I doubt you are referring to, unless are referring to a degree).

It's merely impossible to get the job? There are hundreds of actuarial science graduates around the world, a job is not that easy to get, places are not high and competition is stiff.

huh? I heard from my friends that its a job high in demand now. Coz in Malaysia not much actuarial science grads. A lot of company hire from oversea but they'll prefer locals

there's a lot of actuarial science graduate nowadays. The ones that are a bit more lesser are those who have passed all the professional papers and you don't have to graduate from an AS degree to take those papers.

Well when I said "job" it includes everything, i.e. trainee positions, associate positions, and higher positions. A job in this specific field does not come by easily.

I think it was mentioned that there are only ~50 fully qualified actuaries working in Malaysia. And it's not certain whether they are Associates or Fellows, with the ASM or otherwise.

How many actuarial science graduates there are in Malaysia, I would not know.

Are your friends actuarial science students? Are they employed?

I hope I dont scare you with the insights.

Having an actuarial degree and working as an actuary is two different thing.
But of course, most of us that take an AS degree plan to work as an actuary.

Not to be harsh or demotivating, if most of your friends pursue Actuarial Science because:
1) a degree for smart people
2) lots of people seem to be into that field
3) the money
4) a course for high IQ (i lol'ed, but i heard that somewhere)

Then for obvious reason, 60%-70% of your friends may :
switch out, finish but not work as one, got frustrated.
It is like, not all students that are good in Biology can do medicine, or "have the attitude" to become a doctor.

I have seen much smarter students that love math, end up doing lot better it Engineering and computer science,
which involves alot of "fun" and "challenging" math as well.


Alright, to answer your question now,
it is VERY LIKELY when you graduate, you cant get a job.
In malaysia, the concept of Actuarial is not established yet, rather very new due to its hot demand.
Unlike, doctors and lawyers, where the demand in job market always runs a deficit. back home, only very established Insurance, re-insurance and
financial companies would hire actuaries.
So, unless you do well in your studies, PUT IN SELF-EFFORT to job hunt, participate vocational programs, and try to pass most of your "professional" exam,
it is unlikely you get a effortless employment.

I am not sure bout Diploma in AS ( even if I do a little, well I better not say anything bout it)
an AS degree is much wide in terms of coverage, for different professional board there will be different point within the syllabus to emphasis
Since my program is based on Institute of Actuaries Aus, an Aus AS degree will be a well blend of Economics, Business, Finance, and Statistics. ( gawd, I dunno repeat berapa kali dah)

Which means, if you fail to cope up, or you realise you dont like it, you can switch easily to one of these disciplines (degree) and put ur Credit points(studies courses) into use.
So, lets say u graduate with a degree in AS, u can work in fields related to Insurance, risk management, public management, financial sectors, investing, and statistics-related disciplines.
But, working as an qualified actuary will adapt large responsibility because if you approve a wrong model, the whole firm/insurance market might face huge consequences, thats why
its stressful as a career although the reward is high. yet, the climbing process is tiring, having to sit through many professional exams and years of studies.

That explain its low number of qualified actuaries world wide. but according to Senior actuaries from firms, they believe this trend will grow because now Actuarial Science are diversifying as more and more
commercial field import the use of actuaries, which is a good sign for us.

Feel free to ask ( after reading previous posts =.= )

There are actually around 60 fully qualified actuary in Malaysia. And there are MANY that are nearly fellows. Oh, qualified means fellows, not associates.
Btw, what does ASM mean in your context?

Is there other jobs besides actuarial-related jobs that a actuarial graduate can do? Like many of engineering graduate end up teaching or stuff like that?

Either the thread is too long or, in this case (actuarial), there are too many threads so the information are scattered all over.

I always wonder too, are most people that want to study actuarial merely attracted by millions of dollar they would make in the future than interest itself IF they pulled through? I mean like, those who loves maths do a degree in maths or statistics would normally end up in doing jobs with average pay, and here comes actuarial that promises millions for them, who wouldn't want to study it? Basically, capitallism means MONEY.

This post has been edited by xzjasonzx: Nov 5 2010, 02:29 PM

Ok, so the number grew. I said "around 50" because around this year this information was still published occasionally. Of course I can't keep track of the number of people.

Technically an associate is "qualified", just not as qualified as a fellow.

ASM = Actuarial Society of Malaysia. If these actuaries, fellows or associates, are practicing in Msia, they would most likely be registered or affiliated with the ASM and/or one or more internationally recognised institutes.

---

Added on November 5, 2010, 3:03 pmThere is no such thing as a promise of millions. An actuary is most likely not self-employed, and he/she will work for a company at a salary. There may not be as many opportunities for big bonuses, as say, a trader. Furthermore, as RyukA has detailed, the risks are inherent, and an immense level of commitment is needed.

It is clear that is it already quite difficult for an entry level worker / student to break into the field. If that was not enough of an impediment, you have competition from not only actuarial science graduates but math graduates, economics graduates, engineering graduates, statistics graduates, physics graduates etc.

This post has been edited by LightningFist: Nov 5 2010, 03:03 PM

Well, I looked through many courses and subjects related to Actuarial Sc. just got my attention Economics , Computers , Calculations . Adding on, job prospect seems healthy and it's rated one of the best job.

"The drop out rate is high."

Read that plenty of times. As far as I comprehend it is hard due to the intensive course and poor time management. Some find the course boring.

There is a rumour stating that Ac. Sc. is reserved only for top students. How true is it?

If I'm less confident with Ac. Sc. should i take up A-levels instead?


Check out :HELP CO-OP

What you you guys think about the programme above?



P.S. I've seen Hikari0307 and Mumeichan active on Ac. Sc. treads. Are both of you doing Ac. Sc. as well?

This post has been edited by Imperfecion: Nov 5 2010, 04:58 PM

It is inadvisable to do a below-undergrad level diploma or foundation for actuarial science unless you are 100% certain that you both want to do it and will secure a position for further study .

What do you mean it is reserved? In education, selective courses usually only admit capable students. Some elitist institutions do tend to admit students with less than the expected qualifications, based on connections, money etc, but this is something that is not openly disclosed, and such things are not commonplace.

If you look at it as "reserved", top schools will only admit the best applicants to their classes, as places are limited. If there are extra places (this happens rarely), they'll still admit students. If it is oversubscribed, they'll select those they think are the best. You cannot make reservations, but you can make yourself eligible for consideration.

Yes, finance stuffs are closely related to actuarial graduates. There are many who went into finance/econs firms instead of actuary firms.
If just because the thread is too long, they're lazy to read, then that shows how much interest they have on actuarial science.

Actuarial Science won't promise millions. In fact, there are many other jobs which may have higher pay than actuarial science. Also, those who loves maths may not love actuarial mathematics. They are generally different from pure maths. There will be some relevant stuffs with statistics but they are essentially still different.
Actually, taking actuarial science course is a risk. Its a very specific course unlike courses like business management, mathematics etc. However, most university manage this by diversifying some subjects to econs and finance so that those who don't like actuarial science may still have job opportunity in other fields.

Of course AS graduates can always go to work in other fields like Marketing,banks etc. etc.
Like previously said before there are a lot of AS graduates who end up not becoming actuaries because of several reasons and they go and do a whole range of other jobs.

no I'm a Finance and Asian Studies student.

IMHO if you love maths you should go for engineering. This is where you would apply your maths into fun and challenging tasks like calculating how much pressure can your building structures withstand.

Actuaries deal with risks about peoples and I must say it's extremely boring (for me at least). Be prepared to sit for long hours in front of a computer looking at long list of statistics about peoples.

If you are opting for actuarial science because of the maths then a maths degree would be a better option for you. Actuaries only use simple maths when they work. They are trained by all those vigorous maths because they need a HIGH accuracy for their results as it is vital for the company. And be warned, even if you are applying maths, it's won't be as fun as what usual maths would provide.

Example of work of actuaries --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Excerpt_...003_Table_1.png

Yes. It does get very dry.
Those are just Life contigencies, part of the sylabus in AS.
This is the point of a 'statistic" which defines the study on a collection of a range of data. Working on stat can be boring but through stat this is how we study
Behaviour, and then the associated risk.

Of course, in working life there's lots of externalities that differ how a conventional working environment should be.
I do agree that people that look math dont exactly fit into AS, but then different people have different interest, even within math, some people
just loves statistics, some people hate calculus, some people cant understand algorithms, or cant live without algebra.
So I believe its bout finding the right job with the right interest than ranking these fields with distinct level of benefits.

Since it is very unlikely a professional engineer at work ever experience the working life of an actuary and vice versa.
I find it inappropriate for one to compare the working life of both fields, when one actually never/havn't experienced both.
By definition of simple math, everyone interprets it differently for its difficulty.
During conference with firms, we have came across lots of different type of actuaries, those working with Insurance firms with have different insight with those doing re-insurance , and investment.
There are actuaries that deal alot with accountants on capitalisation, and there are those that deal alot with gov. officials, pension schemes.

So even within the field, there's a well diversified range of skills to be applied on different environments. hence, a generalization of such would be unfair to
students on this thread that actually have the intention to see the world of AS before deciding.


*I have no intension to comment on your judgement of AS, but I do like to clarify certain point that may be misleading.

Imperfecion, perhaps you should experience a period in an insurance company? Though that may not give you insight into what you might actually study later on, it would grant you a rough idea of the kind of work they do.

like all great professions. it takes alot of hardwork and dedication to get to where we want to be at. same goes with any discipline.

some how i see some investment banker coming in giving out all the negative and hard work that goes into investment banking. however it is true, in some ways. everyone wants to be in investment banking now a days.

alot of people with actuarial science degrees (speaking mainly for UK based degrees, e.g. LSE) dont necessarily became actuarists. they just work in the financial sector, like in a bank or something, but not related to actuarial. so with an actuarial science degree you can get a job in the financial sector, like analyst/graduate programme in banks etc. thats what quite a number of people with actuarial science degrees from the UK do

You mean actuary

Not everyone wants to be in investment banking. For some people the hours are too long, the job is not as stable, the stress is too great. While others may like it.
But it's not like they look for specific degrees anyway. Anyhow the major IBs overseas have freezed hiring, and a lot of inexperienced/less esperienced people get laid off.

Gomes do you work in that industry (banking or finance), just out of curiosity?

the concept of "actuaries" is different for now than years ago.
your term of "actuary" as intepreted, most probably the traditional actuaries, which are both "life actuaries" and "casualty actuaries" which work closely to insurance related firms.
As I said earlier, the field is now diversified to other commercial context.
As long as there's risk, and there's a way to play with that risk, then you can expect an actuary will be needed to play the role.

Actuary is more of a qualification than a career. One with actuarial skills, work as a senior director in firms, an actuarial researcher,
actuarial analyst, Financial advisor, consultant, liquidator and much more, but the fact they are still called a 'qualified actuary', is not because of their career,
but their professional qualfication at the level of FIA (fellowship).

*just to update, 2010 Feb: Institute of Actuaries (Aus & UK), revise the definition of "actuary" to cover both Associates and Fellows, rather than just Fellows.
So, in a verbal context, it is differentiated as Junior Actuaries ( part I completion), and Senior Actuaries ( AIA, FIA)