interesting but pointless arguments.....

Take up some internship experience instead of looking from a student's view which is formed either from illusion/hearsay.

When you start working, maybe you will be too tired to argue anymore which relates to which.

u think so easy get internships a? especially for actuary positions.

We're not arguing about anything, me, jpysh, sear and the other are all taking out time to type what we've have learnt so far. If you're already working and wish to tell us how your perspective changed from a student to an actuary then we're all ears.

If you're not interested in contributing anything, why don't you just stfu and masturbate to porn.

Yeap, we are merely discussing so that those who plan to take actuarial science will know how's the course is like.. They might also like opinion from those who are currently pursuing actuarial science degree.
As mumeichan say, if you're an actuary, we're all ears, but if you have nothing to contribute besides insults, then I don't see a purpose for you to join the discussion.

Well hello everyone,

Look, i'm merely just 17 years old, soon to sit for my major examination at this age, the Sijil Pelajaran Malaysia. I've placed actuary as my first option in my career pathway and so would like to seek advice from you guys. From what i've heard, Actuarial Science degree is only available overseas. According to latest news, the JPA scholarship no longers offers you to study overseas. Clearly, scholarship is definitely not an option for me anymore(correct me if i'm wrong). So, can anybody tell me the options i could take after finishing my SPM to get to the actuarial science degree (minising financial expenditure if possible)?

*Is it a good idea to major in other degrees (like computering) first and then get to actuarial science by doing exams like what dubai_gal's doing?
*If i choose to major in actuarial science, my options in job opportunities will narrow, wouldn't it be risky if i couldn't get a job as the actuarial science course is technical?

AS is available 4 + 0 in Utar and UCSI..

Well stuff like finance, engineering and computer science all involve alot of math. And those math will serve as the foundation for your actuarial papers, that is if you wanna be an actuary through the professional qualification route. Of course they are many kind of jobs that are called actuary and many different titles doing actuarial work, and difference companies have different requirements. The main question if do you want to learn actuarial math or not? Whether you're gonna be called an actuary, a risk manager, a financial consultant, a manager, the big boss or whatnot comes later. At this stage, you gotta ask yourself what you wanna learn first before you can see what you can be with what you have learned. Like I said the actuarial fields is all about math used to calculate probabilities and values for business to you. Other majors like computer science and engineering provide the pure math basics. While degrees like finance provide the financial management and investment parts. But the actual actuarial models are part of these course and you've gotta study them yourself. These stuff makes up some of the actuarial papers.

Just a bit correction there. Computer Science does Discrete Maths while Engineering involves mainly calculus, differential equations and numerical/computational methods.

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Added on August 18, 2010, 12:23 amThere is numerous pathways in getting an actuarial degree.

Cheapest will be doing it in IPTA like UM.
A bit more expensive will be doing it in IPTS like UTAR.

A lot more expensive will be doing it in overseas institution completely/partially.
Some of the cheaper (still costly though) options include twinning programme with American universities through the American Degree Transfer Programme.
In UK though, University of Southampton does give out scholarship up to 5,000GBP per annum (subject to academic performance) - probably the cheapest you can get in UK. Heriot-Watt, Kent and others are more expensive.

This post has been edited by tanjinjack: Aug 18 2010, 12:23 AM

[quote=tanjinjack,Aug 18 2010, 12:16 AM]
Just a bit correction there. Computer Science does Discrete Maths while Engineering involves mainly calculus, differential equations and numerical/computational methods.

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Added on August 18, 2010, 12:23 am

Oh ya, discrete math is not needed for actuarial science. But well don't computer science use calculus and linear algebra also, vectors, trigo, matrices and stuff? I see that alot when I read about programming(I do abit myself) and yea I know comp sc is not programming, so I could have assumed wrongly. For Eng, the calculus, differential equations, linear algebra stuff is the same. The probability for engineering books I see also cover the same probability topics. But I do believe engineers learn quite abit of number theory, those CRT, polynomials, manipulations, residues, system of equations stuff, series and stuff right? Correct me if I'm wrong. Well, so all those stuff also is not needed for the actuarial papers. Well, if I'm mistaken again correct me thx.

Local Universities does offer this degree? Is the creditability recognised? This means scholarship is an option for me?

I assume you are a malaysian as well as you know about IPT. Mind to share with me on how you made your way through to where you are now? Which university are you studying at? Can you tell me a little bit on what you study there?

Questions:
*Is it a good idea to major in other degrees (like computering) first and then get to actuarial science by doing exams like what dubai_gal's doing?
*If i choose to major in actuarial science, my options in job opportunities will narrow, wouldn't it be risky if i couldn't get a job as the actuarial science course is technical?

This post has been edited by paranoidman: Aug 18 2010, 05:17 PM

I am a Malaysian but I do not do Actuarial Science. I just know a bit of the process in getting into AS programme as I nearly went into this programme.

I am not expert, and what I say about AS may not hold true as I come from Engineering background.

What is the most important thing in an actuarial career is not the degree, but the papers you have taken.
Taking an actuarial degree eases the attempts of those papers as you tend to get exemptions from some of the papers.
In short, getting an actuarial degree does not lead you becoming an actuary, and not taking actuarial degree does not cut off your possibility in becoming an actuary as well.
If you do not wish to take Actuarial Science as your first degree yet wanting to keep yourself a reasonable option in attempting the field, degree with high contents of Mathematics are strongly desired. Engineering, Economics, Finance, Operational Research, Physics, Mathematics etc. to name a few. The strong Maths background in those courses provide you with a smoother start of your actuarial career as you are mathematically trained already.
But bare in mind, Actuarial Science is not Maths. It's a combination of a lot of subjects including Maths, Economics, Communication Skills etc. that form the umbrella of Risk Studies. Being good in Maths does not guarantee anything.

Your job opportunity will not be narrow shall you took an actuarial degree and not pursue the path of becoming an actuary. A lot of graduates of AS degree get employment in similar fields, like banking, finance etc.

If you are determined to become an actuary, just do an actuarial degree. It saves a lot of troubles and you get to concentrate on stuff in achieving your career. What you should be worrying is, do you really want to be an actuary? (Or, you are just another someone who thinks that 'I am good in Maths so I do Actuarial Science because I don't like anything else'. No offense though ) If your main interest lies in Maths, a degree in Maths will be better.

I am currently doing actuarial science in a local private university. Yes, there will be scholarship option for you. As for recognition, if you are serious about actuarial science, professional papers are actually more important. You can graduate at the world best university, but w/o any professional papers, you are still not really recognized.
For the SOA (society of actuary), some universities (or rather, most that offer actuarial science program, including universities in Malaysia) have exemptions on the VEE part. There are no exemptions for other parts (which are the exams).
Actuarial science is indeed a very specific course, but most universities teach more than just actuarial science. They include some business, economic and finance part. Hence, you may be able to look job in that sector if you don't want to be an actuary after taking up the course.
Its depends on your preference really. If you really want to major in other degree courses, then I suggest statistics or financial engineering. While they still differ from actuarial science, at least they are close compared to computering etc.

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Added on August 19, 2010, 12:21 amLol, I was a someone who went for actuarial science because maths is my best subject.
However, I find myself happy, though not without stress, with my current course =)
But you're right about that. If main interest lies in maths, degree in maths or applied maths is also a viable option. Actuarial Maths focus more on probability. Hence, if you are the type that prefer calculus, then maybe you may not like actuarial maths.


This post has been edited by Searingmage: Aug 19 2010, 12:21 AM

Thanks for the information . Well, I still have 6 months for me to decide which course is suitable. And here i am doing my research on this degree.

Exactly how many papers do you need to become a qualified actuary? What is VEE?

Depends on which society you want to join. You can check it out at www.soa.org for SoA. VEE is part of the requirement to be a qualified actuary. It deals with stuffs like economic and finance and statistic.

I am looking to start an Actuarial Science degree (hopefully if I get in) as well.

Please, anyone with knowledge in this area, or who has studied Actuarial Science/Actuarial Maths/Finance, or is in this field, could you please enlighten us with exactly what sort of maths is involved? I have seen that there is a substantial amount of algebra, calculus, and probability and statistics.

Specifically, what other maths subjects are there? And how far is the programming?

Also, I have an important question: when you start an Actuarial Science degree, are you expected to know a lot of the pure maths part? Or will they teach you most of it? What if I didn't take Further Maths?

Thank you.

if u r hardworking enough.. read back all 8 pages of post...all your questions should be answered before already. cheers.

Substantial amount is a dangerous word.

Algebra is a wide area, you will do linear algebra dealing with matrices, vectors and solving linear systems, but nothing to do with complex algebra manipulations.

You'll learn pretty much as much calculus as you can in the undergraduate level. This serves as the foundation for the calculations you'll use in probability and the actuarial models, financial model and economic models. Don't think too much of the work model, it's well just a logical set of calculations put together to get a certain value. Like say, you know GDP? GDP is not some natural value that exist in this universe, it's a value humans created. So to calculate the GDP, we've to rely on the definition of it and what's supposed to go inside. Just an example, actuaries don't calculate GDP.

Probability, all the actual actuarial subjects are applied probability.

Statistic, well to get the probabilities of most things, we need statistical data right, that's as much as well learn. We don't learn statistics as deep as stats majors. In my uni, the statistics isn't applied, that means just the statistical theories and nothing applied to the actuarail profession itself.

Programming, different universities have different ideas on this. I've got to take 1 programming class, the most basic one. Isn't applied to the actuarial field. I still don't know how I'll use programming during my job though. Maybe this is for further study.

If you're gonna do it in UK, you need to take Further Maths, they won't teach you from scratch. In US, even if you didn't take Add Maths in SPM it's ok because you can just start from all the basic subjects.

Thanks for that.

I realise a lot of the skills needed for work in whichever field (finance, quantitative finance, actuary, banking) can and will be learned only then. But before that I have to do well first. I know that I cannot enter uni and simply because I don't have a further maths background I allow myself to fall behind.

Ok well I didn't take further maths that's why I'm planning to take classes or something at least to help me. I'd like to know what there was in Further Maths that I might have missed out on - CIE A level further maths is only A2 and only 2 papers (not sure if this is how it is for everyone)... while other A level boards have further math modules for AS and A2, some of which are interchangeable...

In A level maths I have covered algebra, pemutations and combinations, binomial expansion, polynomials, series/progression, differentiation, integration, differential equations, vectors, complex numbers (and others, but these are specifically mentioned in the CT list).

Now here are things I have never done/heard of (I am reading out of a non-comprehensive CT1-CT8 math content list): interpolation and local approximation, higher order derivatives, Lagrange multipliers/maximisation under constraints, Taylor's theorem (power series expansion of e^x), double integrals and changing their order, partial derivatives of two variables, (what are: exact, separarble, logistic, linear?) differential equations, matrices.

Now here are things in the CIE Further Maths syllabus I don't know: polar curves (how does this relate to polar coordinates?), area of a sector (some integration formula), sum of finite series, mathematical induction (something I am worried about), conjecture, reduction formula to evaluate definite integrals, mean values and centroids of 2D and 3D figures using strips, discs, or shells (including use of a parameter), arc lengths, complementary functions, particular integrals, the general solution, de Moivre's theorem for a positive integral exponent (to express trigonometrical ratios of multiple angles in terms of powers of trigonometrical ratios of the fundamental angle; for a positive or negative rational exponent; in expressing powers of sin θ and cos θ in terms of multiple angles; in the summation of series; in finding and using the nth roots of unity),
some vector product rules with |a||b|sinθ n where n is the unit vector (a2 b3 – a3 b2) i + (a3 b1 – a1 b3) j + (a1 b2 – a2 b1) k, the axioms of a linear (vector) space, linear independence, determine whether a given set of vectors is dependent or independent, the subspace spanned by a given set of vectors, a space is a linearly
independent set of vectors that spans the space, the dimension of a space is the number of vectors in a basis, represent linear transformations, ‘column space', ‘row space', ‘range space' and ‘null space', the rank of a square matrix, and use (without proof) the relation between the rank, the
dimension of the null space and the order of the matrix, use methods associated with matrices and linearspaces in the context of the solution of a set of linear
equations, evaluate the determinant of a square matrix and find the inverse of a non-singular matrix, ‘eigenvalue' and ‘eigenvector', as applied to square matrices, express a matrix in the form QDQ^-1.

What do I need to do? How much of the further pure maths is relevant? Is actuarial maths all about the vectors and matrices, because I don't like vectors and I haven't learned a lot of matrices, as exemplified by the above.

(School said prior statistics knowledge is not required)

Thank you. I hope this is understandable.

-About not taking further maths, it was because it was only A2 - of course now I regret it, but it did not seem like the right choice then, and I wanted to maximise my grades - I was wrong, of course, because A2 further maths would have helped immensely. It's not too late (to catch up before heading to uni?)

This post has been edited by LightningFist: Aug 24 2010, 11:23 AM

Buy Spivak's "Calculus" it isn't really a calculus book, it's an analysis book. If you can do all the questions in that book on your own, then you're good enough to do actuarial math. There's no foundation better than that book.

LMAO. I have no idea whats happening.
Bout the programming part( previous posts), you just to get a grasp of the idea, nothing too technical.
Our lecturer told us, in career, what u will staring at everyday will be Access and Excel. lol.

When working, most of the cumulative information/ calculations will be done by excel/financial software. but we learn it because
we need to know the concept of the calculations, origins of the "formulas" in order to explain to executives, clients, users what the heck does "this scenario" means.
ultimately, learn it for the sake of passing the exams. hehe

Basic Calculus is essential, some linear algebra coverage. And others just bunch of statistical functions to learn.
During our 1st semester, we took a MATH unit for the sake of prerequisites to latter statistic units. Thats the only "pure math" unit compulsory for us to do. lol
We are not engineers, our emphasis is on statistics.
Mathematical reasoning ability is very important, your understanding depends on that later on.

Welcome on-board.