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 Liverpool Football Club- The Kop Talks 2009, Liverpool 4-1 MU WELL DESERVED 3 Points!

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x13u5t3r
post Feb 10 2009, 05:43 PM

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QUOTE(x13u5t3r @ Feb 9 2009, 07:02 PM)
its better to use our youth and reserve players at times like this..

ngog / el zhar / pacheco / babel...
i believe that we have quality players to challenge for titles
its just how rafa play them and his tactics that's need to be improved..
somehow what i see now is Rafa is still experimenting with Liverpool fc..try and testing and he is near to his final product..but just not there yet
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QUOTE(Vagine @ Feb 9 2009, 07:56 PM)
final product? define 1. maybe unbeatable/ invicible arsenal few years back got 1. or current barca team? but for liverpool.. final product seems to be so far away yet... no world cluss flankers...
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let's not compare barca and unbeaten arsenal to our team..my main point was that Rafa is still experimenting..still playing try and error..but it is not as bad as before when he applied too much choppings and rotations (wether it's good or bad that time, its for another session of discussion)

and yes..i think he is near to his final product.."HIS" final product, not ours or any other manager's final product..he got the main positions and players almost done according to his own plan and he's thinking of improvements now instead of rebuilding..
it has been 5 years (more or less), rebuilding phase is already over..5 years is enough for a patience fan like i am..i never feel so damn bad if we didnt win any cup for the past 5 years coz Rafa and Liverpool association is expected to be a long term plan. but yeah we did have great memories while in the rebuilding phase which is soo sweet.

now, after 4.xx years...i expect any manager's final product of Liverpool should sustain top 2 EPL spots, at least last 8 of UCL place, FA cup final for EVERY single year.
and that time is now
and those players are here now
and the manager is still here now

wether u like the players or not, the likes of babel, ngog, dossena, skrtel, mascha, LUCAS, kuyt, benny are his players he chose to be here for his plan
in rafa we trust..for at least 5 years

but again..sometimes i see that Rafa is still experimenting stuffs..costing us a few good silverwares..and put ourself in a shaky place for EPL race
let's just see where we end up in May

TSsolstice818
post Feb 10 2009, 06:08 PM

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QUOTE(Fyrekat @ Feb 10 2009, 05:43 PM)
Isn't it ironic...  laugh.gif
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TBH, I would like to have him back.Then, it's still Rafa is the gaffer.Not me. wink.gif
mochamania
post Feb 10 2009, 06:47 PM

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QUOTE(solstice818 @ Feb 9 2009, 09:41 PM)
He deserves a chance, no? Last season was his 1st season in premier league.How many player can play well in BPL in their 1st season? Torres was an exceptional case because there are a lot of Spaniards helping him out.Voronin, on the other hand, doesnt have anyone from his own country to help him out.

I rate him quite highly back then.He got physical presence like Heskey and his workrate was quite remarkable last season. I still remember seeing him running from the front to the back and made a sliding tackle at our own penalty box to prevent the opponent from crossing.Sometimes, I really think that he is yet another Emile Heskey.

He might not have the pace of Babel, finishing of Torres but he has arguably the strongest left leg compared to Kuyt and Torres.Last season, there was a goal of him was scoring out of penalty box using his left leg.Like Heskey, he was not much worth marking for the opponents' defenders which might do wonders if defenders keep marking Torres.He can easily find out space and scores.

Some of you were mentioning about Babel, Ngog, Nemeth and Pacheco? Which one of them are EPL Proven?No doubt all of them have quality to become quality players in future but with us trailing behind manu in such a tight title race, I wouldnt want us risking it by putting in some inexperienced youth players like Nemeth and Pacheco. I rather start with someone experienced like Voronin. wink.gif
If because of inconsistent that we refuse to use Voronin, we might as well sell Babel, Benayoun, Mascherano , Dossena, Ngog away.This season, Babel was so inconsistent.Besides his winning goal against manu, I cant remember anything else he contributed to the team.Too much of selfish display and I really start hating him to be honest.Benayoun is another player that inconsistent.Before his good performances recently, he was having quite a number of bad games.And I swear I remember some of you here were scolding him back then.So, what happen now? He is easily one of the best player on field for the last couple of games.Like most of us here mentioned, Mascherano did not play good football like last season.So, should we sell him out as well?But from what I know, he admitted he was not on his best,came back and played decent football recently.

Why is that Voronin inconsistent and we cant give him a chance?How is he going to be consistent with Rafa keep rotating him?Plus, It was his 1st season.How many of good players nowadays shine in their 1st season?Ronaldo took few seasons before becoming what he is today.Deco is suffering now.And Flamini too took 4 season before becoming a good player.No doubt Voronin doesnt have that much time to prove himself but he deserves a second chance.Back to the summer friendlies, he was our top scorer with 3 goals.I m not saying that he will DEFINITELY come good but with us lack of strikers , why not calling him back? If he cant do it, sell him in the summer.The likes of Ngog and Babel just wont work and score and I rather hav Voronin back.At least he can work out some spaces for Torres and going back to defend like he did. wink.gif
Just my 2cents
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QUOTE(leftist @ Feb 10 2009, 10:04 AM)
babel i can understand..but ngog???...he's only here not even a year and u already dismiss him...even rafa talk highly bout him in pompey game..i think he derserve another chance...and mind u he's only 19..plenty of time to develop
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Very true.. Benitez's style of rotating has severely affected his gameplay. I'm not saying he sucks totally as a player, but his inability to play consistently and deliver what Benitez wants as so many factors have come to play. His given role, position and the given games to start/sub.
Playboy21
post Feb 10 2009, 06:52 PM

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Ngog is alright. He just need to build his confidence, and he might just turn into a good striker. I've given up on Babel though. He's been given not one chance, but many chances... yet, he still disappoints me. If he just learns to work with his teammates, he can be a really good player. Great pace, good dribbling ability... but meh, selfishness.
x13u5t3r
post Feb 10 2009, 07:36 PM

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for Babel's case..its in his blood..same blood in the vein of Robben, Sneijder, Van Persie

it is when a striker will never get the ball, explains why Nilsterooy is better playing at left back
GulaV
post Feb 10 2009, 08:05 PM

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QUOTE(Playboy21 @ Feb 10 2009, 06:52 PM)
Ngog is alright. He just need to build his confidence, and he might just turn into a good striker. I've given up on Babel though. He's been given not one chance, but many chances... yet, he still disappoints me. If he just learns to work with his teammates, he can be a really good player. Great pace, good dribbling ability... but meh, selfishness.
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Sometimes, selfishness is needed for the young backup player like him. He need to show that he can score, or at least his shootings are on target. It's important to show the manager that he deserves to be in squad more often. Imagine you are in a tryout for some football club, you sure want to show that you can shoot and score (if you are a forward). Same case for Babel. But him as a more established player in the squad, he should not show selfishness than he need too. Sometimes it can be annoying especially when he tried to beat 3 defenders that surely he can't beat while there are other players that can help him and shoots randomly and off target.
Duke Red
post Feb 10 2009, 10:31 PM

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Well we can all speculate on why Rafa didn't think that Keane was right for the squad but none of us know how he performs during training sessions. Rafa was brave enough to sell players that won us the Champions League the very next season like Smicer, Baros, Cisse and Didi Hamann with none of them making the headlines after leaving so who knows? Let's just see if Keane starts firing on all cylinders for Spurs again before being too judgementel.

On the issue of players being selfish, yes you can be provided you are that good. There are 38 league games in a season and given how small the margin for error is, you just cannot afford to take too many risks and have young players try to do too much on their own. People may cite examples like Lionel Messi, C. Ronaldo, Kun Aguero or whoever but take into consideration that there are a whole host of other young players that turn out to be average and nothing more. If they don't cut it in training or for the reserves, chances are they won't againt higher quality opposition.
grammar
post Feb 10 2009, 11:09 PM

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i thought the reason benitez doesn't play babel much was because he lacked stamina. during last season, he was always subbed at the 60th minute even when he's playing a good game. then he seems to get lesser and lesser games

he's a natural striker though and putting him on the wing may not have shown his full potential. during the psv match he was superb playing along side robbie keane(it wasn't on astro, i watched it via streaming). i do agree with the part that rafa shouldn't risk young players playing crucial games. plus, looking at babel's playing style, it wouldn't go well with torres. i guess that's why he's stuck at the wings

and about him being selfish, i guess he rarely starts a match, and whenever he does, he has to show what he's got. the pressure might have made him selfish. what liverpool needs now is a supporting striker. gerrard have been feeding torres with the ball all this while. i guess keane doesn't fit well because he doesn't like the idea of being in a "supporting" role. still, he will be missed
miketee
post Feb 10 2009, 11:39 PM

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Here's my 2-cents on Babel's "selfish" play... he's playing to the boss's instructions to keep the ball and try to beat a man. Because the boy has a lot of pace and if gets pass just one defender, he'll have the space to put in a cross or launch a shot. Just that it hasn't worked out well so far!

Opinion: Babel could have a big say in crucial run-in
Source: This is Anfield

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

Everdying
post Feb 10 2009, 11:59 PM

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does anyone know if astro are showing the spain-england friendly?
kickoff is scheduled at local time thu 12th feb 5am.
TSsolstice818
post Feb 11 2009, 12:06 AM

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QUOTE(miketee @ Feb 10 2009, 11:39 PM)
Here's my 2-cents on Babel's "selfish" play... he's playing to the boss's instructions to keep the ball and try to beat a man. Because the boy has a lot of pace and if gets pass just one defender, he'll have the space to put in a cross or launch a shot. Just that it hasn't worked out well so far!
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I beg to differ.Firstly, none of us are sure whether he is playing under the boss' instruction to play selfishly and beat the defenders or he is acting on his own.To be honest, even in reality, not under the instruction of boss, Babel is a selfish guy.This can be seen when he himself asked his agent to talk to Ajax for a potential loan deal without informing Rafa 1st.Ajax then made a loan deal before Rafa rejected it.Did Rafa ask Babel to go for a loan deal? I guess not.Before that loan deal he asked for, he even moaned to the media repeatedly, trying to unsettle the team morale when we were top of the table.To put it in simple words, he is a selfish guy who put himself ahead of the club.

Is true that Babel has the quality to be a world class player.Unlike Lucas who is more prone to mistakes, Babel has the pace and skills to beat defenders.His raw pace caused the opponents' defensive line problems and might just work well for others to find spaces to score goals.Yet, his selfish play or your claim of him playing under boss' order see us losing possessions or have him shot the ball wide just because of his unwillingness to pass the ball to other teammates that have better position with NO defenders marking them.

Take an example.In the games against Pompey, he was surrounded by 3 defenders in the middle of the field, just outside penalty box.Aurelio was on the left with Kuyt on the right.Instead of passing the ball to him, he tried to beat 3 defenders at once without even considering to pass the ball to his teammates.It doesnt take a genius to understand that in such circumstances one should pass the ball to others instead of risking to lose the ball to opponents in a match that the team is trailing behind the opponents in scoreline.A victory of a game is much depends on the teamwork of the team.It's an 11 men game and not a one man show.You can have the best player in the world but you cant have him win the game on his own.Team work is the major part of winning the game.He is certainly not Maradona or Messi who can take on few defenders at once.Not all players are gifted.Nuff said.

If everyone just busy thinking of scoring goals themselves, there wont be a term call "assisting" now, no?I believe his selfish play begins when he found himself down the pecking order after Riera's superb start at Anfield.His hunger to prove he is worth of 1st team football, his hunger to show what he is capable of...The hunger is good for someone young like him but it's not necessary good for the football club itself.

And like you said, it hasnt been working out well so far.How long has he been playing like this? It had been few months, no?If it din work until now, I cant see it working in future.For a man that put his own future ahead of club, put his own performance ahead of team results, he doesnt deserve to even sit on the bench.

This post has been edited by solstice818: Feb 11 2009, 12:09 AM
Oxigen
post Feb 11 2009, 03:23 AM

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now im wondering, with the board-room and Rafa's rage, will Rafa receive the axe as per Scolari and also Tony Adams? damn man, nothing is cetain in BPL...


-cheers-

Duke Red
post Feb 11 2009, 09:53 AM

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I agree with solstice in that I'd prefer a team player over an individual one any time of the day. Why is Dirk Kuyt and automatic choice with Rafa? Simply because he puts the team first. He works tirelessly to win the ball back the create opportunities for teammates. He also makes intelligent runs in behind defenders to pull them all over the place, creating space for teammates. I think that there are a good number of people who don't recognise this and therefore don't see what he brings to the team. Anyway not to digress. Babel still has someways to go in his career but he needs to start learning to use him teammates more much like Ronaldo has.
Vagine
post Feb 11 2009, 09:55 AM

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even SAF was on d brink last few season. remmber they were suggesting to replace him?
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post Feb 11 2009, 10:36 AM

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QUOTE
Fernando Torres has again pledged his long-term future to Liverpool following reports that Barcelona are weighing up a summer bid for his services.
Speaking ahead of Spain's friendly with England on Wednesday night, the Liverpool striker insists he is happy at Anfield and isn't considering a move away.

"I don't see myself playing for Real Madrid, or Barcelona or Chelsea or any other team," he said.

"I see myself playing for Liverpool. I have a long contract and that's that."

After netting late winners in each of Liverpool's last two league games against Chelsea and Portsmouth, El Nino is hopeful his injury problems are now a thing of the past.

"This year what I am more worried about are injuries," he added. "I have had many problems since last summer but I hope I will be okay now until the end of the season."

And Torres is keeping his fingers crossed that Reds skipper Steven Gerrard can make a speedy return to first team action after a hamstring problem.

"Hopefully Steven will be okay too," he said. "He's a special player and a vital part of our team and we need him fit again soon.

"I don't know how long it will take for his leg to heal, but we wish him the best and hope we can have him back as quick as possible.

"If it is in time for the Champions League game with Real Madrid even better."

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N...090210-1712.htm

damm this makes me love him more!! rclxm9.gif rclxm9.gif
livingmonolith
post Feb 11 2009, 12:14 PM

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babel can come good, but he's always full of surprises. either he amazes you, or he disappoints you.

i admit that i'm occasionally frustrated with his non-existent contributions in a match (especially when he takes the wrong options when we're chasing the game), but his raw abilities can provide something different to the team.

of course, it's visible that he lacks the match experience and more often than not he chose the wrong option when given the ball, but he has also managed to surprise defenders and has shots packed with power, he can prove to be a threat.

as long as babel's not complaining about not having enough games, i'm not complaining having him in the squad.

i'd like to see him improve though, even with his raw talent he can terrorize defence, imagine him having the brains to utilize his abilities.
Duke Red
post Feb 11 2009, 02:30 PM

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The thing Babel has to realise is that it's almost impossible to penetrate a thick defensive wall on his own. If it's an open game or he's playing on the counter, he has the luxury of time and space where defenders have to track back to mark him. When playing against deep defences however, defenders are already on him and if he passes one, he immediately comes up against another one as they are stacked together. In these situations it's better he gets rids of the ball and uses his strenght and speed to beat defenders off the ball and get into open spaces.
livingmonolith
post Feb 11 2009, 03:23 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ Feb 11 2009, 02:30 PM)
The thing Babel has to realise is that it's almost impossible to penetrate a thick defensive wall on his own. If it's an open game or he's playing on the counter, he has the luxury of time and space where defenders have to track back to mark him. When playing against deep defences however, defenders are already on him and if he passes one, he immediately comes up against another one as they are stacked together. In these situations it's better he gets rids of the ball and uses his strenght and speed to beat defenders off the ball and get into open spaces.
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which is the thing he needs to improve on.

he doesn't have the vision and composure (yet) to pick out the best option available when he has possession, and these are the reasons why many supporters are criticizing him.

but to be fair to him, he doesn't have the luxury like last saturday's match against portsmouth to start and get to have longer time on the pitch. most of his appearances this season are limited 10-15 minutes where we need goals, if he doesn't try to shine (and be selfish) in those minutes then he has no time to prove anything at all.

it was obvious that his playing attitude last saturday is a little bit better than when he comes on as a sub. yes, he still tends to dribble past the entire defence at times, but he also made several key passes and made some goal-scoring opporturnities too, which i am wondering why nobody pointed out.

at his age babel has the world on his feet, and i can understand why he thinks he can beat everyone on the pitch. it's his confidence which i am impressed with. how many young players are convinced that they can step into the first team and set the world alight? not a lot. remember youngsters like otsemobor, wright, welsh, potter, and even mellor? comes onto the pitch with their heads down everytime and not making any statement, and ended out being lower league regulars now. they don't strike fear in the opponents' eyes.

babel's brimming with confidence, if only he uses his head more often i believe he will come good in the near future.
Axell
post Feb 11 2009, 10:35 PM

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r Pennant still in liverpool? i like to watch he play smile.gif
TSsolstice818
post Feb 11 2009, 11:33 PM

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QUOTE(Axell @ Feb 11 2009, 10:35 PM)
r Pennant still in liverpool? i like to watch he play smile.gif
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He is on loan at Pompey now.With him yet to sign a deal, I guess is pretty much confirm that he will leave us in summer. nod.gif

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