http://www.cadred.org/News/Article/44806/

DAMN : MW... yeah...

Read this article and tell me what on earth is the "COD4" Community coming to..
This is no longer COD, but merely a shell for these guys to turn it into CS... sigh

Read the article, really... its amuses me so much that you dont have to talk promod ever again. Why, coz this is set to replace promod.. yay!
Im sOOOOo Happy! ... again, pardon my sarcasm.

Anyhoo, if they are going to really implement this thing, i dont know what to say. Next thing they'll probably add is a Buy button to select weapons and a round radar which is green and fugly.

So....err....

Whats the point of implementing this? Wouldn't they be better of to play...oh I dunno...CS:S perhaps?

nah, the reason why they didnt is because they couldnt mod CS:S to what they wanted it to be. CS: Promod was supposed to be a combination of CS1.6 configs but with better graphics which was the Source engine. However, modding something like that meant they had to go into the core.

So instead of starting from scratch, they took COD4 and made promod for COD4. Now even raf1 (promod's creator) has left the project, so it means DAMN : MW will replace promod..

that rules... everything like CS... lolx.

other than early prenades at d start of d game... i still lov d original COD4 with minimal tinkering! As for talks bout perks, which does not help competitive gameplay or luck factor wutsoeva... me dun understand.... every1 has d same perks... so if two sets of playas with same perks go head on... its still skills dat determine the winning factor aint it? how izit not competitive? Wut is d definition?

?_? (blur look)

Pardon me,

But CoD4 will never EVER be like CS. You know that very well. The player movement is not fluid enough and it is still rather impossible to headshot every player you encounter.

If you knew okay, if you only knew why the competitive CoD4 community over in EU was still buzzing is because of promod. Brian you are looking to form a competitive community in the first place, am I right?

So why are you whining over every attempt someone tries to create a competitive mod that will actually bring us close to realizing your goal? Your ruleset stinks. Period. It still has all those random factors that make CoD4 here so uncompetitive. Its just too close to public play.

CS 1.x has lasted 8 years. With tournaments still going on strong internationally. What makes you think CoD4 will last another 7?

At the rate you are making it easier for non-competitive teams to just jump in the more that competitive line fades and soon the CoD community here will just be a huge mess of players all playing different gamemodes different rulesets and eventually everyone will get bored of it quick and the game will die.

CoD can never be an esport game if we have people like you that want to hand feed the public community tournaments. Everyone in the community, please stop thinking about what's the most fun only and at the same time the best way to get ourselves into a real competitive scene and get this show really on the road.

I know everyone is trying their best but when there is an easy opportunity just cease it. Since we don't know for sure from the start if even the current ruleset can sustain a competitive community.

GL & HF.

Carmen <3 brian's rules

wut is d random factors in cod4? wut is competitive play in cod4?

?_? blur look

i feel as though the limited *GUNS* per team is like cs.....WELL DUH OPFOR ONLY HAS THE AK47...hahahahah lol...ill try this mod out later

@Tequila: Lets have a scrim using this mod? I mean lets all try it since its new and stuff. PLEASE I WANT TO TRY IT OUTTT hehe. Its not going to hurt anybody =P. You, me, your server, +8 players... =D...dude come on!!!!

Btw, the *no cooking* nade, is actually pretty good. I was a COD2 player and proud of it =D

The *NO RED DOT* on the minimap.....hmmm sounds interesting...something not CODish at all =P

kura is gay...

This post has been edited by [ESP].quack: Dec 5 2008, 11:39 AM

Wraith I suggest you listen to this shoutcast.

You'll have a clearer picture of what's going on in the international COD community.

Let me give you a scenario of a random factor. A nade that flies over a building, hits a pole, goes into a small window which bounces over the table/counter/whatever in the room and kills everyone behind cover. Only in COD4 . Or maybe 5 as well :0

This post has been edited by Strayfah: Dec 5 2008, 11:44 AM

oh another mod? yeah great

Competitive games are made to draw a crowd of players who want to play this game rather seriously or as a sport.

With that there needs to be a learning curb that cuts no slack but is rather simple. Competitive games don't need to be necessarily simple but for First Person Shooters they need to be in order for players to get good and keep a consistent line of performance with their certain playstyle and technique.

Perks DO make the game more interesting. Me and my team have tried PAM4 and we think that it caters to a crowd "WE" a competitive team are trying to differ ourselves from.

Call of Duty 4 is already random with the grenades raining down every round start in SnD. Even if it is part of the original non-modded game its certainly not the way a competition game should be played.

So lets say someone like MYM|Morg the the developer of DAMNmod decides to implement no-cook grenades and eliminate the problem and actually lets players avoid the grenades if they can. It makes the game more consistent and improves the learning curb.

No learning curb should ever be formed on random factors.

As competitive players we must acknowledge the fact that the playing field must be leveled to everyone. The best way improve then is not only to play matches with your teams more but to actually develop tactics and effective strategies for the esport.

The best example is CS. There is no doubt about it. The reason why there are still so many teams playing it is because that consistency factor fuels competitiveness. It makes teams wanna improve their tactics and strats more.

There are mulitple ways to attack and defend a bombsite. Each team has their own unique way of doing it. When CS competitive exploded onto the scene everyone had to learn what works and what doesn't in order to better themselves.

The best way to learn is to take defeat like a normal thing and do not be hard on yourself and your team. I like leading a team. My team. I don't say I'm the best at it but I am still learning.

*Edit* Sure quack. I'd love to.

This post has been edited by t3quila: Dec 5 2008, 11:52 AM

There he goes again with the insults.

I hear talk about "competitive" all the time, never have i seen the real definition of what you mean by it. Im not whining because its a "competitive" mod. Im whining because its becoming something else. Tell me something teq, the questions you asked. Can you answer them yourself?

Will CoD4 sustain another 7 years? If we go DAMN mod, will it? The answer is still the same. Maybe. But what you're asking for is probably not possible for a game that barely reached its first year in the market, yet alone in competitions. There already has been drastic changes in the rulesets we've been using from the first tourney. Also, the stupid name for it just ticks me off anyway. Although some of the changes are indeed interesting, they stray from what the COD series is.

Have you ever thought that perhaps CoD4 isnt really cut out to be part of the "competitive" scene or that the perception of FPS gamers are so narrow that everything is about reflexes and MUST somehow be related to the effects, prefixes, variables and system of what CS used to be like. Im not against removing or limiting a certain component in a game, but to remove an entire segment? Seriously.

Please tell me the advantages of entering your version of the "competitive" scene. What future does it hold that is so important that we MUST follow the other countries, how do YOU plan to bring the community to where YOU want to go? What will you do for them with all the talk you've been doing, the "effort" you put into "developing" the community.

I imagine, if you get good at gaming in FPS games, you might be able to survive the next 10 years of your life.. if you're good. What about if you spent the same amount of time at it, but you cant win. What will cover your costs, what will buy you out of your forsaken time you could have took to do something else. If you yourself cannot confirm where COD4 might be in a years time, why pull everyone down with you. Out of the tens of thousands of pro-gamers out there, where are they now after they retired? Most of them went back to school, they bring their gaming experience with them, in time hopefully some gaming company will indeed hire them for that experience. but how often does that happen?

We got something good going here, its working for them, players are getting their chance to feel what is like to be in competitive play, sooner or later they will have a choice wether to continue or not, im giving them a choice to play casually or go pro, if you dont have either one, the game will slowly die. Evolution takes time, you are just impatient.

Those who choose to go pro can, im attempting to build a future for them, something where they can find real sponsors to go where they really want to go. But they must be tested locally, then regionally, then internationally. There are stages to all working things. Why do you think i have a sponsors cup in planning? A cup that contracts the winning team for a full years sponsorship to enter your said tournaments etc etc. WHO is the short sighted one? Really.

Im happy that the guys from FFF are thinking of adopting something more competitive, it shows that what we're doing is actually working. THEY are making their own choices, THATS the way it should be.

You already know there needs to be multiple levels of this sort of tournaments, why is it a necessity for you to insult/bash what is the minumum basics of drawing a crowd?

This post has been edited by crashtec: Dec 5 2008, 11:56 AM

Owh wow, this is hilarious... will be investigating the raw files when I get back home...

Crashtec If you have the time yeah? Please do listen to that shoutcast. It is very important that you do. After hearing it I want to push competitive faster here. We have to do it or else we'll be always 1 year short. You are the man for the job because you can inspire people.

Try not to throw too much commercial attention into the community yet. We need it for ourselves. Like before there was CEVO there was CAL. It did not have any monetary funding but it made many competitive games popular. Players did join in for the fun but they were turned competitive as the games it supported had a learning curb to follow consistently and not randomly.

From CoD1 came CoD2. Everyone said CoD2 was better. Both competitive and public players. When it came out CoD1 died. That is the trend and the problem now everyone is facing here. We don't want to see more splits in splits. Lets try to keep it down to one gamemode at least. SnD.

CoD4 was not meant for Domination and CTF play. The spawn system is rubbish. There is just too much random. "Cap all 3 points and players spawn everywhere." Doesn't make any sense.. TDM is a waste of time. We want to see team tactics and clutchplay. I wouldn't say CoD4 was meant to be played SnD. But it has the best support for it. Almost all of the maps are good SnD maps.

We play what everyone else is playing we'll be ready for anything international when it hits us. Lets get this show on the road people. We play promod not because the other competitive scenes are but because we want to be on par with them. We can show that us Malaysians can be highly competitive players too.

Brian if you have the time I'd really like to speak to you privately. Either that or we could have a real discussion with clan leaders and a panel to keep the noise down alittle.

lol thx. but i initially mentioned other than prenades (which actually included random nades over bldgs etc), can't really think of any other random factors.

Mmm..how about I get ex-con and rush? That alone makes alot of things unpredictable. And you shoot someone down but that bugger has last stand and he kills you instead.

hurm... excon is balanced out as in u can avoid prenades.
U just have to tune ur timing.
Thats why it is so interesting.
but still me myself i dont like it.


And please rule out last stand.
Its bullshit.
Come on u shoot a guy down.
And u keep shooting for another 3 seconds just to kill a "deadman."
and plus for the 1st second, he has invulnerability. and he's god for a second there.
very abusive.

If u have a problem with the PERKS, please attend the next meeting and further call a vote.
I will vote with u.

The community will agree if they think fairly and not only for self benefits.
So far, they have been doing great.
from the banning of 3xnades, stun nades, deadsilence bla bla bla.
we are learning still!



Well, i dont really mind that mod.
But no red dots on radars?
aww... just because they dont wana use fkin SILENCERS they have to cancel it?
Read the "INTEL" on the loading screen.

other than that, its alrite.
Its more realistic.
Cook nades yea... a lil imba. true.

The weapon things,
yea its interesting as in u have to master all weapons. Not only ak74u =.=


@Quack
i too was a CoD2 player. rindu sial m1 =)

edit: @teq and quack.
: i wana join too! xfire me!


This post has been edited by FFF.10: Dec 5 2008, 12:47 PM

And that is the stuffs that makes CoD4 unique? When you can accept life has so many unpredictable stuff, why not in game?

After investigating z_weapons.iwd for awhile, this is what I get:

M40
Damage = 90
Multiplier to head = 2 (180 dmg)
Multiplier to torso = 1.2 (108 dmg)

R700
Damage = 95
Multiplier to head = 2 (190 dmg)
Multiplier to torso = 1.2 (114 dmg)

THEIR MATHS ROXX!!! LETS PLAY THIS MOD FTW!!!

This is a game. It is not real life. This is going to be a competitive game. Not just a game. And when a game goes competitive it becomes very much like a sport.

The definition of Sport.

"Sport is an activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively. Sports commonly refer to activities where the physical capabilities of the competitor are the sole or primary determiner of the outcome (winning or losing), but the term is also used to include activities such as mind sports (a common name for some card games and board games with little to no element of chance) and motor sports where mental acuity or equipment quality are major factors. Sport is commonly defined as an organized, competitive and skillful physical activity requiring commitment and fair play. Sports differ from Games based on levels of organization and profit (not always monetary). Accurate records are kept and updated, while failures and accomplishments are widely announced."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport

what about sabotage?

i havent heard a thing about sabotage mode.

one thing that i really loved about malaysian rule set

multiple game modes. it feel like ur in CGS. but u playing all the games.

and i see in COD4 the ambiance changed drastically when you go to the 2nd round.

Sabotage you still need to play symmetrical maps to work out the balance issues. But it gets so pointless and boring when both teams are on par with each other. And the game doesn't let you stop to strategically plan your next play/attack/formation.

In a competition noone wants to end up playing an already prepared stalemate mode. Heck noone likes it even on public servers. It gets very repetitive and then boring. Plus, we don't want to keep the organizers and players waiting an eternity for a bracket to finish playing because the two best teams got stuck playing Sabotage.

This post has been edited by t3quila: Dec 5 2008, 04:17 PM

Freeze time 15. Buy time 20. Starting money 800. First round eco round. Go Go Go! Storm the front! Affirmative! Roger That! Press 3 can hold knife? Press 5 can hold the briefcase, press G (or F) can drop briefcase or guns. Crouch walk? No more jump snipe? Prone disallowed. Bunny hop. WAIT. THIS IS A CALL OF DUTY 4 FORUM!

The mod is up on our server please help test it.

He was asking me to list out the random things in COD4. I was doing as per request. It's the randomness that stops COD4 from being a good game in competitive e-Sports.

Errr.... mind to elaborate on "random things"?

..Jesus..Just read my previous posts.

Tried the DAMN, OMG it's owh hot damn!

Heh? Don't mind if you can repeat it for confirmation?

Owh yeah baby, lets party! I'm feeling horny, coz da mod is so sexy.

This post has been edited by Luftwacko: Dec 5 2008, 07:06 PM

Lol confirmation of what? Random things happen randomly. There's no confirmation to it.

so we will start off wif pistol oni?
XD XD

USP's and Glocks

call of duty 4 become cs again .......... i need a break .....

No it does not have pistol rounds and money system.. It is still never going to be like cs.. Stop speculating and just test.

no ori cdkey =x

If you guys are referring to perks, I don't see how "unpredictable" they're.... most perks are pretty well balanced against each other.

Haha, now we're getting somewhere.

You're not alone in this factor. Fact is, there was already talk between josh and i about separating snd from dom and tdm.
But in order to keep it interesting, we needed other game modes to draw people in. This is highly because there are very little random SnD games out there being started by players. New players just join TDM straight.

This is changing however, more and more people are finding time to play SnD, you wont see them touch Dom or Tdm unless they are training.
DAMN may be interesting as it puts other guns back into play, not just the 2 russian made weapons. but why call it Damn zzz, if im going to ask big guys to put it into their events.. the name is going to need a profanity filter or something.

Yes things will change, but not in the current league. Hopefully by Jan you'll see things picking up.

Yeap I'm not asking for a sudden change. Just want to let everyone know that we have to drop DOM and TDM for serious competitive play if the rest of the world ain't playing it at the highest competitive level since there isn't a future in the those two modes for this game. It is however important to make it little/beginner league.

I'm not pressuring you Brian. I just want the people who are already committed to competitive clans to start taking real action and stop letting you do every little decision for them. For that they must dive deeper into the competitive scene and learn everything they can about it.

How can we, as a competitive gamer community advance to middle stage from here? It is up to you guys to find out what is REALLY happening overseas and come up with ideas as to what we should really be playing/doing. We have to keep up because we ain't leading that's for sure.

So get your original copy of CoD4 people and stop giving an excuse. If you truly support the game buy the original. Even if you don't have a computer you can use your key to play on original servers online from a CC computer and make sure u bring the 1.7 update as well as punkbuster with you on your removable storage device.

In the meantime Fusion server will be the testbed server for DAMNmod. Only original copies. We do NOT support piracy.

I'm still trying to figure something out which no one has by far answered.

How is having different perks unskilled =.=" several times it has been mentioned in several threads that having perks is not supportive of competitive gameplay.

I read through the promod ruleset and just had a go at the DAMN mod. I've also listened to the shoutcast from the other thread.

Concerning ProMod, they say things like nosway fix. A fix means there was something wrong with the orginal issue. Were these guys unable to handle "gunsway"? Did they not like jumping at particles onscreen? Could their fingers not handle pressing an EXTRA key on the board to hold their breath? I seriously don't understand why competitive gaming seems to be made easier and easier.

I never had any issues with using any of the MODs, but seriously TEQ, your attitude sucks. You merely scream the words competitive over and over again while spouting that others are screwing up. You have not seemed to be able to actually say something useful from the last collection of posts you have made. For one second stop being the damned prophet of doom. The best part I realise is, you behave like a whiner. Face to face you never really have anything to say, but then you run home, hide behind your screen and then scream out that other ideas suck and that you're the jesus christ of gaming, "Follow me if you want to get to heaven." In the first place, most of your "points" are SUBJECTIVE and based on your own opinion. I listened to some of the things that those guys said and read a couple of debates on the matter and seriously, PAM4 is OLD and dying, promod was developed to counter some of the discrepancies that PAM4 did not have. Great. But DID they have to take EVERYTHING away from the game? I saw your list of fundamentals to have in a game.

That is NOT an attitude that a respectable and reliable person should have. Correct me if i'm wrong seriously.

I've spoken to brian and yes we're probably going to go for Damn: MW because "it's the future." God's I've just read the changelog for DAMN. It actually looks a lot better than i hoped.

Bah.

I've got no issues playing only SND. That's what we play most of the time anyways and the rest of the maps are just meatgrinder fests. And I have something for people to think about. If someone can't use a particular mod and win; does it mean he's not good enough, or too good for the game? Just something to think about.

This post has been edited by Sanction: Dec 6 2008, 01:33 AM

Okay, my sarcasm talk ends here for today.

If you guys seriously want to adopt this mod for the next tourney, I strongly implore you to modify the z_weapons.iwd file. The weapons are pretty screwed up.

...
@ strayfar
I don't know about your grenade hitting a pole and bouncing off a wall entering through the window and killing the guy inside, but... the reason why cs doesn't have that is because they don't have ANY terrain or objects in it. So you can't bounce stuff off.

Now what if i was DELIBERATELY bouncing the nade off the pole? Would it be random then?

---

Added on December 6, 2008, 1:49 amBesides, according to the Damn modfiles there is a 30% drop in shrap radius. So he better be a really good player to bounce that grenade. Would take a lot of skill.

This post has been edited by Sanction: Dec 6 2008, 01:49 AM

The scenario was in a normal mod. Not in Damn. It'd be quite impossible to deliberately hit the pole behind a building that's blocking a view and to get it to actually bounce off into a certain direction, you gotta be joking.

But when playing hardcore i throw grenades by lining up the first finger on my screen with a terrain feature. While i admit i won't know which way a grenade will fly once it hits the object i can effectively throw the nade at a pole within a few sprites of a pole. so roughly 1 out of 8-9 times i'll hit the pole. Use the grenade mod and practice =) you'll know exactly where your grenade goes. Teq knows about this. We practice prenading using the mod.

---

Added on December 6, 2008, 2:06 amOh btw, you can ask anybody on my team, when prenading I set myself up by running the same line over and over again. So that the deviation for my prenade is consistently within a 3 feet circle. Thats called practice which is what competitive gaming is about. No sarcasm intended.

This post has been edited by Sanction: Dec 6 2008, 02:06 AM

Yes I do know about the nade mod and yeah, you prove my point. You only hit the pole a few times. It's not a 100% thing therefore it can be considered a random factor. There are just too many things that can happen in COD4 which can really become a turning point in a game.

This post has been edited by Strayfah: Dec 6 2008, 02:18 AM

The reason why it's not 100% is because it involves human interference. The game itself is NOT random, only the player is.

Doesn't matter does it? At the end of the day, something retarded is still possible.

And that'll be due to human error

It's not about who's error is it. The fact that it is possible is already enough. Don't you get it?

Imagine a tiebreaking 7-7 score game and suddenly some nade bounces of all corners and some how ends up at a spot where it is usually safe to run and 4 of your teammates die there.

It's ridiculous.

So why bother playing a game which is 100% confirmed? You mean if my aiming is not as good as yours it's still equal? It's also called gambling. Which is what you do whenever you make a decision. You decide to take path A or Path B. Both are a gamble. How are you to know if the enemy will be down either path? Isn't that randomness?

So if i throw my nade at a pole, i'm choosing to gamble in the hopes that my nade will hit the pole and GO into the window thus pwning the guy who thinks it's totally random. No, it's a low chance, but it i'll take it anyways.

Take a deck of cards. 52 cards in a deck. What are the odds of an ACE of SPADES coming out. 1 out of 52. Is that randomness? No. That chance still changes as more and more cards are removed. It's called betting against the odds. By training, i lessen the odds of something random happening.

So if i shoot between 4 poles at something 2 pixels wide and KILL someone with a headshot but i only do it 1 out of 500 times, isit random? or isit skill? I mean, hell those CS players must be all geniuses.

---

Added on December 6, 2008, 3:01 amI wish people would think out their logic a bit further before writing it down. I can easily refute your logic because it doesn't make sense. Most of the things i have mentioned are very common abstract thinking methods which i'm sure tequila is aware of. It happens all the time. So if i suspect someone is behind a wall and i spray the guy and he dies... is that random, or intuition? The odds say that by using a RPD and spraying in a random direction on backlot in a 12 on 12 game i'll hit someone eventually. Is that randomness? Or isit chance? or isit math? or what?

---

Added on December 6, 2008, 3:04 amOh and in reference to your 7-7.

I'd like to say this. Shit happens. Why was your team there in the first place? Didn't you guys train enough to prevent that sort of thing happening? Isn't that what Teq is talking about when they mean professional? I mean seriously, the fact is that if it's 7-7 means that both team are equal, and just because you can't do it doesn't mean someone else can't. I thought some areas of backlot were safe from nades until i got naded there. First thing i did was ask how they did it. And they told me. And i was like "shit i didn't know that."

This post has been edited by Sanction: Dec 6 2008, 03:04 AM

Nothing is 100% confirmed. All I'm saying is that we should minimize the possibility of something like that to happen.

It's your choice if you're going to take that chance. But if you have the intention of blowing him up inside, it's a different story. Because you actually practice which makes it possible. I'm talking about doing the unpractical.

No doubt things like these happen but it should be kept at a minimal because if you keep dying like that, I don't think anyone would enjoy playing this game competitively because it's way too unpredictable.

And what I was giving was a scenario. It can happen to any other team.



Bro, do you get what I mean by random? I don't think you do. You prepare and train to avoid something predictable. If shit like that happens, who would know? 4 of us go to a cover which somehow was breached by a nade. Who would've expected that? Either you're contradicting your own points or you don't really understand what I'm talking about.

And you say I don't make sense...

This post has been edited by Strayfah: Dec 6 2008, 03:13 AM

Ok, so what you're saying is he just randomly throws a grenade in the air and blows up a guy by accident, or 2 or 3. Can you prove that it was a random toss? Why do people throw grenades? To kill someone.

Lets assume that your scenario.
Some guy throws a random grenade in the general direction of your team. The grenade bounces off a window sill, into a pole and off the side of the helly which just allows it to roll 1 foot into the doorway facing away from the enemy!! his grenade entered the doorway backwards.

I'd say, OMGWTFPWNBBQ.

Anyways, It's 3:10 AM. I'm going to bed, i have work tomorrow. I understand your point and what you wish to do but it's impossible to eliminate "Random" behaviour in the game. Teq should know. he was there with me in SG. I knifed 2 guys tagging together with AKs blasting at me. I was effective stock perking with SP. Now, everything i did was by instinct with no preset movement, isn't that pretty random already, in the same way i cannot calculate how they are going to move or how i'm going to move. in that way yes, it's gone beyond random and into the realm of chaos theory. One of these days i'll show you on a piece of paper what i mean by random. Hope to see you soon guys, cheers.

Sanction

its 3AM AND THE FIRES IS STILL ON!!!!(light my ciggs...)

I understood what you said. My point is this. The situation you just pointed out has happened a billion times in a games AND in REAL life. It is an aspect BEYOND the control of machines and humankind alike. A machine could probably calculate the probability to a billionth of a decimal but humans can't therefore while the scenario where the nade breaches your cover then blows away your team only happens 1 in a million times. It's bound to happen.

I'm sorry about the two sentences which i meant as sarcasm. It was just something grating when people like TEQ keep spouting that since we don't go PROMOD we're not good enough =) Oh wait, now you know how the rest of the people feel. I hope my point is made.

---

Added on December 6, 2008, 3:18 amAnwyays, good night again. Work in the morning....

This post has been edited by Sanction: Dec 6 2008, 03:18 AM

Instincts come with experience and skill. Randomness comes from luck.

They blend to make the sweetest of kills. But if you're talking about some random prenade which eliminates an entire team due to its weird landing, I'd say it's nothing to do with instincts. (Note random nade meaning the thrower himself never knew of such a thing and not intentional) I'm sure some of us experienced it before.

And yeah I think I've had enough for the night as well, good night.

Pixy you should go sleep as well

This post has been edited by Strayfah: Dec 6 2008, 03:22 AM

Working on my stuffs lah cb xD

Last post, i swear, this convo is interesting. Yeah i know what you mean. I tossed a nade into the air and some random guy died. Happens all the time on pub in Wetworks. I wasn't aiming for him. And i didn't expect to kill anybody but he was unlucky.

But your nade tends to kill RealApple.

there is 1 thing i want to voice out long time...dont u think this arguement is endless??no matter how u guys argue the consequences is almost the same.Is Malaysia decisions whether which mod we will be playing..so i feel is kinda waste of time keep on argue-ing the same shit all over again...
Edited:We have our own rights to choose what RULESET that we are playing!~

This post has been edited by nightmarej4ck: Dec 6 2008, 03:33 AM

Our arguement progresses you see .

We're not arguing about which mod to play. We're arguing about randomness

It's good to have a debate once in a while. Keeps the mind active. Good for stoned people like you lah Pixy

lol..but i feel like related to it lor xD

It is related in a way. But at least we're not asking for an immediate change anymore. It's for the people to decide

I don't mind either mod. I just can't stand dying to random nades. God bless DAMN for nerfing the distance a nade can travel.

This post has been edited by Strayfah: Dec 6 2008, 03:44 AM

Drebin:Endless Proxies Wars xD

Hey, Just a small player but reading this thread makes me amuse by the topics u guys drag on. U guys think is funny when u guys are not making things more competitive. In competitive gaming things are suppose to be balance. Or else why would company like blizzards cover the bugs and balance the races in their patch. Well no one likes to play a game with a "IMBA" hero or imagine u playing cs with someone that basically have 90 life and when he lands on the floor he can kill u with a de with "one hit"? Last stand

You all shouldn't make a ruleset that is only playable in your own country. What if a team hits big time in the country and train on the PAM 4.02 Ruleset which is not recognize. So being malaysia's number 1? and nothing outside..
well in DOTA malaysian team dint made thier own map with thier own skills and stuff. Is a good community i understand. But shouldnt we get a international ruleset and fix the whole thing to a better competitive gaming community. moving towards the cs way of competitive gaming is not wrong, can anyone actually deny that cs is one sided or anything is more on real skills that a gamer imbued to themselves in the hardwork, dedication, passion to the game.

Well im really sure we all wanna see a malaysia team up on the grand stand playing with maybe eG or Pandemic who knows.. As the known person in this community here in malaysia, You all should at least take courtesy to make this dreams happened.. Thats why a team top here it could be nothing out there from what all we have seen and experience in the WCG in Singapore this year only RVG manage to make to the fourth place. I'm not discriminating. But sorry, we don't really want that to happen anymore, in the mere future of this gaming community. who would even want that?

Making a united ruleset in a gaming community pushes us further to the international standard. instead of stuck here and hardly anyone will be known internationally in this case, we are suppressed under a different ruleset that is fixed by you. No clan can be perfect in two ruleset at the same time. If u guys would really prefer to be suppressed under this rule created it will be really pointless to continue playing in competition in national standards where the real gamers is absence. All gamers wants to be the top not at national levels that is.

This post has been edited by Unwind: Dec 6 2008, 04:00 AM

If you stand at pixel A, aim at pixel B and toss a grenade, and that grenade always lands at pixel C, then there is no randomness.

If you stand at pixel A, aim at pixel B and toss a grenade, and that grenade doesnt always land at pixel C, then there is some randomness.

Didn't play much COD4, but you guys seem confused in your arguments about randomness occuring or not, with one blaming on human error, and another, or in-built randomness.

Simple test, get a mod with infinite grenades, line up a target, and use your KEYBOARD to toss grenades non stop. If all grenades land on the same spot, = no randomness. If they scatter, Random! This test however, will be upset if there is scope drift even in nading mode, in which case, there should be pattern to the scattering if there is no randomness, and no detectable pattern if there is.

1. In the occasion there is absolutely no randomness, then with great practice can come great accuracy. Something we call pixel-shot in BF2. This IS a skill.

2. In the occasion there is randomness in the scattering of objects and prjectiles, then I would say that some things will be based on luck, and not skill. and screw ups can, and will happen. This gives a chance to the "less-pro" to suddenly get lucky and win the "more-pro" and not be totally dominated. Friendly for newbs.

In the occasion there is no randomness, but a persistent scope drift, we again have two categories:
If scope drift is random movement = refer to no.2

If scope drift is a fixed cycle = refer to no.1


Of course, as a programmer, I can always say there's no such thing as a real random number, but... whatever ^^

Picked a pixel shot vid from Youtube if you wanna see one ^^
Pixelllsss!

This post has been edited by RahXeph0n: Dec 6 2008, 04:21 AM

Omg, thank you.

You've managed to put hit the proverbial nail on the head. The game itself does not suffer from a "random" engine but human "error". The unlimited grenade thing is perfect, if tossed at an angle against the wall the nade will nearly always hit the same spot. =)))

Then again I did make the point of shit does happen. I don't believe in randomness, i believe in odds. Once it passes beyond the point of human comprehension it appears random.

Oh hi! I was just wondering since you guys are debating this problem, can you help me out with something? What happens when an immovable object meets an unstoppable force?

Is this one of those, "If a tree falls down in a forest but there is no one around to hear it, does it make a noise?" questions?

A lot of things are associated with luck but luck is not random, it is an intangible effect on what you do in every situation.

Random is a calculated measurement out of an array of values. Each value MAY have a different effect. Randomizing just means shuffling the effects between each other until one is selected. If you try to nade a spot 10 times, but you only hit it once, its not random. It means you have a 10 % chance of hitting that spot with your current settings/environment.

Luck on the other hand, is not calculated. It happens whenever you do not plan something to occur. This maybe related to anything in game from a stray shot to an unprecedented jump or grenade. All this will never happen in a game, since luck is an intangible value.

Randomization is the alternative to simulating such effects in a game, where a player/user may feel he was "lucky" but in actuality the value or effect that occured was actually a precalculated logic simulating that effect.

Compensation aids in reducing such effects, where most gamers would control their fire by moving the mouse while spraying their rifles, for example. There will be strays from time to time, but if it kills, its not random, its luck. Despite his efforts to control his rifle, the bullet strays off his target but kills his opponent who CHOSE to move from point a to point b while engaging him.

If you're trying to make a game that isnt "random" that means everything has a predefined value, which means damages are always a set number, example a monster always does 10 damage to you so long as it hits you. Even if you set and array to 2 numbers, means 1-2, so long as the user has direct control of these values, its not random. If you see what is written in the game engine or files for COD4, nothing is random, they are calculated/predefined values. They may be however, imbalanced in terms of damage or speed. Modders may infact cause the engine to malfunction if they do not know or understand how these codes work. Therefore, whatever bug they find, may be a bug they caused by changing certain values.

The perception of random is different from each person, so what may seem random to you, may seem like luck to another or skill to somebody else. This topic really doesnt need to be argued, since all games have a coded randomizer (mathematical formulae used to process these values) to continuesly keep things going.

Anyway, back on topic, if you have any suggestions, just go for the team leader meeting.

Of course not silly ! The tree does make a noise!

You haven't answered my question!

DA u do know that impossible. both things are contradicting each other.
same goes as the story of the spear and the shield

the shield seller claims that this shield can block any strongest spear in the world.and the spear seller says that his spear can break throught any shield.

so one guy steps up and ask so wad happen if i take your spear and pierce through his shield. who wud win?

i wud say words sre useless unless tests runs on diff methods to determine which has the better pro's and con's ^^

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Added on December 6, 2008, 10:42 amlol at sanc hahahaha~

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Added on December 6, 2008, 10:44 amp.s i've tested the DAMM mod. so replica of cs. carb avaliable on sas and ak only avaliable on spetz. lolx

and the menu accesible on gun selection it's soooooo cs style where number of guns and eq's are displayed hahahah~~~ very reminds me of cs days. ^^

This post has been edited by AeonStrife: Dec 6 2008, 10:44 AM

Use the Force.

You get a DA.

i have a DA mouse ei. i duwan a live DA pestering me with sheebaiiiiii over vent LOL~

You Sir, w1n!

sorry double post XD

This post has been edited by AeonStrife: Dec 6 2008, 11:39 AM

dude... if u want someone to explain u about "random variables" do u want my maths lecturer's cell number?
Come on... wateve la that bouncing imbawtfpwnbbq nade kiled those guys.
Doesnt mean just because of that u have to change it.
we will adapt fairness.
Blast radius watever...
doesnt matter...
Where does it end?
Is the new mod of cod4 is gonna be like a PONG game?
everything predictable.
Dont give stupid excuses.
Nothing is ever surely gonna happen.

If u guys really really really hate the mod, then why dont just go work for activisionblizzard and create a new game after your name?

Just stop it.
Dont try to be what u cant be or wat u cant do.

JUST PICK SOMETHING AND DEAL WITH IT!

CoD4 does have its randomness. Does anyone realise you don't actually run 100% straight in the game? :S Hence nades do get random. Trust me on that one.

Heres what you do. Try to find a straight line in the game. Walk as far as possible with ur mouse aligned to the other end of it without using your strafe buttons.

lol. You'll get what I mean.

It's fun actually, you should go try lol. srsly no joke.

I'd rather play CS:Source. Although I haven't tried teh mod. Mod up in ProZone please.

Really not my business, but just thought you guys might wanna weigh it out. Sometimes, adding randomness into a game breaks it's competitiveness. I won't deny it makes things more relaxed, as the learning curve of a game with many random outcomes will plateau at an earlier point than a game with less random variables that will reward Precision.

But it doesnt always. Take for example, FPS on consoles vs FPS on PC. Console FPS usually have more random modifiers thrown in, because game developers know you will never (or almost never) have the precision of a mouse in PC FPS games, but console FPS (Halo, etc) are thriving still. WHY? Because the game designers will compensate for the lack of innacuracy by increasing (or decreasing) game pace, size of maps, and game modes, damage to hp ratio, etc.

So the real question is, is COD a Console game, ported to PC, or a PC game ported to Console? It can't be both, and be competitive on both platforms. The mod chosen for competitive play on the PC, internationally as well, should weigh this question IMO.

BTW I assumed you guys were talking about PC-gaming. heh.

And Crashtec, perhaps I should have used the term 'pseudo-random', but anyway, I'm sure you get what I mean ( =

haha, COD4 is a console to PC ported game i believe. As the console version came out first. Also certain elements were removed to add the mods segment in the game.
The problem with the modders is that they have different ideals, where PAM wants to build a competitive mod where maintaining as much "stock" of the game as possible, where as DAMN wants to strip down the game to the extent everything will be stock.

What this dies down to is now the community is split between 3 mods, PAM4, promod and the new DAMN mod.

Also another problem with these modders is that they are competiting on almost every platform/game title, for example, DAMN is on both COD4 and COD5, same goes to promod and PAM4. This problem is no longer local and with this i foresee more turbulent times ahead for the community so long as they do not agree on the elements of the game, the communities will suffer.

wtf is ^ talking about

pam4 merely adds customability and allows modification, I can take PAM4 and make it very much like promod (i.e. no fog, no gunswap, sniperfix, bando and SP only, and remove a lot of weapons from the game) etcetc, it pisses me off when I read your players thinking pam4 mod is your malaysian ruleset. Promod evolved from the pam4 EU ruleset, and is very similar to it. Your PAM4 was customized to your current ruleset and can always be recustomized.

I still giggle when I play your ruleset and see skorpion and last stand allowed. For skorpion, you only need to do a bit of research to find out why it got removed quite fast in international rulesets and last stand, teehee 1 second godmode-transition-but-still-can-kill-people ftw.

anyway, I agree DAMN mod is more cs-like then ever, but before condemning it, I gave it a whirl with a few scrims, and meh it's okay, I don't like that weapons are somewhat inaccurate now, as well as a few bugs that needs to be fixed, but at the end of the day my preference of play is promod > DAMN mod > malaysian ruleset > pub play

anyone claiming your ruleset is competitive is a joker, your ruleset as a whole is shackling your community's skill level, we scrimmed holyboys team on malaysian ruleset SnD backlot and strike TWICE each map, and promod backlot and strike, and we only lost one side of backlot malaysian ruleset. Not to mention we went to Sunway cyber games, and played a ruleset totally alien to us and got 2nd after a close fight. What's the record of Malaysian teams coming to SG? ESP got beat 14-0 and 14-2, but RvG a promod-trained team, got 4th overall.

That being said, if the community wants to continue playing a pub-style competition, then so be it, no point forcing something then your whole community quits, but day by day your detractors grow, and people start to see the light of competitive play.


*p.s. I don't agree with a lot of things in promod and DAMN mod, but end of the day I still prefer playing them, plus as an international standard, I know where my team stands internationally, what point is there in being top of your country only? We're in a connected world, stop limiting yourselves.

This post has been edited by SnapperJR: Dec 7 2008, 07:40 AM

owh,so SG come to lansi with Malaysian people la? Lost respect to JEDI edi, respect them bcoz they can get 2nd in "alien" rule sets pf malaysian, then come to our forum to talk lansi? Haiz..

Brudda, it's the individuals who are talking not the clans...

EDIT: Plus it's a discussion!

This post has been edited by DeathAdder: Dec 7 2008, 01:33 PM

What's the difference? Yes it is a discussion, but do discussion need to insult a country that has own rule sets to play? Are you guys lacks of teams so want Malaysia which has much much more teams than SG to help support their so called Asian rule sets and ask us to play Promod and DAMN mod as well?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, correct? If Anwar says he thinks SG should become part of MY, does it mean the whole of Malaysia thinks the same?

I'm not trying to fight with you bro!

This post has been edited by DeathAdder: Dec 7 2008, 01:47 PM

It's not a request. It's stating points. People like you wouldn't understand anyway. What he said was based on facts so I don't see anything wrong with it.

Let me ask you something, have you played anything else besides the Malaysian ruleset? You'll get why it improves your game so much more.

And he never said "JOIN PROMOD OR DIE". You still have a choice.

This post has been edited by Strayfah: Dec 7 2008, 01:50 PM

Knock it off man, you're being too sensitive already. Hes trying to give some example and you just shoot him off like that. At least listen to what he is trying to purpose then only start evaluate what he said and you can do whatever you want.

Is that the truth? then what is http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/867785 <-- this? Is that what he trying to say.

Seriously I dont mind to play ALL the fking mods, but the way hes stating point is wrong. u know what i meant

This post has been edited by goliathus: Dec 7 2008, 01:59 PM

Chill man, tolerance is the key to a peaceful community.

Remember your pendidikan moral? Mesti mengamalkan nilai toleransi.

Did you even read the link he posted? He's trying to set up an Asian community with no mods fixed yet. It can be PAM4, Promod or also DAMN:MW.

Stop being so touchy please.

yea got this from the link he posted.. read atleast..



This post has been edited by themarksman: Dec 7 2008, 02:54 PM

back to basic~
wuts the whole purpose of mod? O__o

To make the game more competitive? And remove the unwanted perks or guns, tweak, modify?

I'm only stating it to make a point, the scrim and tournaments happened weeks and MONTHS back respectively but you didn't see me boasting/crowing about it, we didn't make public any news on that. The purpose was not to say malaysians are noob or whatever, my purpose in my message is my sincere belief that your ruleset is shackling your players skill, and thus not allowing them to get "better" at CoD4, and I stated facts as to why I believed as such, and so has tequila, a well-respected CSS competitive player. If tequila, a malaysian, can say that he has not seen much progress in terms of skill levels in teams, then you definitely got something to worry about.

I mean it's not like I joined your tournaments and shouted "ESP NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOBS" right? lolololol, just a side-joke at that one.

This post has been edited by SnapperJR: Dec 7 2008, 03:17 PM

WOW ~ sound aiming some 1...... why have to talk about sg or malaysia team?? we are so near to each other!! every team is just try to make the game better, no matter you feel right or wrong just keep it for yourself as a views lar !!

What the point that you guys argue at here ???? we had a general meeting for COD4 rules at 20 DEC right ???? so why dun you guys note it what you want to say and say it out IN FRONT OF EVERY 1 ELSE .....

p.s. stop making some sensitive topic here lar ... make alot of fire

This post has been edited by dumb: Dec 7 2008, 04:37 PM

dumb.. If I may call you that. Who are you? Identify yourself. What clan are you from? Who do you represent?

I would really like to know. We are close to each other yes but they can't help us if we don't work out a lot of stuff here. The game is as close as dead here because there isn't enough daily competitive activity seen.

You don't form a clan and wait around for stuff to happen. Even if you train on a weekly basis is good enough and make sure its to fix something. No one should train prior to a tournament. No active clan does that.

The problem is that, I see alot of this going on here and its hard to call anyone but the usual guys for a scrim. Maybe the others are too busy with life or they just couldn't be bothered.

This means there is really lack of support for the competitive community in CoD4. Now I want everyone okay? Everyone to stand up and start thinking even before that meeting on the 20th.

What is your goal for the clan or team you are in?
How can you make yourself the best of what you can be?
Where do you need to go to start?
Who do you need to play amongst to get that exposure?

We're playing amongst ourselves having fun while missing out a lot on whats happening out there. Don't you want to make it big?

Sure our community is getting bigger and bigger but we can not relate to other communities worldwide. Hence we can't compete with them either. Its very irrational to lock ourselves up here thinking we're doing okay but in the end we're just playing amongst ourselves and it ain't going to be so fun anymore soon.

I support the game. I support the community. I however, do not support the way we are playing this game competition-wise. We should push towards playing and competing in a unified global ruleset so we do not miss out on whats to come, when it comes. Whenever we see an opportunity given take it and don't look back.

We gots to do this people. Or we're gonna be out of a game to play and its back to 1.6 for the most of you.

haha, you just did.

LOL true...hahaha

PS: again i apologize....... =X