Called Maybank CS and confirmed that they have received my Ikhwan application (included the faxed top up version) and starting to process.

credit limit of 200k?

Wow ! How about the annual fee then ?

Hi everyone was just noticed this thread recently and thought I share a recent experience with you guys.

Recently I was unfortunate enough to experience a theft of my credit card and the card was used before I realized it, hence I was not able to block it. It was a financially painfull experience but out of this experience, I got to know some information which will hopefully be a part of your consideration when choosing your credit cards.

In a nutshell, I lost 2 cards, one belonging to HSBC, and one belonging to Citibank. HSBC detected the usage of my card and called up to ask if I had used my card to transact a large sum. I mentioned no and thanks to their quick action, they called up the merchant and they manage to stop the transaction. That saved me a large sum of money.

On the other hand, my experience with Citibank was totally diffrent. When Citibank called me up to ask if I had used my card, I replied no. I asked them to immediately call the merchant and cancel the transaction. They refused and gave all sorts of excuses like

- We don't know where's the merchant
- We don't know the number
- The guy may have left by now

And instead of helping me out, they just insisted on asking for my information as to where to send my new replacement card to. It was a pretty fustrating experience and as a result, I now have a dispute with them.

As part of my dispute, I have highlighted to them that I told the person who called me on that day, to call the merchant and try to cancel it, but the person flat out refused to do so without even trying. They have refused to look at this point and have made me fully liable for it. I recently met up with Citibank's fraud department manager and I picked up the following during our conversation:

- Diffrent banks have diffrent policies when treating these kind of cases (Notes: this is the answer given to me constantly whenever I asked why no attempt to call was made. I hazard that it implies that diffrent banks may have diffrent processes when hit with these cases and may include whether or not they will try to call)
- She claimed that the merchant may sue them if they called the merchant to cancel the transaction!



Summary
After the incident, I asked a number of banks, if it is possible to block any transaction above a set limit (e.g RM200). All banks responded that they can only call the card holder if they detected a transaction more than RM200. They CANNOT block the authorization of the transaction. Hence, if your card is stolen, and someone used it to transact a certain amount and the bank did not or is not able to stop the transaction, you will very likely be held liable for that amount (especially if it is a large amount and depending on the situation and circumstance of how you lost it etc) and you will have to dispute it with the bank or go through the FMB.

From the point above, the varying ways and processes in which a bank handles the situation at the moment of fraud, will really make a diffrence and should be a very important consideration point when choosing a credit card issuer. Clearly HSBC was better in handling the situation, at least they made an attempt to call and block the transaction while Citibank did not even try, resulting in my money being lost.



Dear friends, I'm not writing this as a person disputing a transaction with Citibank. I'm writing this because I feel that discrepencies in handling of these cases between banks, makes a huge diffrence for us card holders. It may seem diffrent banks have diffrent ways of handling these cases and may include whether they will call the merchant or not (especially if the merchant is tied with another merchant bank). I hope none of you have to go through what I went through. But when push comes to shove, it's good to know whether your bank will help you, or just keep quiet and let your money slip away. The feeling of knowing, at that moment of time that your card had been used, and the bank totally refuses to help you, is a really depressing feeling. Hope you choose wisely on the bank your credit card is tied to, not just by looking at the rewards or benefits, but at the security and how the bank handles or protects it's card holders during moments of crisis.


I'd love to hear your opinions as well as a card member of both of these banks, i'm sure there are differing experiences. I could not include all the info here, so if you guys need additional info, I'd be glad to oblige.


Edited: Corrected some points and statements

This post has been edited by perror: Nov 9 2008, 11:17 PM

perror, they are actually correct.
However your case with Citibank, I think you can dispute the amount and not pay for it albeit a lengthy process because of the bank's policy.
Reason being your call is been recorded and you have specifically in that call denied the transactions and request them to stop it.

Good luck in your dispute. But if it doesn't go your way, write to BNM regarding your case and CC Citibank. That would most of the time forces banks into pressure in responding to BNM.

How to set amount to let bank call us if exceed?

Let say i set the limit for every transaction to 250

I doubted that they would do that or even be able to do that.
Most of the time they can set parameters for a "set/group/segment" of customer under the same feature. But I don't think they can do it individually.
Imagine a bank with a card base of 1million and they need to set up parameters for all 1million individually and call these customers individually upon hitting the specific amount. So if the amount is small enough and didn't trigger the "parameter" they wouldn't even notice as we're talking about monitoring tens thousands of transactions per day.

This post has been edited by b00n: Nov 7 2008, 02:22 PM

Hi b00n, thanks for your info. If you don't mind may I request you elaborate more on that?

I'm planning to push the dispute over to BNM and the FMB. It's gonna be a lengthy process but that's allright. I hope that forcing them to respond to BNM not just in regards to my dispute but to pressure Citibank to seriously look into this. It's not so much about the money, but about the people who are holding Citibank cards who may be at risk if the treatment extended to them is the same as they extended to me.

There is such a huge contrast in the way both banks handle the situation. In both of these cases, neither of those banks were the merchant bank to the merchant (as far as I know) but HSBC was successful in blocking the transaction. For me, if Citibank had even tried to do it, rather than just flat out refusing, at least that would have been something. My constant emphasis to them was "If you don't try, how would you know?". In the case of the Citibank transaction, the fraudster was there for 1 hour after the transaction occured. I'm sure that within 1 hour, they could have acomplished something.

Just hoping to raise the awareness that we carry a liability in our pockets with credit cards, despite the convinience and the major inconvinience if we are unlucky enough to lose it. It's something that really has to be taken care of.

In the mean time, the reason for sharing my experience is for those who are considering Citibank cards, or those who have Citibank cards, do take good care of the card. I wouldn't count on them if push comes to shove. Whether or not this is how they handle all fraud cases, I am not sure, but if I have any new info, I'll update this thread.

tachlio, you can call the customer service up and tell them to set the limit. They will not call you to authorize the transaction. It will still go through. Just that they may call you if the transaction amount exceeded the amount you specified. (b00n, perhaps you can correct me if I am wrong?)

On the other hand, I am also thinking of getting a debit card that's tied to an account with only small amounts of cash (maybe RM500). Hopefully that should help limit loses in the case the card is stolen. What do you guys think about this?



Edited: Changed first paragraph to reflect I intend to push the case to have BNM and Citibank to seriously look into this matter on how they handled my case and whether this is how they always handle fraud cases, rather than imply it is their policy. Same with paragraph 4.



This post has been edited by perror: Nov 9 2008, 10:54 PM

The purpose of credit card is to give you credit, i believe by setting a limit, it just defeats its purpose.

Furthermore, this will increase the workload of banks worker.

Can you imagine if your credit card unable to swipe because the bank personnel forgot / didn't call you up for the confirmation?

Hi keith_hjinhoh, really agree with you on that. I guess it's a once bitten twice shy thingy on this which is why I'm kinda like looking at alternatives that limit the exposure in addition to being extra carefull.

I think this is an excellent topic which I've brought up before but should definitely be on the front page b00n.

BNM issued guidelines in 2003 that limits consumer liability in cases of fraud to only RM250. See the actual document here, page 123 has the guidelines.

http://www.bnm.gov.my/files/publication/ar...box_banking.pdf

However I've read places including this blog post from CAP

http://lanaibeach.blogspot.com/2005/09/i-am-out-52.html

that the guidelines are simply guidelines and cannot be enforced. I think consumer protection in Malaysia is pathetic, banks don't seem to give a flying f*** about their customers and the govt through BNM isn't helping. Doing away with the 20-day interest free period was one such thing, only the banks are making money out of that particular ruling.

Anyway what I suggest is that we should pool some experiences together so that at least we as consumers are aware of:

1. our rights according to the law (if any)
2. our legal recourse if something goes wrong
3. individual experiences with banks

perror thanks for bringing this up!

---

Added on November 7, 2008, 2:50 pmHere's my individual experience. I had Maybank call me one time stating that they detected fraudulent transactions on my Maybank credit card. They did not state the details but immediately cancelled the card and issued me a new one.

At this point I'm not sure which card I should use. I stopped using Citibank simply because I didn't trust them enough and perror's experience is an example of that. I occassionally use my MBB Visa but I'm almost exclusively on Amex right now because of good experiences in the US with Amex, however Amex in Malaysia is handled by Maybank...


This post has been edited by tishaban: Nov 7 2008, 02:50 PM

@perror

Most of the forumers here have mentioned HSBC as one of the better cards in town, glad there's one extra example already.

Sorry to hear about your case and yes most of the folks here have experienced a hit and miss with their Citibank cc. I used to have a good impression about them but all that changed when their staff fraudalently applied extra cards for me which I did not appreciate. Good that someone acknowledge the mistake but they are bad @ fixing the damages.

Hi tishaban, you're most welcomed. You're right that consumer protection really leaves a lot to be desired.

I second the idea that perhaps we can have a pool or place where we can share our experiences with the banks, probably from the aspect of how they handle cases like that (i'm sure others may have differing experiences), security and customer service. Just my 2 cents, for me I'd be willing to pay annual fees for a credit card if I know the bank is trustworthy and can be relied on especially on times like these. For me right now after going through this, things like reward points, the annual fee waiver etc takes a back seat.

Like tishaban mentioned, consumer protection is poor in this country, and if we know which bank is good, and will do the right thing (e.g helping to call the merchant when a fraud occurs or when push comes to shove, or at least try), then that would be a really good piece of information to have. I would certainly use that info prior to applying for another credit card.

Perhaps having a pool or a place to share will allow forum readers to have a source of info as part of their decision making? After going through my experience, and going through so many pages of others who have had similar experiences, it seems like when a card holder is unfortunate enough to be hit with this, he/she is pretty much left to his own devices to sort it out.

In regards to the RM250 max liability, I actually had a friend who lost his maybank card and the fraudster used 9k to purchase some handphones. He was not aware of the transaction until the statement came. Maybank held him fully liable and he took it to the FMB. FMB sided him and the result was that he is only required to pay RM250. 1 month later, Maybank wrote back indicating their management is not agreeable to that decision, and requires that he pay 50% of it. Not sure how it turned out but I guess I can find out.

Hi hye, I used to have pretty good impression about Citibank too, at least until now.



Off topic a bit: I asked HSBC's fraud team, if the merchant was using a mechant bank other than HSBC (e.g RHB or MBF etc), will they call up the merchant if the card holder confirmed during the call that he did not authorize the transaction. The person mentioned that they will try to obtain the merchant info and do their best to cancel it.

@perror
To elaborate more, banks are dealing with consumer markets which is mass market. There's lots of card holders in their bank. So it would not be feasible for them to set account by account basis on the limit one requested to pop up as possible fraudulent transaction as it is hard for them to keep track on the various limit set per account too.

Usually they would have a parameter set up for all cards which if the transaction is over whatever amount, a screen would pop up and they would need to verify like what they did with you in both cases. Or some system would have parameters smart enough to detect out of norm transactions, and either way they might or might not call the customers depending on the bank's policy in regards to that. I guess you've got the information from some banks that some would stop the transactions and some would not upon confirmation; that is because of their internal policy, nothing much we can do about that but to complain on it.

However in your case where if Citi ask you to pay back the amount which on the phone you've denied, you would have a high chances of winning it. Especially when HSBC had done it. It is their policy not to stop the transactions thus it's their policy for them to take it as fraud losses.

But one thing to look out is on the T&C which is the tricky part. Did you report the card lost in 24hrs and inform the banks? They would use that as a shield that it is stated in the T&C. If you have done that, than no worries on your case. Just provided sufficient prove to BNM attached to your complain letter and let BNM dealt with Citi.

So far, I have a good impression towards HSBC in handling the transactions. whenever there is a huge transactions going on in HSBC they will contact me. Even I make a small amount transaction in internet shopping, they will call to confirm. Meanwhile, Citibank and Maybank, hehe, no call from them except asking for payment or promoting their products/3rd party products.

Currently I just keep my Citibank/Maybank at home and take HSBC out, at least, I feel it is safer when my wallet suddenly **** (touch wood)

Hi b00n, thanks for your insights, that was really informative I guess differing banks have differing policies. Really appreciate the point you made in regards to their policies and how it should be viewed. Will certainly try to drive it in. In my case, the card was stolen from me and I was not aware of it. So it was used before I managed to report that it was stolen.

May I ask when you refer to BNM, would that mean that I write directly to BNM or I go via the FMB?

Hi takky, I also was reading another thread in this section of the forum regarding stolen cards. The forummer also kept the card at home, but someone broke in and stole the cards and used it, or something to that effect. Can't really recall the exact details. Maybe not so safe to keep the cards at home or perhaps block it temporarily until you need it? Not sure if this is possible though.

Yes, you can direct to BNM complaint department and CC Citibank.
I can't see the PDF in my office, might be because of different version of Adobe. Maybe you can see, it's from http://www.bankinginfo.com.my/_system/medi...g_complaint.pdf
Another one from the same site:
http://www.bankinginfo.com.my/04_help_and_...ntPrefLangID=1& which includes a complain form format.
An old press release from BNM - http://www.bnm.gov.my/index.php?ch=8&pg=14&ac=276&lang=bm hope the address doesn't change

http://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopic=532331

@perror,
I'm just afraid that they would defend themselves by using the excuses that you didn't report.
But anyway, you still have a solid case because the bank (HSBC and Citi) did call you up in regards to the certain transactions. So maybe you should illustrate the initiative that HSBC took in regards to this incident.

Good luck!

This post has been edited by b00n: Nov 7 2008, 07:25 PM

Hi perror

Thanks for sharing us with on your thoughts and I share your enthusiasm to build an information system which provides a good review on the various approach that the bank uses to tackle cc frauds.

Just one thing though .... I'm worried that some smart alert will find a loophole based our information and use it to commit cc fraud. Should be careful though.

And yes ... one of my main criteria in choosing a cc provider now is how good is their service level. I don't really care about promos so much but I want to feel secure whenever I use the card while travelling. So many things can happen and the last thing you want is not being able to pay for anything or you are being frauded.

Just my thoughts ...

P/S Do tell us what happens to your friend & Maybank. I am curious coz as far as I know, the bank can screw up you by messing with your credit history in your CTOS / CCRIS. When that happens then your friends will have a lot of problems with financial institutions when want to apply cc, loans, etc.

This post has been edited by hye: Nov 7 2008, 07:44 PM

Hi hye, most welcomed. Thanks for sharing the same enthusiasm too!:) And thanks for the various information that have come up from b00n in particular the links.

Certainly agree we should be carefull if there's too much information being presented, someone may start to analyze and make certain deductions. Probably we can form a thread or maybe add information to this thread that focuses how good is their service level, without diving overly deep or revealing too much. I'm sure there's a way to strike the balance. Perhaps this could be in addition to the information that's already provided at the front page in addition to the many usefull info already there?

I'll find out more about the case with Maybank, latest update I got is FMB told him to write a letter back and counter with a certain amount, not sure if there's been any progress.

As for me I'll forward my case to the FMB and look through the links from b00n (thanks man!). I'm planning to send a complaint to BNM contrasting the handling between HSBC and Citibank to drive the case through. Would be glad to share it with you guys as the case progress if you all are interested.

P.S: In addition, may I suggest we add in some 'best practices' on how to be carefull and safeguard the cards? I have one from a friend who reccomends that the card be placed with name up so everytime you open your wallet, you can see and be sure the card is your's. I'm sure there are plenty of more good ones:)

Treat it like your own cash.

It's unnecessarily to put card up side down just to show your name, rather you should not let anyone having any chances to touch your wallet.

Whenever you open your wallet or keep your wallet, check if all your cards available.

Rule of thumbs, having 2 different credit card companies, one international, one local. That should be more than sufficient. It's unnecessarily and troublesome to have too many credit cards.